Forgiveness just doesn't feel right. It feels forced right now and based on what I have read, it should seem a little easier.
I've been stuck right there over 5 yrs, dunno how to get past it. She's changed, not really enough, but still I keep her at arm's length-the detachment is strong.
Sorry they wouldn't open a thread for you, hardlessons.
I think you just keep poking and prodding, ask yourself why you feel that way and try to get to the root. Sometimes it is simply a matter of time, osmosis.
This is exactly why I made the suggestion to have a BM thread where the whole intent was R. Some guys just don't want to have to yell I am ok and in R over the dine of whore of never forgive etc.
I go back and forth on this one. I feel like there're probably a fair amount of guys who read and lurk, probably without posting, because their situation is somewhere in the middle, you know?
Their wife had an A, and it was found out one way or the other. She seems apologetic and seems to want the marriage, is probably NC, and is perhaps in IC, but hasn't reached the kind of digging and epiphanies that we see/hear about from the more vocal fWWs on SI. While she probably blameshifted and TT'ed to varying degrees (because it seems like all WW do) immediately after the A was uncovered, it's probably lessened now. She didn't verbally castrate you (or your manhood, performance, etc.) on or after DDAY, but you still have plenty of quality reasons to be wary of her. You live your life with your wife and kids day-by-day, trying to balance healing yourself, not letting the A make you bitter every day, and to re-develop some sort of feelings for your wife, because you want to R, you know? You surf SI about every day or so, and while it seems like your WW is not the model R candidate, she doesn't seem like a sociopath either.
I like BM because we do have such varied voices, you know? Those BM firmly in R should feel comfortable asking advice for how to help them move forward if that's what they desire, without being drilled with "Dude, she's a cheating whore, she's probably blowing the post-, milk-, and FedEx- man. Can't trust them wimmenz!!!", but to some degree I think it's important to read those posts, too. I'm sure there are plenty of dudes out there who have posted here who felt like they were moving forward in R, and going to be alright, and then their WW flipped their shit and did it again. I could be wrong, but when I first started posting here Cannon was thisclose to divorced, with a crazy STBXWW and when I went back and read some of his older stuff, it seemed like he thought they were going to be ok for a time there. So for me, reading some of the more angry-type stuff keeps me on my toes, so to speak, as far as what kind of behavior to look out for, and what pitfalls to avoid doing myself....but if I were further along in healing and R, yeah, I could see the negativity as maybe holding me back.
Also, I'd worry that "Betrayed Men-R" would maybe be *too* nice, and the regular "Betrayed Men" would essentially just become a misogynistic den of hurting guys, you know?
I can forgive my wife because it was a process that took a long time and a lot of work. I won't ever forget, and it will probably hurt forever and I will never be okay with what happened, but that's not about forgiving. Forgiving her as far as I am concerned is about relinquishing the entitlement to punish her or extract some kind of equality or justice. It's kind of in line with, nothing can ever make up for this, and I can punish her forever or let that go and try to live together. The vigilance stays, the mistrust doesn't go away right away, but we start looking forward. Maybe it's because she cleared enough shit out of the path to start us headed that way.
I don't see a need to forgive the OM, or even her parents for some of the shit they did. I've said it before, this forgiveness crap takes a lot of fucking energy. Over the 20 years we've been together my wife and I have generated a lot of memories and experiences, and all the horrible shit aside and everything else being equal I still think she's sexy and fun, smart and interesting and all the stuff we thought about our wives before the alien took over. So her being someone I want to be around (which doesn't negate her being someone I don't want to be around other times), and us having that history, and our kids together, and everything else adds up to the question: is this worth the effort? In my case I decided yes.
That's a lot of shit right there to teeter on the "yes" answer, the rest of those people? They can all stand on each others shoulders, fuck them. Not worth forgiving. I don't sit around plotting their demise or doodling grisly scenarios of them or anything, I just don't think about them much at all unless my attention gets called there by circumstance or conversation. Then it's hell no, I'm not forgiving those fuckers. They can turn into smurfs and get high sucking some scorpion dick for all I care.
Are we talking L4D2 zombies or foliage-challenged zombies?
[This message edited by StillGoing at 11:15 AM, May 24th (Friday)]
In large part we are guys who are actively pursuing R, who love ours wives deeply, who nevertheless come here to talk a lot of shit. I do it, a lot of us do it. B444 rips his WW, but takes her to the movies last night. Why, because he had nothing better to do last night? My guess is because she is his wife, he still loves her, and he still wants to do things with her. I rip mine on here from time-to-time, but had a great MC session yesterday and made love to her last night.
As for forgiveness, most of us are already deep into that process. It just doesn't feel like it at times. If we haven't forgiven our WWs to a large extent, then why are so many of us still with them? Why haven't we filed for divorce, in some cases years after D Day? Why aren't we out seeing other women and moving on with our lives?
This sucks. Short of losing a loved one in a tragic way, I can't think of anything worse. Expecting rational (or consistent) conversation from people going through this hellish nightmare is expecting way too much IMO.
I say take this thread for what it is, and take most posts with a grain of salt. You can take a lot of my posts on this thread with a grain of salt. When you see me agree with someone who complains about being married to a middle-aged slut, it's just the pain talking. The truth is I wouldn't stay married to a woman who I really thought was a slut. The problem is, I know the woman my wife was from age 23-39, so trying to process the woman she allowed herself to become from age 40-41 is not easy. It's confusing, infuriating, and painful as hell. I see the woman she is trying to be these past 96 days, and it looks a lot more like the woman I used to know. But that doesn't mean I'm not going to vent against the selfish person she allowed herself to become for about a year. Sometimes to her, sometimes just to you guys.
But if still being with her more than three months after finding out the worst isn't in itself a form of forgiveness, I don't know what you would call it.
[This message edited by Sal1995 at 11:36 AM, May 24th (Friday)]
My take on the thread is that I don't want to sift through mounds of shit like "I am just using my wife as a cum rag lol" kind of shit. Do I understand? Yes. Is there a place for it? Sure. Do I want to dive into that cesspool to find that gem, nah keep it.
ND & 64 I think that if your honestly looking into what your feeling with some time and effort you will find your answer, there is no magic bullshit here, some take a couple years and some will go to their grave with this shit.
“...and Heaven have mercy on us all - Presbyterians and Pagans alike - for we are all somehow dreadfully cracked about the head, and sadly need mending.” Melville
A forum for people to talk to others who have experienced the same unique situation and share their thoughts with each other. There will be no venting in this forum it is a place strictly for support and encouragement. Please feel free to join in any thread where you have personally experienced the same situation and you feel you can give comfort and hope.
However, it ebbs and flows. I've seen the mods step in and right the ship when the rudder gets turned to far in one direction.
Those without empathy. Those that see what they did as justified. Those that feel entitled to what they did. Those that have no remorse over what they did.
Also, from my perspective, the BM thread is a great hang out space for many of us who just wouldn't be able to be 'normal' IRL, having to carry and keep the burden of this shit a secret from everyone around us.
And sometimes, the crap talk is cathartic, even if wildly exaggerated . I found myself "pulled" back in when browsing thru and chancing on a few real gems, things that untangled a few webs I'd been struggling with recently.
BM is probably the ONLY place on the Internet that differentiates itself from every other infidelity resource out there; IRL or online: for which I am genuinely grateful. Believe me, I should know, I did over 2 years of studying, reading, trying, engaging, posting elsewhere before I landed here. I don't believe it's pro D or pro R or pro anything other than pro BM.
Have you done that? Set up requirements for R?
[This message edited by hardlessons at 12:52 PM, May 24th (Friday)]
Your last but one post on this thread; Fucking brilliant.
I just wish mine would come back to me
[This message edited by allatsea at 1:28 PM, May 24th (Friday)]
Staying for the kids? You are not doing anything by keeping them in a loveless home where mom and dad are a couple of fucked up birds who can't fly true north. Work on getting you healthy, work on your exit plan and make it happen. Whats the alternative? Another 12 years of stuck? Fuck that
[This message edited by DefiledRage at 3:11 PM, May 24th (Friday)]
Mister rabbit says, "A moment of realization is worth a thousand prayers."
I stayed for the kids at first. I could not handle OM having a hand in raising them.
me and WW are not close. We enjoy the same things and have a similar world view. But there really is not any love. At best she is a friend with benefits.
This is not what I signed up for on the day we were married. But it is what it is. Sometimes life hands you a shit sandwich and you just have to eat it and move on. Sometimes you have to make do with what you have. Make the best of a bad situation. Thats what I have done.
It is cool, I like the different perspectives. I was reading stuff on here and it got me thinking. I just wanted a little different take on than what I would normally get on another forum.
Sometimes when I post in R I get too many responses that are of a certain type. I wasn't looking for hugs, I'm sorrys or unicorn/rainbow related wisdom. I wanted a straight answer like I would from my guy friends, which I can't really confide in about this stuff because none of them have had to live it. You guys have.
While I can get just as vicious when talking about my W as anyone else, sometimes it doesn't feel right. I feel guilty about it. Now granted my W has been very remorseful lately and been willing to do whatever I ask. The odd part is she hasn't really changed anything. I just refused to see it. The fact that it took me so long to actually see through my own stuff to recognize it tells me part of this is me. Maybe if someone else has a relevant experience to share it may help me.
Forgiving this isn't something I can do today, but it doesn't mean that can't change. Who knows.
I do know that, at times, the way I react to my Ws remorse is not really healthy. If I am honest, I have to admit that, yes, it is punishing her. I don't want her to forget that the growth comes with a lot of pain. I don't believe (in) her. I guess if it makes me sound mushy, it does, but to quote the famous x-files poster, "I want to believe."
Just not sure what direction that is.
FWIW- I find it ironic I am asking for directions in forum of the same gender that often gets stereotyped as "not willing" to ask for directions when lost.
DS 1, DD 6
Dday 8/31/11. ONS that occurred 3 years earlier. Lied to for 3 years.