If you put the same effort into getting healthy and getting an exit plan instead of sitting in the shit you would be surprised what you can accomplish.
444))) seems awhile back you had closed the deal and come to a conclusion. Is it possible you're bargaining?
That's ok, if that's where you're at.
I DO remember you are suffering a lot of abuse, so I worry about you a bit.
I'm fairly certain the deleted msgs would be stabbing you with more pain.
At some point soon - I hope you arrive at "I know enough".
Your music postings remind me of when I liked to do that. Same flavor. Here's one for you from my time.
Hoobastank: Donít Tell Me
I like the menz thread just the way it is - we get all the viewpoints from guys at every stage and we need to see that, see what the journey is like up ahead, and what R or D holds in store. What to expect & focus on.
I'm sorry anyone felt tromped on *just* for trying to R. We DO vent, though it's not officially allowed, we do a good job of policing ourselves I'd like to think... (& spare the great and powerful mods from having to herd cats all of the time).
Been catching up - so I hope this doesn't break the internet...
numb: on feeling the need to punish
hardlessons said: with true forgiveness the desire to punish goes away.
If numb's not chewing on a bone till his gums bleed (iow - if the desire to punish is not some sick pathological beast within him) - it could also be something in his gut, telling him he's not getting the real deal.
numb, I'm leaning toward she's not getting it yet ( not true remorse) after:
W: I feel so horrible today. I feel so bad for hurting you and betraying your trust. I am so happy to get a chance at a new M with you.
I'm not there, but it *sounds* mutually exclusive, as if she's just reciting some mantra she imagines you want to hear & your gut is feeling that something's missing (hence anger).
I find it ironic I am asking for directions in forum of the same gender that often gets stereotyped as "not willing" to ask for directions when lost.
... a HOT IRONy
Have a great weekend woot!
Hey, OVER HERE!!!!!!
Overall, it was the best night we've had by far since D Day. There seems to be some light at the end of this tunnel. R now seems more like an inevitable outcome than a long shot.
Happy Memorial Day weekend, SI brothers. Wish you all a good one.
Heads high brothers
[This message edited by Stillkicking at 4:22 AM, May 27th (Monday)]
I reserve my right to feel uncomfortable reserve my right to be afraid.
I make mistakes and I am humbled every step of the way.
It wasn't dumb.
I remember that outrage -- that anger over my WW drawing lines in the sand about non-A things like she had a *right* to tell me I could or could not do something.
Every time she sent me the message that "I don't value something that you value", my gut reaction was "If we were a team, your opinion might matter. But you're not on my team. You're on whatever team has a penis you fancy."
My advice to you: decide if owning a gun is a hill you're willing to die on. It's not about the gun. It's about whether or not she's going to support you in your areas of interest and trust you to be responsible with it.
Some hills are worth dying on -- even when they look minor on the outside, because they get at issues of control in the relationship. I can't tell you if this is one of them, though. That's for you to decide.
Just give it a few days to let your head clear from the outrage before you make your decision.
Hey, OVER HERE!!!!!!
Thanks for this, jjct. I hadn't heard this was in the works.
I really dig Rich Mullins -- more the man and his life than his music, oddly. Mullins is the sort of man I aspire to be.
I started reading Dietrich Bonhoeffer's _Cost of Discipleship_ recently. Bonhoeffer had the same spirit as Rich Mullins, I think. It's a higher standard than I've held myself to in the past, and I'm not sure how to go about it.
What does it mean to die to one's self? Where does the courage come from to live a life of faith?
I watched my parents do it through my entire formative years, and it's like I learned nothing. I don't understand it. It's like I have these words, but I don't know what they actually mean.
There *is* something in Bonhoeffer's concept of "costly grace" that resonates with the BH experience, though -- only it puts us on the other side of the equation, as the one needing forgiveness rather than the one giving it. The cost of accepting that grace is giving up your whole life.
And it's one of those places where I'm looking at the ways my wife transformed herself in order to earn forgiveness, and I'm humbled and awed, because she she gets it. She gets this concept on a deeper level than I ever have and comprehends the lifelong cost of flagrant sin.
It's enormously moving, when you can give it enough time and get the perspective to see the strength and courage of a repentant wayward wife, and understand that their commitment to reconciliation is an exercise in living on faith.
Just another phase in this lifelong journey.
"No. You don't get to tell me what to do, ever again." That's how I feel sometimes.
About 3 months after d-day, I had moved out of our rented house and had my own apartment. I agreed to take a new job which involved a lot of travel.
When I told WW about it, she said "....do I have a say in this?...."
"....That's not fair...."
"...do I have a "say" in what you are doing?..."
So I have been wanting to get myself a shotgun for a while now, even had started saving a couple times but other stuff came up and have been telling my wife that I want to get one so I can go out with my father, it is something he used to do every fall with his best friend until his friend past away, anyways so this has been the plan for like a year and half and she has never ever said she was against it, just that I wasn't allowed to skin any animals in the garage, ok fair enough I can live with that.
Then yesterday we are sitting in the back yard with a couple buds and their wives and one buddy shows me some pictures of a couple guns that he had just bought, and I said I couldn't wait till I got mine, and my wife pipes up with " If you get a gun that's a dealbreaker I will take my kids and we will leave" the tone and look on her face was just so out to fucking lunch, so I was a little stunned, but managed to say " well if wanna get a gun then I am gonna get a gun" and I left it at that. Then everybody proceeded to start talking about why they have guns and shit and of course they are all valid reasons. However this is not helping my situation at all. She goes storming inside so I follow her in and ask what up why are you crying? And all I get is that I totally just bailed on her out there that everyone is picking on her and I just say back and watched. Ok fine that's not whats going on at all but if that's how you feel. She then tears a fucking strip up one side and down the other of me. So I said to her if this was such a big deal and you are so opposed to me having a gun then why the fuck would you not say something, I don't know, a year an half ago when I was first planning on buying one, but no you had to wait til there was lots of people around to try an pull this alpha-female grand matriarch bullshit??? Fuck no I wasn't having any of it, an I stood my ground and wasn't a dick or an ass about it. Of course until an hour later and she still hasn't dropped it so this guy got pretty angry, not hulk angry, but good and pissed non the less.
Thank you for your insight wal, I mean no it is not a hill I would die but I mean give me little bit of warning before your gonna try and vice my balls. People have different opinions, and like I said there was never any previous mention of guns being a deal breaker, you know I don't even think the gun was the issue, I think that it was all just a bullshit show for the crowd.
That's probably a pretty safe assumption 444 lol
Thanks fp and tfk
Anyways, back to the fun right?!?!?
Just another day on the roller coaster ride through hell. No one said this shit was easy, right?
Edited to address StillKicking's post: SK, it strikes me that she isn't in a very good position to make demands or discuss "dealbreakers." Good that you stood your ground.
[This message edited by Sal1995 at 9:37 PM, May 27th (Monday)]
I would say months 4-9 would be characterized by some initial healing, me getting a grip on myself (at times) and getting back into a normal work routine. We also were in IC and MC which seemed to center around me deciding if I wanted to stay in the marriage and, if so, needing to stop comparing myself to OM and work on issues in marriage. Ok I get that but not a lot of "shit why the the hell did my WW wind up in the backseat of her car with OM". Just sayin.... I became kind of disillusioned and while WW still sees counselor for IC I rarely go.
I should say that from the get go I guess I have been "lucky" to have a WW that has taken responsibility for the A and for the most part did not try to blame shift. But much of the reasoning behind the affair hinged on the perceived lack of intimacy in the marriage and self worth. Wasn't really buying that bridge either. I would say that I probably got 70% of the A details through intense questioning right after the A, but also had my share of "I don't remembers" including when the initial PA occurred with either of the A or times (estimated between 6-10). She always did have a crappy memory though since being in a major auto accident when she was younger (convenient). During this time not much improvement on my end and experienced everything from emotional bonding to weeks of non stop mind movies to packing my shit to leave to feeling convinced we can R.
It was just in the last two months I found SI and first and foremost want to say a big thanks to all the BM that offer their similar tortures, advice, 2x4s and hopes. More importantly it has become my primary IC and has given me good direction in working on the 180. While I will not say I am at peace, I feel better prepared to try and navigate this mess. I still have no idea if I am wired to R, but am trying. Not only for my kids but evaluating as I go for myself and I would say lastly for my WW. To my WW credit when I told her about SI and this thread she immediately took interest and would daily look through the forums sharing different ideas and things she has learned. It's the first time in a longgggg time I could say I was proud of her. She has come to tears over many of the posts in the BM thread and seems to "sincerely" been affected. She fears she has irreparably damaged our children, admits to herself being broken, reminds me that she will work on herself to keep me and understands that there are issues which are HERS that she has not addressed in IC thus far that need serious work.
I guess I should be happy, I am, but....I am afraid. Should it have taken SI for her to come to these revelatioms? Am I just so jaded at this point I can't take it at face value? Am I just an assshole that should be happy we've made it this far and who cares where and why? I'm hopeful but afraid my next post will be..."spoke to soon". Thanks again all for the best help at the shittiest of times.
OK, so much for the warm and fuzzies that I posted earlier this weekend. Today was a return to a "I-can't-believe-I'm-married-to-a-woman-who-would-fuck-another-man" mindset.
Sal. One of my greatest daily struggles.
I guess I should be happy, I am, but....I am afraid. Should it have taken SI for her to come to these revelatioms? Am I just so jaded at this point I can't take it at face value? Am I just an assshole that should be happy we've made it this far and who cares where and why? I'm hopeful but afraid my next post will be..."spoke to soon".
2fwd, the first roughly 4 months after dday fww and I were separated and I wouldn't let her stay more than 2 nights in a row, just couldn't deal. Looking back I would have done a ton different but here we are.
I would have been happy about what felt like a genuine happy moment, not try to fill it with A shit. I doubt this is humanly possible in the first year...
I would have accepted that for a time I would be jaded.
I would have accepted that I would be an assHOLE, but that didn't absolve me of how I treated her. History is filled with horror stories that all started with Justification. I think I learned my first boundary in life in this regard.
I would have taken the fear you and I have/feel/felt and made an action plan by; getting healthy, a list of requirements for R, getting through my questions quicker than years... Fear really is the mind killer, I let it either freeze me in place or go places I shouldn't.
I am lucky my fww works her ass off and I am happy for that, doesn't mean I am happy with what she did. Just because we have the Burro Grande in front of us doesn't mean we have to eat the whole thing.
There are people who R and are healthy, happy people. Doesn't happen for a majority, but it does happen. Keep doing what your doing and the two of you can make it. Good luck
All we need now is a Marine
A little late but thanks! Semper Fi
IDK. She is doing a whole lot of things and has done what I have asked. (she fails sometimes, but my expectations may have been too high). I don't know if she could have done things for this long without remorse. At some point she would have quit or gone all passive aggressive on me.
DS 1, DD 6
Dday 8/31/11. ONS that occurred 3 years earlier. Lied to for 3 years.
Every truth comes to light in a long enough timeline.
I hear what you are saying.
I guess I should be happy, I am, but....I am afraid.
There have been a lot of good things from my R....but I have the same ambivalence/anxiety or whatever you want to call it that you have. It has to do with the WW 'fixing herself'. Is she doing enough? Is it fast enough? Is she really fixing herself? Am I focused on her issues and her fixing herself to avoid looking at my own problems? Is she fixing herself but I can't see it because I am more comfortable with a narrative that she is the one with all the problems? When will I know that she has finished her work of self-discovery? The uncertainty and anxiety ==> I am afraid. I am also afraid that maybe I will not want her after all in the 'end'.
I am 2/3 of the way through the book "No More Mr. Nice Guy." The author has done a good job gathering a lot of psych advice that exists and putting it into one easy to read book for 'nice guys'. I will report to you guys when I have finished.
I am also afraid that maybe I will not want her after all in the 'end'.
This is exactly what happened to me. At first, I was very "gung ho" to correct all the things she said were wrong, the things she blamed her affair upon.
Later, as I got over the extreme hurt, anger, disappointment, blaming myself, etc.... I recognized what a total and complete lack of love and respect was required on her part for her to do this.
Then, I was no longer interested in the marriage. Fixed, not fixed, healed, not healed, don't give a damn. I just plainly didn't want to be married to someone who could do this, who thought so little of me to:
1) go outside her marriage to satisfy what should have been discussed, worked-on, and negotiated WITHIN the marriage;
2) after my discovery, in full view of the hurt and anguish she caused me, continue the affair;
3) add to my injury by blaming me for what was her choice, and her choice only, having nothing at all to do with me, what I did, what I didn't, what I was, what I wasn't.
Would be cool if I could find deleted messages.
SK: Maybe being around guns my whole life gives me a different perspective. But seems to me an easy compromise would be a combination gun vault. To me that's plenty for her to allow you that time with your father. Again maybe not, but to me that would let me know real quick with the gun is the actual problem or she's just trying to keep you on a leash. Kudos for standing up to her. Never understood what the purpose of the public ultimatum accomplishes. She just painted herself into a corner. Seems like a power grab to me.
I would have accepted that I would be an assHOLE, but that didn't absolve me of how I treated her. History is filled with horror stories that all started with Justification
Mister rabbit says, "A moment of realization is worth a thousand prayers."