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User Topic: Long Term Affairs - Part 32
atsenaotie
♂ Member
Member # 27650
Default  Posted: 1:14 PM, July 30th (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Hi fnf, always nice to see a post from you.

I do think (and please correct me if I'm wrong) that there would be an element of compassion and an understanding of how this could have happened.

No corrections from me. As I learned to appreciate the demons in FWW's life, and to see the effect they have on behaviors and perceptions I did feel compassion. And once FWW owned her demons and began to work to exorcise them, our relationship improved. But…

While she has learned and practiced new behaviors and perceptions, this is a veneer over the lifetime of maladaptive behaviors. Things today are better, but this is relative to the starting point. The collateral damage to inter-family relationships remains. The pride of the life lived together the first 20 years is still absent. During times of stress the old habits begin to poke through. It becomes very difficult to separate the chemistry from the character after a lifetime.


LTA BS 53
FWW 60
M 1990, dday 10-5-09
Reconciled

Posts: 3967 | Registered: Feb 2010 | From: FL
forgivenotforget
♀ Member
Member # 11053
Default  Posted: 4:48 PM, July 30th (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

ATS - I hope you don't mind but I wanted to copy and paste your boat analogy that I was referring to in my post just in case anyone missed it. It was by far one of my favorite analogies.

Nell asked how I was doing, and I am not sure how to answer. We were going to S & D in November, we have been going to MC the last month or so. I used to use activities I was involved in like gardening and fishing as analogies to explain my struggles with the aftermath of dday. Today it is like my boat. Last fall (about the antiversary of dday), thieves broke in to where I store my boat. They took parts of the engine, the instruments, and caused a great deal of collateral damage. While they were on the surveillance tape, there was no hoping of catching them or any justice. Insurance is never as much as you need, and so I was left doing nearly the entire repair work myself. It took months. I had to learn how to do things, develop expertise in areas I was not familiar with. Some things had to be re-done once or twice to get it right.

Now the boat is repaired, lots of new parts and seems to be working ok. The thing is, when I plan to take it out I feel anxiety. I no longer associate my boat with fun; I associate it with months of work to fix it. When I take it out there is little trust, I worry it will break-down on me offshore. I have towing insurance, and know how to prevent most things and to repair many more, but I am still anxious when I take it out. I worry something will break I cannot afford to fix. I think that I should sell my boat and be done with it before something else bad happens. I am not sure I can ever find comfort and relaxation in my boat again, that it will just be a vehicle from now on, something else to take care of. This is how my M feels.

Thank you ATS for this. Although it is not the case in all stories of R, for many of us "survivors" of a LTA, I do think we never quite feel safe after a FWS has shown us just what they are capable of - at least this is my personal experience.


D-day - 12/23/05 LTA - 8 years.
"Love's a matter of trust and I just want to believe in us." M McBride

Posts: 1901 | Registered: Jun 2006 | From: A tunnel where I'm beginning to see the light
iwantamiracle
♀ Member
Member # 22812
Default  Posted: 8:29 AM, July 31st (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

(WAVING WILDLY)...hello fnf, so so good to "see" you

and i agree with you about ats boat analagy....even for those of us who are not reconciling, but had tried...and taking it one step further.....when that boat continues to break down....its time to get a new boat!!!!

(((tryn)))
(((heart)))
(((honest)))
(((trust)))

....how are all of you?

((((tribe)))


i am taking my life back, one step at a time!!!!!

Posts: 5994 | Registered: Feb 2009 | From: looking for my rainbow
trynhard
♂ Member
Member # 22698
Default  Posted: 8:44 AM, July 31st (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

H&C… you are welcome to take what I know or not. After all, this is always your choice and not mine in any way.

Courage is making a decision and doing it despite all the fears and perceived obstacles.

So many people will tell you after any LTA that it is best to D even if they never experience themselves. I know now that this is a natural reaction. “Nature calls” so to speak. I place the reason behind it as psychological in human.. it is the thing to do.

It is common sense…Healthy is eliminating the evil, the misery, the person in your life who does not treat you fairly, lovingly, keeping vows, keeping love up.. etc.. but also it is about US.

Loving-kindness is human completeness.

We cannot say everything happens for a purpose. Why things happen is ultimately a mystery. Anyone can go on for hours, weeks and months trying to figure out this mystery.

Our capacity to forgive and let go. I am 100% certain and have found this will come naturally when you D. If you seek a new partner, your odds are SUPER high you will find one. Those new feelings that come when you find a new person to love will tromp any past feelings. Although you may have some bad feelings when your memory kicks in… thinking of the past, your heart will get to that final phase of forgiving.. “In the heart”

I also know this too. You cannot change a person. Many people will stay living in fear. Obviously, H&C’s wife by her behaviors. The number one reason all who have gone through LTA’s is we married people who have very little courage. They choose the comfort of us, our good behavoirs.. they cannot tell us what they need effectively so it must be done in secret. Therefore, we must be the ones with courage because that is all WE can control.

To think, we are not to place blame at our own feet is foolish too. All attractive people (I don’t JUST mean physical appearance but hundreds of behaviors) are “that attractive” to a point a partner will not risk losing you. Being attractive is not easy when we are taught from birth behaviors by unattractive parents. LTA are not mistakes like a short A. They are emotional connections. Today, most people don’t really understand the complexities of mature love, real love.. It is endless learning. Our Willingness to put ourselves second, even to risk our life for others. So we learn what is was about us we could not identify how to love properly and be loved properly.. and be courageous to bring on a conflict when love is not being executed properly.

DecimatedHeart – My wife is loving me no she is not asking for a D.. She is not loving me how I want to be loved in some areas. This is not misery but more like awareness. My situation today I think falls in a couple areas.

First, I can judge her as one who never really… “Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and THEY shall be one flesh.” My own feeling say to me my wife is not one flesh. It is a deep sense within ME. I cannot say for sure the reason for my feelings but I suspect they are because of my inner thoughts over this past betrayal or current gut feelings by her current behaviors.

Second, I feel as if today my wife is not behaving attractive enough for me in the area of flirtatious and romance. Yes, she responds very well to my leadership, but fails me in her own initiation. If you read chapter 6 written by Dr. Laura Schliessinger, The Proper Care and Feeing of Husbands, She hits exactly. I can only tell my wife what I want. I cannot change her. A man living in this situation in his life and not having read this book, day to day, in normal daily living not having studied this, That zone so to speak… is ready for an affair.

I think men do things way different than woman although the different ways can achieve the same results. I am working on my own leadership in a different way. I am working on me foremost… during this process time. My W can only change herself, and she can change, people change. It is her choice, not mine.

I have yet to reach the final phase of forgiving. “in the heart”. Yes it is a conflict. The conflict is what I mentioned above. It is within me. The behaviors I do, what I say is that important. It will force a change one way or another, with me and my life or hers. She can meet my needs or not. In a way, I am improving my relationship skills and practicing them on my W for my own future. My goal is to be “that” attractive.

As to address my W’s behavior.. I do and behave in a way so she will on her own take up a reputation to be romantic to me.. that affirmation, we all need not just me. But to most all men, that affirmation is most strong.

I had a chance to implement my own masculinity this past month. An autistic man, now 21, has been roaming our neighborhood these past 3 years unsupervised. Serving on the neighborhood board, I have had the opportunity to understand the bad behaviors this mentally challenged person is doing, not to his own fault. It lies on his care takers. He sneaks into peoples homes, he fakes like he is jumping in front of cars, he has grabbed a woman butt, he picks up dogs without owner approval, he rides his scooter in the traffic, he invade privacy by spends hours in one spot on the sidewalk, he does not filter out when to go home, he wears his pajamas without a shirt, he has hit a girl with his skate board, he has told someone he is going to kill his parents.. and more.

People feared approaching his parents. They felt sorry for their situation which is very hard to conflict this. They just accepted this bad behavior. It was no different then 20 years of me accepting the bad behaviors of my own W. The one man who did have courage to discuss this kids issues ended up with this man’s caretakers getting very defensive, in denial, and lectured. The parent told there child to stay away from this “mean man”, and it continued without supervision, This mentally challenged man cannot filter out is bad behavior. He just went back to invading the privacy of this neighbor.

When this man cussed me, I forced a conflict the parents with courage. I know it was my moral obligation to protect this man. My wife did not approve my decision and what I did. She did not want to rock the boat with a neighbor, especially a family already in a very hard place. My message to his parents.. Your child needs supervision. He is going to harm himself and You have a responsibility to keep him out of harms way. The parent said some very ugly things to me. Society does not understand, “I am a Christian woman and God forgive.. Karma may hit your future grandkids with autism”.. Me, “I want to help and will pay for some supervision so you and your H can get some need alone time.. Allowing a person who needs supervision to roam is not the solution.” And about 10 other things just as ugly.

The results have been good so far. He is staying within acceptable home boundaries and far more supervision. Guess what, they change on their by their own choice. The consequences next will be my making a claim to the Indiana Department of Adult protection. Yes, it will bring these parent more misery.. It will be intentional by me. And they will change or not. If they the Sate cannot change what these parent do, nothing more I can do but allow the possible death of that man to occur. I did my part. It is not manipulation but proper communication.

See.. the moral of the story is for H&C.. Force the conflict and resolution will come. Do it in the most calm, proper way.. and you use the power of the government when needed.

We cannot ever fear to end our marriages no matter the monetary or any reason. We need to bring to finality things that cause us misery.We then achieve "Loving-kindness is human completeness." When we don’t, the next event rolls around and the misery piles on.

"Courage is contagious. When a brave man takes a stand, the spines of others are often stiffened." - Billy Graham

“In the process”… I know H&C is in this phase… I see 7years moved quickly and other here too.. Way too many people than not, I see is a far better place by moving at a good pace. Yes, I too am in this mode but in a far lesser way as I make myself more attractive. There is a huge difference.. my wife responds very positive to the conflicts I bring on. In H&C’s tough stance with his wife, she might also overcome her fear and her spine will stiffen. Should we wait in misery, uncertainty, while no progress is being made? Will it be positive for the good of his M? Who knows what the future will bring, but to act quick is a good thing… with the finality of conflict will come resolution. A mistake I have made many times in my life.. even with my own M.

Courage my friends.. Peace out.

[This message edited by trynhard at 9:00 AM, July 31st (Wednesday)]


Posts: 2636 | Registered: Feb 2009 | From: Indiana
njgal480
♀ Member
Member # 24938
Default  Posted: 11:05 AM, July 31st (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Tryin-

Good to hear from you!

I agree that we as BS have to force the decision after d-day.
The WS involved in a LTA are cake eaters. They want it all.

When I found out about the LTA I kicked my FWH out of the house.
It took me one day to do it.

I was overwhelmed with shock and grief and he saw a side of me that he had never seen before.I was crazed. Throwing his clothes out of the closet as well as throwing his suitcases down the stairs.

There was no question that I forced a conflict!

I told him that day that he could go to the OW!

There was no gray area.

We were separated for 6 months.

He insisted from day one that he that he never loved the OW, that she meant nothing to him. That he loved only me. And pleaded for me to take him back.

I was not convinced. I needed more time to decide. I needed to see his actions in order to trust again.
Lucky for him that he did all the right things in terms of trying to reconcile.

He stopped drinking, got sober, went AA, went to IC and...he went NC with the OW and never contacted her again-not ever.

I guess I was lucky (if any betrayed spouse can call themselves lucky...) because he never wavered. He has continued to show that he is 'all in' for the past 6 and 1/2 yrs. He tells me he loves me all the time, shows me this every day in his actions.

If he ever gave me the impression that he was not 100% into me and 100% committed to saving the marriage I would be out.

I know I might sound like a broken record here on the LTA thread.
But, I know that many of the lurkers and newbies here sometimes get discouraged and worry that there is no chance for R after a LTA.
Or that if you do R there is always a lot of ambivalence on the part of the FWS.

I just want them to know that it can happen. You can reconcile after a LTA.

I think that what naturally occurs is that those that are successfully reconciled no longer frequent SI and do not post.

So, you do not get to hear their perspective.



Me- BS
Him- WH
Long term marriage
D-day- Jan. 2007
5 yr. LTA
Reconciled.


Posts: 3139 | Registered: Jul 2009 | From: NJ
honesttoafault
♀ Member
Member # 27105
Default  Posted: 7:51 AM, August 1st (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage


To think, we are not to place blame at our own feet is foolish too. All attractive people (I don’t JUST mean physical appearance but hundreds of behaviors) are “that attractive” to a point a partner will not risk losing you.

Tryn, I agree to your first sentence in terms of fixing the problems in the marriage. Of course both partners have to work on themselves to make a better marriage and all of us are not perfect. But, again, the decision to have an affair is ALL ON THE WS's shoulders. We were both in the same marriage and the BS did not make the decision to fix the problems by having an affair.

Ironically, for the second part of what you are saying, yes, the WS did risk losing the BS, but in their minds, by keeping it secret, they did not want to lose the BS either. NPD went to elaborate lengths during the "A" for me to not find out. Yes, he risked losing me, but was trying to keep me too.

But, Tryn' I agree 100% we have to become the best person we can be for ourselves. To be more healthy in every way.

Tryn, could you be more specific about what you mean when you say you "bring about conflicts" with your W? Do you mean that you are communicating more things that are bothering you and not just keeping quiet?

NJgal: Thank you so much for all of your support that you give us all the time. You have had a long journey, and I'm so glad that your H was able to make the changes within himself to become the H you deserve.

FnF: It's so good to see you. I agree that it is easier to deal with all the damage that was done with the A if one can "explain" why they did it because of alcoholism of some other problem they had. It doesn't excuse the behavior, but it does give hope to some degree that R is possible if the WS works on themselves.

Then some of us has to get to a point that although we can understand that maybe there were some FOO issues, or PD, or PDtraits that led the WS to have an affair, it doesn't excuse it. For example with my mother, after all these years I have come to realize that she is either BPD or has so many traits that she is 'borderline BPD" (no pun intended) I can understand that this caused a lot of her behaviors, and many she can't help, but the behaviors are damaging to me. I have to back off for my own sanity.

One thing that I have really become aware of is that I don't feel "safe" or "secure" and never really did in all my time with NPD. There were times over our 25 years together (21 married) that I had a false sense of security, but not fully. And deep down that feeling of walking on eggshells to the point of a lot of codependent behavior: if I only act nice enough, do everything he wants, etc, then he won't get mad, then he'll love me etc, was what caused me to be unhappy.

I know that no matter what, I'll never ever feel secure with NPD, even if he D OW. We will never have a true intimate relationship, the kind that I'm realizing everyone wants. Ironically, because we did talk a lot, and shared a lot, more than I did with anyone else, and he showed more concern than anyone else did in my life, I fell for that. But it wasn't enough and will never be enough.

I just want to feel safe and not like if I do something wrong, say the wrong thing etc, the other person will leave. The way my mother withdrew love if she was mad is what NPD does.

I am starting my journey to becoming a better me, for me. It's hard not to fall into old habits.


Posts: 1903 | Registered: Jan 2010
TrustGone
♀ Member
Member # 36654
Default  Posted: 9:57 AM, August 1st (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Hi Tribe,

I loved ats boat analogy and I agree with honest that I will never feel safe with WH#2. Maybe if he would stop drinking (like njgal's WH) we could possibly get to a point of being able to R, but as it stands now he will never be safe. However XWH#1 did quit drinking to stop me from divorcing him 6 yrs into our marriage, but he just replaced it with other things (percription drugs). I tried for years to get him to understand that his lack of affection outside the bedroom was what I needed, but he never could grasp that concept. He continued to have EA with women he met. Of course at the time, I didn't really think it was cheating, but now I know that it was. I thought that as long as he wasn't sleeping with them it wasn't really cheating. I thought his prior drunken ONS's stopped, but really he had just taken that underground as I later found out.

Well my DD28 just got out of prison after 8yrs last week. Luckily she is in another state so I don't have to worry about her showing up at my front door until at least April. She is on parole until then. I cut her out of my life several years ago because she was just mentally toxic to me. She has yet to admit or take the blame for what she did. She continually wrote letters blaming me and then her father for her horrible choices in life. I know that hasn't changed because of a letter one of her cellmates wrote to me last year. Yesterday she called me and the call went to voicemail. She wanted to know if I had her social security card. Of course I don't and she knew that before she called. I knew it was just a way for her to try and get back into my life, but I didn't fall for it and did not return the call. Then she called again last night, I did not answer again. I spoke with WH#2 and agreed that the only way to get rid of her was to call her back or she would just keep calling. I called her and told her I did not have her social security card and then I hung up the phone. Surely the prison does not let them out to find a job without making sure they have a social security card before they release them, but who knows. It still breaks my heart that I have to be this way with my daughter, but she is mental and I am sure prison has not improved her condition. I saw from her letters that it only added to her mental problems. I know this is a horrible thing to say, but I hope she is so institutionalized by now that she does something to get herself back in prison. Society is not safe with her on the outside and she is not safe to herself or anyone she is in contact with. She is very smart and is a cunning manipulator, but she can't function in the real world without a lot of help, and I can't be that help. She asked XWH#1 to let her come live with him, but he also does not feel safe around her and told her no. It makes me feel like a horrible Mother to abandon her and cut her out of my life, but to let her back in as my wise Aunt said would only bring me more misery than I feel now over the situation.

Damn. It sounds like I live a Jerry Springer show gone bad, but it is my life. My friends say I should write a book, but posting things on here is bad enough. Seeing it wrote out in black and white just makes it that much more horrifying to me sometimes.

(((TRIBE)))



BW-50
WH#2-51
M-9 yrs T-11 yrs
4 children-none together
DD#1-9/5/11 LTA 2yrs
DD#2-7/3/12 False R
DD#3-4/29/13 (OW broke NC)
Status: Your guess is as good as mine.

Posts: 2420 | Registered: Aug 2012 | From: Texas
njgal480
♀ Member
Member # 24938
Default  Posted: 10:12 AM, August 1st (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Trust-
I am so sorry for all that you are going through.
It is really so much for one person to bear.
But like Honest said about dealing with her BPD mother. There comes a point when we have to realize that someone is just a very broken, very toxic person and continued contact with them will only hurt us.
We try to continue a relationship with them in the hopes that maybe they will change and maybe contact with us will help them etc. But, in the end it only hurts us.

After d-day I decided that I would take care of myself and sever ties with family members that I felt were toxic.

No contact equals no more hurt. NC works with a remorseless WS and it also works with other toxic people in our lives.

Right now your main concern needs to be your health. You need to stay focused on that.
You can deal with the other stuff once you are healthy again.


Me- BS
Him- WH
Long term marriage
D-day- Jan. 2007
5 yr. LTA
Reconciled.


Posts: 3139 | Registered: Jul 2009 | From: NJ
honesttoafault
♀ Member
Member # 27105
Default  Posted: 10:46 AM, August 1st (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Trust: I am so sorry to hear your news. I can't imagine how hard it must be for you. NJgal is right. Unless your daughter makes major changes within herself, you need NC of as little contact as possible. YOu need to concentrate on yourself and your health. You are in my thoughts and prayers.

Posts: 1903 | Registered: Jan 2010
TrustGone
♀ Member
Member # 36654
Default  Posted: 1:33 PM, August 1st (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Thanks njgal and IWAM. I am trying my best to concentrate on what is best for me right now. I knew she would try and contact me after she got out because she has no where else to go. I am assuming they put her in a half-way house while she is on parole, but I don't know that for sure. All I know for sure is she is not a safe person to be around. I will continue the NC and hopefully she got the message when I hung up that I didn't want to carry on a conversation with her and hopefully will not contact me again. It does not help my guilt as her Mother to have to treat her this way, but I know it is the best thing to do for my own sanity and safety. If she continues to call I will get a RO. I would change my phone number, but it is on all my business stationary and cards and would be a major business expense to have new ones printed, which I can't afford to do right now. I am going to just continue to focus on myself as much as possible for now. I am feeling stronger everyday and hopefully will be returning to the workforce in the near future. That will surely help me not to focus so much on WH#2 or my daughter and help put my focus back on myself more. Thanks again for listening and your kind thoughts and prayers. It really does help. (((HUGS)))


BW-50
WH#2-51
M-9 yrs T-11 yrs
4 children-none together
DD#1-9/5/11 LTA 2yrs
DD#2-7/3/12 False R
DD#3-4/29/13 (OW broke NC)
Status: Your guess is as good as mine.

Posts: 2420 | Registered: Aug 2012 | From: Texas
Blobette
♀ Member
Member # 36519
Default  Posted: 2:02 PM, August 1st (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Hello all, I know I don't post much, but... today is DD + 1 year, sooooo.

I do lurk, and am rooting for all of you. Trust, you've had a terrible time and it must be heart-wrenching to deal with your DD. I can't imagine anything more painful for a parent. A student of mine is currently reeling because she had to throw her (drug-addicted, thieving) son out of the house. It's just horrible. But my heart goes out to so many of you: Miracle, H&C, FnF, Honest, ats...

I thought I'd post, too because of what NJgal said about positive stories -- there aren't many on here. And I sometimes feel bad posting on here because I do have what so many on here dearly wish for -- a remorseful spouse, one who's trying to do the work. Of course, when I post that I immediately feel nervous. I am constantly haunted by the notion that this is all a trick, and I might be wrong. After all, he lied so well for so many years, maybe he still is? In other words, I'm a long way from being truly R'd and I haven't gotten to forgiveness yet. I still have a wall up that doesn't allow me to take it in when he says that he loves me, or really believes anything he does. I'm working on it (and he certainly is), but I'm sure as hell not there yet.

I truly don't think there's any one way of going about this. NJgal threw her WH out. I didn't. That was, I think, the right decision for me. For my WH, being thrown out would have sealed his identity as a loser and cheater -- he would have become that person. (Maybe. Who really knows?) Being at home made him see our DS and think about how much DS would be hurt if he moved out.

So what's changed since DD? WH has a new job, which has taken him away from the OW. Those of you who recall my story know that WH worked out of town one week out of every month (in addition to extensive traveling), which allowed the A to continue easily -- but I think the ease of it all and the establishment of an alternative life was one of the factors that eventually caused his psychotic break, where it all came to a head. He started to see this as a viable alternative, as opposed to a fantasy bubble. Which caused a crash. In any case, once he decided to stay with me, he became one of those Waywards who doesn't look back. He essentially burned his bridges (thank goodness) and totally lucked out with the new job: better paid, more stable, close to home, less travel. And interesting and fulfilling! Meanwhile, his old workplace is a miserable place, from all reports.

The IC part of his work took a while to get going: he's always been averse to introspection -- well, duh. The whole A was one big avoidance mechanism. And now he's really taking this stuff seriously and coming up with thoughts of his own. He finally found a good therapist (after one who wasn't very helpful), and she's really pushing him along. He now will openly admit that he's bad at being empathetic and has problems with feeling others' pain. The best part is that, initially, I felt I was driving the bus, and now I can (somewhat) relax and let him do it.

The struggle then is with me and opening myself up to him again. But that's the next stage, I guess. Am I happy? No way. But I suppose I can see a place where I might be happy again. All of our therapists seem to think we're making good progress -- the marriage counselor actually said he was "sanguine" (funny choice of words) about us.

Our story is so individual that I don't know how much this helps anyone else. I'll end with a sweet thing WH said the other day, on our 25th anniversay: that his anniversary present was that I stayed. I used to feel that he wasn't truly grateful for me, but I really feel that's changed, and he knows that he could have lost me very easily -- and that's reflected in his behavior. Sure, he's hardly perfect and he's not getting everything right. I'm not perfect either. But I am feeling cautiously optimistic.

Good luck to you all.


BS (me): 49
WS: 50
Married: 25 yrs
Kids: 2
OW: Co-worker, 7 yr LTA
DD 8/1/2012, Working on R

Posts: 1036 | Registered: Aug 2012
iwantamiracle
♀ Member
Member # 22812
Default  Posted: 8:53 PM, August 1st (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

((((trust))))

my heart aches for you dear heart, it truly aches.....to say your plate is overflowing is an amazing understatement!!!!

hang in there, take each day as it comes and treat yourself to something that makes YOU feel good whether it be an ice cream cone, a glass of wine or back massage....try to include something everyday .....


honest: keep posting, i think you are turning a corner.....so don't stop now....keep posting and then reading....


blobette: its really good to hear from you.....allow yourself time.......that 4 letter word, time.....

((((tribe))))


i am taking my life back, one step at a time!!!!!

Posts: 5994 | Registered: Feb 2009 | From: looking for my rainbow
njgal480
♀ Member
Member # 24938
Default  Posted: 9:23 PM, August 2nd (Friday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Blobette-
Good to hear from you.
And good to hear that things are going so well.
It does sound as if your FWH is working hard in IC to try to change and become a better person.And, it's great that things are working out with his job too.
As for you being able to trust again-well, that takes time.
As he continues to show you through his actions that he is a 'changed man' that can be trusted you will begin to feel more comfortable.
It took me over 4 years before I began to see the light at the end of the tunnel.


Me- BS
Him- WH
Long term marriage
D-day- Jan. 2007
5 yr. LTA
Reconciled.


Posts: 3139 | Registered: Jul 2009 | From: NJ
trynhard
♂ Member
Member # 22698
Default  Posted: 9:10 AM, August 3rd (Saturday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Honest...
I am starting my journey to becoming a better me, for me.

This is a start.. you make the decision. Execution is the next step. Just do it. The sooner you do, the better for your peace. For so long you accepted it… it is no different the my own history of accepting a type of love that was not really.. Love. My own discover after nearly 5 years of self-evaluation.

We accept others coming home drunk.. we accept others "the list goes on."

Life sometimes is hard. Healthy is that day, no matter how hard.. We eliminate from those from our lives who bring us misery.. like blobette has done with her DD! with courage.

"When you try doing something, you do it with the intention of finding out what will happen when you do it. When you try doing something, you succeed. Your purpose was not to see if you would succeed or fail, but to see if your doing it advanced your cause, helped you to make some progress, or solved your problem. When you try doing something, you are trying to solve a problem."

I happen to think the folks who leave this site and no long post, they do it because they move on. The memory is around, but they easily shift it to something else.. shift it to new thoughts., new adventures, new things and the memory fades.

I know that once H&C eliminates his wife from daily exposure… he will get to peace. He is a man with great morality, a good job, a good nice man. He will find being single is not so bad. If Honest would do the same, then she too would be in the same position. If they both try, and want.. they can have a new partner who will join each other in a happy life together.

Imagine if man like H&C meets a woman like Honest. See, no matter what physical attribute we have, that is not important once you really get to know someone. Sure, physical attract is important too. The inner beauty is that important… if both are attracted because they behave attractive.. the feelings that come with that behavior will almost wipe out the hate, the guilt, the fear, those feeling associated with the bad things that happen to us. You place yourself second and you partner first.

Placing yourself second does means you behave weak. Nobody wants to be in a relationship with a weak person. We must change ourselves because one thing I have discovered… be strong. Yes, if you were the spouse of a LTA, yes YOU had weakness. Look hard at yourself. I don't say this to be mean or ugly, I say it to encourage YOU.... be strong because that is attractive.

I will share about me.. Weakness in my case was placing my job in front of my own wife. It was doing nothing while witness to a man trespassing all over me. Yes, I took my feelings and shifted them to other things, too afraid to conflict my wife… failing myself by not knowing how to fight fair. Failing myself too because I too became unattractive. And yes there is a gender difference and differences depending on the subject. And there are hundreds of behaviors that are attractive.

Perfect? Nobody is perfect. Moods happen. And yes sex is that important in close marriage relationships. LTA’s too. That much sex is a deep emotional connect chemically and mentally. We can accept that our partners had emotion connects for others should we choose to stay married.

So change must happen if you want total peace. Otherwise.. we stay living in misery. Only when you can eliminate that misery can you be at true peace. Forgiving is that important. To behave forgiving.. to act forgiving… to accept.

I had a chance to understand an example of very happy couple who just celebrated their 65th anniversary. They always put the other first. But at the core was this huge factor too… They always and to this day in there 70’s have sex and romance.

Lessons learn I share with the LTA board… Other people react to what WE do. The choices they make are their own choices and yes they can be bad ones or good ones.

Since sex is a major part of all LTA’s… I will touch on it.

I heard on the Dr. Laura show something about gender differences. A man had a crummy day. He comes home and his wife was standing there naked to love him with touch and affirmation, even though she was not in the mood. His feelings then shifted. The woman made herself second.. He was then on top of the world.

A woman had a shitty day. She comes home and her man is naked. She tells him he is greedy, selfish, self-seeking, and gets pissed. Goes and watches Housewives and then to sleep.

I know many people hate Dr. Laura and I understand the reasons.

I say the above because most every married man I know has said the same to me. Even Njgal once told me the woman hold the key to that lock. I also listened to Dr. Jenn. She once told a woman.. “Don’t you know all men want their penis worshiped?” and kinda joke but you can get her point.

My first thought is when I tell my wife this, she reacts in a very negative way… defending her position. I am ok with her position so I look at myself first.

Men think way different than woman. They are affirmed way different.

And for the men… I have had the opportunity to discuss with so many men things that went on in their marriage. One man would have sex, then just roll over. Every time.. all the time. Not much new, not much Varity, not much “building up” starting maybe a day, a week, etc.. those thing we men do when we court but not when we get married. Then you have those men who pile on by squander money.. do drugs.. no morality.. those who have no clue how to build up there woman, affirm their woman… Not attractive yes.
Fixing those two things are HUGE.

And to R’ing is not easy. It take months and months to change both behavior and mentally. To place that in a "place" like that New marriage NJgal and other always mention. I view much of my marriage like I was not even truly married. My wife was just a good friend, roommate who would let me have sex to keep me around because I was one of THOSE men. In a way but different, that same need a man has when he pays a prostitute. He fools himself.. I was naive and accepting of things I should have never accepted.

How my W reacted or how I reacted in the past is of no concern about who I am today. Bad things happen or not happen. It is part of life.

I needed to look at that past to see my own failures.. It is up to my W to look hard at herself. We need to do it and do it in a way not defensive but as a way to improve us!

I can today place that period in my life like I now have a new woman.. I have and do, behave placing my W first these days. I have found that she reacts to me. And I place those in my life, her and others first. Should her reaction not be what makes me happy, then I look at what I did first. What could I do different? How did present myself? Was I a man who is masculine, strong, fair?

If I did all the right things, then I did. Just because I put her first does not mean SHE should NOT react in a positive, loving, caring way to me. We should never accept anything but a loving caring marriage. We work hard first to do every for the good of the M. If mistakes are made.. we make sure we look at ourselves first before we bring that healthy conflict… communicate in a fair way. Calm, collect, positive, and correct way.. making sure consequences are fair and delivered.

I cannot control what happens to me outside of my own control. I can donate money to a cause and the directors can steal it. Yes, I once put them first, but they reacted in a way of evil and I must now no longer make them part of my life. That behavior is that bad when I have put so much effort into being the most attractive. I let it go, and move on to the next charity and place them first. I know that is a healthy lifestyle. Everyone part of your life you place ahead of you… did you catch that? Everyone part of your life.. Should you realize you are as attractive as you can, and others are giving no Reciprocity, nothing you can do but make them no longer part of your life, to be placed first. It is black and white.. all in your life, you place first ahead of you.. if not, that cannot be part of your life to enjoy you placing them first. I view strong people like 7years, Nell who took this path… This I assure you will bring you the most peace! We all have to take a path with strength and courage… in short time, you heal.

Blobette.. what is most attractive is when others betray you, they see your strength. Strength is attractive. Your DD calls you because she is attractive to strength. She may have lost you because you moved on and eliminated misery in your life. Should your DD, Like Njgal’s H, come back to you with remorse, regret, and places herself in a lifelong program to prove to you she is drug free.. then yes you can make the choice to make her part of your life again. Sure it is a risk. You have that ability… and it is your choice to forgive with her around or not. Too me, YOU are a woman of courage and strength. Thank you for sharing your story. It is a story of courage and strength.

I wish you all strength and courage! Peace.


Posts: 2636 | Registered: Feb 2009 | From: Indiana
njgal480
♀ Member
Member # 24938
Default  Posted: 7:11 PM, August 3rd (Saturday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Tryin- Do you feel like you have a 'new and improved' marriage now?
Do you feel like you have higher standards now for what kind of marriage you want?


Me- BS
Him- WH
Long term marriage
D-day- Jan. 2007
5 yr. LTA
Reconciled.


Posts: 3139 | Registered: Jul 2009 | From: NJ
Allgoodnamesgone
♀ Member
Member # 26157
Default  Posted: 8:37 AM, August 4th (Sunday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Tryn:

Hello there!
While I agree with much of what you said & know that you are coming from a positive, encouraging place, I nonetheless felt the need to address this portion of your post:

Placing yourself second does means you behave weak.

While this sometimes may be true, it's not always the case.

"Accepting" certain kinds of behavior is not as simple as you make it sound. Yes, in my case my X came home drunk or went out too much ^ didnt behave the way a true partner did. While I did express my opinion of his behaviors, after a while, I knew there was no point. AS you say, we cannot control others, only myself. And, so while I did consider divorcing him before DDay, it was after much reflection, weighing all the consequences of same, particularly the impact upon my children, that I did not divorce. ANd, so while I may have "accepted" these behaviors because it was a futile fight, I don't consider myself weak for putting my children ahead of myself.

I'm sure many of us on LTA had a similar experience.


Yes, if you were the spouse of a LTA, yes YOU had weakness
.

Again, I disagree with this. However, I agree, that we all need to look hard at ourselves and learn from this experience.

Being strong is attractive. I agree. But, it comes in all forms.

Honest:
I dont know what this man has told you over the years since DDay; however, the reality is that he never altered his relationship with OW after DDay. Or certainly not in any significant way.
You have needed a lot of time to come back from everything he threw at you & that's understandable. But, you are strong enough now to go forward. Please have faith & take that next step.


Strength & Courage to all who need it

[This message edited by Allgoodnamesgone at 8:43 AM, August 4th (Sunday)]


Me- BS
DDay- 8/26/09
Separated after failed R effort.

Posts: 2165 | Registered: Nov 2009
hopeandchange
♂ Member
Member # 33287
Default  Posted: 4:49 PM, August 4th (Sunday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

My WW and I are spending the week together going to see DS play in a baseball tournament so this could be the beginning or the end. I will enjoy the turnament and everything else is a bonus.

Well, the week was mixed. Some good times: conversation, events, affection, exercise, and support. Could have been a great week. Sexual intimacy and a good day following. Then there was ugly conflict. h&c was seeking affirmative sexual intimacy and was persistent. W was not there and described her feelings as "trying to pull a cart with square wheels". Ugh! Well, she clearly understands my expectations for the M and now will either pivot towards the M or away from it. Later, much later, she followed with a comment "it is not you (behaviour(, it is me".

I had a great session with my IC at the end of the week and am continuing on improving my outlook on life.

Tryin.. what a fantastic post!

To think, we are not to place blame at our own feet is foolish too. All attractive people (I don’t JUST mean physical appearance but hundreds of behaviors) are “that attractive” to a point a partner will not risk losing you. Being attractive is not easy when we are taught from birth behaviors by unattractive parents

No, I was not taught unattractive behaviour by my parents. In my case, I was very unattractive after DDay. That is what is tough! To be attractive after the spouse you loved dearly trashed your soul and left you in tatters. And in my case, my WW was not strong enough to carry the load alone to rebuild our M while I wallowed in depression.

I believe my W suffers from a paradox which Tryin has referred to as the BS disqualifying oneself. She is unable to admit that having an A was wrong, thus justifies her choice based on the M being bad, and is then unable to bring herself fully back int the marriage. End result; equivocation.

So, where does that leave the two of us? Well, I am getting better (and more attractive) each day. There are setbacks and I had a major one this week with an outburst of my temper. My W will either find me attractive once again and change her behaviour towards me or we will ultimately D. I do not know what the future will bring but I do know that I will be front and center to enjoy it!

Be safe! Be happy! Be healthy! Live with ease!

h&c


BH (me, 50)
WS (her, 48)
Divorced!
3 wonderful teens
Heading for Happiness

Posts: 401 | Registered: Sep 2011
MC_Jack
♂ Member
Member # 35016
Default  Posted: 10:20 PM, August 4th (Sunday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

H&C,

I might suggest that being attractive is also showing WW divorce papers.

It follows the idea of folks wanting what they can't have and/or folks not appreciating something until it's GONE.

All,

I agree with the comment by tryn about being an LTA BS means we had a weakness. But the weakness isn't one of being a push-over, or a bad spouse, etc. To me the idea of a weakness is like Achilles and his heel. Whether it is being prone to self-deception, being willing to accept a suboptimal relationship because you don't know what you want, to not handling conflict in a good way. Everyone has a weakness... Since an LTA is like a parasite, it feeds on that weekness.

My IC told me Friday that we often accept the love that we think we deserve. Been thinking about that one... I see it as partly about creating and maintaining boundaries.

Take care y'all--

Jack


I am not a marriage counselor. I chose "MC Jack" in the spirit of a handle like "MC Hammer" or Young MC"...there is a lot of 'rapping' here, no? At the time I did not know what MC stood for on this site. Duh.

Posts: 792 | Registered: Mar 2012 | From: West Coast of Hopa-hopa-land
hopeandchange
♂ Member
Member # 33287
Default  Posted: 12:52 PM, August 5th (Monday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

W will either find me attractive once again and change her behaviour towards me or we will ultimately D.

So, my WW has made her choice: she will not work on the M and her behaviour towards me. We will D. We will follow the financial settlement that I drafted in June and I have given her the courtesy of having her lawyer draft the agreement. I will not leave any doubt that I have not been totally fairtowards her even though she did not do the dame towards me by having the A.


The inner beauty is that important… if both are attracted because they behave attractive..

Placing yourself second does means you behave weak. Nobody wants to be in a relationship with a weak person.

Tryin.. some more thoughts on attractiveness.

Taking care of someone, providing for them, doing things for their benefit and and happiness. That is attractiv behaviour. And as you have pointed out, it is no longer attractive if the recipient does not appreciate it and reciprocate when able.

My stbxww was attracted to her AP. He was marginally accomplished atheletically and she admired that. He was cute (she says); He made her laugh (she says). The had a highly sexual two year affair and became friends (she says) the second year of the A. They shared no dinners together (though they shared lunch in his car) as well as sexual trysts. He does not know her birthday nor gave her any gifts. He could not be trusted (she says) and even thought he "cheated
on her when she found a card with a phone number on it. stbxww "tried" to end the A many times and he was alwyas willing (manipulative) with "ok, are you sure?" When I became aware of her infidelity and started on the search for truth, he consoled her and told her to lie to me. They closed their conversations with "I love you" stbxww says it is all about personality, feelings and desire.....

Well, some, as was my W, find this attractive. I do not. He, as my W, was willing to dshonor himself by cheating on his spouse. How unattractive! He showed no interest in her, other than sex and his own fantasises. Sure, he was "strong" as he put himself first always. He did not provide for my W nor prtect her (other than keeping their A secret).

My stbxww and her AP brand of "attractiveness" is not one I seek. I have been "weak" in placing the well being of my family, W and kids, before my own and that does not mean that I have ignored my own needs nor let them knowingly disrepect me in their behaviour towards me.

Now, for some sports analogies.

Brian Piccilo - I am third. First my God, then my family, then myself.

John Wooden - build a stong foundation

Freddie Steinmark - I play to win! UT football kicker who lost his leg to cancer.

Life is a wonderful opportunity to experience joy and fufulliment. I will pursue my own happiness with abandon. My relationships will have a strong foundation of respect / support or they will not exist. And I will continue to place the needs of my family before my own where appropriate.

Be safe! Be happy! Be healthy! Live with ease!

h&c


BH (me, 50)
WS (her, 48)
Divorced!
3 wonderful teens
Heading for Happiness

Posts: 401 | Registered: Sep 2011
MC_Jack
♂ Member
Member # 35016
Default  Posted: 6:26 PM, August 5th (Monday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Sorry to read your news H&C. Glad that you are getting closure. Very glad that you are now on the upside.

Jack


I am not a marriage counselor. I chose "MC Jack" in the spirit of a handle like "MC Hammer" or Young MC"...there is a lot of 'rapping' here, no? At the time I did not know what MC stood for on this site. Duh.

Posts: 792 | Registered: Mar 2012 | From: West Coast of Hopa-hopa-land
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