look, her behavior has changed, in tangible ways(shower, panties, activities) there is a reason for that.
Go on the down low and find out, you need to protect yourself.
go down to the nearest electronic store, get a decent VAR with good batteries and find out what's going on.
Take care of yourself, eat, sleep, drink water, exercise and try to enjoy life a little.
if I came to my FWW with these accusations, I imagine she would be : sad, concerned, eager to disprove, ....but not angry....and not threatening.
If she'd never cheated, you wouldn't have a problem with her having male friends.
SHE needs to learn boundaries, and needs to learn how to put her marriage and husband first.
YOU are not doing anything wrong.
I would be extremely angry if my fiance was having a "friendship" with someone that made me uncomfortable/angry/hurt/insecure. The friendship would be over or our relationship would be over.
You say you don't want go all 007.... But don't you want to know the truth?
Look, like I said before, she's setting you up to be the badguy here.
SLH gave you solid advise on how to get the truth. And that's what you need, regardless if you try to save your marriage or divorce. You can do this! We can guide you on your path.... Which ever YOU decide to take.
2:She has no respect for your feelings because she keeps on texting, IMing, and even went to a bar with him knowing how you felt.
3:Your gut is trying to tell you something.. LISTEN!
4:They are not just friends. If they were he would have really wanted to talk and been more intuned to you.
5:Tons of WS will tell you all about the OP. And talk about them all the time, get you to met them. It is a cover. I went through it for 3.5 years and all the while they were sleeping together, going out partying, and they thought they were a couple, but to me when I would accuse because I would NOTICE CUM STAINS IN HIS BOXERS OR BOTTOM OF HIS SHIRT ALL THE TIME then it was "we are just friends". Oh the lies! Good Lord, makes me sick when I look back.
4:She is blameshifting this on you. making you feel guilty for questioning her. Now she is thinking of seperation, and you are feeling like you are up against a wall and feeling like " I wish I would have not said anything".. Been there done that also.
She will start going out more and more, her phone will be by her side more and more, you will get the I love you but not in love with you soon also. And she will make it your fault for not trusting her.
PLEASE PLEASE do the 180 NOW or you may be like I was for 3.5 years. It is at the start of A and once she gets into the lala land of it, it will go PA.
I feel so bad for you and want to scream at your wife!
It is not rocket science to see what she is doing and she knows it!
Tell her that seperation is fine. Blow her Bluff. Act like you don't care. Be nonchalant about things. That will get her attention.
I am sorry that you are going thru this.
Please listen to us. Be strong, you can do this.
[This message edited by Faithful w/Love at 1:21 PM, June 5th (Wednesday)]
"You never know how strong you are until being strong is all you have left"
I am being totally honest but I feel she is already crossed the line.
Oh and Also, she is mind-fucking you.
This is why you need a var. To find out what is REALLY going on. You CANNOT trust her words, they are meaningless (and manipulative).
You don't have to decide ANYTHING right this second. Take the time you need for YOU.
Everything about this is crazy-making, you are not alone in that.
If your WW had decent boundaries, if she had not CHEATED on you already, then there would be no problem with having male friends. But she doesn't have male friends, she has male 'friends' - ie, affair partners.
If I were in your position, I would not confront her with any evidence but I would collect it in any way possible. For my own peace of mind. And to eventually make decisions based on REALITY and not on her meaningless soundwaves.
You've told her that her "friendship" with K disturbs you. She should stop that friendship if she really cared about you.
But she continues to see K after work and texts and call him all the time.
She gets mad at you because you don't trust her. Why should you? She destroyed that trust 3 years ago.
Maybe it's time to review your options.
"Affairs are not mistakes, they are a series of deliberate choices." - CrappyLife
I also wanted to say I think I painted a incorrect picture for some of you about the amount of contact she is having with K. You are telling me to get a VAR and stick in her car. In the past 2 months she has had 1 phone call with him. The text messages have not been that many either but there has been some. I am not downplaying that she crossed boundaries but I also don't want to make it seem like this was an all day everyday thing with K. With the EMA she was on the phone with him to work, at work, and after work. It was all day long and she was complaining about me to the OP. With K it has been different from the text messages and IMs I read she spoke highly of me and was telling K the things that him and I have in common such as both working in the IT field and having an interest in new cell phones.
Faithful--- what is the 180 that you mentioned in your post? I feel our situations have a lot of similarities to them based on your response. The only problem I have had was trying to keep my calm. Like I said earlier I didn't sleep very well last night. Maybe 3 -4 hours tops. I woke up at 4:30am and was balling because of the dreams and thoughts I was having. This morning while getting ready for work we spoke a little but I had a hard time even looking her in the eye without losing it. She did even come up to me and give me a long hug and kiss. I know she said she is struggling with this too and told me this isn't and easy decision. I feel like she thinks the easy way out is to leave so she has a chance at still meeting someone and having a kid. I think she feels if she stays and we try to make it work again and we still come to this same spot again then she not only has she lost her marriage but also her shot at having a baby. I really love her with all my heart and it makes me very sad to think it is all over. I really wanted to be a dad too and I wanted to be the man to give her that wish.
She hasn't left yet or even made up her mind about what she is going to do. tonight I am going to see a therapist along with the other appointment I made for next week to see which person I think can help me better. I figure at this point at least I can start working on me and my future either with or without my wife.
Remember, it's not your fault! She's doing this. Good luck and keep posting for support.
"The world breaks everyone and afterward many are strong at the broken places." ~Ernest Hemingway
what is the 180 that you mentioned in your post?
She hasn't left yet or even made up her mind about what she is going to do.
Gently, because I KNOW this is HARD: the question isn't what is SHE going to do, it's what are YOU going to do.
Take back your power. Don't let her stay in the driver's seat. She will keep you dangling on a string as long as you let her.
Are you prepared to risk losing your marriage in order to possibly save it? The best advice - and probably hardest to accept - is to CLOSE THE BAKERY. Why are you waiting for her to decide whether she wants to stay with you or not? You are worth more than that!
You cannot 'nice' her back into the M. She doesn't choose you right now? Then she doesn't get you. She can LEAVE and have the life she thinks she wants. Show her what the reality of losing you is.
She does not value you right now. YOU need to value you.
There are some great posts in the Just Found Out forum (JFO), usually on the first or second page with targets next to them. These will have good informtion to help you out. Here are some links:
Tactical primer: http://www.survivinginfidelity.com/forums.asp?tid=235051
Boundaries and consequences: http://www.survivinginfidelity.com/forums.asp?tid=385631
Before you say reconcile: http://www.survivinginfidelity.com/forums.asp?tid=406548
20/20 hindsight: http://www.survivinginfidelity.com/forums.asp?tid=446349
It's simple. Simple, but not easy, believe me we all know this.
I hope things went well with your IC. I'm so sorry you are in this situation.
It's plain and simple. WW had an EMA and you gave her the gift of R. if she cared about the M or you or your feelings and really was working her part of the R, she would not have had this male friend in the first place let alone continue the supposed "just a friend" friendship given your feelings.
This tells you he isn't just a friend.
And no, don't wait for her to text or call him, give her a reason to do so in a panic. Get a spoof account and go to another phone and call your phone for however long of a dead air call with his number in the caller id and make sure WW runs into the evidence of the call or I can't remember if he's married? If so, pay a service to get his wife's cell and spoof up a bunch of hang up calls from wife's number and ask WW if she knows who is calling and hanging up.
Prior to this VAR and key log everything and get a signal jammer so she can't text from the house which you can deactivate if you leave the VARed up house for a brief time.
This will provide you with the flat out evidence and for sure answer WTF is going on. And she has been gas lighting the living hell out of you so gaslight back and don't ponder the ethics and blah blah. This is war and your marriage is what's at stake.
You are telling me to get a VAR and stick in her car. In the past 2 months she has had 1 phone call with him. The text messages have not been that many either but there has been some. I am not downplaying that she crossed boundaries but I also don't want to make it seem like this was an all day everyday thing with K. With the EMA she was on the phone with him to work, at work, and after work. It was all day long and she was complaining about me to the OP. With K it has been different from the text messages and IMs I read she spoke highly of me and was telling K the things that him and I have in common such as both working in the IT field and having an interest in new cell phones.
Gently: you have only read what she's left on her phone and what she has wanted to show you. You don't know how often they actually talk, or IM, or email. I'd be surprised if she knew you were checking her phone, yet she still used that phone to do most of the communication with K.
Your gut is red flagging this relationship because it's inappropriate. As others have said, EVEN IF what you know of the relationship is all there is to it, it's inappropriate. As a husband, you've told her that a relationship with another man makes you uncomfortable and you respectfully asked her to stop it. Even though she claims K means nothing to her and cutting of communication would be "no big deal" - she is still not cutting it off even though she knows it's hurting her marriage.
Do you not see how inappropriate that is?
And blaming you for being "paranoid" and acting as if she's the victim of your paranoia is classic WS blame shifting. She's asking you not to believe your ears, your eyes, your gut. She's telling you that all the red flags are coming from your own paranoid mind. She's telling you that you are codependent and wrong. She's telling you that she is just fine, just a "strong independent woman". This comes directly from the WS script. Think about if your WW suspected you of infidelity and you were innocent. Think about her respectfully bringing this to your attention. Pointing out things that are bothering her. Telling you about things that made her uncomfortable. Can you honestly see, as an innocent person, going on the attack? Blaming her? Shaming her?
With regards to our recent discussions she has told me that she has always been a strong independent person and she feels I am very codependent on her. She feels I would have a hard time being on my own. To be honest I have never been alone in my entire life. I lived at home until 18 years old with my parents. I then went to college and lived with friends/roommates with 4 years and then I meet my wife. I lived with her ever since.
Living at home, going to college and having roommates and then getting married is normal! Everyone lives at home when they're young. Everyone has at least one roommate and usually several in college. That's not "dependent" - that's normal. And if you move in with a girlfriend during college and then go on to marry that girlfriend, you're doing exactly what a vast majority of the population does. That's not being codependent, are you kidding? What you describe is one of the most natural, normal patterns of life in this country. Just because you never lived in your own apartment without roommates before meeting your spouse, that's suddenly a mark of dependence? I've never heard such a thing. That's really warped and twisted thinking. And she's trying to shame you for that?
And now, in the middle of trying to have a baby with her husband, instead of working on her boundaries and cutting off a relationship that is harming her marriage, she thinks it will be easier to divorce you, meet someone else and have a baby with the next person?
jayzee, I'm sorry but none of this adds up. She's feeding you a lot of bull, and she is really messing with your mind.
Thanks for posting the information about the 180. I am going to do some more reading about it today. Anyways on to the latest update.
Yesterday, I was able to make an appointment with a Licensed Marriage & Family Therapist. She has a Masters in marriage and couples therapy and has a great deal of experience dealing with EMA and possible divorce. After meeting with her and giving her the same rundown that I gave all of you in my first post she started asking me some questions about our previous CT that we attended after the EMA was discovered 3 years ago. It was her professional opinion that the person we were seeing did not know how to specifically handle As because she said I never heard the tools to forgive my wife for what happened and how to cope and deal with my insecurities and how to properly setup boundaries which she told me I never fully established properly with my WW. She basically hit me over the head with a brick but I was stunned to hear this. She felt that I simply was reading way too much into this relationship with K and blowing things way out the proportion and even been destructive with my thoughts and actions. She did say she can help me and that there would be a lot of work involved but she said she may even be able to save the marriage but if not she would continue to work with me to fix these issues so that I am a stronger and more confident person moving forward in my life with or without this marriage. She asked me to talk to my WW wife either last night or today and ask her to give me more time to work on myself. She told me to point out the positive changes I have made over the past 3 years and to assure my wife I was capable of making changes as evident by the ones I have already made. She asked me to ask her for more time and if she said No to be prepared to cry and to be hurt but then realize it is time to move on. If she said yes or I don't know that she asked me to ask for 3 months.
So after leaving therapy last night I meet up with some friends and I went to watch their daughters softball game which helped a lot to keep my mind off things. Once the game ended I drove home and let the dogs out and feed them dinner and then made myself something to eat. My WW was not home at this point nor did I know if she was coming home. She previously made plans last night a few weeks back to meet up with an out-of-state friend for dinner. I wasn't sure she was going to stay at the hotel with her friend or possibly stay at her mom's condo. Anyways, per the therapist "take home" work I was to contact my WW and ask to talk and see if she would be willing to give me more time.
I texted her and said I know you are out with your friend right now but I would like the opportunity to talk to you tonight. She responded about 45 minutes later saying she was just finishing up dinner with her friend and would be going back home for the night and would call me on her way home. She did call me and let her know I had gone to see a therapist today and let her know that she opened my eyes to sometimes I wasn't previously aware of such as me thinking I forgave you for the EMA when in reality I never did because our previous therapy sessions never told me how to properly do that and that is a major part of why I have been still holding on this for the past 3 years. I asked her to see the changes I have made for myself and our marriage over this time and to use that as proof I can make changes for the positive. I asked her to give me more time to work with this new therapist and see if I can make more changes in order to help myself and help repair our M. She said she didn't know so I asked if she would give me the 3 months as suggested by the therapist. She agreed but the also told me not to except her to just pretend like all this turmoil we have been experiencing hasn't occurred and things will just suddenly go back to "normal". I agreed and was exactly a bit surprised she agreed to give me more time. She was happy about me going to IC and thought that is sounded like this therapist would be able to help me better than before. She did also mention that the past 2 days of her not having to "check-in" with me constantly felt great to her. Because of my constant insecurities she felt to reassure me she would constantly "check-in" with me with IMs, texts, or calls. (i.e. text me when she was leaving work, text me when she got to where she was going, text me when she left where she was, call me when was on her way home.) I mean that type of communication is normal but she said I required to an excessive amount and it bothered her but she never spoke up about because she new it helped appease my insecurities. I was a little dejected by this comment but at the same time I understand how frustrating that could be if she required the same of me.
From there the conversation shifted to the problems she has been having with her car as of late. The check engine light came on in her car last Friday afternoon while driving home from work. Over the weekend were busy but we managed to take it to one place on Sunday afternoon and they checked it out and said they didn't see anything wrong. Unfortunately this shop was more of an oil change, tire, battery, brakes kind of place so we didn't know how well trained they were to look at engine problems. Anyways we agree based on our schedules for the week that Thursday we would drop her car off at the dealer and then she would drop me off at work and then take my car to drive herself to work. Once everything exploded on Tuesday morning I told her I was wanted to attend a CoDa support meeting on Thursday night to see what it was all about. Anyways, getting back to the conversation from last night she tells me that K is going to meet her at the dealership this morning and then they will drive to work together since he lives about 5 mins away from the dealership and they are both going to the same office. In her words, so I can then go to my support group meeting tonight instead of having to miss it because of not having a car. I didn't say anything about it at all except "Ok". I didn't really know what to think other than this seemed like an excuse to spend more time with K.
When she arrived home we talked a little more and she told me she thought it was great that I went to talk to somebody. We then before agreed we were tired and went upstairs to bed. She has slept in our bed the past 2 nights but we have not really touched other than the one kiss/hug yesterday morning. I thanked her listening to me and for agreeing to give me more time. She told me I was her best friend and she just wants to see me be happy regardless if that means being together or being apart. That made me feel good in the way I felt like she hasn't completely given up hope for us yet. I also told her I would assist her to find a therapist for herself if liked by showing her which ones were approved for our medical insurance. She did agree that was a good idea. I did ask her way she wanted IC as opposed to CT and she said she is too angry and hurt right now and it would be counter-productive to attend CT. She feels like IC would be the best route for now to work on her issues and then if things progress for both us than maybe we can look in CT. The last thing I asked her was if she was still planning on going on vacation with me at the end of the month. My family rents a cabin on a lake for a week each year and her and I have been going there for the past 10 years or so since we started dating. She told she has been going back and forth about it and she doesn't know at this time. I then asked if she is giving me more time wouldn't going with me be part of that and her response was "we'll see".
My thing is my parents are the ones that rent this place and they are going to find it extremely odd that my wife has pulled out of going on this trip 2.5 weeks ahead of time when she has been talking about going the past few times we have seen my parents. Obviously if she chooses not to go then something will need to be said to my parents. Do I lie and say she has to work? Do I tell them a half truth and say that we have been have some issues with the marriage and we agreed it would be better if we stayed apart that week? I just feel we are quickly approaching a critical point where people outside of just me and her and our therapists know what is going on and how we handle those conversations.
This morning we didn't really speak except for some normal chit-chat. I told her to remind the dealer about a few other small issues with the car. She got up showered, dressed and was out the door by 6:40am to meet K at the dealer by 7am because K starts work and 1.5 before my W does so she needed the drop the car off and catch a ride with him so he can still get to the office on time. She let me know she was leaving for the day and I asked her what her plans were for the evening and if she cared to join me to watch the Blackhawks playoff game with me tonight and she agreed before she walked out the door. No kiss or hug today.
Anyways, I am very conflicted because the therapist basically told me the complete opposite of what I have been reading here so far and she kind of agreed with my W in saying that I was overly reading into things and hugely overreacting to my insecurities. I am a huge mess right now and I find it hard to keep you the confidence and stay strong.
Based on the quick read through I did on the 180. I have a few questions....
#11 Do more than act as if you are moving on with your life; begin moving on with your life!
What are some suggestions for this step? I am not a very social person and as I mention money is an issue so I can't exactly go out and spend money to keep me busy. most days I get home from work by 5pm. On MWF I workout at home after work and TTh I got to the gym for swim classes that I take. I have continued to go to my classes but other than that I usually come home, make dinner, and watch TV. The friends we have are all couples and most have kids so doing stuff with them during the week is difficult and in a way I feel like they can read through me right now and tell something is wrong and want to ask questions I am not prepared to answer.
#13 I guess is also similar in terms of doing things. I don't have many hobbies and again money is a factor. I mean one of my hobbies is video games but I feel like that is sitting around and probably not a good solution. I think going to IC and possibly a support meeting are good things for now to keep my busy. Any suggestions are welcome.
I apologize for another lengthy post but I feel this has been a good outlet for me thus far. I will continue to post on here and let everyone know how things are going regardless if they are positive or negative. I appreciate all the comments, concerns, and suggestions. I know I will get through this and I will be stronger on the other side. I just to remind myself to keep smiling and moving my feet.
I am very conflicted because the therapist basically told me the complete opposite of what I have been reading here
FWIW, I think your therapist got her license out of a cracker jack box. The only 'smart' thing she said was that you never established boundaries. All the rest of it is bullshit, IMO.
I would very strongly suggest that you place a VAR in your WW's car. Cheaters are sneaky little devils. Right now you have NO idea what she is capable of. She could have a 2nd phone. Also, are you aware that there are apps that allow phone calls to be made and texts to be sent that do not show up on the phone bill?
Your WW is playing you. BIG TIME. You can't see it yet, but you will when you're ready to.
In my effort to be *concise*, I often come off as blunt and harsh. Sorry, don't mean to be offensive.
Please see another IC before you continue with this one. I think it is a BIG mistake to put the blame onto you. HUGE.
You haven't 'forgiven' - meaning you haven't sufficiently swept this under the rug so that your WW can continue with her cheating ways. Why don't you trust your WW? Umm, maybe it has something to do with HER NOT BEING TRUSTWORTHY.
And now she is leveraging her 'car trouble' (btw, did you see the check engine light on??) into EXTRA time she 'must' spend with K??? Give me a break...
I am so sorry you are going through this. I really don't think you have found an IC that will be a good fit for your situation.
As for the 180 - are there any free or inexpensive classes, clubs, etc of interest to you in your area? Do you enjoy outdoor activities or sports? What did you used to like doing? You mentioned swimming - maybe add running and/or cycling, perhaps aim at an event like a duathlon or triathlon? Just a few thoughts.
Not all IC's are qualified to handle infidelity. Yours isn't.
..that feeling you get in your stomach, when you heart's broken. It's like all the butterflies just died.
Ask your IC if she ever has exprienced an A for herself? If she has not than she is only going off what a person who has never been cheated on would be like.
She and your W has put this all on you! No fucking WAY!
STOP IT STOP IT STOP IT!!!!
Why the hell are you doing all this work but your W gets nothing to work on? Fuck that and throw that to the dogs.
We have similar situation. I am trying to help you see before you end up like I was. Full of guilt, blaming myself, on my knees everytime he would leave to go out. Waking up in shock because it was 5am and he was still not home. List go's on and on because I was to afraid to put my foot down! He was all I knew for 19 years. How could he do this to me? Why is he doing this to me? And the crazy head games you start to play with yourself. You will take everything they say and anylast it. You will pick out what makes you feel hope. And you will go off the deep end with the things that don't.
Understand this PLEASE!
YOUR WIFE... is spending time with another MALE! Who in their right mind would do this if they loved their spouse and had good morals? They would see how much it hurts the person they claim to love? Why can't she stop contact with him? And work is NO EXCUSE! NONE! People on SI have spouses that still work with OP including mine (but we are sperated) and they don't have anything to do with the OP now.
Your having her check in should not be a big deal she is the one that did this mind fuck to you.
Why did she have K take her to work? Really, you were willing to let her use your car. Good excuse she came up with.
DON'T be snowed. Find out the truth. IF your gut didn't say "LOOK OUT" you would not be wondering all this crap that she is letting you wonder!