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I Can Relate     Print Topic    
User Topic: Betrayed Men - Part 10
Sal1995
♂ Member
Member # 39099
Default  Posted: 8:41 PM, June 12th (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Hey guys sorry I killed things here today.

Killed things? This thread has been rocking and you were a big part of it, DR. If you can't share your pain with your betrayed brothers, who can you share it with? Keep it coming. We understand and we're here for you.

ETA: Come hell or high water, if jjct throws a shindig next year, I'm there. Get your asses to Austin next year, boys. I want to meet every one of you. All of us can save up for a plane ticket or road trip with that much advanced planning. We can share hotel rooms to defray the costs. Let's just knock back a few cold ones and put some faces and real names with the SI names. It'll be epic.

[This message edited by Sal1995 at 8:52 PM, June 12th (Wednesday)]


Me-45
WW-42
DDay 2/17/13, 10 month PA/EA
Final NC late Feb. '13
M - 18 years, together 19+
4 children

Reconciled


Posts: 1028 | Registered: Apr 2013 | From: Texas
thinkingclear
♂ Member
Member # 38884
Default  Posted: 10:10 PM, June 12th (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I tried some nice local brew instead of the Stella's but kept with the seafood theme and had some nice sweet chili salmon. Maybe I need to use 5 pumps of Curve instead of my usual 2 because I wasn't feeling it tonight.

DefiledRage
Two years is a long time to keep that stuff bottled in. Don't do it and don't get kicked out. Let it flow. And in that spirit ...

I tend to lose focus when I ramble, so I'm not quite sure I made much sense earlier. My point and one of the issues I've been trying to deal with isn't so much the pre-affair and affair time, but how I've lived my life since I found out about the affair. Sure, I have second-guessed every little red flag that I now see for what they were when at the time I totally missed them. I went through a bargaining stage where all I wanted was to have found out earlier. Maybe limiting the number of 'encounters' would have somehow made it easier to 'get over it'. I don't believe there is such a thing as 'easier to get over' scenarios. She either kept her panties on or she didn't. It was just a phase of mourning the loss of my M.

I totally agree that there isn't a damn thing I, or anyone else here, could have done to prevent an A. Youíre right, maybe I could have curtailed or prevented one A, but it was going to happen one-way or the other. It might just not have been with the South American tennis player but another broken soul waiting for their opportunity. (Side note Ė if anyone likes to use jajaja instead of lol I might just lose it)

So my point was that I've been trying hard to convince myself that I can hold my head up high during what I once considered the dark days of the affair and the time leading up to the affair, because I wasn't made aware that the rules had changed. My vows were still being enforced and my commitment was still intact because I was making the choice to do so. We all have opportunities to fall if we look hard enough. My WW had something break inside of her that 'allowed' her to 'choose' to betray me. I was living honorably at the time - not perfect - not a saint - not without fault - but honorably non-the-less. So I've starting looking back at all of those times that made me ill just thinking about them before and now I'm starting to try to see life for what I think it was. Life. Bad stuff happens everyday and sometimes it just doesn't seem fair. As we know all too well, life isn't fair. Iím not excusing or condoning any mistakes they made. It was they who chose the selfish route. It was they who had immature coping skills, poor boundaries and made the conscious decision to betray us. It was they who didnít play by the rules.

My problem has been that I canít be as self-validating of my response and handling of myself during the time following the affair. (BTW Ė there is a great thread in wayward section about validation) I know Iím being hard on myself because this stuff really sucks, but I got stuck somewhere. I was in the dark before but now I know what she is capable of. As WAL has said she has shown me who she is and I should believe her. So, I think it has to do largely in me trying to reconcile my ability and willingness to Ďacceptí a non-remorseful spouse or at the very least a remorseful-deficient spouse.

If she would have left, Iím quite certain I would be well on my way to recovery and drinking beers with jjct. Iím certain Curve would work on those chicks. If she was truly remorseful and working on determining and fixing the broken pieces in her life, I also think Iíd be further along. Iím just trying to be self-aware enough to notice my own Ďbrokennessí. If it is staring me in the face I want to be able to see it. I just feel as if I could have done a better job at this whole mess after discovery and when I look back I want to be able to feel as if I was living during this time as honorably as I was before my true test began. My vows continue to be intact and my commitment has been tested but so far has stayed true. I just think the clock is ticking. Iíve never been one to put a time limit on how long a certain phase should last, but this phase of unremorsefulness has to be coming to a close. It has to because my self-respect and my ability to continue to live life authentically are on the line. I still love her and to this day Iíd still give my life for hers if it came down to it, but continuing on as it is will cost both of us our lives and so far that seems to be too high a price to pay.

So for me, it isnít really the past that plagues me. I still have mind-movies and canít stand a Spanish accent (no offence to anyone) and Iím not sure Iíll ever get those damn texts out of my head and Ö well, so I guess the past dose plague me a little. The future Iím sure is going to be ok Ö eventually. It is the present that I am trying to do well with. Isnít that one of the points in life? Didnít Yoda tell Luke something about keeping his focus on the present? Donít worry about tomorrow as tomorrow has enough to worry about already.

I like myself. I like that I am taking care of my family and myself. I like that Iím taking the time to try to Ďdo things rightí. I like that I am looking for guidance and support as I navigate these unpredictable waters. I like that Iím willing to give her a second chance. I like quite a bit, but I just donít like being asked to do a job I wasnít qualified to do. Still I do my best and learn from my mistakes.

Exactly what B444 said -
"We're not experts. We adapt and overcome. Making decisions on the fly.then we report back here and compare notes."

It has to do in part to one of my tendencies in life to try and stack the deck in my favor. I don't cheat, but I also know my strengths and weaknesses. I don't like to get involved in something if I don't consider myself well versed in the subject or proficient at the task. That is part of the reason I lurked here for over a month. I was getting my footing, getting to know the players and getting some deficiencies in my knowledge filled in. For example, I wouldn't challenge B444 to an arm wrestling match. Not sure that would serve me well, but I just might have a chance if we had to solve a calculus problem. (I was in EE before Med School). I wouldn't challenge WAL to an impromptu essay or test his coding knowledge, but well honestly I haven't quite figured out what I'd challenge WAL to yet (A big Wayne's World - "We're not worthy" salute to you sir). I know jjct and everyone else here could drink me under the table. I've been off balance during all of this because I haven't felt I had enough 'expertise' to do the job correctly. Just trying to fix that problem one topic at a time.

[This message edited by thinkingclear at 10:57 PM, June 12th (Wednesday)]


BS - Me
WW - Her
10 month EA/PA

Posts: 211 | Registered: Apr 2013
jjct
♂ Member
Member # 17484
Default  Posted: 6:21 AM, June 13th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

OBX = Outer Banks, NC. Kitty Hawk, Wright's Beach, Kill Devil Hills, etc...

They are planning an Austin gtg for late September 2013 down in F&G coinciding w the Pecan Festival. Be cool if anyone could make it...

FTR, at 5'7 (AND A HALF DAMMIT!)- drinking anyone under the table Does. Not. Happen. (Please dear sweet baby Bacchus, let me not be known for that!)

trying to reconcile my ability and willingness to Ďacceptí a non-remorseful spouse or at the very least a remorseful-deficient spouse.

I understand this very well.
Keep listening to yourself. Feel your gut.
The soul-sucking self-compromise it takes from you to manage living with someone with no empathy will, in time, appear in stark contrast to times you are away from managing the drama.
It will appear to give you a sense of peace.

Not having to walk on eggshells is liberating.

Crave the company of authentic persons (despite our common failures and brokenness).
Beginning with you.


Posts: 6018 | Registered: Dec 2007 | From: texas
Tred
♂ Member
Member # 34086
Default  Posted: 7:23 AM, June 13th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

FTR, at 5'7 (AND A HALF DAMMIT!)

I knew there was a reason we saw eye to eye!

As for OBX, you got a place yet? They start booking up about a year in advance for the best places, unless you want to end up in Duck or the quieter places where everything is a drive. I'll be bringing my golf clubs and fishing tackle.


Married: 16 years (14 @JFO)
D-Day: 11/09/11
"Ohhhhh...shut up Tred!" - NOT the official SI motto (DS)

Posts: 3303 | Registered: Dec 2011
thinkingclear
♂ Member
Member # 38884
Default  Posted: 7:36 AM, June 13th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Please dear sweet baby Bacchus, let me not be known for that!

Certainly not trying to typecast you or anyone else. We will have to revisit that if the movie that has been discussed ever makes it past the rough draft stage. Really I was implying that I'm a light weight. The four beers I've had this week of no drama are the first I've had in about a year.

Not having to walk on eggshells is liberating.

^^^ Yep. Agree completely as evidenced by a really relaxing week.

The internal battle I've been facing is managing the desire/need to deal with ...

The soul-sucking self-compromise it takes from you to manage living with someone with no empathy

versus the feeling that letting go of the M would allow POSOM to be an influence in the life of my 3 year old son. Daddy is being very protective and territorial.

[This message edited by thinkingclear at 8:04 AM, June 13th (Thursday)]


BS - Me
WW - Her
10 month EA/PA

Posts: 211 | Registered: Apr 2013
noescape
♂ Member
Member # 34888
Default  Posted: 7:50 AM, June 13th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I like that I am taking care of my family and myself. I like that Iím taking the time to try to Ďdo things rightí. I like that I am looking for guidance and support as I navigate these unpredictable waters. I like that Iím willing to give her a second chance. I like quite a bit, but I just donít like being asked to do a job I wasnít qualified to do. Still I do my best and learn from my mistakes.

Well said bro, well said.

On the subject of remorse-deficient WWs, what is it that bothers those here the most? I know that I couldn't care less for another A, let her-as far as I am concerned, she's already a dry adulterer... I know what I need to do this time around if that happens.

Whats more challenging with that kind of spouse is the fucking day to day stuff. I remain civil and pull my weight (and a lot more); but the disrespect, selfishness and utter disregard for others in the family (including my kids) leaves me extremely bitter. Heck, being civil, financially supportive and once in a while being accommodating to someone who has such disregard for me day in and day out does get to me at times. I dunno about the rest, but the expert PA she is makes the 180 a godsend for her. Which, after a long time, I've figured out is of no consequence since the 180 is for me... yet it seems like another form of reward for her continued brokenness and lack of introspection.


Posts: 739 | Registered: Feb 2012
nomoreplease
♂ Member
Member # 32755
Default  Posted: 8:03 AM, June 13th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

The soul-sucking self-compromise it takes from you to manage living with someone with no empathy will, in time, appear in stark contrast to times you are away from managing the drama.
It will appear to give you a sense of peace.

Not having to walk on eggshells is liberating.

Itís sad that some of us (most?) have been living in this for so long that the peace and freedom can seem terrifying. Not having the drama to manage can seem lonelyÖuntil you donít have to deal with it. I know I was there.


'one walks away saying "I fought to save God's ideal," and the other must always admit, "I fought to destroy God's ideal!"'

Posts: 343 | Registered: Jul 2011
Sal1995
♂ Member
Member # 39099
Default  Posted: 8:57 AM, June 13th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

My WW seems to drift from genuine remorse to a state where she doesn't even try to feign empathy. It'll drive you crazy. The 180 is the only way I can maintain sanity.

We have a MC session for later this morning. I don't want to go.


Me-45
WW-42
DDay 2/17/13, 10 month PA/EA
Final NC late Feb. '13
M - 18 years, together 19+
4 children

Reconciled


Posts: 1028 | Registered: Apr 2013 | From: Texas
noescape
♂ Member
Member # 34888
Default  Posted: 9:16 AM, June 13th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Sounds like the PA "push/pull" dynamic to me. Hence I completely gave up on MC....

Posts: 739 | Registered: Feb 2012
noescape
♂ Member
Member # 34888
Default  Posted: 9:21 AM, June 13th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

You should read what uncertainone posted in wayward recently. The part that jumped out (and might be beneficial for most of us in limbo to read) was what she had to say about "drive" (to fix oneself). It can't be external it shouldn't be dictated by others interests (kids family husband etc..) it should come from within, without which we have the scenario you describe and I've faced many times over the past 3 years since DDay. You see engagement for short bursts or because of the MC or whatever but then she pulls back leaving you adrift. Which is why the 180 and detaching is your only friend.

Posts: 739 | Registered: Feb 2012
Later
♂ Member
Member # 39375
Default  Posted: 9:32 AM, June 13th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Good morning guys.

My wife and I had a discussion last night, and it looks like I have all the information I need to move on. I had printed out an excellent post on here about what WS's need to know about what we are going through. I swear, it looked like someone wrote that after talking to me. Amazing how the psychology of the affects of an A is so well known and predictable.

Anyway, I wanted her to understand why I could be kind one minute and then trigger. About good days/hours and bad.

I wanted her to understand that I am not playing a game with her. That what I am going through is real, and totally normal.

I also wanted her to see that R is hard. These things do not simply go away on their own. I wanted her to evaluate whether she really wanted to do what it would take.

I admit my timing was bad, she was stressed out. However, the timing is always bad for her when it comes to dealing with this.

She got pissed. Said she would read it later.

Anyway, we kept talking. When I told her I was genuinely trying to determine whether she felt remorse, she gritted her teeth and said "I have told you I was sorry and you said you believed me." That's true, but it's also true that some time after that I told her I felt I had been wrong. That I now recognize there is a difference between regret and remorse.

Long story short, I tried my best to explain that R is a difficult road that may not be successful even if both parties have their minds right. And, that if either party is not really prepared to do what it takes then I don't see the need for prolonging the pain.

She was not hearing me at all. Just kept going back to how I obviously have my mind made up. Threw in some blameshifting, gaslighting etc.

Maybe she sincerely believes that meeting each others needs (as they would be if there had been no A) is enough. It doesn't really matter, I know better and I am not going to drag myself through the pain when I know the odds of long term success are so low with a rugsweeping approach.


Posts: 384 | Registered: May 2013
thinkingclear
♂ Member
Member # 38884
Default  Posted: 10:18 AM, June 13th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Later

It is so amazing how similar our wives behave and think. I feel for you because I guarantee I will be having a similar discussion with the exact same defensive mechanism on display real soon.

Where do they get the idea that 'remorse' is a one time thing? My WW has told me several times when I've brought up the issue of a lack of remorse that "That's it, isn't it. You just want to hold this over me for the rest of my life. I'm never going to make you happy. Never going to be good enough for you."

I hesitate to give her anymore 'proding' or information that I would expect to help her make 'the right choice'. I certainly am not ready for her to be on SI. I like my little safe haven. I'm just not sure my WW is capable of remorse and empathy. It has probably been that way all the time, I just wasn't aware of it until now.

My wife also feels that if she meets my needs and puts on a 'display' of love that I should be satisfied. I guess I was before I knew it was only superficial. That's not enough now. Not by a long shot.

Stay strong and good luck.

[This message edited by thinkingclear at 10:21 AM, June 13th (Thursday)]


BS - Me
WW - Her
10 month EA/PA

Posts: 211 | Registered: Apr 2013
StillGoing
♂ Member
Member # 28571
Default  Posted: 10:25 AM, June 13th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Saw this, had to post it. Hope y'all are doing well.


ďFate is a fickle bitch who dotes on irony.Ē

Posts: 7110 | Registered: May 2010 | From: USA
Later
♂ Member
Member # 39375
Default  Posted: 10:29 AM, June 13th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I dunno about the rest, but the expert PA she is makes the 180 a godsend for her. Which, after a long time, I've figured out is of no consequence since the 180 is for me... yet it seems like another form of reward for her continued brokenness and lack of introspection.


I agree completely. I like the "understanding the 180" post much better than the original statement.

To me, the original statement sounds too much like a way to manipulate the other person. IMO, it gets the reader to focus too much on the outcome. This is especially true for someone new, who has not developed any sort of understanding of fixing one's self.

IMO there should be a big warning, "this if for you -- don't look over your shoulder to see if the spuse is following. Let go of the outcome."

It's why I don't really care for it when I see someone say, "you should do the 180 on him/her." I think it's better stated, "you should 180 for yourself."

But more to your point, I agree they are often all too happy to have you STFU about that issue.

To the extent it is an appropriate tool for managing their progress, I think it should really be reserved to a (perhaps unspoken), "oh you wnat to re-engage, well these are the boundaries. If not, I am going to keep doing my thing. No biggie."

Someone feel free to say so if I have missed the mark.


Posts: 384 | Registered: May 2013
Tred
♂ Member
Member # 34086
Default  Posted: 10:33 AM, June 13th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

SG - WAL is going to love that one!


Married: 16 years (14 @JFO)
D-Day: 11/09/11
"Ohhhhh...shut up Tred!" - NOT the official SI motto (DS)

Posts: 3303 | Registered: Dec 2011
Later
♂ Member
Member # 39375
Default  Posted: 10:35 AM, June 13th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

TC, what I printed out for her was just the text -- it did not indentify where it came from. I also like having the ability to think things through here on my own.

Also, I had some concern about "spoon feeding" her. However, that post was so good and so on point I felt it was worth it.

It really would be nice of they were the ones bringing insight to the table.

Oh well, appreciate it. Good luck to you as well.


Posts: 384 | Registered: May 2013
Sal1995
♂ Member
Member # 39099
Default  Posted: 10:43 AM, June 13th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Nice, SG. The Oxford Comma is definitely our friend. I didn't realize it had a name.

I dunno about the rest, but the expert PA she is makes the 180 a godsend for her. Which, after a long time, I've figured out is of no consequence since the 180 is for me... yet it seems like another form of reward for her continued brokenness and lack of introspection.

Later, noescape, the opposite seems to be happening with my WW. The 180 makes her a nutcase, I'm pretty sure she isn't getting any pleasure from its implementation. But if I don't 180, then she acts like everything is hunky-dory in our world.

We had a fight this morning. She finally did it - blame me for the affair - "Is it any wonder why I cheated?". I made things worse, much worse, with my reply - "Isn't being a slut bad enough?" Without blameshifting, that is.

Maybe I should have just asked why should she be the first person in her family to not abuse their spouse and destroy their marriage. Or maybe I should have just kept my mouth shut and not said anything. I'd go with the last option if a do-over was possible.

I called the MC and left a message cancelling my participation in today's session - the WW was still free to go. The MC called back, and in a nice, grandmotherly way, told me that my attendance was expected.

On top of all of this, I have professional obligations out the ass. I'm glad the practice is finally rocking, but trying to maintain it during this nightmare takes everything I have.

Thanks for hearing me out, guys.


Me-45
WW-42
DDay 2/17/13, 10 month PA/EA
Final NC late Feb. '13
M - 18 years, together 19+
4 children

Reconciled


Posts: 1028 | Registered: Apr 2013 | From: Texas
stilllovingher
♂ Member
Member # 29959
Default  Posted: 10:44 AM, June 13th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

thinkingclear,
I just feel as if I could have done a better job at this whole mess after discovery and when I look back I want to be able to feel as if I was living during this time as honorably as I was before my true test began. My vows continue to be intact and my commitment has been tested but so far has stayed true.

if the above is true, and I'm sure it is...you have done well. You have nothing to be ashamed of.
We do the best we can and you have done better than most.

WWS (and others)up thread about lost time and wanting to forget, its truth for many of us, but I suspect it doesn't HAVE to be like that.
If you are new to this and reading here, you have a headstart, a leg up, use it wisely!
Live your life! Live it in a manner that you WANT to remember.
Because the truth is, your wife's affair(s) can only be your defining moment if you let it be.



The only difference between a butt kisser and a brown noser is depth perception.
I'm sure WAL would agree.

Posts: 2385 | Registered: Oct 2010 | From: still BFE, but now BFE, CA
Betrayed444
♂ Member
Member # 38389
Default  Posted: 11:27 AM, June 13th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

She was not hearing me at all. Just kept going back to how I obviously have my mind made up. Threw in some blameshifting, gaslighting etc.

Where do they get the idea that 'remorse' is a one time thing? My WW has told me several times when I've brought up the issue of a lack of remorse that "That's it, isn't it. You just want to hold this over me for the rest of my life. I'm never going to make you happy. Never going to be good enough for you."

I swear to god it's the same damn alien.
I get the same exact defense mechanism.
She'll say I already told you, how long are you going to punish me, are you going to bring this up forever, your trying to gather evidence to use against me. Haven' t I been through enough with jail etc?!
She could be in a good mood when I try to broach the subject to instant defiant bitch just like that.
She even said on few occasions- and to think I shaved, you just ruined tonight. Usually she'll storm off and break contact. Rugsweep , gas light, and retreat in anger. Anything to get away.
Ill send her a link or copy and text a thread from SI and she'll respond" what more crap from that stupid website with those crazy people"
I have no idea how to counteract this. I mentioned earlier that I think it's meant to scare us off and quit asking altogether for fear of inciting a riot. Get bit enough you stay away.
I sent her a link today that she said she would look at. She doesn't know my pseudonym. It was in wayward side about details.
Well see

[This message edited by Betrayed444 at 11:32 AM, June 13th (Thursday)]


Posts: 494 | Registered: Feb 2013
Betrayed444
♂ Member
Member # 38389
Default  Posted: 11:29 AM, June 13th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

We had a fight this morning. She finally did it - blame me for the affair - "Is it any wonder why I cheated?". I made things worse, much worse, with my reply - "Isn't being a slut bad enough?" Without blameshifting, that is.

Big SAl
Bravo! Well done

Posts: 494 | Registered: Feb 2013
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