If he were head over heals for this woman, he would have wanted to spend all his time with her. He wouldn't have been satisfied with just a hour or so here or there.
MY WH had a LTA with MOW at work as well. I caught him quite by accident or I am sure it would still be going on. That being said, WH said that after it had been going on so long, it became more normal & he thought he was getting away with it.
When the excitement of not getting caught was gone, it was an easy way to blow off steam. She was married, he was married. No worries about her ratting him out because then she would be caught. He could use her when he wanted to & that was that.
It doesn't paint a pretty picture of my WH at all, but I believe that. He said she would want to talk to him and he would blow her off because she was "annoying" and "crazy" but it was easy to get her to send him crazy pictures & tell him things that he had only read before in the Penthouse Forum. That is what he wanted...unfortunately to him, it didn't matter how or who it came from.
Once I knew, it seemed too easy that he didn't want any contact with her...she tried to contact him several times, but he really didn't seem to have a hard time with it at all.
What helped me a bit when it didn't piss me off was a chapter in Not Just Friends that talks about the AP. It actually concentrates on a single female AP, but I think the thought process is still similar...you might check it out.
So, in short, I think LTA are mostly NOT emotional connections between the APs. I think the emotion that comes into play is the feeling the wayward gets from the AP...ego stroking, feeling important, manly, the high, exciting sex, etc more than how they feel about the AP.
It is a bit hard to get our heads around as women because we don't think that way! If I am going to put my life as I know it at risk for someone, it will be someone I have deep feelings for. Women are more emotional beings & it is hard to overcome the thought our WH don't think the same way.
He agreed to MC and we will have more discussions this evening as I told him I can no longer ignore the elephant in the room and neither could he.
That is nice and all, but MC work on M problems with couples to fix M problems.
His having an A, hiding contact from you after proclaiming NC, and the things he did that he now “hates” himself for were not M problems, they are his problems. Addressing these things really requires IC, and then when the WS is well on the way to healthier the couple can work together on the M.
OK, so you did not ask about this, but I am going to butt in anyways.
Last night he said he was getting spells of dizziness. I took his BP … I took it this morning and it was normal… I told him that he was taking to much …To not take it this morning…I will check it again when he gets home and adjust his meds ... I called to remind him …
Step back from the enabling. He is a Big Boy and need to learn to be responsible and take care of himself.
I am going to worry about your health first and then I will deal with mine.
Yea, yea, such the martyr now. He does not need to take care you, you are doing that just fine. He needs to stop injuring you and take care of him; he has issues (see above). You have a pretty long post dday history with this guy. Look for sustained actions, and remember that words mean nothing.
LTA vs Emotional Attachment
I responded to FB’s original post. In a nutshell, My FWW was able to maintain her LTA precisely because there was not emotion as we would think of it being intimacy, closeness, love. There was a sense of power, an external meeting of a need for affirmation, sexual satisfaction, but no real love or desire. I think that when there is emotion, the A cannot sustain hidden. When there is emotion and "True Lurve" present the APs take steps to be together, to actually leave the BS. I think that an A with lurve and emotion either results in leaving the BS or burns itself out. I cannot see it lasting for years at just a simmer.
I think the LTA indicates a defect in the APs. The LTA meets all of the spouse needs of the WS without the deep emotional entanglements. FWW could ignore OM if she was angry at him and then call a couple weeks later offering a blowjob and he was happy to hear from her.
[This message edited by atsenaotie at 12:07 PM, April 29th (Monday)]
Had a busy weekend, havn't caught up yet.
But I just wanted to add to ATS' comment with agreement and the following observation:
I think the emotion that comes into play is the feeling the wayward gets from the AP...ego stroking, feeling important, manly, the high, exciting sex, etc more than how they feel about the AP.
The problem for many WSs that bring on the parasite known as an LTA, is that the WS confuses the above. The WS loves the positive mirroring, but often thinks it has something special to do with the AP.
They were, as was just stated, two damaged people trying to fill a dark place inside. It took on a sick, compulsive life of its own but was staggering at the end. My H was thrilled when I found out and he was able to end it.
Frankly it doesn't sound at all appealing and part of the reason I believe that my H is sincere about not straying again is how unpleasant his LTA was. He has nothing but disgust for himself and her and no positive memories at all.
My FWH in my opinion and with hindsight, was spending more and more time with the F***pig(his terminology for her, not mine), at her insistence apparently, becoming increasingly demanding, but here's the thing: he tells me that he was not in love with her, and that she was continuously threatening to blow the whistle (of course, he was so weak, and apparently terrified of losing ME that she knew he would tow the line, obviously becoming more and more confident that he would 'do as he was told' so that she didn't have that, "if I tell it will end" going on). That being so, how come he did this? (which was near the Dday I hasten to add)::: Sent her flowers for her birthday in November when he was away at sea working, returned and went to hers as he would do before coming home in the January, and stayed there for two weeks before he 'said' he was coming home. The longest time he says he ever spent there. However, when he tried to book his train ticket to come home from her house two days before my birthday, she wouldn't let him come home, saying that she would tell before he reached home, ruining my birthday, so that for the first time ever in our life together, I didn't even get so much as a phone call, birthday card (NEVER happened before , and I remember being puzzled by it then, but of course, he was still at work as far as I knew), etc.. How on earth could he stay!!! It beggars belief, and I simply cannot reconcile it no matter what he says (which is that he was terrified and she followed him everywhere on my birthday, not letting him out of her sight and jumping all over him with glee of course. He came home two days later.
I would be grateful for any insights. When I ask H, he tells me that he was never allowed to go anywhere without her. Not even to the shop for a newspaper. Paranoid or what?
This sounds a bit hard to believe to me. Anythings possible I suppose, but I would have a hard time swallowing it, it seems WSs will say anything.
Is this a deal breaker to you? If not, why go through the trauma of this? Will you ever know for sure? Is your WH doing all the right things?
I know sometimes I have to let some things go and other times I can't.
This sounds a bit hard to believe to me. Anythings possible I suppose, but I would have a hard time swallowing it, it seems WSs will say anything.
Diva, I was thinking the same thing. Many WS will rewrite their marriage history to justify their A's. Is your WH rewriting his affair history now to justify his R? For some the truth can be difficult but as catlover states anything is possible i guess.
So this weekend I talked with my WW regarding her late night volleyball games. It went good, she actually indicated she would stop playing if thats what I needed. I don't really want that cause I know how much she enjoys playing. Now she has a time when she has to come home so I think I will be able to handle that better - this stuff just sucks though. I never had to think like this before - I miss complete trust.
I suspect that my fWH rewrites his A history. He's unwilling to admit to anything positive-- the sex was mediocre and only that good was because it was new, never any passion, they mostly talked about work, never emotions, she became shrill, demanding and annoying ( this I believe; I've met her!). He has nothing but shame and disgust, no positive memories. It was always bad and wrong, but the first year was less bad and it got worse from there.
And you know what, I'm pretty okay with that! I believe that he was not in love; he was too bottled up to fully love me, let alone two women! And I believe that the toxic way the A played out and the devastation it has caused me have erased anything positive he may have felt. So his rewrite seems to be his current truth and sits better with me.
I still need him to do the work further as to how he allowed himself to go there (to t/j myself-- is it better if your WS agonized over their decision and decided to do it anyway, or basically just let it happen without thinking or considering the consequences? Mine just let it happen, put it in the box labeled "work" that he admitted was his top priority, but no longer, and had his dirty little secret that to my eyes had no effect on his home life--scary, huh?) but am okay with this type of history revision.
IMHO it is possible for a WS to have an epiphany when faced with losing everything.
That's what happened to my FWH.
But, in my case he woke up immediately after d-day.
In your case you had a number of d-days.
Did that mean that the LTA continued after d-day?
It's hard to say how you should proceed...whether you should go ahead and start divorce proceedings or hold off for awhile.
If you are considering giving him another chance then this would be the time for you give him a list of your demands.
In my case my FWH took it upon himself to get sober and go to AA as well as go to IC.
IMHO those should be your demands - he needs to go to IC and AA.
You might want to go to MC just to have a third party present when you lay out your demands.
But, I agree with Ats that it's too early for MC.
He needs to work on himself first and try to figure out how he gave himself permission to betray you like this?and why?
as well as try to get to the bottom of his alcohol issues.
After he demonstrates to you through his actions that he has changed and has a good understanding of what led to his LTA as well as his drinking and then maybe you can begin MC.
Yes it is possible for there to be no love involved in a LTA.
This was a biggie for me after d-day I kept questioning my FWH about this and he kept insisting that he NEVER loved the OW and that he only loved me.
I was confused.
How could this be?
I had always assumed that if someone had a LTA that it must have been 'love'.
It took a lot more questions, discussions in MC, discussions with my IC, reading books on infidelity, reading tons of posts on SI to lead me to the conclusion that the fact that these APs continue in secret LTAs means that there is no real love involved.
If you love someone you do not treat them this way.
You want to be with them on a full time basis.
You want them to be part of your life-all of your life-not one teeny little compartment.
A LTA is a sign of disrespect.
A mutual 'using' of each other.
In my FWH's case he had a 5 yr LTA with the MOW.
After d-day I kicked my FWH out of the house and began working toward filing for divorce.
The MOW's husband had moved out 3 months previous to d-day ( he already knew about the LTA but had not told anyone he knew....I contacted him after my d-day).
So..after d-day... my FWH and the OW were free to be together.
They could have lived together, or at the least spent time together, they could have emailed or called each other on the phone as much as they wanted to.
The OW knew that I kicked him out because I called her on the phone and told her that she could have him.
After a 5 yr LTA...neither one of them contacted the other...not once.
The fun was over.
The attraction that the affair held for them was this little bubble of decadence, degrading sex, and drinking and when reality came into the picture it was impossible to recapture that sick fantasy again.
Neither of them cared for the other enough to even check in.
When I spoke to the OW I told her that my FWH was extremely depressed and that his IC thought he was suicidal.
I told her to call him because none of his friends or family were contacting him.
She still never called him.
Has he been honest about other details ?
Is he in IC? because IMHO that is key to R.
Ending the LTA is not enough.
There really has to be a lot of internal work done.
The WS needs to make changes in himself/herself for the reconciliation to be lasting.
Without that work it's like an alcoholic that only stops drinking without doing any internal work. That's called a dry drunk.
lay down all, and i mean all of your requirements, including IC for him...must be mandatory..he has to fix what is broken within himself...
and you may want to step back and let him step up, basically letting prove himself...
ok can't remember who posted what question so i will address questions instead of people because i have no memory...lol
emotional or physical and can they really love the op...kind of the same question...
and yes to both....it really is an individual thing on this one...my wh had 2 simultaneous ltas.....one lasting 12 years the other 30....the one that lasted 30 was def love.....and they both claimed the other "did it" for them...he now claims it wasn't love...but that doesn't matter to me..because at the time and that was a long time he believed he did...
anyways...the second one, the one for 12 years...he was not in love with this one...he loved her in the way you love a friend, but it was purely physical...and not because she was great in bed either...she stroked his ego big time...she was a judge (status) and she adored him....what a combination...
i believe lta's can last so long for several reasons...love, emotional connection, fear, habit...take your pick, any or all.....
emotional connection can also mean several different scenarios..like being "in love", or just plain "love", or that biggie of the ego boost
habit...sometimes you get so used to doing something, you just don't know how NOT to do it...
fear:...being found out and the fear of losing your spouse and or family....
i think there was one more question, but i can't remember it, so i will go back and reread and if nec will post again....
Now I am here to vent. Just a simple vent not unlike the other 100 times a day that the anger pressure builds up for a snarky comment.
SO....and its lame......
oprah had a quote:
forgiveness, there is a Quote by Oprah - "Forgiveness is giving up the hope that the past could have been any different."
basically, letting the past remain in the past, acknowledging it because you cannot change it, and finally letting it go, release yourself from the pain of it, stop allowing it to define you.....
thats why forgiveness is about you and not about him...
i hope to be able to forgive pfm eventually...still living with him especially while he still does stupid so well is close to impossible...but i feel it will come...when all the ugly is done....
i am already taking some steps towards this process...
last week, before he made demands upon me to start payin some of the bills....i actually no longer wished him dead all the time.. ....not even most of the time.. ....
of course i took a few steps back when he did make those demands, and went right back to wishin him dead... ..but i have hope...
yesterday we were married 24 years and i think he is finally accepting that we are over....we went out to dinner, us AND the kids....and that was it...no card, no gift, no flowers, no anything...just dinner out....
so much for him saying he will never give up... ......he actually gave up faster on the marriage, we r 4 years past d-day, then he did on ow#1......he waited and waited and tried and tried to keep connecting....granted she never told him to go fuck himself, and she never told him she wished him dead .....
mc: you could do better then "aaarrrrggghhhhh"..i know you can....
but understand if you can't...
catlover, H is doing all the right things now, and has worked 200% toward a healthier marriage, but as you say, anything is possible, and this is just the fishbone in my throat that I can't budge. Him staying on my birthday because he was too afraid of her to do other is just a demonstration of how cruel BOTH can be isn't it? She knew it was my birthday, which is why she made the threats, determined to have 'one up' on me. I was her competition, the obstacle to overcome. I don't actually believe she loved my H at all, but saw him as a financial viability and a secure bet (she was single and had no children. Her husband had divorced her many years prior), AND she evidently wanted to 'win her battle' with me. Frequently she would ask him to leave me, to which he always maintained he would never do that, and she did apparently one day say, "You'll change your mind one day". Unfortunately for her, he didn't change it in her favour!
Perhaps you're right though, I might need to just let it go because I will probably never be able to understand it. Now he feels terrible that he allowed her to blackmail him to such a degree, to which I usually point out that it was his weakness and not her vile threats that make me wish the incident was something I had never known about. Thankyou C.
Reunite, I don't think its actually rewriting to suit R truthfully, I think it's more the difficulty that I cannot fathom the meaning behind such behaviour, and as much as H tries to find a suitable explanation, the only one he can reiterate is that he was terrified she would call me on my birthday, blow the whole thing up and he would be left there to suffer the consequences. He always says that if she HAD blown the whistle, he would have immediately thrown her to the wolves knowing that he could never be with someone who could be so manipulative and nasty. Ironic isn't it? I'm glad you have at least found some comfort in your agreement with your WW regarding the volleyball. It is so awful to have lost that level of trust in them, I agree. Thankyou for your insight.
nj, you have touched on very valid points. She was indeed a bunny boiler, and he knew it, but apparently felt powerless to do anything but wait until she got bored with him/or he returned to work and went NC (he was always pathetically non confrontational) hoping that she would leave him alone (so he tells me, but how much truth is there REALLY in such a statement? Would that have happened had I not discovered his dirty little secret? I have no idea). He most emphatically knew by dday that she was seriously deluded and mendacious though. It frightened the shit out of him when he actually discovered what a vile creature she really was. And of course, you are right, some of it lies firmly at his feet for allowing such things to occur while in the fog of the A. He is indeed in therapy at this time (after a recent dday regarding his internet shenanigans he is receiving hypnotherapy treatment through a colleague of mine), and after the very real threat of losing everything (I had organised everything to leave. Found a house 200 miles away, organised my practice, found out how to continue my studies etc.., oh yes, I was definately out of the whole sorry mess. He knew it too. He was home the same night in a terrible state!!) he is working hard on himself and our marriage. Time will tell I suppose. It is simply this bone of contention that stubbornly refuses to go away for me, that because of what she was and what she dictated, my importance was actually negated on that day through his 'inaction' rather than his reaction. Perhaps as has been said I might never get a real explanation of it,nor any understanding, so should let it go.
Edited for typing errors:
[This message edited by Diva0702 at 3:01 AM, April 30th (Tuesday)]
WW has said the A made her feel good, it was fun, it was exciting! The chase - trying to arrange schedules to meet (anticipation) was exciting. WW just wanted to be with AP (of course when they got together it was for sex). 15-20 texts most days. Post DDay, WW dorve out to watch AP from afar for her goodbye. WW made one abbreviated phone call and AP wanted to know if her BH was vindictive.
And WW has told me that it is feelings and desire that matter. And a minor comment that AP was manipulative with frequent references that AP could not be trusted. WW told AP that H and her did not "connect" as her reason for the A. WW and AP had no plans to run off togeether only that they would always be friends.
"Loves" the bad boy?
Last night W and I were working on the D settlement, finances, and input to the financial planner. W will have a tough time financially and it made me sad. At the end of the conversation, W says that she does not understand why I will not pay spousal maintenance because every divorced woman she knows has received spousal maintenance.
The emotional pull on me is tough.
because every divorced woman she knows has received spousal maintenance
because those divorced women were probably left/abandoned by a cheating husband or could not reconcile. That is not your WW's case as you want the marriage and she is the cheater and the one throwing the M away.
I agree with MCJack.
Your wife initiated the divorce!
She had the affair.
She's the one that does not want to work on the marriage.
She is a healthy, able bodied, young woman with teenage children.
Many women with teenage children work full time.
I have worked full time since my children were very young.
Why would she need to be supported by you?
or anyone for that matter?
again...my advice for you would be to get the advice of an attorney.
He/she could advise you as to how you should proceed.
Remember Love Must Be Tough.
after the divorce is final and you have some time to reflect and depending on your children's situation or your wife's situation you can always decide to help out if need be.
But, for now- do not agree to anything that is not fair and equitable.
It's time to look out for H&C because I know that you will always put your children's needs first- that's the kind of guy you are.
From what you tell us about your WW-as I said before-she has not been making the best choices.
And now she's shocked that there may actually be consequences for her actions.