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I Can Relate     Print Topic    
User Topic: Betrayed Men - Part 10
RyeBread
♂ Member
Member # 37437
Default  Posted: 11:36 AM, June 13th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

But if I don't 180, then she acts like everything is hunky-dory in our world.

That's because she knows that she still has her claws in you and can manipulate you. If you are firm in your resolve to make yourself and your boundaries the priority she can't use the jedi mindtrick on you.

My STBXWW goes balistic on me when I re-enforce my stance and boundaries. Bullies can't handle an independant thinker and doer. They fear the loss of controling another person.


Let him that would move the world first move himself. - Socrates

Posts: 957 | Registered: Nov 2012 | From: Midwest
thinkingclear
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Member # 38884
Default  Posted: 11:42 AM, June 13th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

She even said on few occasions- and to think I shaved, you just ruined tonight

My wife is the same and uses a 'commodity' approach to our relationship. Actually, probably to all of her relationships. There seems to be a cost for everything. Sex is one her biggest 'commodities'. It's like she is trying to train me with positive reinforcement for good behavior - i.e. not making them think, bringing up conflict, avoiding making tough decisions, etc. It seems to be an inherent flaw in her development or understanding of a healthy and intimate relationship. She has no tolerance for criticism or any real or implied dissatisfaction with her behavior or actions.


BS - Me
WW - Her
10 month EA/PA

Posts: 211 | Registered: Apr 2013
Betrayed444
♂ Member
Member # 38389
Default  Posted: 12:02 PM, June 13th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Sex is one her biggest 'commodities'. It's like she is trying to train me with positive reinforcement for good behavior - i.e. not making them think, bringing up conflict, avoiding making tough decisions, etc. It seems to be an inherent flaw in her development or understanding of a healthy and intimate relationship

Actually sex is her only commodity hence her using it to obtain so many things in and out of our M.
When I cut WW off of the cards and bank account for wild spending and abandoning us she related in reference to OM that he gave her gas money or helped her by giving her money although he was a broke piece of shit. Didn't matter that I paid all the bills, mortgage, groceries etc.
whenever I bring up A I instantly forfeit pussy or a nice evening she planned or a good day. Or I ruined her good mood. And I can't walk after her and talk to her back. Useless.

Posts: 494 | Registered: Feb 2013
MC_Jack
♂ Member
Member # 35016
Default  Posted: 12:11 PM, June 13th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Thinkingclear, you are indeed thinking clearly. In some ways you are ahead of the game, and ahead of me. I did get a head start on my own self-discovery after d-day. I knew in my mind that I had not really been too happy with the M (M with kids is hard, you know?) and that I had a LOT of negative thinking in my head. Per that article link posted by Later I think, I was "unfaithful" to the marriage for a long time. My issues and I am sorting them out: denial and self-deception, FOO, you name it. BUT...

BUT...I trapped myself. I trapped myself through my own honest self-assessment to unconsciously take blame for the A and my WW not being happy. I now am also "thinkingclearly" and I see her shit going back to day 1 hand in hand with mine. I am starting to wonder how much of my behavior and thinking was a reaction to hers or alternatively just the co-creator of a sub-optimal relationship. Bottom line, I'm not rescuing her from her issues. I can bring water, but she has to drink.

The practical problem is that it is easier to understand and say what you don't want (or what is not enough) as opposed to specifying what you do want. This latter difficulty sets up the problem of false expectations. Really kind of playing the negative game that leads waywards into resentment and its spawn.

My wife also feels that if she meets my needs and puts on a 'display' of love that I should be satisfied. I guess I was before I knew it was only superficial. That's not enough now. Not by a long shot.


So, I ask what is enough? Are we setting the bar too high if we can't specifically state what is 'enough'?

If someone could help me figure out what 'enough' is, I would appreciate it. I am concerned that it is about just filling the bottomless hole in me...

-- Jack

[This message edited by MC_Jack at 12:13 PM, June 13th (Thursday)]


I am not a marriage counselor. I chose "MC Jack" in the spirit of a handle like "MC Hammer" or Young MC"...there is a lot of 'rapping' here, no? At the time I did not know what MC stood for on this site. Duh.

Posts: 792 | Registered: Mar 2012 | From: West Coast of Hopa-hopa-land
wert
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Member # 34478
Default  Posted: 12:27 PM, June 13th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

So, I ask what is enough? Are we setting the bar too high if we can't specifically state what is 'enough'?

Authenticity. No more bartering sex, making deals or poor coping. Only coming clean, fair dealing and honesty. That's enough.

take care...



Posts: 1364 | Registered: Jan 2012
Later
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Member # 39375
Default  Posted: 12:28 PM, June 13th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

So, I ask what is enough? Are we setting the bar too high if we can't specifically state what is 'enough'?

If someone could help me figure out what 'enough' is, I would appreciate it. I am concerned that it is about just filling the bottomless hole in me...

Fair question. Like you indicate, I think we can see what is NOT enough. But I can't honestly say that I know what would be enough.

It looks like I will not face that hurdle. I know that I would need to see:

Effort to figure out why we got here.

Effort to see the real me, not the cardboard cut out.

A true appreciation that the A is in an entirely different league than my "offenses" from 20 years ago that she grossly exagerates.

Sincere remorse that does not include the word "but."

An understanding of what I am going through, and appreciation that her selfish choice is what put me here.

That she has that "drive" to do the work.

[This message edited by Later at 12:28 PM, June 13th (Thursday)]


Posts: 384 | Registered: May 2013
atsenaotie
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Member # 27650
Default  Posted: 12:34 PM, June 13th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I am starting to wonder how much of my behavior and thinking was a reaction to hers or ...

This!!!, when FWW goes mining back in our M to find a 15 or 20 year old thing I did badly, it is almost always a case of my response to be paited black, or some other bad treatment due to her miss-perceptyions and personality defects.

I recall discussions with FWW when we were dating and she was always a pessimist and I was an optimist in life. I lost thet in the M, but it is coming back.

The things they write about a BPD spouse being dangerous to your own mental health is spot on in my opinion.


LTA BS 53
FWW 60
M 1990, dday 10-5-09
Reconciled

Posts: 3968 | Registered: Feb 2010 | From: FL
dday3302011
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Member # 32043
Default  Posted: 12:42 PM, June 13th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I read Uncertainone's thread, "tales from the dark side" too. There's lots of good stuff in there. Also one of her responses had this:

It's so hard to see the situations where the BS is doing the research, driving the recovery, dealing with anger, defensiveness, impatience, excuses, bullshit from the WS and posting for help and suggestions on how to get that WS to see, acknowledge, work on themselves.

If the wayward doesn't steer the process reconciliation is not possible, to me. It just isn't. Sure they may still live in the same house and interact as parents and co-habitants but how is that a healthy union?

I couldn't agree with this more. Some others here may not agree, but in my experience it rings completely true.

I didn't get a lot of defensiveness, impatience, etc. from my xWW. What I got was a lot of unknowns. A lot of "I'm not sure's". A lot of "I wouldn't have done it if we had a better marriage". I also got a lot of TT. A lot of "he didn't ask so I won't tell" and a shitload of a lack of forthcomingness. (that's not a real word but I like it)

The other thing I got was to be in the driver's seat of R. I like control. I like to fix things. xWW knew that. She took her place in the passenger seat and complied with everything I asked for. Granted she only complied in her unfuckingbelievably passive resistant way, but at least internally she could check the box next to "he asked for it and I did it". The real problem was that she was simply complying and I was giving her more credit than she deserved.

In reality though, she wasn't trying to fix her shit. She was right back in her comfort zone of passive control, and I was too fucking stupid to see it. But I kept reading here, kept feeling like something was missing, kept trying to understand just what the fuck I was dealing with.

And you know what I came up with? I was desperate. I was scared. I was the problem, not her. Her A was a deal breaker for me, plain and simple. Maybe if she got in the driver's seat of R it would have been different, but sheís not capable of that and it really didnít matter anymore. I had lost myself and was becoming a sacrificial lamb. Why? Because I was scared and worried about my kids. I was being a desperate pussy.
I tried to R for a year and a half. I failed. I am divorced now. My children are suffering because of that failure. My financial situation is much less certain than it was before. But it's okay. I tried really hard and I couldn't do it, and thatís rarely if ever happened to me before. I can blame it on her but she's the expert at the blame game. I fucking hate the blame game. I like to be accountable and responsible for my own shit.

ďthe hardest part about all of this is youĒ. SerJr said that to me a couple of years ago. Boy was he right. It gets confusing sometimes. We all get lost in the business of trying to understand exactly whatever it is that we've been married to. But that just confuses the issue in my opinion. And it takes away from the more pertinent questions at hand. The questions about ourselves that we deny, or forget, or try not to think about. Our warped sense of self. The way we used to be, or the way we always wanted to be. The empty path we've been on.

Yeah we need to know who we're married to. Knowing thyself is so much more important though.

I guess my point in all of this is what Uncertainone touched on in her excellent post and what SerJr said to me. It doesn't fucking matter what kind of WS you have. There is such a thing as healthy selfishness. You need to take care of you. You want to fix something? Fix you.


BH-41 (me)
xWW-42
M 11yrs, together 14
DDay 3-30-2011
2 kids, 9 & 7
1 yr LTA w/MOM
Divorced 5-16-2013

Posts: 235 | Registered: May 2011 | From: Northeast
Later
♂ Member
Member # 39375
Default  Posted: 1:03 PM, June 13th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

And you know what I came up with? I was desperate. I was scared. I was the problem, not her. Her A was a deal breaker for me, plain and simple. Maybe if she got in the driver's seat of R it would have been different, but sheís not capable of that and it really didnít matter anymore. I had lost myself and was becoming a sacrificial lamb. Why? Because I was scared and worried about my kids. I was being a desperate pussy.

Thanks for this. I believe the truth is that the A is a dealbreaker for me as well.

She is making it easy by her lack of drive, but I can't honestly say I would ever NOT divorce.

I am having trouble facing the finality of it. And yes, I am scared to death of what this is going to do my kids.

And, I don't want to be reassured they will be "okay." My worst fears may not be realized, but I know they will be affected.

To say they will not suffer sounds too much like the WW who says, "I did not think you would care because the M was dead."

So, I don't need BS -- I need courage to face reality and to deal with it the best way possible.


Posts: 384 | Registered: May 2013
Betrayed444
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Member # 38389
Default  Posted: 1:08 PM, June 13th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I am starting to wonder how much of my behavior and thinking was a reaction to hers or

Yeah what a vicious Circle. I was accused of being responsible for what she did since the day I met her. She re wrote our 13 year relationship and brought up things I had no recollection of. She dug deep.
In reality I saw things coming undone within the last couple of years since the death of her mother and brother. I tried to ask her if maybe my attitude was a unknowing response to her own passive aggressiveness. The more unhappy she became the more I was unhappy. She quit doing things around the house, she would purposely blow off her responsibilities and events with the kids. She knew I would be unhappy. In turn she blamed my attitude on her unhappiness. Like a circle jerk. I said what do you expect if your trying to make me unhappy, it's going to happen. This is a direct result of that only I had no idea I was being manipulated into it the. Ultimately blamed. In addition prescription pain medication entered the scene. I said to her that she was under the influence and people hooked on narcotics have a skewed perspective on the world. It destroys families. Her perspective really had no validity in a sense that she saw me as the enemy and was spending money on her habit and breaking our budget.

[This message edited by Betrayed444 at 1:12 PM, June 13th (Thursday)]


Posts: 494 | Registered: Feb 2013
noescape
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Member # 34888
Default  Posted: 1:33 PM, June 13th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

DDay, I could've written the first half of your post word for word (till the divorce bit)... And seems like we share a lot of concerns , just as Loay and you my major concern had always been about not failing my kids and this M (can't fail attitude)...

Also, yea, about being married to a BPD affecting the spouse rings so true to me. I accepted such a lot of crap in the M which I would've never considered 'normal', not by a far shot. But I played along to get along. I kept adjusting thinking "it's not THAT bad, besides, poor her, she had to deal with x, y or z". It's like the analogy of cooking live frogs; wherein you increase the temperature one degree at a time and they don't know they're being boiled (or something like that).

It's no generalisation that even my wife has the commodity approach to the relationship. Rather than an approach of generous reciprocity and graciousness, it's a "I paid or what do I get if I do x"... It's never been like that with my siblings (we're relatively close) or close friends, it's always been giving without expectations and sometimes even sacrificing for their happiness or well being. That's what I always though my M should look like. Sacrifice and service. Receive, not take.

BUT...I trapped myself. I trapped myself through my own honest self-assessment to unconsciously take blame for the A and my WW not being happy.

So true ... Shit, we all seem to make the same critical mistakes.


Posts: 739 | Registered: Feb 2012
wincing_at_light
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Member # 14393
Default  Posted: 1:54 PM, June 13th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

We had a fight this morning. She finally did it - blame me for the affair - "Is it any wonder why I cheated?". I made things worse, much worse, with my reply - "Isn't being a slut bad enough?" Without blameshifting, that is.

That may seriously be the best comeback I've ever heard.


Machiavellian idiot savant

Posts: 6690 | Registered: Apr 2007 | From: Indiana
ssi0318
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Member # 39225
Default  Posted: 1:59 PM, June 13th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I am having trouble facing the finality of it. And yes, I am scared to death of what this is going to do my kids.

And, I don't want to be reassured they will be "okay." My worst fears may not be realized, but I know they will be affected.

To say they will not suffer sounds too much like the WW who says, "I did not think you would care because the M was dead."

So, I don't need BS -- I need courage to face reality and to deal with it the best way possible.


This is exactly where I am. Biggest issue I'm having is the likelihood that I won't see my awesome kids every day.


Me-BS
Her-WW - probable NPD
M 11 years, T 14 years
3 kids, all under 10
DDay 3/18/13
I'm not happy - Nov-12

Posts: 32 | Registered: May 2013
thinkingclear
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Member # 38884
Default  Posted: 4:09 PM, June 13th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Holy Cow! Outstanding stuff gentlemen. I could easily pick a quote or two from everyoneís post today and piece together my own conclusion. So here goes nothing ...

MC_Jack

So, I ask what is enough? Are we setting the bar too high if we can't specifically state what is 'enough'?

I believe what wert and Later said sum it up pretty darn well.

Authenticity

I know that I would need to see:
Effort to figure out why we got here.
Effort to see the real me, not the cardboard cut out.
A true appreciation that the A is in an entirely different league than my "offenses" from 20 years ago that she grossly exaggerates.
Sincere remorse that does not include the word "but."
An understanding of what I am going through, and appreciation that her selfish choice is what put me here.
That she has that "drive" to do the work.

My answer, at least lately as it has taken me quite awhile to get here, is emotional maturity. I think all of the above and more prerequisites can all be summed up in that which has eluded many of our wives.

This rings so true with where I am personally Ö

It's so hard to see the situations where the BS is doing the research, driving the recovery, dealing with anger, defensiveness, impatience, excuses, bullshit from the WS and posting for help and suggestions on how to get that WS to see, acknowledge, work on themselves.
If the wayward doesn't steer the process reconciliation is not possible, to me. It just isn't. Sure they may still live in the same house and interact as parents and co-habitants but how is that a healthy union?

As does Ö

Because I was scared and worried about my kids.

And

Biggest issue I'm having is the likelihood that I won't see my awesome kids every day.

I was driving back to the office a few minutes ago and my three year old called me. He has been gone since Sunday and they are in the car driving back home right now. In his adorable little toddler voice he said ďHi daddy! Can I jump off the diving board to you when I get home?Ē My reply was ďSure kiddo. I would love too!Ē He followed with ďGreat daddy. I miss you and love you. See you soon.Ē

I know Iím being a Ö


desperate pussy

but I can get so angry that she has done this to us.

I know that my wife made some really horrendous choices. Honestly, the A isnít a dealbreaker to me. I thought it would be, but it turns out I feel that I can deal with healing those wounds with the proper care, treatment and time. To me the correct care and treatment comes from understanding myself (which I feel Iím already on that path) and an emotionally mature WW that is willing and capable of putting in the work and toil towards a reconciliation that is worthy of that innocent little boy. Time is going to tell if she will be able to step up to the plate and make the right choices. My main goal is to ensure that I have enough information to make an informed decision because I know some seriously important decisions are about to be made.

I agree that Ö

There is such a thing as healthy selfishness. You need to take care of you. You want to fix something? Fix you.

But I donít want my selfishness to trump the needs of my kids.

I can't thank everyone enough for sharing. This is great stuff. Shitty circumstances to get to know some seriously impressive men. I'm off to take a dip in the pool.

[This message edited by thinkingclear at 9:03 PM, June 13th (Thursday)]


BS - Me
WW - Her
10 month EA/PA

Posts: 211 | Registered: Apr 2013
64fleet
♂ Member
Member # 18710
Default  Posted: 4:26 PM, June 13th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

My answer, at least lately as it has taken me quite awhile to get here, is emotional maturity

yep, agree, but what do you do if that is impossible?
My fWW was sexually abused very young, and pretty much has the emotional maturity of the little girl who was molested. It is not likely to change, it hasn't in 47 yrs.


time wounds all heels

Posts: 5360 | Registered: Mar 2008 | From: deliverance land
wincing_at_light
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Member # 14393
Default  Posted: 4:47 PM, June 13th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

But I donít want my selfishness to trump the needs of my kids.

This is probably the most frequently expressed sentiment I've heard from men who have chosen to reconcile -- above and beyond what they might want to do, the safety and stability of their children's environment is their guiding principle.

I only point this out because I want you to remember it when society and your wives try to convince you that women are the spiritual and emotional core of the family. That whole sitcom message is bullshit, right up there with the lie that women have a higher relationship IQ than men.

When push comes to shove, remember that you know a whole site full of men who were willing to sacrifice everything for their kids instead of being the ones to burn it down assisted by some antiquated belief that daddy is optional and mom controls custody.


Machiavellian idiot savant

Posts: 6690 | Registered: Apr 2007 | From: Indiana
stilllovingher
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Member # 29959
Default  Posted: 5:06 PM, June 13th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

To me the correct care and treatment comes from understanding myself (which I feel Iím already on that path) and an emotionally mature WW that is willing and capable of putting in the work and toil towards a reconciliation that is worthy of that innocent little boy

^^^this is awesome^^^ the bolded part was unexpected and just freaking good to read.


The only difference between a butt kisser and a brown noser is depth perception.
I'm sure WAL would agree.

Posts: 2385 | Registered: Oct 2010 | From: still BFE, but now BFE, CA
Later
♂ Member
Member # 39375
Default  Posted: 5:38 PM, June 13th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

This reminds me, the other day my wife made some comment about how she felt I was hanging on "just for the kids."

Okay, I know the "just for" are the critical words there --- but damnit, being willing to sacrifice for our kids is not exactly a bad quality.

Contrast that with the OM who has nothing but contempt for the family.


Posts: 384 | Registered: May 2013
Sal1995
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Member # 39099
Default  Posted: 5:38 PM, June 13th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

To me the correct care and treatment comes from understanding myself (which I feel Iím already on that path) and an emotionally mature WW that is willing and capable of putting in the work and toil towards a reconciliation that is worthy of that innocent little boy

Awesome quote indeed. And perfectly sums up the reason I am currently trying to reconcile with my WW, even though doing so often feels like sucking on a very sour lemon 24/7. In my case, twin 6-year boys who love both their parents very much. Also, for my two teenage daughters, but at least they know what's going on and wouldn't be completely blindsided by a split.

My children's intact home is a great reason to give R my best effort. On the flip side, knowing that my wife was willing to risk not just her marriage and her dignity but also her children's future and stability to be with the POSOM, only makes it harder to respect and love her going forward. Which in turn makes R harder. It's a vicious cycle.

Whoever said that R isn't for the fainthearted really nailed it.


Me-45
WW-42
DDay 2/17/13, 10 month PA/EA
Final NC late Feb. '13
M - 18 years, together 19+
4 children

Reconciled


Posts: 1035 | Registered: Apr 2013 | From: Texas
dday3302011
♂ Member
Member # 32043
Default  Posted: 5:41 PM, June 13th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

When push comes to shove, remember that you know a whole site full of men who were willing to sacrifice everything for their kids instead of being the ones to burn it down assisted by some antiquated belief that daddy is optional and mom controls custody.

Word. I respect the hell out of the Menz who sacrifice for the benefit of their kids. I worked as hard or harder at R than anything else Iíve done in my life. It was when I realized she was playing a shell game on how to avoid true accountability that I finally understood she was not capable of the of change needed to have the kind of marriage that I wanted. That her only priority was what Iíd feared all along: self-protection at all costs.

@thinkingclear, I certainly didnít mean to insinuate that anyone is a ďdesperate pussyĒ if they decide to R. Thatís just the way that I felt about myself after a year and a half of banging my head against the wall.

The kids thing really sucks. Bad. My kids are struggling. They hate the D. They beg me to get back together with mommy. They cry, theyíre scared, they feel unsafe. Itís fucking awful. But everything will be okay in the long run. Itís not ideal and Iíd certainly prefer it wasnít this way, but it is what it is. We are divorced and I made the call. Itís awful to see them suffer, but Iím still glad I decided to D.

Whenever I make an important decision, I do something my father taught me back in the day: I ask myself, is there any possible way I will regret this decision? Once I was able to answer that question with a resounding ďNOĒ, I told her I was done. But it is not easy on the kids, and several of my fears about the impact the D would have on them are being realized.

I forget who the member here is, but one dude on SI has a tagline "Infidelity sucks shit". Definitely my favorite tagline, and definitely 1000% accurate.


BH-41 (me)
xWW-42
M 11yrs, together 14
DDay 3-30-2011
2 kids, 9 & 7
1 yr LTA w/MOM
Divorced 5-16-2013

Posts: 235 | Registered: May 2011 | From: Northeast
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