It must be said that he has consistently told me that every time she asked him to leave me, he always said that he would not do that.
Diva I think that is sometimes common the case in some of these LTA's. In my own WWs case, she had 12 years to leave me for her OM1, plenty of opportunities if she really wanted to. OM1 was single for a long portion of the time. Later he was engaged and then even married himself but that didn't seam to stop it. The powers these AP have in the LTA's are strong but in many cases they are not strong enough to get them off of the fence to be with only the AP.
As for the short periods of time living with the AP. I am sure my WW spent a few nights there whenever I was away on business but it couldn't have been that often. She very much lead a double life though, she was already with the OM1 when we first started dating but never told me about him. I think living the double life was part of the attraction for her. It gave her a sense of power I think.
Has anybody had these feelings of the 'other life' where their H/W has spent short periods living with the AP?
Not the same as yours, but FWW had a 5 year plan to leave me for one of her OM. One OM was single and did ask her to move in with him and pushed for more of her time. She introduced her DD to him.
Another OM was her boss and they would stay together on travel. More so than the lies and the sex, the image of her curled up next to OM going to sleep in his arms durign one of these overnights was the one that probably hurt the most. She fantasized what it would be like to be M to this OM. The wedding, the house they would live in. She became friends with his DD so that she would like FWW better than the OMBS when OM and FWW were together.
As RP said, I think it is all a part of the fantasy, the game. The only part of FWW's 5-year plan she put into place over about 5 years was: Step #1 Date OM.
hope: i do not know all of your story...so forgive me if i am totally off base here...but and its a biggie....if she was a full time mom, and a hands on mom, then i want you to think about your kids....dads are great and necessary, but moms are moms......and yes she fucked up royally, literally, but did she fuck up with your kids, was she always there for them, did she do the mom thing....if the answer is yes then i am asking as a mom for you to just take a moment and think what would be in the best interest of the kids...if she is a shitty mom then go for it all the way....like i said i do not kno your whole sich....i am sorry if i am wrong, it wouldn't be the first time and it surely won't be the last...!!!..and yes it all sucks
gotta: i am so happy that you had fun on your trip and i am so so sorry about your dad, and i am so proud of you for taking a step back and letting this time be about your dad and only your dad....
hi ats and thanks....
if she was a full time mom, and a hands on mom, then i want you to think about your kids....dads are great and necessary, but moms are moms......and yes she fucked up royally, literally, but did she fuck up with your kids, was she always there for them, did she do the mom thing....if the answer is yes then i am asking as a mom for you to just take a moment and think what would be in the best interest of the kids
I'm sorry but I have to strongly disagree with this type of thinking. Yes a D where both parents are generally good involved parents is a very difficult situation. But if both are good parents I strongly disagree with kids going to the mom just because she is mom. There are 2 parents and they both are equally important. It is a crappy situation either way. Yes in many courts dads get the shaft but that doesn't make it fair. Using generalizations where moms are better parents than dads is dangerous thinking.
The issue in many divorces is spousal support and fairness. Most states are no fault and stipulate equal division of assets, and I do think that is most of the time fair in any case when both parents contribute, either working or taking care of the home.
But in H&C's case, I interpret the situation as his wife wanting him to maintain her lifestyle when she cheated AND does not want to fix the marriage. Meaning she wants more than just equal division of the assets. She is fully able to work full time. The kids are no longer little.
If she were remorseful, like RSEB, and wanted the M, but H&C didn't want her, then I could see something in the way of support.
But she is a cake-eater. There is more than one kind of cake.
I can understand the nervous perspective of many women here about D and monetary support. I think most judges look at fairness issues, who cheated, who tried to save the M, etc. Maybe I'm wrong.
[This message edited by MC_Jack at 8:38 PM, April 25th (Thursday)]
She may or may not wake up and get her act together.
But, just in case she is still operating in some kind of delusional fog then you need to make sure that you have an equal financial footing for your children.
Whose to say what would happen if you were extremely generous and gave your WW the lion's share of the finances, house, etc. in the hopes that you were enhancing your children's lives?
You could find out that she has frittered the money away on gambling, or partying, or some out of work OM that sees her as a meal ticket.
Trust me-it happens all the time.
If you work out an equitable divorce settlement at least you will have the ability to step in help your children with expenses etc. in the future in case your WW does not plan accordingly.
My FWH had a 5 yr LTA and did spend overnights with her in hotels etc. because they were co-workers and would travel to conferences, meetings etc. a few times per year.
But, it was far from a make believe marriage situation.
In my FWH's case he and the MOW were f-buddies.
It was an arrangement type affair.
She laid out the parameters early on when she approached him with the invitation for kinky sex (she would fulfill any sex fantasy that he ever had according to her) and they could stay married and no one would ever find out.
They would just have this 'fun' on the side.
I think that is why LTAs can last so long. Both APs agree to the arrangement. They like it being a part time thing.
When there is this big romantic fantasy affair then usually at least one of the APs begins to press for more of a commitment.
Neither my FWH or the MOW were very invested in each other.
Oh...they liked the fun and games of the illicit affair but they did not mourn over each other at all when the LTA ended abruptly when I found out.
It took me a long time to wrap my head around what he said to me after d-day. I imagined that an affair meant love and certainly a LTA meant it even more than a short term affair!
I also assumed that anyone having an affair wanted to end their marriage.
I was surprised when my FWH begged for me to take him back and forgive him.
The MOW never contacted him either (and both were separated from their spouses after d-day so they had the opportunity).
And months after d-day when the MOW discussed the LTA with other co-workers she was very blase about the whole thing-not remorseful at all but not acting like this was a big love affair either.
She referred to it as 'just having fun'.
In this MOW's case I think that she enjoyed the 'game' and the fantasy of the affair.
She had this whole imaginary persona worked out (she had other affairs before this one so she introduced my FWH to many of the games).
She referred to him and to her with all kinds of nicknames-never using their real names.
She made sure that they never discussed their families or home life.She was big on sending tons of very explicit, graphic emails in anticipation of the rendezvous (often for months in advance).
I think the build up and games were what they got off on.
And ironically both felt like they were very powerful(she was this big seductress that got married men to cheat on their wives, he was this sex god that had this woman panting for more in her emails to him) when in reality both of them were using each other and lying to each other all the time.
A very sick, toxic dynamic going on.
i believe i did say i did not know all of hopes sich......and i asked what kind of mom she was, i never assume that just because someone gives birth means she is a good mom, not by any stretch of the imagination....
i do not know how old the kids are...from the kids perspective:
their parents are getting divorced, they will be concerned about how this will affect their life, and rightfully so.....and it doesnt matter what the age of the kids are, they are primarily concerned with themselves....
as to whether or not they should be told, why....that would depend on their age....if they ask then they need to be told the truth without details, they don't need details and its none of their business, that would be between the divorcing parents....yes if they are old enough, they do need to know why!!
but even if they know mom cheated or they don't know, their world is what needs to be looked at:....who was the one who did most of the parenting basics, doctors appts, school meetings, staying up with sick kids....
if dad did it all then he should continue to do it all, but most of the time its mom, she does it all, even if she works, most things fall upon her shoulders to take care of
as the financial end of it goes, dad can pay directly to those things that concern the kids, like softball leagues or Girl Scouts, or doctor bills, tuition....so if his wife is not to be trusted then arrangements can be made so the kids can still have as much of their world intact as possible...
does it suck...yes, but the kids need not have the raw end of the deal too!!! or rather, they will already be losing an important day to day interaction with their other parent, they need not have all aspects of their lives turned inside out because of this.....
that is my thought process on this as a mom and as a child of divorce, had my dad taken me i would have hated him for it!!!
and again i do not know all of hopes sich, so i apologize if none of this is the case in his sich!!
Listen, different states have different rules when it comes to divorce. Here, child support is a non-negotiable item and is based on the difference between the two parents' incomes and the custody. My XWH wanted 50-50 custody but made a lot more money than I did (do). I saw a lawyer several times to get the lay of the land, so to speak, before we went to mediation without lawyers. I spent quite a bit of money to make sure that I didn't get screwed. It was all very important and I walked away in a very good way. So. My advice: Talk to a lawyer, figure out your rights and probabilities for support, and make sure you have great representation. You are no longer part of a personal relationship with the person to whom you proposed marriage; you're in a business relationship for yourself and your children. She'll take care of herself -- she always has! -- your responsibility is to you and your children.
[This message edited by ImNellNow at 6:33 AM, April 26th (Friday)]
I skimmed quickly, but saw something I think MCJack posted in response to Hope - but trying to get the kids out the door, so I may have gotten it wrong, but before I forgot, I wanted to chime in:
Divorce laws vary by state. Here in NY, fault does not have any impact on division of assets, nor child support, maintenance/alimony or custody. And as unfair as that can be in situations where the custodial parent has been the non-monied or less monied spouse in the relationship & the spouse "at fault" winds up getting the kids, living in the house & a big fat check, while the innocent spouse gets out & pays, the reasons for it are sound: the courts are primarily concerned about the children - that they have stability - to that end - whomever was the primary caretaker willstay that & will be supported, for a time at least, in a manner necessary to keep the kids standard of living intact.
It would also be an administrative nightmare to have fault impact these things - so much time & money would be spent on fault, private investigators would be running rampant, the courts would be more overwhelmed than they currently are.
Someone else had mentioned what to tell the kids - nearly 2 years ago we told our kids (who had no idea there was a problem) that we weren't getting along and that we were going to take the next month to keep trying to work on the M, but that it was very possible Dad would be moving out in a month. While we signed an agreement & knew R was over in February of that year, we delayed the conversation with the kids (and separating) until the kids finished the school year - I have 4 kids - one in HS, one in MS, one in grammar school & one that is now 4.
He then moved out a month later.
I think the kids took it as well as could be expected.
I read a lot of books in advance so I could feel as comfortable & prepared on the subject as possible.
The month before he moved out, when they knew it was a possibility, was the worst of it. Once we actually separated, and they saw that their lives were relatively unchanged, they seem ok with it.
My X & I have a very different situation in that he never brought OW near the kids, and while he continued to see her after we separated, he still never brought her or anyone else near the kids. Neither did I.
We constantly reassured them that we would try to minimize any impact upon their daily routine - which is what has happened. Due to our work schedules, we have a sort of tag team style parenting - always have - and this has continued following our separat.ion, with the X coming here to see the kids til I come home from work - sometimes we even eat together & then he leaves for work (he works nights).
We attend all the kids activities together, sit together, etc.
I am very happy with the way things have turned out, but I realize that it is a ticking time bomb - my X wants to get back together & so he sees this liberal relationship as a sign that it might happen - and so he has not really moved on & neither have I in that respect.
But for now, it works & I cling to that for my kids.
My kids have no idea why we separated & very few people know the truth.
All I got for now.
Peace to all. Keep the faith.
[This message edited by Allgoodnamesgone at 7:00 AM, April 26th (Friday)]
Gotta - glad you had a good time! You seem on the fence now, though, where you weren't before. Is this a good thing or a bad thing?
MC - definitely Gerard Butler, and your daughter is gorgeous. Your favorite movie list got me thinking -- I've had to redo mine. An Affair to Remember and Philadelphia Story had to come off. For Love of the Game too, since it is on OP's fav movies on FB (So was Anna Karenina ). Pretty Woman is gone too, since that was one of first dates with WH... So I am gonna go with Nightmare Before Christmas, Iron Man, Galaxy Quest, Star Trek, Sleepy Hollow and The Princess Bride.
My week has been horrific. First, I got some potentially very scary health news on multiple fronts, and was waiting for a week for results. Still have to go for more tests. Meanwhile, I found out WH saw OP again last week, using the same, tired "I thought we were over" excuse and was quick to point out he didn't sleep with her. I got in car, prepared to confront her and tell her husband. WH followed me in car, said if I confronted her or told her H that he would cut me off his health insurance, he didn't care what was wrong with me, file bankruptcy, and do everything in his power to make my life a living hell (it's not already?!) and not give me a dime. Told me she makes him happy, he doesn't love me, and she will make him a better dad, and that their master plan for the future is none of my business. Blamed A on me for taking DD to sister's two years ago for a week after big fight. That he wanted to try, but my demands for NC letter and passwords drove him away. I am not proud of myself -- I begged and cried and bargained, tried to remind him that I love him, that I have my whole life, that he always said we were soulmates... And he didn't care. I caved and finally opened that bottle of Xanax doctor gave me I didn't want to take.
Next morning, I started looking at houses and he won't go look, says he didn't mean anything he said night before, that he wants to just 'push the pause button' until we find out what is going on with my health, and that even if we split up, we could still live together. I said that he'd taken my love, my future, my everything, and now he expected to take my self-respect and dignity too by asking me to live with him while he is seeing her?! He said he hadn't thought of it like that. F'n cake eater.
DD asks if she can tell my nephew, who is her age and they are very close. Nephew idolizes WH, though, and WH says no, because if we stay together, he'd rather he didn't know. Past four days he has been alternately pleasant and moody. Now, even the pleasant days make me feel awful because he told me during that fight that the days he is happy it is because he talked to her. And yet, he is still bringing me coffee in bed, kissing my forehead, worrying about my health...
I am so exhausted. And scared... About my health, my future... Everything.
[This message edited by DecimatedHeart at 8:43 AM, April 26th (Friday)]
All my posts are edited - I hate typos. :)
Parenting. As everone notes- it depends on the situation and how to least impact the kids who are primarily focused on themselves. That's it, that's all there is.
My two kids still at home are in high school and very well adjusted - no issues. W has been the one that sees them out the door on their way to school (bye bye) and that is a joy not a parenting need. W has been the one to take care of their activity schedules and can continue to do so whether or not the kids are in her presences (which they usually are not). W takes them to doctors appointments (and again she can continue to do so). And W is usually home when kids get home (they grab a sanck and go to their room or just hang out. They take care of their business, no porodding needed on homework).
IMO, kids need both a female and male influence and the issue is how best to give that perspective.
MC_Jack.. finances. What we have, I am willing to split 50/50. No issue. If W does not manage her half, then she will suffer. I can take care of the kids day to day as I do now and have made it clear that we will set aside (not divide) the amount we have saved that will pay for their college.
Have a great Weekend!
Most people don't commit murder because they know it's wrong but they also KNOW they WILL go to jail and possibly be put to death if they do commit murder so laws do act as a deterent. There are always the statistical outliers like serial killers or psychos so you would still have those if there were laws against adultery and some people are just not very nice to begin with. That is all just my opinion of course on this great Friday morning.
At the end of the day life is not fair and yes the BS whether the husband or wife often gets screwed in some way shape or form after the fact. The BS ends up suffering some form of consequence for the WS's stupidity. Whenever my WW starts to complain about something I remind her that it was her choices that got her to this spot not mine.
My WW is a great Mother, however I am a great Father. So in the child rearing department it's a wash. We agreed on 50/50 custody up front. I was going to provide for my kids no matter what happened. My state has a formula that calculates CS and since I make 3 times more than my wife (she makes a decent salary herself) then I end up paying her. I am okay with that. My kids will likely directly or indirectly receive more than the allotted amount anyway since they will live with me 50% of the time and I do plan on making sure they have things they need and probably most of their wants.
Now spousal support is a different story. IMO my WW deserves ZERO financial support from me in any shape or form. Yes that is the emotional response so I let the Lawyer guide me as if it was a business deal.
At the end of the day I agree with Nell:
My advice: Talk to a lawyer, figure out your rights and probabilities for support, and make sure you have great representation. You are no longer part of a personal relationship with the person to whom you proposed marriage; you're in a business relationship for yourself and your children. She'll take care of herself -- she always has! -- your responsibility is to you and your children.
Divorce is a business deal and you don't let emotions get in the way of a business deal. I walked into the lawyers office and said I want to make sure my children are taken care of but other than that my WW is on her own. Now I want you (the lawyer) to tell me how that happens. I had salary info and all financial info for my WW and I and she ran it down for me. I told her everything my WW and I had discussed and also told her that my WW had essentially asked for nothing from me other than child support. Lawyer looked at the figures said my WW made enough to be okay and told me what I was looking at for CS, so she drafted the agreement and my WW got NOTHING from me. The CS I will be paying is for my Children. If the lawyer had said based on the numbers she believed that if I didn't pay spousal support it could be detrimental to my childrens standard of living then I would have paid it but it was based on a business decision mentality and not an emotional one. I guess I got lucky in that while my WW was not remorseful she did feel guilt and I have zero obligation after the A to tell her to watch out for her own interests. I was and am looking out for my children's best interest. So the terms of our D were fair as far as I was concerned, we both keep our debt, we keep our own assets, I keep the house since it was mine before we married, 50/50 custody with kids, and CS which in my state is based on a formula. Anything beyond that is on her.
Every situation is unique but tell the lawyers what you want and then let them do their jobs.
DD asks if she can tell my nephew, who is her age and they are very close. Nephew idolizes WH, though, and WH says no, because if we stay together, he'd rather he didn't know.
Keep focusing on you and your DD. I hope your health issues work themselves out quickly and in a positive direction. It's tough but it gets better. Good for your for looking at houses. Keep taking steps forward at the pace you can take and make sure you are taking care of yourself.
He was right in you don't need to worry about HIS master plan for the future because you should focus on YOUR master plan for YOUR future with you and your DD. He is still seeing OW and will continue to try to manipulate you and make you feel bad with this back and forth stuff to keep you off center. 180 and detach as best you can. Figure out what you want, make your own plan, and put it in action.
It's very hard to reconcile all the new info with what you believed was your history, your "truth". It takes time.
Ats: Thank you. I need the reality check. I'm the one that has been in the fog. You are absolutely right, no one is ever completely ready. I don't think I'll ever be completely emotionally ready, but in reality with finances, I'm starting to set things up and I do need more time.
H&C: Have you decided what you would do with the marital home after the kids are older? Are you going to sell and split the proceeds when the kids get to a certain age? This can have a bearing on who stays and who goes. Also, you may want to ask the kids what they would prefer. It's a difficult thing, but they are in HS and may want to have a say in what is going on. For the kids, it's best that there will be the least disruption to their everyday lives. It's terrible that the WS can do what they did and then seem like they get "rewarded" for their deeds.
Decimated Heart: Are we married to the same man? There is a book called "The Script" by Eliazabeth Landers and Vicky Mainzer that is seems all WH's follow, especially cake eaters.
Another book I highly recommend is "Codependent No More". You cannot control him but only yourself.
My heart goes out to you. You are saying things that I have said and am still saying. You are still fresh and the wounds hurt terribly. I know you want to do anything and everything to save the M and to somehow, someway make all of this go away and have back the H you thought you had.
That is the hardest thing to accept.
Everything HAS changed.
The old marriage is DEAD.
That is hard. And yes, you can mourn it and should mourn it.
One of the hardest things, too is that in the past if we were that hurt, we were able to turn to our spouse and get support, love and validation. But now, it's our spouse that is causing all this pain, and we don't know what to do or where to turn.
You need to go to an IC for help with this. Vent here as often as you want. Journal. Journal journal.
See a lawyer ASAP and find out what your options are. If your WH has a family plan on his health insurance, get a separation agreement where you will remain on it.
Don't beg him for anything. Detach emotionally as much as you can. Come here for support.
I've been where you are for far too long at the sake of my sanity, heart, soul and mind.
A BS cannot reconcile alone.
It sounds as if you know what you need to do.
Do you have support IRL?
Your WH is an abusive bully!
He is trying to have his cake and trying to control everyone around him.
He needs to understand that there are consequences for his behavior.
The OW's husband will eventually find out.
It would be better if he found sooner rather than later because exposing the affair will most likely end it.
But, the truth will come out.
Your DD has a right to talk to anyone she wants.
How dare he try to control her as well?
You have a right to talk to anyone that you want.
He is controlling you with fear.
And much of what he says is not true.
Like cutting off the health insurance.
Is this insurance through work?
If it is -an employee cannot make any changes in the health insurance without a written OK from their spouse!
If he pays for his own health insurance there may be laws about this as well.
You are his wife so everything that you own is 50/50.
You need to speak to someone about your rights.
You may not feel ready to speak to a lawyer but you should find out about the health insurance etc. ASAP.
Is there a Women's Resource Center in your area? or a Women's shelter?
They may be able to get you the name of an attorney that can give you free or low cost advice.
And you mentioned looking for a house...are you looking for yourself? Is this in preparation to separate?
If so...why would you ask him to go with you?
Many BS are in shock after d-day and go through a bargaining stage.
Hoping that somehow if they placate the WS then they will not leave or they will choose the BS over the OW or the OM.
Unfortunately, you cannot 'nice' a WS to stop cheating, you cannot 'love' them back into the marriage.
The most effective approach is usually the opposite- a tough love approach.
A book that describes this: Love Must Be Tough by James Dobson.
right now you are between a rock and a hard place....you have 2 priorities right now, your health being at the top of the list and your dd next
as for your dd telling your nephew, i could care less what your ws thinks on this, i would though care about what the nephews mom and dad might say, is he old enough to handle it, it actually might be better if he hears about it from his parents and then can talk to your dd about it.....and if his parents are ok with it let her know the plan, it will help her to know that she will at least be able to confide in him, and if possible get her a counseler to help her deal....and kids are kids, she may opt to tell him anyways if she hasn't already....
when my dd learned about her dad, she and i talked about who she can talk to and who i preferred she didnt...i never forbade her fromtelling anyone, but i did ask her.....and when she finally said she wanted to tell her best friend, i called her mom and gave her a heads up, which went well because then the mom was able to tell her dd from a grown up's perspective and when my dd did finally confide in her, it didn't catch her off guard and she had some ready answers to console my dd....and it was addressed calmly and rationally which is what my dd needed from her friend...
put your ws away in your mind as much as humanly possible, stop torturing yourself and don't look for anymore evidence, you have enough of what you need, and yes i know its soo much easier said then done....but your health is at risk here.....you have to, your dd needs you healthy so that you can be there for her...
180 his ass for your own sanity, your health and somewhat peace of mind...
(((trust))) you sound strong.....
hope: i agree 100% that kids need both parents as role models....they learn by watching more then being told....they will watch you and they will watch her...
a couple of weeks ago i wrote about these friends of ours, whose dd got hit by a car..these friends are divorced.....he left her for another woman, she put aside her hurt and pain and did what she had to do to co-parent with this man...the woman he left her for lasted only a couple of months...the parenting still continues...they BOTH work at it, she more then he, but he has stepped up EVERY time....he put his kids first and i think he is a wonderful dad...he drove to boston in record time and never left his dd's side, he slept in a chair next to her until her mom was able to get there days later...(mom was stuck in mexico, couldnt get a flite)...and then mom slept in the chair and dad finally left and went to a hotel that mom's fiance arranged with dads wife and took a shower and slept laying down....the mom's fiance picked up the dad's wife here in Long Island and drove to boston to pick up mom at the airport and then went straight to the hospital...the dd is 21 years old, the hospital had told the dad he could leave, he refused and they didn't fight him....
the dad left the mom when the youngest kid was 3 months old, and the mom knew he was goin while she was pregnant....and she knew why!!...that was 17 years ago...and they are the best parents i know married or as in this case otherwise!!!
your kids will watch you, they will learn more by what you do more then what you say ...they see much more then they hear