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I Can Relate     Print Topic    
User Topic: Betrayed Men - Part 10
64fleet
♂ Member
Member # 18710
Default  Posted: 10:10 AM, May 24th (Friday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Forgiveness just doesn't feel right. It feels forced right now and based on what I have read, it should seem a little easier.

I've been stuck right there over 5 yrs, dunno how to get past it. She's changed, not really enough, but still I keep her at arm's length-the detachment is strong.
Sorry they wouldn't open a thread for you, hardlessons.


time wounds all heels

Posts: 5359 | Registered: Mar 2008 | From: deliverance land
hardlessons
♂ Member
Member # 35025
Default  Posted: 10:27 AM, May 24th (Friday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

No worries 64! I don't know if I would call it stuck. For me I didn't one day say I forgive. Either your W isn't showing you enough to move or you are holding out for more of something and when you realize what it is you can make a move. It was a thing were I was working through some of my pain with this shit and I realized that I had forgiven my wife. Am I ok with what happened? No. Do I still get fuckin pissed or hurt, abso-fuckin-lutley. I just no long hold on to the resentment of what happened. I cease to demand recompense and I am better for it. It is a lot of luggage to carry around and I got my own baggage I need to deal with.

I think you just keep poking and prodding, ask yourself why you feel that way and try to get to the root. Sometimes it is simply a matter of time, osmosis.


Me WH
Wife Tired Girl
3 adult sons
"a wayward...annnnd just a tad betrayed."

Posts: 838 | Registered: Mar 2012 | From: Arizona
Ascendant
♂ Member
Member # 38303
Default  Posted: 10:36 AM, May 24th (Friday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

This is exactly why I made the suggestion to have a BM thread where the whole intent was R. Some guys just don't want to have to yell I am ok and in R over the dine of whore of never forgive etc.

I go back and forth on this one. I feel like there're probably a fair amount of guys who read and lurk, probably without posting, because their situation is somewhere in the middle, you know?

Their wife had an A, and it was found out one way or the other. She seems apologetic and seems to want the marriage, is probably NC, and is perhaps in IC, but hasn't reached the kind of digging and epiphanies that we see/hear about from the more vocal fWWs on SI. While she probably blameshifted and TT'ed to varying degrees (because it seems like all WW do) immediately after the A was uncovered, it's probably lessened now. She didn't verbally castrate you (or your manhood, performance, etc.) on or after DDAY, but you still have plenty of quality reasons to be wary of her. You live your life with your wife and kids day-by-day, trying to balance healing yourself, not letting the A make you bitter every day, and to re-develop some sort of feelings for your wife, because you want to R, you know? You surf SI about every day or so, and while it seems like your WW is not the model R candidate, she doesn't seem like a sociopath either.

I like BM because we do have such varied voices, you know? Those BM firmly in R should feel comfortable asking advice for how to help them move forward if that's what they desire, without being drilled with "Dude, she's a cheating whore, she's probably blowing the post-, milk-, and FedEx- man. Can't trust them wimmenz!!!", but to some degree I think it's important to read those posts, too. I'm sure there are plenty of dudes out there who have posted here who felt like they were moving forward in R, and going to be alright, and then their WW flipped their shit and did it again. I could be wrong, but when I first started posting here Cannon was thisclose to divorced, with a crazy STBXWW and when I went back and read some of his older stuff, it seemed like he thought they were going to be ok for a time there. So for me, reading some of the more angry-type stuff keeps me on my toes, so to speak, as far as what kind of behavior to look out for, and what pitfalls to avoid doing myself....but if I were further along in healing and R, yeah, I could see the negativity as maybe holding me back.

Also, I'd worry that "Betrayed Men-R" would maybe be *too* nice, and the regular "Betrayed Men" would essentially just become a misogynistic den of hurting guys, you know?


“Anyone who has a continuous smile on his face conceals a toughness that is almost frightening.”

Posts: 1604 | Registered: Jan 2013 | From: Illinois
Tred
♂ Member
Member # 34086
Default  Posted: 11:01 AM, May 24th (Friday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I haven't been around as long as most of the BM guys, but I find that if the topic of the day isn't compelling to me, I just wait a couple of pages, and the guys are off on to something new and shiny. I don't come here to listen to an echo chamber that reinforces what I already believe, I come here to get perspectives and try and sift a nugget of gold out of mountain of shit that will help me in my healing. That, and have a chuckle and listen to guys talk about chess, guns, and real cool BM revenge movie plots. One thing I realize is my "narrative" isn't anyone elses, so my frame of reference gives me a different perspective to any particular topic. We have guys that are in R, D, S, limbo, MH, and all the combinations that SI supports - of course we are going to not agree on some aspects. Even if we were one homogeneous group we wouldn't. I read some stories and say "I wouldn't put up with that shit" but the real truth is I might, it just hasn't happened to me so there is no need for me to put on the false bravado. This is all new uncharted territory for me, so I keep my mind open take what works for me, and leave the rest. In a perfect world, I wouldn't have a reason to be here. Hell, I'd settle for a post-apocalyptic world full of zombies, no beer, low def television with black and white re-runs of European golf, and no reason to be on this site.


Married: 16 years (14 @JFO)
D-Day: 11/09/11
"Ohhhhh...shut up Tred!" - NOT the official SI motto (DS)

Posts: 3303 | Registered: Dec 2011
StillGoing
♂ Member
Member # 28571
Default  Posted: 11:13 AM, May 24th (Friday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I don't think a blanket forgiveness was in here anywhere. Maybe as a religious thing, but that's still about the person doing the forgiving and how they want to feel about the world. I'm not gonna judge somebody for trying to be the good guy. I'm not going to take his side in a debate but so long as he has his boundaries laid out, whatever, that's his sack to carry and I don't care much what's in it.

I can forgive my wife because it was a process that took a long time and a lot of work. I won't ever forget, and it will probably hurt forever and I will never be okay with what happened, but that's not about forgiving. Forgiving her as far as I am concerned is about relinquishing the entitlement to punish her or extract some kind of equality or justice. It's kind of in line with, nothing can ever make up for this, and I can punish her forever or let that go and try to live together. The vigilance stays, the mistrust doesn't go away right away, but we start looking forward. Maybe it's because she cleared enough shit out of the path to start us headed that way.

I don't see a need to forgive the OM, or even her parents for some of the shit they did. I've said it before, this forgiveness crap takes a lot of fucking energy. Over the 20 years we've been together my wife and I have generated a lot of memories and experiences, and all the horrible shit aside and everything else being equal I still think she's sexy and fun, smart and interesting and all the stuff we thought about our wives before the alien took over. So her being someone I want to be around (which doesn't negate her being someone I don't want to be around other times), and us having that history, and our kids together, and everything else adds up to the question: is this worth the effort? In my case I decided yes.

That's a lot of shit right there to teeter on the "yes" answer, the rest of those people? They can all stand on each others shoulders, fuck them. Not worth forgiving. I don't sit around plotting their demise or doodling grisly scenarios of them or anything, I just don't think about them much at all unless my attention gets called there by circumstance or conversation. Then it's hell no, I'm not forgiving those fuckers. They can turn into smurfs and get high sucking some scorpion dick for all I care.

eta:

Are we talking L4D2 zombies or foliage-challenged zombies?

[This message edited by StillGoing at 11:15 AM, May 24th (Friday)]


“Fate is a fickle bitch who dotes on irony.”

Posts: 7107 | Registered: May 2010 | From: USA
Sal1995
♂ Member
Member # 39099
Default  Posted: 11:20 AM, May 24th (Friday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

One thing for all of us to keep in mind is that this is a vent thread. Faithful husbands come on here to vent about the most painful thing our wives can do to us short of hiring a hit man to take us out for insurance money - Screw another man. Kiss another man. Date another man behind our back. Tell him that she loves him. Give away for free what we have earned through time, devotion and commitment.

In large part we are guys who are actively pursuing R, who love ours wives deeply, who nevertheless come here to talk a lot of shit. I do it, a lot of us do it. B444 rips his WW, but takes her to the movies last night. Why, because he had nothing better to do last night? My guess is because she is his wife, he still loves her, and he still wants to do things with her. I rip mine on here from time-to-time, but had a great MC session yesterday and made love to her last night.

As for forgiveness, most of us are already deep into that process. It just doesn't feel like it at times. If we haven't forgiven our WWs to a large extent, then why are so many of us still with them? Why haven't we filed for divorce, in some cases years after D Day? Why aren't we out seeing other women and moving on with our lives?

This sucks. Short of losing a loved one in a tragic way, I can't think of anything worse. Expecting rational (or consistent) conversation from people going through this hellish nightmare is expecting way too much IMO.

I say take this thread for what it is, and take most posts with a grain of salt. You can take a lot of my posts on this thread with a grain of salt. When you see me agree with someone who complains about being married to a middle-aged slut, it's just the pain talking. The truth is I wouldn't stay married to a woman who I really thought was a slut. The problem is, I know the woman my wife was from age 23-39, so trying to process the woman she allowed herself to become from age 40-41 is not easy. It's confusing, infuriating, and painful as hell. I see the woman she is trying to be these past 96 days, and it looks a lot more like the woman I used to know. But that doesn't mean I'm not going to vent against the selfish person she allowed herself to become for about a year. Sometimes to her, sometimes just to you guys.

But if still being with her more than three months after finding out the worst isn't in itself a form of forgiveness, I don't know what you would call it.

[This message edited by Sal1995 at 11:36 AM, May 24th (Friday)]


Me-45
WW-42
DDay 2/17/13, 10 month PA/EA
Final NC late Feb. '13
M - 18 years, together 19+
4 children

Reconciled


Posts: 1028 | Registered: Apr 2013 | From: Texas
hardlessons
♂ Member
Member # 35025
Default  Posted: 11:26 AM, May 24th (Friday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Let me back track a bit. I think the topic at hand is what ND and 64fleet mentioned. And I hope they stop back by and talk about it.

My take on the thread is that I don't want to sift through mounds of shit like "I am just using my wife as a cum rag lol" kind of shit. Do I understand? Yes. Is there a place for it? Sure. Do I want to dive into that cesspool to find that gem, nah keep it.

ND & 64 I think that if your honestly looking into what your feeling with some time and effort you will find your answer, there is no magic bullshit here, some take a couple years and some will go to their grave with this shit.

“...and Heaven have mercy on us all - Presbyterians and Pagans alike - for we are all somehow dreadfully cracked about the head, and sadly need mending.” Melville


Me WH
Wife Tired Girl
3 adult sons
"a wayward...annnnd just a tad betrayed."

Posts: 838 | Registered: Mar 2012 | From: Arizona
Sal1995
♂ Member
Member # 39099
Default  Posted: 11:51 AM, May 24th (Friday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I'm newer on this site than most of you guys, so if I'm wrong about BM being a vent thread among other things, let me know. I caught the end of BM 9 and the beginning of this one, and that's the way it looks to me.


Me-45
WW-42
DDay 2/17/13, 10 month PA/EA
Final NC late Feb. '13
M - 18 years, together 19+
4 children

Reconciled


Posts: 1028 | Registered: Apr 2013 | From: Texas
Tred
♂ Member
Member # 34086
Default  Posted: 11:57 AM, May 24th (Friday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Technically, ICR isn't a venting thread, from the forum description:

A forum for people to talk to others who have experienced the same unique situation and share their thoughts with each other. There will be no venting in this forum it is a place strictly for support and encouragement. Please feel free to join in any thread where you have personally experienced the same situation and you feel you can give comfort and hope.

However, it ebbs and flows. I've seen the mods step in and right the ship when the rudder gets turned to far in one direction.


Married: 16 years (14 @JFO)
D-Day: 11/09/11
"Ohhhhh...shut up Tred!" - NOT the official SI motto (DS)

Posts: 3303 | Registered: Dec 2011
hardlessons
♂ Member
Member # 35025
Default  Posted: 12:00 PM, May 24th (Friday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Sal, it can be ventish and there is nothing wrong with that, BM thread can be a lot of things to a lot of people and that's good too. Sometimes it gets sideways debating FPS or RPG's and about everything else in between.. Sorry your here. And welcome to our different take on Band of Brothers where everyday can be St. Crispin's day..


Me WH
Wife Tired Girl
3 adult sons
"a wayward...annnnd just a tad betrayed."

Posts: 838 | Registered: Mar 2012 | From: Arizona
noescape
♂ Member
Member # 34888
Default  Posted: 12:20 PM, May 24th (Friday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Glad to see you Hl, just wanted to add that the 'no forgiveness' statement from razor was qualified by

Those without empathy. Those that see what they did as justified. Those that feel entitled to what they did. Those that have no remorse over what they did.

Also, from my perspective, the BM thread is a great hang out space for many of us who just wouldn't be able to be 'normal' IRL, having to carry and keep the burden of this shit a secret from everyone around us.

And sometimes, the crap talk is cathartic, even if wildly exaggerated . I found myself "pulled" back in when browsing thru and chancing on a few real gems, things that untangled a few webs I'd been struggling with recently.

BM is probably the ONLY place on the Internet that differentiates itself from every other infidelity resource out there; IRL or online: for which I am genuinely grateful. Believe me, I should know, I did over 2 years of studying, reading, trying, engaging, posting elsewhere before I landed here. I don't believe it's pro D or pro R or pro anything other than pro BM.


Posts: 739 | Registered: Feb 2012
64fleet
♂ Member
Member # 18710
Default  Posted: 12:41 PM, May 24th (Friday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I think mine has some remorse, yet still feels she was entitled to whatever she wanted. The remorse is prolly more from losing my love than anything else.
She's prolly in the middle, does just enough to keep me from leaving.


time wounds all heels

Posts: 5359 | Registered: Mar 2008 | From: deliverance land
hardlessons
♂ Member
Member # 35025
Default  Posted: 12:51 PM, May 24th (Friday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

64, that is regret not remorse and if that is where she is at then its time to put pen to paper and write down what your expectations are for her getting her shit together. Also, you need to be ok with where putting your foot down leads you. I see a lot of people on this site do the 180 and when their spouse doesn't respond they fall apart and accept more of the same bullshit they were doing the 180 for.. The old don't write checks you can't cash. Be ok with D if she isn't going to do what you need.

Have you done that? Set up requirements for R?

[This message edited by hardlessons at 12:52 PM, May 24th (Friday)]


Me WH
Wife Tired Girl
3 adult sons
"a wayward...annnnd just a tad betrayed."

Posts: 838 | Registered: Mar 2012 | From: Arizona
allatsea
♂ Member
Member # 38923
Default  Posted: 1:18 PM, May 24th (Friday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Sal,

Your last but one post on this thread; Fucking brilliant.
Lump-in-my-throat brilliant


I just wish mine would come back to me

[This message edited by allatsea at 1:28 PM, May 24th (Friday)]


Me 40
WW 38
Together 19 years
Married for 9
DS(1) 9
DS(2) 7
Dday 10th Feb 2013
She moved in with POS and took kids 23rd Mar 2013. WW now pregnant
Divorced April 2014

Posts: 520 | Registered: Apr 2013 | From: UK
64fleet
♂ Member
Member # 18710
Default  Posted: 1:21 PM, May 24th (Friday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

D not happening til the kids are grown, CS would have me in a camper in a buddy's yard. I'm poor, + I was stupid enough to be a stay at home dad while the kids were little-it was career suicide. I went back to work after dday, put the youngest in daycare. Pretty much worked to pay daycare for a while there. Now both are in school, no daycare now. 12 yrs til the youngest turns 18.
My fWW was molested by an uncle as a young child, of course I had no idea until after dday.


time wounds all heels

Posts: 5359 | Registered: Mar 2008 | From: deliverance land
hardlessons
♂ Member
Member # 35025
Default  Posted: 1:32 PM, May 24th (Friday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

64, 12 years is a long time to sit in shit. There are a lot of situations like yours out there, but bottom line you can make a choice. Should make a choice if that is where you are at. Doesn't mean you D tomorrow, it means that you put an exit plan together and work towards that.

Staying for the kids? You are not doing anything by keeping them in a loveless home where mom and dad are a couple of fucked up birds who can't fly true north. Work on getting you healthy, work on your exit plan and make it happen. Whats the alternative? Another 12 years of stuck? Fuck that


Me WH
Wife Tired Girl
3 adult sons
"a wayward...annnnd just a tad betrayed."

Posts: 838 | Registered: Mar 2012 | From: Arizona
64fleet
♂ Member
Member # 18710
Default  Posted: 2:34 PM, May 24th (Friday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

No way am I leaving the kids-it is selfish on my part, I like to see them daily-I raised them this far and will see it thru. We don't fight(nothing to fight over) or anything, we just aren't close-my folks weren't either.
She's immature emotionally due to sexual abuse at a young age, not my fault but my cross to bear.


time wounds all heels

Posts: 5359 | Registered: Mar 2008 | From: deliverance land
DefiledRage
♂ Member
Member # 39292
Default  Posted: 3:10 PM, May 24th (Friday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Face punched explained my situation to a t in the italics.
The BM forum has been the perfect combination and exactly what I was looking for. I'm fully dedicated to working on R, but at 3 months out I also need a place to put out a little rage. It allows me to say something that I'm not willing to say directly to my WW, because if I did, in her fragile state she'd probably go running to the hills and that's not what I want. I think that makes it the perfect forum to vent some and at the same time read some of the more positive stuff. It helps to realize that I can be incredibly angry and that's normal, even if I'm still want the M to work. I can still love her and not let her walk all over me.
Before I even posted I took a look at the timeline of the guys posting here and noticed that most haven't been here for a really long time. I'm sure that its normal for guys to show up when the initial sting is strong, then gradually fade away as they move to a better place. And I thought to myself that it must be difficult sometimes for those that stick around for awhile to have these new guys show up just to start venting as only angry men can vent. And that's something that us new guys to this betrayal stuff need, the venting I mean. I'm sure at first you were all the same way. But also we need those guys that have dealt with it for awhile to keep us centered too! For that reason it makes pay even more attention to those posts because that is where I hope to be someday. For me, right now, its providing the balance I need.

[This message edited by DefiledRage at 3:11 PM, May 24th (Friday)]


Me:35 WW:34 M:13yrs
3 young children
Dday 1 EA 7/8/2010
Dday 2 PA 3/1/2013 same OMM for 4yrs

Mister rabbit says, "A moment of realization is worth a thousand prayers."


Posts: 426 | Registered: May 2013 | From: Two blocks from south shit and west hell
Razor
♂ Member
Member # 16345
Default  Posted: 3:12 PM, May 24th (Friday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

except for the sex abuse issue. me and 64 are in pretty much the same bucket.

I stayed for the kids at first. I could not handle OM having a hand in raising them.

me and WW are not close. We enjoy the same things and have a similar world view. But there really is not any love. At best she is a friend with benefits.

This is not what I signed up for on the day we were married. But it is what it is. Sometimes life hands you a shit sandwich and you just have to eat it and move on. Sometimes you have to make do with what you have. Make the best of a bad situation. Thats what I have done.


Forgive and forget = Relive and regret.


Posts: 3084 | Registered: Sep 2007
numb&dumb
♂ Member
Member # 28542
Default  Posted: 3:24 PM, May 24th (Friday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Guys

It is cool, I like the different perspectives. I was reading stuff on here and it got me thinking. I just wanted a little different take on than what I would normally get on another forum.
Sometimes when I post in R I get too many responses that are of a certain type. I wasn't looking for hugs, I'm sorrys or unicorn/rainbow related wisdom. I wanted a straight answer like I would from my guy friends, which I can't really confide in about this stuff because none of them have had to live it. You guys have.

While I can get just as vicious when talking about my W as anyone else, sometimes it doesn't feel right. I feel guilty about it. Now granted my W has been very remorseful lately and been willing to do whatever I ask. The odd part is she hasn't really changed anything. I just refused to see it. The fact that it took me so long to actually see through my own stuff to recognize it tells me part of this is me. Maybe if someone else has a relevant experience to share it may help me.

Forgiving this isn't something I can do today, but it doesn't mean that can't change. Who knows.

I do know that, at times, the way I react to my Ws remorse is not really healthy. If I am honest, I have to admit that, yes, it is punishing her. I don't want her to forget that the growth comes with a lot of pain. I don't believe (in) her. I guess if it makes me sound mushy, it does, but to quote the famous x-files poster, "I want to believe."

Just not sure what direction that is.

FWIW- I find it ironic I am asking for directions in forum of the same gender that often gets stereotyped as "not willing" to ask for directions when lost.


Me-35 her-35

DS 1, DD 6
Dday 8/31/11. ONS that occurred 3 years earlier. Lied to for 3 years.

Every truth comes to light in a long enough timeline.


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