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User Topic: Help me with this idea, please
TattoodChinaDoll
♀ Member
Member # 34602
Default  Posted: 8:39 AM, June 7th (Friday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

We all have opinions on forgiveness and what it means, when we should give it, how to work to it, does one deserve it or earn it, etc. etc.

I've always known that forgiving what he has done regarding the A and after would take a very long time for me...if ever. But since we have moved on from "trying" to R (ok...he was just waiting for me to give in to his ways) to headed to divorce, and the last comment that did me in was when he told me I didn't belong in church because I never forgave him, I've been thinking about it. Not thinking about forgiving him because he wants it, just the meaning for me.

And I came to this conclusion. I forgive him for his issues. I forgive him for who he is and not beig able to change it (because who he is, is someone who would hurt someone else over and over). Can you forgive someone for that? But I don't forgive his actions. For myself, I know I don't need to forgive his actions to move on. I don't forgive him for hurting this family. But I forgive him for his whys.

Does it make sense? Any thoughts?


Me (BW): 32
WH: 33 TimeToManUp
Married: 10 years, together 16 years
3 daughters: 8, 5, 2, and and 2 angel babies (2013 and 2014)
D-Day: 12/21/2011
Confronted him: 12/22/2011

I'm getting out of here.


Posts: 1706 | Registered: Jan 2012 | From: New Jersey
MovingUpward
♂ Guide
Member # 14866
Default  Posted: 9:18 AM, June 7th (Friday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

“Forgiveness is not about forgetting. It is about letting go of another person's throat......Forgiveness does not create a relationship. Unless people speak the truth about what they have done and change their mind and behavior, a relationship of trust is not possible. When you forgive someone you certainly release them from judgment, but without true change, no real relationship can be established.........Forgiveness in no way requires that you trust the one you forgive. But should they finally confess and repent, you will discover a miracle in your own heart that allows you to reach out and begin to build between you a bridge of reconciliation.........Forgiveness does not excuse anything.........You may have to declare your forgiveness a hundred times the first day and the second day, but the third day will be less and each day after, until one day you will realize that you have forgiven completely. And then one day you will pray for his wholeness......”

― Wm. Paul Young, The Shack

I always come back to this. Forgiveness is for me. It is to free me from holding in hate and anger and a grudge.


AKA Moo

Think of the haters in your life as sandpaper; they’ll scratch you up time and time again but in the end you’re polished, smooth, and spotless..while they end up useless

We make a living by what we get, but we make a life by what we give.


Posts: 51519 | Registered: Jun 2007 | From: Big Blue Nation
itainteasy
♀ Member
Member # 31094
Default  Posted: 9:23 AM, June 7th (Friday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

The thing about forgiveness is that it's for YOU. It's not for the other person. HE wants YOU to forgive him for everything he did and continues to do so he can throw it in your face every time you trigger/have a bad day/feel sad/grieve for the loss of your relationship and marriage.
"HOW can you be sad/mad TCD??? you FORGAVE me!"

If and when you forgive him is completely up to you. And you never have to tell him that you did.

I remember when you posted about him telling you that you didn't belong in church, and man did my blood boil. HE doesn't belong in church either. Adultery is on God's Top Ten DO NOT DO list.

Forgiveness is for YOU, not him. If you're not ready to forgive, then don't.

For me, if I am going to forgive someone for hurting/harming me, I can only do it if I have seen true remorse from that person. If that person's behavior towards me has not changed, I cannot forgive.


And also...everything Moo said.

[This message edited by itainteasy at 9:23 AM, June 7th (Friday)]


Posts: 3306 | Registered: Feb 2011 | From: NWPA
tushnurse
♀ Member
Member # 21101
Default  Posted: 9:25 AM, June 7th (Friday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

TCD I really don't he give on iota if you forgive him or not. That was just another way for him to manipulate you in his NPD way.

That being said, don't feel rushed to do this, don't pressure yourself. I was only able to really forgive when I was healed. Now I went down the R road, had we D'd, and he then been responsible for his kids, and not a vindicitive F'r during D then I would have probably been able to forgive him at that point.

MU's statement is very true as well.
If you try to do it before your ready, you will find yourself feeling guilty for not really meaning it.


Me: FBS
Him: FWS
Kids: 15 & 17
Married for 22 years now, was 16 at the time. .
D-Day Sept 26 2008
Fully R'd, and Happy Happy Happy

Posts: 7815 | Registered: Oct 2008 | From: St. Louis
JustWow
♀ Member
Member # 19636
Default  Posted: 9:41 AM, June 7th (Friday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I see forgiveness and reconciliation as really 2 separate issues.
I agree with the posters who have said forgiveness is for you. I also have this crazy notion that to forgive someone, they must be truly sorry - remorseful is the word used around here. Not sorry for the consequences, sorry they got caught, but truly sorry for the offense.

Now, I can forgive someone, and have no desire to reconcile with them. They are truly forgiven by me, but based on my feelings or beliefs, maintaining a relationship with them may not be a good idea. They are likely to not "feel" forgiven if that is the case. Not my problem.
Sometimes someone isn't sorry, I may want no relationship with them. But I still need to do MY work of not carrying aroung a big bag of hate and negative energy, I need to let it go. Not let it take up space in my head.

In my book, what gets called remorse around here needs to have a huge, solid basis in EMPATHY. Without it, the offender tends to just come off as rug sweeping, minimizing, sorry for being caught, sorry for the consequences.... but no more safe to be around than when they were doing the damage in the first place.

My 2 cents, for what it is worth.


BW - Reconciling

edited for typos (I always have to!)


Posts: 3586 | Registered: May 2008 | From: Midwest
TattoodChinaDoll
♀ Member
Member # 34602
Default  Posted: 9:55 AM, June 7th (Friday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

JustWow - I'm a lot like you. And that last paragraph there is one of the reasond why my marriage is ending. No empathy. Hell, not even sympathy.

I'm wasn't thinking of this because I feel forced to forgive something. It was just a thought about if I could forgive now, what would it be.

What is really telling about who he is and what is a big flashing warning sign is why he wants forgiveness. He wants me to forgive him so he has a reason to try. Why would he want to try if I don't forgive him (yes he has said that)? He wants to know that I will love him each time he fucks up...but he wants that reassurance first. I recognize that. Sorry dude. Not the kind of man I want in my life.


Me (BW): 32
WH: 33 TimeToManUp
Married: 10 years, together 16 years
3 daughters: 8, 5, 2, and and 2 angel babies (2013 and 2014)
D-Day: 12/21/2011
Confronted him: 12/22/2011

I'm getting out of here.


Posts: 1706 | Registered: Jan 2012 | From: New Jersey
SisterMilkshake
♀ Member
Member # 30024
Default  Posted: 10:12 AM, June 7th (Friday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I feel people get "hung" up on forgiveness. Either wanting it or giving it. I just don't give a damn about forgiveness, actually. I feel the most important person we ever have to forgive is ourselves.

When I am able to forgive myself, I am able to forgive others. But, I don't worry about it. It happens when it happens. I have had people do "unforgivable" things to me. (Father physically abusing me.) I didn't think I would ever forgive him. He never asked for forgiveness. One day, I woke up and realized I had forgiven my father. It just happened.

To me, that is what true forgiveness is. It is a process. It sneaks up on you when you least expect it. It is in the hidden corners of our hearts and minds. It is in our growing and experiencing life, in our everyday interactions with other people. It is in our ability to love others. It is in our ability to love and accept ourselves and to forgive ourselves for being flawed human beings.


BW (me) 50ish FWH 50ish
Married 34 years, 3 children
d-day 3/10 LTA (4 yrs./fucking & flirting)

"Oh, why do my actions have consequences?" ~ Homer Simpson
"She knew my one weakness: That I'm weak!" ~ Homer Simpson


Posts: 9408 | Registered: Nov 2010 | From: The Great White North USA
Ladyogilvy
♀ Member
Member # 31558
Default  Posted: 10:15 AM, June 7th (Friday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I have never gone for the forgiveness is something you do for yourself thing. It probably started with my child molesting birthfather. The last conversation I ever had with him was when I was 16. He told me god had already forgiven him so it didn't really matter to him if I forgave him but that I should forgive him for my own well being. If I wasn't an atheist before that, I certainly was after. What manipulative bullshit. Right up there with "get over it."

I feel forgiveness without things like empathy, remorse, restitution, or forgiveness given of fear of going to hell for not forgiving... It's not realistic. It's more denial and repression than forgiveness. Worse yet, it let's the abuser off the hook and free to abise again and again and again.

I read a book I found very validating. You might find it helpful. It really is one of the best self help books I've ever read. It's called, "How Can I Forgive You?" It talks about the difference between forgiveness and acceptance. Some people do not deserve forgiveness. They haven't earned it. They are toxic to us. We don't have to forgive to move on. We can accept that they are toxic people, remove them from our lives and move on.

I haven't spoken to him once for the past 32 years. Changed my name, moved, don't have any other family for him to find me through. He doesn't even know if I'm alive. He does not deserve the privilege of knowing me or anything about me. I never forgave him, just accepted he was a serial child molester and rapist and that I was better off without him. Nothing to regret there. I did try to protect future victims by reporting him to authorities. It didn't do any good. I did tell is parents right after my last conversation with him. That, at least, did lead to other victims in the family coming out with their stories. I was able to find out that and other information through a Facebook contact with one of his other victims. Gotta love social media.

As for WH, I can't say I've forgiven or accepted. He is working on earning forgiveness. I am working on acceptance.

[This message edited by Ladyogilvy at 10:17 AM, June 7th (Friday)]


Me: BW a youthful 49
Him: alcoholic, sober now, WH 56
Married 19 years
Two sons, 16 & 17 years old
DD? He's still keeping secrets and only admits to what I have indisputable
evidence of... the $2000 earrings he bought her for x-mas.

Posts: 1512 | Registered: Mar 2011 | From: California
sisoon
♂ Member
Member # 31240
Default  Posted: 10:42 AM, June 7th (Friday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

TCD, In holding onto memories of his actions, you may simply be protecting yourself. If that's what you're doing, I applaud you, and I hope you applaud yourself.

He's hurt you repeatedly after promising to stop. The last time (that you don't belong in church) was less than a month ago, and it cut very, very deep, right? You're working out a D that he doesn't want - how likely is it that he'll attack and hurt you again?

Your idea makes perfect sense to me. It sounds healthy, and it sounds like a step that will allow you to heal further.

Forgive your H when and if he stops hurting you.

(((TCD)))


fBH (me) - 65+, fWW (her) - 65+, Married 45+, together since 1965
DDay - 12/2010
Recovered, not yet fully R'ed
I share my own experience because it's the only experience I know, not because I'm a good model.

Posts: 9773 | Registered: Feb 2011 | From: Chicago area
callmecrazy
♀ Member
Member # 38765
Default  Posted: 11:32 AM, June 7th (Friday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

You can forgive a person, but it does not mean you are able to trust them (generally bc they are unwilling to earn it back). Also, there is plenty in that bible on what you are biblically ok to do should you have an unrepentant/unremorseful cheating spouse.

Posts: 279 | Registered: Mar 2013
TattoodChinaDoll
♀ Member
Member # 34602
Default  Posted: 11:41 AM, June 7th (Friday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Unfortunately Sisoon, his idea is that he can't stop doing the things that hurt me until he knows I will forgive him. And not forgive him in my own time. But forgive him in his time...which is like now. And we all know that my forgiveness is not going to repair his issues. That just makes no sense. He is ok with losing everything that will ever be good in his life to not have to admit he is his whys...passive aggressive, nacisstic, lacking in empathy, emotionally stunted, and selfish.


Me (BW): 32
WH: 33 TimeToManUp
Married: 10 years, together 16 years
3 daughters: 8, 5, 2, and and 2 angel babies (2013 and 2014)
D-Day: 12/21/2011
Confronted him: 12/22/2011

I'm getting out of here.


Posts: 1706 | Registered: Jan 2012 | From: New Jersey
tushnurse
♀ Member
Member # 21101
Default  Posted: 1:13 PM, June 7th (Friday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

BS he is just using that for an excuse to continue to get away with the BS he has all along. Don't tolerate it, and don't let him manipulate you any more.

As some wise other members here are fond of saying FTG.


Me: FBS
Him: FWS
Kids: 15 & 17
Married for 22 years now, was 16 at the time. .
D-Day Sept 26 2008
Fully R'd, and Happy Happy Happy

Posts: 7815 | Registered: Oct 2008 | From: St. Louis
TattoodChinaDoll
♀ Member
Member # 34602
Default  Posted: 1:33 PM, June 7th (Friday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Oh...I totally know it. Lots of things coming together from the last 15 years. I'm focusing on myself and the protecting the kids.


Me (BW): 32
WH: 33 TimeToManUp
Married: 10 years, together 16 years
3 daughters: 8, 5, 2, and and 2 angel babies (2013 and 2014)
D-Day: 12/21/2011
Confronted him: 12/22/2011

I'm getting out of here.


Posts: 1706 | Registered: Jan 2012 | From: New Jersey
alphakitte
♀ Member
Member # 33438
Default  Posted: 3:10 PM, June 7th (Friday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

He won't stop hurting you until you forgive him for hurting you?

Wait . . . What? OMG! That gave me the best belly laugh. And, to think he doesn't know how stupid that sounds.

And it sounds like he doesn't know what church is about either! Jus' sayin.


------ Some people are emotional tadpoles. Even if they mature they are just a warty toad. Catt

Posts: 347 | Registered: Sep 2011 | From: 3 klicks north of Ambiguous
TattoodChinaDoll
♀ Member
Member # 34602
Default  Posted: 3:19 PM, June 7th (Friday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Yep. Pretty much. It's so dumb it makes it easy to walk away.


Me (BW): 32
WH: 33 TimeToManUp
Married: 10 years, together 16 years
3 daughters: 8, 5, 2, and and 2 angel babies (2013 and 2014)
D-Day: 12/21/2011
Confronted him: 12/22/2011

I'm getting out of here.


Posts: 1706 | Registered: Jan 2012 | From: New Jersey
sisoon
♂ Member
Member # 31240
Default  Posted: 3:22 PM, June 7th (Friday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

his idea is that he can't stop doing the things that hurt me until he knows I will forgive him. And not forgive him in my own time.

He's beyond nasty and abusive. Where the hell did he get the idea he can continue to hurt another person in order to extort forgiveness??? He needs to be quarantined!

More important, what do you need to do to keep yourself from buying into his effed up mindset?

Don't
Even
Think
About
Changing
Him!

I know you're still very far down, and for very good reason - but you've got to find the strength to detach from his craziness.

You've been betrayed. You've suffered loss. He's trying to keep you from church, where you're welcome. You can - you've got to - take care of yourself and stop taking care of him - that'll be better for both of you.

Can you talk to your pastor?

(((TCD)))

[This message edited by sisoon at 3:23 PM, June 7th (Friday)]


fBH (me) - 65+, fWW (her) - 65+, Married 45+, together since 1965
DDay - 12/2010
Recovered, not yet fully R'ed
I share my own experience because it's the only experience I know, not because I'm a good model.

Posts: 9773 | Registered: Feb 2011 | From: Chicago area
nowiknow23
♀ Guide
Member # 33226
Default  Posted: 3:25 PM, June 7th (Friday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

It's so dumb it makes it easy to walk away.
And that, as twisted as it sounds, is a gift.


You can call me NIK

Wise men talk because they have something to say; fools, because they have to say something.
- Plato


Posts: 24437 | Registered: Aug 2011
TattoodChinaDoll
♀ Member
Member # 34602
Default  Posted: 3:33 PM, June 7th (Friday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Don't worry about the church thing. He hasn't gone in forever because that is when DD7's hockey games are so he takes her and I take the other two to church. And I don't remember a time before that, that he didn't nod off during the sermon. I'm very active in my church and I'm serving my 4th term as a deacon. I am very welcome there.

I'm also at a new level of detachment. Previously I tried, had some success, but always failed. Because I had hope that he would change. I believed he was stronger than his whys. Or at least his love for me was. In the past month or two I've put a lot together and reached some new understandings. I have a post down in divorce/separation about it. I'm not surprised by him. Because I finally believe what he had shown me since DDay and for the last 15 years. It hurts. But I'm not hurting to have him. I think more importantly the feelings of worthlessness has pretty much left now that he has shown me and I believe his brokenness.


Me (BW): 32
WH: 33 TimeToManUp
Married: 10 years, together 16 years
3 daughters: 8, 5, 2, and and 2 angel babies (2013 and 2014)
D-Day: 12/21/2011
Confronted him: 12/22/2011

I'm getting out of here.


Posts: 1706 | Registered: Jan 2012 | From: New Jersey
Topic Posts: 18

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