Sal, 444: crazy just how much the three of us seem to see eye to eye on alot of things. Maybe because we seem to be around the same point on the timeline, but freaky none the less.
atsenaotie: I like this alot! That's a much more positive way to look at it. Can be hard to stay positive here at the front end of it all.
I think I will look up and see the FWW I helped to heal and the family I helped to hold together and teach valuable lessons about M and fidelity.
Along this line I have a WWS. It's still rattling along the inside of my skull so I haven't quite put it all together yet, and haven't felt ready to extrapolate. Maybe thats the brillance of WAL, he makes you meditate on top of a mountain just to find the full meaning of things. The comment he made to the death bed thing, about not letting your marriage define everything about you. It's brought a great deal of peace to me. Made me realize I can stay in the M, raise my kids, and still find a way to be content with my WS's betrayal. Because her betrayal does not define me as a person. Think thats just the tip of it though.
you know your MC better than me, but if ours ever said anything even close to resembling that, they'd be getting a giant fuck off as I walked out the door. You were in the same marraige with the same intimacy issues, you didn't cheat. I think its irresponsible for a therpist to even hint it has something to do with you. Enabling statements like that have no place when dealing with infidelity, and the therapist should know better.
How much do I want to know? I want to know it all. I want to know exactly what I'm facing. However I'm a very analytical person, sometimes to my own detriment. I have her working on a "confess-all" timeline right now. The unknown is whats killing me. We'll see how thing goes after she finishes. Probably not the right approach for everyone though.
Mister rabbit says, "A moment of realization is worth a thousand prayers."
There's a snooping thread here on SI where you can get help on how to effectively snoop (phones loggers, keystroke recorders, VAR, web activity, number lookups, adult site profile lookup, etc...)
Having said that, IF you're BOTH in R together, then demanding transparency (passwords, access to all accounts and phones, etc...) is the first step to reestablishing trust. I was obsessively checking up on her for about the first year after DDay due to her TT (seriously obsessive; like rifling through her drawers, reading every random note I could find, checking old Hard drives, computer forensics, checking all email accounts ;even old ones, trying to dig information from phones old and new, etc, etc...), I also realised during that process that if she wanted to hide something, she would and all my snooping would be moot.
And that's the million dollar question, do you want to play parent to your WS for the rest of your life? Maybe for the sake of safety if you decide to stay in the M, but at what cost to yourself?
As for the truth, you'll find a lot of opinions on the extent of knowing , you'll find a few useful threads in wayward on "should I tell?", the vets there are pretty unanimous on telling the BS all they want/need to know and not controlling the flow of information (I.e manipulation) to bring both spouses on even keel. The details are where opinions differ. The sage advise seems to be that the WS gives the BS whatever they ask for, but the BS has to consider that there are things you cannot unlearn=mind movies for life. Telling all is also the point where many WSs admit that the fog lifts.
As for finding out the truth, go with your gut, I've seen countless BSs eventually discover their gut to be right about the general stuff ( not specifics obviously).
I remember a great tag somewhere on the forums; you know where the light is by looking at the shadows.
My fWW has not abandoned our kids, so I have that. And something changed dramatically about 2 weeks ago. We had been having a terrible 2 weeks and I was about done. We had a ver bad MC session and our MC admitted that this was what the end looked like. She went in the next day to IC and has been a different woman since. Not sure if it is her trying to save me or the marriage for her own reasons.
Not sure I will ever know her full motivations or intentions. Just working to let that go. I had a great IC session myself last week with a new IC. He has helped me see that there is nothing I can do to stop her from doing it again if she wants. In fact if she wants to the sooner the better right! I am focused on me.
Thanks for all the support.
I had a tough moment this weekend when my youngest ditched an outing with me. Then I put it in perspective -- I have not stuck around all these years to be the kids' best friend, but their father. Kids ditching their parents is natural and a good thing in some ways.
A D is going to be tough b/c I genuinely believe the kids need me on a day to day basis.
I would like to see a "Positive Shit for Men" type thread. Music, movies, exercise, outdoor activities.
From my perspective -
I weigh less now that I have in 20 years. I know I have dropped too much too fast but I still think I have been doing it right. I am eating, just eating clean. Good mix of cardio, weightlifting and martial arts.
As far as a movie, Warior is pretty damn good if you have not seen it yet.
Music -- been going back to some old stuff like Tom Petty, ZZ Top.
Do I want to read them???
There are threads for weight loss and exercise in I Can Relate, and there are usually off topic threads of various types (in Off Topic ), plus there's usually stuff to put a smile on your face down in Fun and Games. Just navigate around a bit, and if you don't see what you are looking for, feel free to start a post of your own.
If you have progressed significantly I think I would advise against it.
I saw my oldest kid's journal and opted not to pry because I knew the chances of getting my feelings hurt were great. People have a tendency to "spew" in journals so their writing is likely an exageration of their feelings.
If she no longer feels the same way and disavows her shit at that time as her being sick, then I struggle with looking at them...
BUT, I do want to. Part of it is to see if she has told me everything; this means to me making sure there are no other As from prior years. Am I looking for the andrenaline of more drama too?
I wonder whether her intentions at the time really matter now, at 15 months from dday...
BUT STILL, this WWs have quite the talent of bottling up and hording their feelings and thoughts so it is hard to know who you are married to behind those walls. Might the journals reveal to me who my WW really is behind all the protection and denial? Or would they mislead? Hmmmmm...
[This message edited by MC_Jack at 7:26 PM, June 3rd (Monday)]
I wonder whether her intentions at the time really matter now, at 15 months from dday...
I personally wonder how much someone really changes at a core level in only 15 months. That's not to say at all that people cannot and do not change -- just that 15 months is an awfully brief window for correcting lifelong patterns.
More like a fad than a change until there's some significant time behind it.
That said, I'd advise you to think about this really hard, especially if you feel like your wife is being remorseful and forthcoming. Once you know what's in there, you will *know* for all time. You can't ever un-know it.
There were things in my wife's journals (that I saw before she burned them) that she doesn't even remember, but are seared into my brain. Not just the events, but her graphic, hedonistic enjoyment of being degraded in particular ways.
Due to her bipolar stuff, she doesn't even remember the events themselves -- and even as recently as a couple of months ago was horrified when I dropped a detail from her journals in a discussion that she did not recall and could never imagine herself actually doing.
And yet, those things still inform my view of her. They're part of the package, because I've read them. They're a part of her lurking in the down deeps of her being.
You can overcome that mental image-building stuff, by all means, but it won't be easy work.
Might the journals reveal to me who my WW really is behind all the protection and denial?
Rough stuff and really the trick to much of this business. Do you have a person that has and is changing? And into what?
Your a ways out. IMO, look at her now objectively not at who she was. In other words, if you look at her and you can say she is remorseful, demonstrates how badly she hosed everything up, then perhaps just calling her a tramp for while during the A is the best remedy. You can't unlearn what you know. If you think she gets it now, why torture yourself with the details of how she was an idiot at this point. It's in the past, you won't know all the details for sure anyway.
I am in no way saying that what she did doesn't matter, it does. My experiences has been that when you can see her current behavior and it is AND it's what you want in an M, the past can turn into just that, the past. Allowing yourself to accept her now goes a long way in healing yourself. Just try and make darn sure she's what you want.
I my own tale I don't know much of the information. She was forth coming and I had access to most things electronic except voice. I still have chosen to have my own description of who she was, what she did. Guess why? It's my fucking story.
My two cent....
"I don't understand the world today I don't understand what she needs I gave her everything she threw it all away" tom petty
You have made it 15 months, yes like all of us still hanging out in the forum you likely still have work to do to heal. But at 15 months I am not sure if going back to relive it from the beginning again unless there is good reason to is a good move. In addition, at some point if you are feeling really good about how things are going, I would advise burning them to get rid of them completely. It might be refreshing to burn away that part of her life. Keeping them will always remain a tempation to go backwards and live it all over again.
Because I talked to people. Asked questions. Read journals. Confirmed with multiple sources. Hacked computers. Read other people's e-mails after hacking their online accounts.
Because she was manic, she doesn't remember. She didn't remember that she had a threesome with the OM's ex-wife and her boyfriend the night before D-day. I knew it from her journals. That was the thing I mentioned off-handedly the other day.
Talk about devastation. Found myself in the weird position of having known and come to terms with something years and years ago that my wife encountered as a "D-Day" of sorts.
(Of course, I mentioned it in the context that it's actually one of the more satisfying parts of her A for me. The last night she spent with the OM, she literally rolled out of his bed feeling unsatisfied and climbed into bed with his ex-wife and her boyfriend -- right across the hall. The next day was D-day and a text message breakup. You can't tell me that his last memory of that relationship being leaving his bed for his ex-wife's threesome isn't an awesomely devastating way to end things. It still gives me a warm, fuzzy feeling. However, the context for sharing that info was deeply insensitive, since it was...er, TT of a sort, as my wife didn't know about it.)
Long story short: I *had* to know. But there were long term consequences to the knowing. You tell me how I can relate a story like the one above and look at my wife the same way again? That's the mother of my children.
That is MY CHILDREN'S MOTHER.
Getting around that shit and coming to terms with it is hard work. If you need to know, you need to know -- but there are consequences.
Do what you need to do, but be smart about it.
Here's what she said once she settled down a little:
"I'm so sorry I took you for granted"
"I'm sorry that I risked all that we built together"
"I'm sorry I put myself before you and the kids"
"I'm sorry that I've caused you so much pain"
"Give me your pain (she wishes she could bear it for me, in other words)"
"I never thought that I was capable of doing something like this"
"Please don't leave me"
"I'll never betray you again"
"I'm your wife (context: I once told her that she was MY wife, not some slimeball's sex toy)"
And a several other things I couldn't make out because she was crying so hard.
She has expressed remorse before, but this was different. She seemed completely broken. This was no acting job - Meryl Streep couldn't have pulled off a performance this convincing.
Just wondering if you vets have experienced something like this before, and if I should look at this as a positive sign of my wife completely getting what she did, and feeling remorse for it.
As bad as I hurt and as angry as I am at times, it actually hurt to see her like this. Somewhat at least. But in a way it felt great. She has done a lot of the right things and said a lot of the right things, but there was a feeling on my part that she was withholding a little something, maybe not totally getting the gravity of the betrayal. Or maybe still in a state of post-discovery shock and damage control. It seems like the remaining walls came down last night. She seems to really get it.
I'd appreciate any takes, positive or negative.
Yep. My W went through several of those evenings. It was really hard to watch, but was most likely the only way I felt any better at first, as messed up as that sounds. No, I did not want her to hurt, but I certainly thought she should be!
Anyway, my take is that is just the first step is all this for her. My W got stuck in the I'm a bad person mode for while - shame or guilt are deadly places to live. They can be great motivators though. Is she in IC? If not, I would recommend finding a good one. It took my W, IC (still in) and AD, to really turn the corner. She went through 3 IC's by the way so if you head that route tread carefully.
It's tough to watch someone you care about implode. I mean yes there was an explosion the hit me (us as the BH's) but the post discovery self realization that truly remorseful WS's go through is pretty harsh. That is where I dug deep and tried to empathize because I saw my W was not just being a piece of crap any more. You can't lift her but you can listen.