Detach. As in
of course he's angry with the two of you. You reflect back "jackass" when you look at him. People don't like to be confronted with their own bad behavior.
DH: He's blameshifting. He will find some reason, like you are breathing wrong to do what he is doing and blaming it on you. I just feel so bad that he is taking it out on your DD. He is trying to divide and conquer.
Keep up the 180 the best you can. 7yrs has given the best advice about what to do. Don't let him bait you. It's hard to ignore your WH, so although 7yrs suggested no answer, you can still answer lightheartedly with no emotion when he asks why you slept downstairs, "We just did" or "I don't know" or some other inane answer, but do it with a SMILE and walk away. Don't engage. Don't take the bait. If he starts in, just calmly say, "I don't want to argue with you" and walk away.
You have to be the best actress in the world with him. He will not be understanding. He is trying to blame you for his actions. He will try to find something, like you didn't answer my text immediately, like he did.
I have been looking at sites for emotional abuse for a while, but this site/article was super fantastic because it gave great examples. There was even an example that made me think of Ats: leaving you at a party because you are getting some attention!! OMG.
I hope the link works and can be helpful to anyone. The article is a little long, but I thought it was so great because it gave specific examples. I kept reading and saying to myself,"Does the author know my WH? Did my WH read this and decide to act it out exactly as she described?" It was escpecially eye opening about how charming they can be and then the insiduous ways they deliver their toxins.
Sometimes when I read a book or article and it's describing so generally, I don't always see it. The emotions block the brain and logic.
Two things stood out: That for 2-3 months every thing can be wonderful, and then bam, some horrible emotional abuse either a statement or whatever. It's the same as living with someone who is great for 2 months and then decides to punch you in the face.
When it's good, it's very, very good, when it's bad it's horrendous.
Allgood: All of those things about where and when to give him the papers do scare me. Now I'm beginning to more and more to see why I've hesitated for so long. It's NOT the D or S I'm scared of, it's his reaction to it. Which ironically gives me more reason to do it.
"I don't need top change his opinion, his opinion doesn't matter to me."
Allgood, thank you for this profound statment. It is going to become my new mantra. It will be my stepping stone for detachment.
M3: I love that acronym for detach!
[This message edited by honesttoafault at 10:45 AM, July 10th (Wednesday)]
I look back over those years before d-day and now "see" so many signs that my H was involved in an A that I ignored - and wonder if I had just faced reality during those obvious signals, imagine how much less pain I could have suffered. There were so many signs but the one that stands out above all is the time they were traveling together on a "business" trip and I said I'd like to go too. My H panicked and came up with some ridiculous excuse as to why I wouldn't be able to go. I told the story to a very good friend who tried to get me to see that something was not right - but "my mind was not yet prepared to comprehend" the reality of what was going on and so, not only did they go on this trip alone but I actually drove them to the airport, kissed them goodbye and wished them a good week. I look back on that in awe at my willingness and ability to ignore the obvious.
What might have been a STA became an 8 year LTA with so many memories spoiled and so much love lost as a result of his A.
Something happens though, and for each one of us it is different, when our minds are forced to comprehend the incomprehensible. For me, it was the day my H came home with a gift bag from the OW and when I went to empty it her card fell on the floor. I picked it up, opened it and read, "I Love You" Forever Yours, OW.
No amount of denial could have prevented my comprehension of what these words were telling me. My mind and heart were forced to accept what I had for years been unable to believe.
I am telling this to you in the hopes that if your mind is locked in denial, forcing you to live one more day in pain than you should have to, welcome the harsh reality that you do "see" as a gift.
I know that in the short term denial can be a good thing but when denial prolongs our suffering for even just another day, it becomes detrimental to our well being.
I can't tell you how often I look back over those 8 years and wish I had had the strength to "comprehend" what was so blatantly staring me in the face.
I would love to hear from some of our "oldies" on here about that "aha" moment when you finally realized what was going on in your M. I'd love to hear too what were some of the obvious signs that you ignored.
Maybe my rambling isn't making much sense but I am hoping that for those of you who might be locked in either denial or a false sense of hope, you can ask yourself whether or not it is time to let your "eyes and heart see what your mind has, up to this point, been unable to comprehend."
Hugs to the tribe!!!
[This message edited by forgivenotforget at 2:13 PM, July 10th (Wednesday)]
"The eyes see only what the mind is prepared to comprehend."
I would add to this that the eyes and the heart see only ...
The problem with me is that I've been living in denial even after DDay. For a year, NPD told me he had D OW, and I so wanted to believe it, but kept investigating and snooping, that I finally got the truth.
Then I got the story about he loved only me, doesn't love her and is only with her because of the OC's. Begging me to come back overseas to live and I refused.
Now, it's how he's treating me while they are here. How much more do I have to be banged over the head???? I am so thick.
Too many red flags over the years and like you FnF, he always had some convoluted explanation that I was all too willing to believe, because the consequences of not believing I was not ready to face or precisely, not wanting to face.
The 3 main red flags that I really didn't ignore, but got lied to and one he even got his family to lie about (that sister and nieces don't talk to him any more about this whole thing)
1. Getting me to buy women's suits all the same size saying it was for his sisters, and I was arguing that sister x was this size and sister y was that and then never saw any of them wearing the suits nor a thank you, which I was thought was extremely odd for them. They are all usually so very gracious and grateful for the smallest present I gave them and would purposely wear something I gave them to show their appreciation. (I still wonder how NPD has such a wonderful family and he's so fucked up) I found out later through reliable sources that the suits were for OW!
2. Asking me to go with him to buy outfits for his all his nieces' kids (2 girls and a boy) and the sizes didn't seem right to me and again not getting thank you's or seeing the kids wearing the clothes. Found out later that those clothes were for the OC's that I didn't know about
3. Not being able to find my son's toys that we left in the beach house. A lot of them were firefighter figures with gear that I bought right after 9/11 because their older brother is a NYC firefighter. Ironically, we had had a fire in the apartment (another long story) and I bought a big plastic carton with the toys (matchbox cars, lego, etc) to clean all the soot off of to the beach house. NPD watched me scrubbing all those toys!! Found out that he gave the OC's all those toys that I couldn't find and he said he gave them away to some person or another.
Wow, that was diarrhea of the mouth!!
There is a thread in D/S (I think) about Do you wish you left sooner? (or something like that)
A lot of us wish we did something differently, but we didn't have the knowledge we have now. Many of us found SI way after DDay. And again, because of emotions, many of us could not even incorporate the advice given.
But I do know for sure, it does sink in and you finally get an "aha" moment and all the advice you were given starts to coalesce. (sp?)
Like the Karate Kid, or Helen Keller in the "Miracle Worker", you go through the motions and suddenly it all comes together and you get it.
Geez, it's like a lot of people have written on SI, that finally when the mask is off the WS, you cannot "unsee" it.
That's a scary thing.
ETA: more info
[This message edited by honesttoafault at 11:09 PM, July 10th (Wednesday)]
good luck with you entries, i too would love to see that blue ribbon...
you sound amazingly strong with such a healthy attitude....and that is good for you health wise....when we confront and fight our illnesses we do so much better...so bravo......its not easy, bravo!!
heart: absolutely DETACH his ass.....when he asks you questions, give him one word answers that answer the questions...or close to one word...i disagree...i don't think you need to smile...just be civil...
and the answers he gives should no longer matter,,...its not like he can be believed, kwim....it took a lot of practice for me to get there.....and even now i still catch myself....
we cannot change them
we cannot make them see
we cannot make them do right
we cannot rationalize the irrational
kind of like that saying from aa, which right now is not in my memory of the actual quote...
a senior moment
anyways..for both heart and honest
..his opinions should not matter,
what he wants, should not matter
what he says should be discarded, its what he does that matters and if what he does is "stupid well"...then that does not matter either...
you set your goals....and you do what you need to do to attain those goals....
heart: you have given him your list of what you need....well he either does it ALL or he doesn't....and for you, you need to proceed forward, not backwards or sideways....and until you line up those proverbial duck he either comes through or he doesn't...the burden is on him...NOT YOU
do not engage!!! live your life, do for you and do for your dd....
and as for him getting angry...its either he is blameshifting...or he is using the anger to justify his behavior....
if he is angry, he can then tell himself that whatever he's doing is ok, because he has made you the "bad guy"....which we all know is irrational....
and its also deflection....let me turn the tables so that we are no longer focused on me....
no matter.....keep moving forward and 180 his ass!!!...his head shoved way up his ass right now and its not lookin like its gonna see daylight anytime soon!!
honest: stay strong...KNOW THAT YOU CAN DO THIS AND MUST DO THIS!!!! A S A P
fnf: I LOVE THAT QUOTE!!!!
and its so so true....
when i first found out about pfm, my friend tried to tell me that he hit on her....and i shut her down, mostly because i was not ready to hear it...about 2 weeks later or so i confronted her for the info, because by then i was ready to hear it...
also i found #1 first, didn't confirm that she was a "ow", and in trying to find that out i found #2....and because #2 was in itself so damned overwhelming....( a 12 year affair), i tabled looking at #1...when i finished finding out what i could i went back to my investigation for #1...and then found #3, also confirmed my friend and found #4...by this time i also uncovered alot of financial betrayals...and then the 6 month mark came and i knew he was still lying...and I STOPPED LOOKING BECAUSE IT NO LONGER MATTERED......i made my decision.. i was done...
i went over my relationship....and several times through the years something nagged momentarily...and i asked each time, and each time he had a reason, an excuse...and they were always reasonable, and i believed because i had no reason not to...
i have too many reasons now NOT to believe....so I DON"T!!! and so i am done...i cannot stay with a man i cannot trust now or ever!!!!its no way to live imo.....never feeling "safe"
and its funny...he still asks what he could do to make things right....like HELLO ASSHOLE....how many times do you need to hear that you needed to stop lying way back when and at this point.....there is nothing....i am as done as a burnt turkey!!!only he is the TURKEY!!! and he is still a lying turkey .....
Also, and I know it's hard to do, do not project your feelings about your WH onto your DD. She is there and sees things herself.
Trust - does it appear I do this? Because it is the last thing I would want to do. Actually DD accuses me of defending him too much, and is quick to point out her anger is her own.
He is going out with his out-of-town associate again tonight. Sigh.
[This message edited by DecimatedHeart at 6:56 PM, July 10th (Wednesday)]
All my posts are edited - I hate typos. :)
It's such an unfortunate thing. We are trying so hard to survive for ourselves, that our children suffer too.
NPD has accused me that the DS's are having problems because I'm depressed.
Um..... yeah, he's right, but the reason is because of something HE has done.
Also, I take the blame for not being stronger, but unfortunately, I was as strong as I could be at the time under the circumstances.
Fnf, you asked what was the aha moment.
Unfortunately, after 4+ years after DDay, I'm having it now.
It's not the A itself, but the aftermath. It's how the WS reacts to the whole thing.
I see how NPD is acting right now.
He is treating me as though I'm someone he's dating casually, VERY CASUALLY.
I'm looking at things through a new light.
It's like after xWH#1 left and I realized that "normal" people don't act like that. (I fully realize that there is a large "bell curve" in "normal")
Normal people didn't show up at Little League games drunk, "normal" people don't go away on a weekend softball tournament and come home a day late and walk down an alley so drunk that they are bouncing off the walls in the middle of the day. (this is xWH#1)
After xWH#1 was gone for a few months did I fully realize that "normal" people don't act like this. They don't mistake the bathroom for the open window or the corner of the bedroom.
FnF, you wanted to know the aha moment??
Isn't it sad that after 4 yrs after DDay, I'm having it now???
After I told him my needs. Simple things. Even almost accepting "half" my time, that I'm seeing what is the reality?? The reality that I suspected all along??
God, it hurts like hell.
Don't 2x4 me, but why do I still love him??
i dont think you love "him" but the idea of who could be,
who he shows you some of the time, who you thought he was,
who you thought he would be,
who you believe him to be!!!!
you do not love "him"..but the thoughts of who he should be, could be and would be IF ONLY
but alas dear heart...there is NO
tis been a long long 4 years for you.....so much to comprehend, so much to take in, so much to live with
your time is now.....keep seeing him for who he really is....and put yourself in our shoes and see what we see all the time....what would you want for us, what would say to us.....
I thought I love who I thought I saw inside....
Ironically, and VERY ironically, I think I did really see who he was inside....that potential.... because I always see the good in people.
I believe it's there, BUT, and now it's the big "But", that he doesn't even see that good part of himself. His actions show more of what he is and what he wants.
I kept on wanting to believe his words.
But his actions these past week have shown me something else. Something I've always suspected and didn't want to fully believe.
It's not only that he's chosen her, he's chosen the OC's over our DS's.
He doesn't even see what he has.
DS18 asked me the other day if his father realized that he graduated HS.
NPD doesn't fully realize that he has a wonderful son that saved someone's life the other day,
DS18 became an Ocean lifeguard for the state. Ds has told me that they differentiate between a "save" and just getting someone out of trouble because of the currents or the rip tide.
DS 18 really saved someone from drowning the other day. He was saving one person and another was going down. He to tow the first person to save the other. He had to dive down to get the second person. He was holding two people up and was worried about himself. The lieutenent was about to whistle 5 x which meant everyone get out of the water because they had to look for a dead body.
NPD reaction?? "That's my son!!" and then says to me as aside, "you raised them well"
What am I, the nanny or the glorified babysitter???
What an asshole.
He doesn't fully realize how good the DS's are.
And then he tells me he's choosing his kids??????
I'm so sorry......
It's my full realization now.
It's my real dday.
I hope you understand what I'm saying.
Trying to find my big girl panties and need to buy a pair of bitch boots.
"The eyes see only what the mind is prepared to comprehend."
I would add to this that the eyes and the heart see only ...
I really believe that quote to be so true for me and a lot of other LTA BS's. I looked back at the time when WH#2 was having his A now and can't believe that I didn't suspect a thing. He was moody, started arguements (which we hardly ever had before), would leave me home sick when he went on an exotic game hunts out of state with OW (didn't know she was going too), calling all the time to find out where I was and what time I would be home, putting a password on his phone and never left it laying around, etc... It wasn't that I didn't want to see, it was I trusted him so much that it never even crossed my mind he might be having an affair. He always had a reasonable explanation for everything he did. I never knew he could lie so well because we had always shared everything and had never before had a reason to lie to each other. It was something that I thought we always took pride in that there was nothing so bad we couldn't tell each other the truth.
Now looking back at the "red flags" that were waving right in front of my face makes me feel so stupid sometimes. Then I have to tell myself I was not stupid, nor was I in any type of denial, I just put my total trust in my husband. I read somewhere that a BS always knows but they are just in denial if they say they had no clue. I do not agree with this statement as I have read too many posts where the BS is as blindsided as I was by the discovery of the A.
I guess I thought I would know because I always knew when XWH#1 had his drunken ONS's and inappropriate friendships (EA) with OW. As far as I know he never had a long term PA like WH#2, so I guess I knew how to look for one type of betrayal, but was faced with another. Like XWH#1 would not come home one night and show up the next morning, hung over, looking guilty as hell. WH#2 was never gone at night without a good explanation as to where he was and why he wouldn't be home way in advance of the day. This only happened a couple of times, so it wasn't like they did the all night thing very often. They didn't start that until I took the out of state job and the OW was living in my home when I wasn't there.
Unfortunately hindsight is 20/20 now. I have seen the ugly part of my WH#2 that I never knew existed before DDay. I truely wish sometimes I could be in denial now, but like they said once you see it you can't unsee it.
I felt so sad when I read your post.
You said that your DS is 19 now? I think you can now sit down with him and tell him your side your side of your story.
Tell DS how much you love him and how much you tried. You don't have to involve him, per se, but tell him your side as much as you can without putting down his father too much.
Geez, I feel like a JFO person. I want to 180 NPD, but in a way I want to tell him I'm done, that he lost me. Or should I just 180?
I'm so confused and upset.
I know I do this with my X - I see him every day & I get those feelings, and for a fleeting moment I think it would be so nice if we could work this out & have the family together. But it's just that - a passing moment, because I remember that it's just not possible. There are parts of him that I still like and the desire to give mykids and intact family is strong, but he will never be the person I need him to be.
Maybe you could try the same thing. Have confidence.
Get busy doing. You're ready.
Trust and Heart,
Thinking of you!
Ain't life grand?!
What's the status these days?
fnf, dip, miracle, m3 and allgood, (and dp, Laura, Sister, suol, and any other tribe lurkers),
Nell update: I've been dating a very Good Man (as opposed to Daffy, who is the Nice Guy poster boy) for about a year now. I have my own place. The boyos are happy, healthy and goofy as ever. And I am peaceful and happy. Life really is grand after all the drama and tears!
I want to tell him I'm done, that he lost me. Or should I just 180?
He has never been supportive of you - at least not in the time Ihave known you. You will not get the reaction you are looking for from him, which will just make you more upset, etc.
Step away from the NPD.
you BOTH need to 180 their asses....
doing anything else is a waste of time and an invitation to more hurt
THERE IS NO POINT
if there was a chance....BUT THERE IS NOT
if he would "see"...BUT HE WILL NOT
if he could "hear"...BUT HE CANNOT
if he would change....BUT HE WILL OT
if he would admit he is wrong...BUT HE WILL NOT
there is absolutely no point....its not even to stick up for yourself....because it really matters not.....stick up for yourself by not letting it get to you....
they want to get to you, they want to push your buttons...do not give them the satisfaction...i think they both have gotten way more then they had a right...
All you can do is not to put down her father in front of DD. She can see for himself what an ass he is.
Allgood and Miracle, I wish I read your advice before. NPD calls to say he's coming and I find out that he has been taking OW and OC's to all the places we go: specific stores, malls, beaches, parks, etc.
I wasn't going to say anything. I was stewing. NPD says he needs a haircut and DS14 asks if he could go. While they were gone, I'm still stewing, extremely upset. He gave her everything that was mine over there and now all the places that I go here, close to my home, are now "infected" KWIM?? All those places are going to be huge triggers. He invaded my security. He had to take him places near me.....
I kept thinking if I say anything, it'll start a fight. But if I don't say anything he'll be getting away with one more thing. So I did tell him that it hurt that he did that. I added that by him taking her to stores, etc that I often go to, I could have ran into them. I am seething, and upset and felt once again like a knife in my back. Like he was having her mark my territory.
I am wrong to feel this way?? It feels like it's purposeful, but then again, since he's Not thinking of me, just himself.
Even a semi-normal people who D, don't do that.
Of course he responded like the script in that article on emotional abuse I gave the link for. Blameshifting, telling me how much pressure I put on him. Telling him what to do, He doesn't know anywhere else to take them, yada yada yada. I told him that I was not telling him what to do, not asking for an apology but doing as we argreed and just telling him how I feel.
I should've 180'd him. Not said a word, not give him another piece of me.
The only good thing about it was I almost laughed at how predictable he was. I actually was detaching as I watched him react that way and not be understanding as I always hoped.
Telling me he is about to explode with all the pressure he has on him!!!
Is he insane???? Blaming me for it??
I'm insane too, but finally, finally I see that I cannot get blood from a stone. I finally see I MUST change what I'm doing.
For far too long I would come here seeking help, but was just so very upset and was trying to control myself and then ending up going back for more abuse.
Now, I need strength to follow through and 180 and DETACH DETACH DETACH
Thank you all for letting me rant. I'm trying to hold it together and stay sane.
[This message edited by honesttoafault at 12:10 AM, July 12th (Friday)]
NOT defending NPD at all, but I doubt he attached any meaning to these places. I doubt his choice of locations was anything more than just familiarity and convenience.
You should not expect him to think of you at all. He's living in his own world with his own rules. You trying to naviate through that jumbled mess will only lead to frustration/anger/sorrow, etc.
STEP AWAY FROM THE NPD