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I Can Relate     Print Topic    
User Topic: Betrayed Men - Part 10
wert
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Member # 34478
Default  Posted: 2:41 PM, June 11th (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Today things are not as "easy" for her as they once were. She has to do at least 50% of domestic stuff and the doormat guy got replaced with a distant, unromantic, and angry one. What a sweet deal she threw away.

Yeah, that was true for a while for me. It's changing now though. I am more open to her because I am accepting the work she is doing as valid true change. She is not all healed nor acting like it. She talks about life as work and constant progress not as some end goal. That stuff is encouraging, because you know shit is hard sometimes and not the candy cane colored world she was dreamily walking through. Her realization of that has helped me a lot. More importantly it has helped her. Not only do I see clearly, I am growing more confident that she is.

It is odd my W doesn't get along well with women either.

Oh there are a lot of commonalities. Low self esteem, projection, getting a long better with men, AODA problems, yada yada. If you aren't in R or even if you just don't want to, I think its great to lay back on those and write the story how you want. If you R, IMO, get real specific with your WW. Don't generalize, but instead make your world yours. Make sure she is defining hers and explaining it to you. She owes you that much if she really wants to make a go of it.

take it easy....



Posts: 1364 | Registered: Jan 2012
noescape
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Member # 34888
Default  Posted: 2:42 PM, June 11th (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

so other than the usual "thats exactly what my WW is like", do you guys know of any studies/insights on the 2 obviously linked phenomenon of: 1. the low self esteem pandemic amongst women and 2. the emasculation of men - both of which are major contributors to the As we've all been visited with?

Posts: 739 | Registered: Feb 2012
Betrayed444
♂ Member
Member # 38389
Default  Posted: 2:43 PM, June 11th (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I have used the term validation vampire. She had to get regular validation or she would die. After sucking me dry she went onto to someone else.

Thank you
We actually have a name for this phenomena now!


I did this in 2007 when I thought we were having M problems. FWW convinced me that I was broken and needed help. I went to IC for 6 months, FWW went on to a new OM for the next 2+ years.

Makes perfect sense. She had to have proof that you were the crazy one. This justified her reason for fucking someone else AND talking shit about you.

Posts: 494 | Registered: Feb 2013
Betrayed444
♂ Member
Member # 38389
Default  Posted: 2:47 PM, June 11th (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I am implementing the 3 text rule immediately.

Slater it works!!
Also it applies to phone calls as well
And it is effective on ALL women regardless of relationship.
It presents a picture that your not clingy, easy, or so boring that your readily available. If applied to people with low self esteem they will only chase you more
So with a WW that is gold
I ignored all my wife's calls and text today.
After her 4th attempt I simply responded
"Hey You!!"
Came home and she treated me to 2 boxes of Starbucks Sumatra for the keurig
Cinnamon and raisin bagels with cream cheese.
And she was almost half naked scrubbing the tub, shower, and bathroom. Remember... Yesterday she started to get nasty and I put my foot down in a firm voice. I let it go and Then we worked out in the gym.
It's all about self respect.

[This message edited by Betrayed444 at 2:53 PM, June 11th (Tuesday)]


Posts: 494 | Registered: Feb 2013
noescape
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Member # 34888
Default  Posted: 2:47 PM, June 11th (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Make sure she is defining hers and explaining it to you. She owes you that much if she really wants to make a go of it.

hi wert, i've been all in for R for a long long time now. The rub is *i* cant "make" her do anything (and believe me, its not for want of trying). Thats all on her, isnt it? or am i missing something here?


Posts: 739 | Registered: Feb 2012
Tred
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Member # 34086
Default  Posted: 2:58 PM, June 11th (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

The rub is *i* cant "make" her do anything

Nope. That's all on her. Read UO's post in Wayward today. A couple of gems in there.


Married: 16 years (14 @JFO)
D-Day: 11/09/11
"Ohhhhh...shut up Tred!" - NOT the official SI motto (DS)

Posts: 3305 | Registered: Dec 2011
noescape
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Member # 34888
Default  Posted: 3:09 PM, June 11th (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

already did

it was a real gem


Posts: 739 | Registered: Feb 2012
numb&dumb
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Member # 28542
Default  Posted: 3:14 PM, June 11th (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Wert-

I get that. Today is just one of those days again. I needed to vent a little.

She got all high and mighty with me last night. Giving me a lecture about something in a very condescending way. (not A related or even M related).

Nuclear option utilized. It was time to take her down a notch and remind her that people can make mistakes. Not sure if it made me more angry that she hasn't progressed more or the argument itself.

My world is fine, but when she tries to define it for me, it pisses me off. It reminds me of how she used to be all the time.


Me-35 her-35

DS 1, DD 6
Dday 8/31/11. ONS that occurred 3 years earlier. Lied to for 3 years.

Every truth comes to light in a long enough timeline.


Posts: 2457 | Registered: May 2010
wert
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Member # 34478
Default  Posted: 3:19 PM, June 11th (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

noescape - You are right you can't make her do anything. You can be present, ask questions, and not be satisfied your W until she really does the internal work and stops living in fairy land. In other words, 'make sure' for you that she is who you want. All of our bull shit meters are improved. Use it. I was outlining some of the bench marks my W has hit that have helped me decide that she is worth staying M'd to.

I guess what I was getting at is that for me, I don't want to be M'd to someone who doesn't make those changes - the risk is too big for secondary offence.

Define your world. Let her define hers. Then see if she measures up. I mean there are conversation that are littered in the middle of all that, checking in, etc. Ask her about her internal dialog? Is she in IC? What are her boundaries with M? Do you agree with all that stuff? It's go time for WW IMO. Either break on the ball or I will kick you ass off the pitch!

take care...



Posts: 1364 | Registered: Jan 2012
wert
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Member # 34478
Default  Posted: 3:20 PM, June 11th (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

My world is fine, but when she tries to define it for me, it pisses me off. It reminds me of how she used to be all the time.

It would piss me off to.



Posts: 1364 | Registered: Jan 2012
64fleet
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Member # 18710
Default  Posted: 3:28 PM, June 11th (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Today things are not as "easy" for her as they once were. She has to do at least 50% of domestic stuff and the doormat guy got replaced with a distant, unromantic, and angry one. What a sweet deal she threw away.

true, I do no housework now, nothing, nada, except for washing/drying my own clothing. House is a filthy mess, but I don't care.


time wounds all heels

Posts: 5359 | Registered: Mar 2008 | From: deliverance land
thinkingclear
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Member # 38884
Default  Posted: 3:34 PM, June 11th (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

If I think about starting to date again,

All of our bull shit meters are improved. Use it.

Is it just me, or does it seem as if it came to a divorce, that it would be so much easier to date now that we have been taught some hard lessons. Our eyes are wide open and what used to get by us won't fly anymore. Maybe I'm giving myself too much credit, but I think it would be much more likely I could pick out "a winner" with this extra education. After months of IC and along with the school of hard knocks, it seems that I would be a fabulous husband to someone but for some reason the current wife fails to or refuses to or is unable to see it. Or maybe I am Will Smith talking to my dog in a zombie infested Manhattan.


BS - Me
WW - Her
10 month EA/PA

Posts: 211 | Registered: Apr 2013
wert
♂ Member
Member # 34478
Default  Posted: 3:44 PM, June 11th (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Is it just me, or does it seem as if it came to a divorce, that it would be so much easier to date now that we have been taught some hard lessons.

I get that. About six months out I was thinking about D and that was a reason. I wanted to test out my new wings. That was about the same time she went on AD's and really started turning around. It was really close to happening. In some ways, I think about it as the 'one who got away...' or the direction I could have done. I don't think about that much now...she is pretty cool.

take care...



Posts: 1364 | Registered: Jan 2012
wincing_at_light
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Member # 14393
Default  Posted: 3:45 PM, June 11th (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

so other than the usual "thats exactly what my WW is like", do you guys know of any studies/insights on the 2 obviously linked phenomenon of: 1. the low self esteem pandemic amongst women and 2. the emasculation of men - both of which are major contributors to the As we've all been visited with?

That is a great question right there -- and I suspect there's something seriously deeper at work than "misery loves company."

I've got an answer for it from our situation, but I'm not certain it generalizes. In essence, my wife told me herself that despite the fact I'd just gotten out from under encephalitic meningitis, had to re-learn how to write my own name, re-teach my job to myself, had always worked two jobs to support our family, etc., she and the OM had agreed that I had it too easy in life. I had too much confidence and success just fell into my lap.

As she put it one night, I needed to be taken down a notch or two so I could see how hard life was for regular people. But like I said, I don't think that generalizes -- but I also think noescape is onto something with this idea of low self-esteem plus emasculation of men being interrelated.

This is why the pedestal discussion like they're having in Wayward right now is always interesting to me when it pops up. I have ived much of my life with the standard that I was not allowed to fail: I was a preacher's kid, a valedictorian, a summa cum laude. I worked full time to support my family all the way through college.

I've lived with no margin for error for as long as I can remember...and I do not fail.

The difference is that *I'm* the one who holds myself to that. I'm not a perfectionist, and I fail to meet my own internal standard all the time. I am a lousy Christian, for example. I don't tithe as generously as I should. I don't give enough of my time and talents. I'm lazy more often than I should be. I have a foul mouth. I should be more authentically empathetic and helpful to others as a first respons than I am.

That's my shit that I carry: a million little failures a day -- not fast enough, thorough enough, insightful enough, caring enough. I can and should do better.

But that's okay: tomorrow is a new day, and another opportunity to work harder/smarter at it.

And yet, the people around me believed that it was all cake and I was being unfairly rewarded by the universe.

[This message edited by wincing_at_light at 4:18 PM, June 11th (Tuesday)]


Machiavellian idiot savant

Posts: 6690 | Registered: Apr 2007 | From: Indiana
Sal1995
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Member # 39099
Default  Posted: 3:55 PM, June 11th (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Careful, thinkingclear. You're trying to make sense of the senseless, and it can make your head explode.

I do think our bullshit meters have improved and it would be somewhat easier to pick out a "winner," but only if you can get past the initial phase where both of you are on your best behavior and see the real woman. You'd have to get past how hot she looks, how great she makes you feel, and how nice she seems and keep your mind open while you examine her FOO, her beliefs, the way she seems to handle stress and conflict, etc. By that time, you might be well into a relationship and completely PW'd.

Assuming the vag is your kryptonite, that is (nod to our brother B444).

As for your wife not seeing what a fabulous husband you are and always have been, that's the part that will drive you crazy. Trying to get into the mind of a wayward and understand what makes them tick is a fools errand IMO. But we all try to do it. I've asked all the questions, mostly to myself - "How could she do it?", "Can't she see how well I've treated her?", "Can't she see what a good dad and provider I've been?" We're not perfect, but my guess is that most of us BM are functional people with normal coping mechanisms. Problem is, our WWs are not those people. I mean, reacting to marital problems, real or perceived, by screwing someone outside of the marriage is radically dysfunctional, in my opinion. How do you make sense of that? Leave it to the professionals I guess.

No good advice here, just my observations. I'm only 4 months into my education, so what the hell do I know.


Me-45
WW-42
DDay 2/17/13, 10 month PA/EA
Final NC late Feb. '13
M - 18 years, together 19+
4 children

Reconciled


Posts: 1035 | Registered: Apr 2013 | From: Texas
64fleet
♂ Member
Member # 18710
Default  Posted: 4:21 PM, June 11th (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

The vag is no Krytonite to me any longer. I can take it or leave it.

Maybe that means I'm on the other side of this now, I dunno.


time wounds all heels

Posts: 5359 | Registered: Mar 2008 | From: deliverance land
thinkingclear
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Member # 38884
Default  Posted: 4:28 PM, June 11th (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I hear you loud and clear. It isn't so much an attempt at figuring it out. Just some pain working its way out. I can acknowledge my inadequacies in the M in the past. I think I've been a pretty darn good husband, not perfect, but good enough. Just as we all have been. I know we both brought issues into our M. It is just that I am starting to feel "healthy" and "worthy" of a reasonable partner. I don't really want to have to date again. Not afraid of it but don't want it. I'm still working towards R but it's going to take two for it to work. Problem is I didn't see or understand my real "deal breakers" until recently.

only if you can get past the initial phase where both of you are on your best behavior and see the real woman. You'd have to get past how hot she looks, how great she makes you feel, and how nice she seems and keep your mind open while you examine her FOO, her beliefs, the way she seems to handle stress and conflict, etc. By that time, you might be well into a relationship and completely PW'd.

This is exactly some of the stuff we've been discussing in IC. How did I miss so many warning signs? What was I getting that allowed me to overlook things? Don't get me wrong, I like sex as much as the next guy, but really it is respect that means a lot to me. My WW has always appeared to be respectful up until about 2-3 months before her A. I noticed the diminished respect before anything else. Unfortunately it is hard to disrespect someone more than what they have done to us. To a certain degree, it has also been about me understanding and working through the self-betrayal and self-disrespect that I've demonstrated towards myself in how I've handled it all. I'm getting stronger and better at it, but it sure does test my patience sometimes. It is the best club I never wanted to join.

WAL

Excellent points as always. I heard similar things from my WW. Before the A, I was the smartest, hardest working, and most dedicated man she had ever known. Life was too easy for me. Except for the current situation it is hard to remember really failing much in life, at least not at the big things. Not from the outside looking in. In reality, I too feel as if I fall short of my ideal every day. Each day is a new day and I forget about my failures pretty quickly and move on. At least that has been the plan Live and learn.

[This message edited by thinkingclear at 4:44 PM, June 11th (Tuesday)]


BS - Me
WW - Her
10 month EA/PA

Posts: 211 | Registered: Apr 2013
ReunitePangea
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Member # 37529
Default  Posted: 5:32 PM, June 11th (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

she and the OM had agreed that I had it too easy in life. I had too much confidence and success just fell into my lap.

As she put it one night, I needed to be taken down a notch or two so I could see how hard life was for regular people. But like I said, I don't think that generalizes -- but I also think noescape is onto something with this idea of low self-esteem plus emasculation of men being interrelated.

WAL that really hits home with me, maybe it doesn't generalize but I can very much relate. Now that my eyes are open - I am really thinking that my WWs LTA was as to knock me down a few notches in her own mind. I too do not consider myself a perfectionist but do not fail often. While my wife & I are both college educated, I make significantly more $ than she does. I am competitive and if we were to play a game of cards or anything I often win. I have knowledge on many things and it clearly bothers her if I know about something she doesnt have a clue on.

I think she used her A to basically say "I'll show you" and "you think your so smart but you don't have a clue" in her own mind. That boosted her ego to be able to pull it off without me knowing. There is a discussion in Reconciliation regarding power dynamics that I am finding interesting. I think that whole topic is not discussed enough on SI as it pertains to these A's. I'll give my WW credit, I didn't have the slightest clue what she was doing. Right after Dday one of her first observations was that she really felt she lost some power/control in the relationship. Getting the power balance correct in the relationship so that all parties are happy is a difficult task I think.


BS - Me 38
WS - Wife 39
D-Day - Oct 12
Married 10 years
OM1 - 12-year LTA
OM2 - 9 month A turned into open relationship with couple for another 1 1/2 years

Posts: 406 | Registered: Nov 2012
stilllovingher
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Member # 29959
Default  Posted: 5:45 PM, June 11th (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

from what I've been told,
my wife didn't talk shit about me to AP.
She told him how I had "donated a kidney, was trying to become a cop, was a good person and really didn't deserve this(her cheating).

but that "she deserved it".

still trying to figure that one out.


The only difference between a butt kisser and a brown noser is depth perception.
I'm sure WAL would agree.

Posts: 2385 | Registered: Oct 2010 | From: still BFE, but now BFE, CA
Betrayed444
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Member # 38389
Default  Posted: 6:39 PM, June 11th (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

As she put it one night, I needed to be taken down a notch or two so I could see how hard life was for regular people. But like I said, I don't think that generalizes -- but I also think noescape is onto something with this idea of low self-esteem plus emasculation of men being interrelated.

Definitely another part of the pattern.
My wife is a HS graduate. Dropped out of first semester of college. No real skills. SAHM
I am college educated. Graduated from a vast amount of military schools. Most Honor graduate. Distinguished grad from the Drill Sgt academy. Drill Sgt of the year. Airborne, Air assault, expert infantryman, Sniper school. I landed my current job after testing against 30,000 applicants for only 100 positions. I push myself hard and strive to be among the best.
She has said she felt like she hasnt done anything.
I'm outgoing and I have many friends.
She does not.
Over times I guess she has been slowly emasculating me.
When we met I believed in her. Stood by her. I knew she had issues but I was confident I could handle it.
I referred to us as beauty and the beast. I'm probably the only guy that could handle her this long. She never had a long term relationship before me.
And A nod to Sal
Her vag wasnt the best. She was kind of a package. Shit dude I had a lot of girls when we met but I dropped them for her. She was special. Took a while to sleep with her, maybe 4 months. Longest I ever had the patience for. That's why one of the things that shocked me was that it took OM1 a couple of days and OM2 like 1 date. She played me!
Of course I had still been banging girls on the side. We weren't exclusive. She thought we kind of we're.
But WAL is right as usual.
We work hard, provide, we're not perfect. We're just like most couples. Disagreements about little shit. Life is fine. White picket fence. The. We're played and I don't think it's as much about us being stupid as much as us believing they are trustworthy and as honorable. I wasn't a jealous asshole. I thought she would always do the right thing by our family.

Btw if I sound like I'm bragging above sometimes we have to remind ourselves of who we are and where we've been

And I quote five finger death punch:
I'd rather hate you for everything you are
Than ever love you for something you are not
I'd rather you hate me for everything I am
Than have you love me for something that I can't

[This message edited by Betrayed444 at 7:14 PM, June 11th (Tuesday)]


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