Do you know anything about Karpman's drama triangle? It was an eye-opener for me to realize that my drama king had stuck me in the role of the perpetrator, while he and the COW traded victim and KISA roles back and forth. Truly twisted stuff.
Really, stop engaging him. He is NOT going to tell you the truth. He is NOT going to man up and take responsibility. He is NOT even going to be able to identify reality any time soon. You really really really need to 180 for your own sanity. You've given him all the tools he needs to get his head back in the game. Now you sit back and watch. Give yourself a time limit... my MC suggested 3 months... where you just hand over the reins and let WH drive the M. Work on yourself during this time. Then in 3 months, evaluate.
That's my advice, anyway.
As for the idea of the no OM clause, my lawyer advised me that it would be all but impossible to enforce, so I didn't bother putting it in. But XWH is notorious for only following rules and laws when it suits him, so I knew seeing it in a legal document would just get his "rebel without a clue" working. Instead, I used his need to be A Nice Guy. I made sure he knew that if he brought the COW anywhere near our boyos, they would know he was Mean because he cheated on their mommy (her kid would tell), and once I didn't have the boyos to protect, I would tell everyone what and who he did and then everyone would think he is Mean. That pretty much killed his delusions of having a pretty little IRL relationship with the COW. I don't think they lasted more than a couple of months once I removed myself from his home and he wasn't sneaking around getting stuff stroked any more.
You are taking what is rightfully yours as a spouse. "Using" him for medical insurance or not. Don't feel guilty about this. You didn't destroy your M. He is doing that with help from his cheater partner.
You are doing a wonderful job and your kids are blessed to have you as thier mother!! God bless you.
I wonder what it's like for him. I feel like it must be a big ego booster to have 2 women after you. While my self esteem has suffered immensely, I bet his is huge. Pisses me off!
I really don't want to divorce so I am worried about standing my ground when I hand him the papers. I KNOW I have to follow thru or continue living this hell and I'm not doing that anymore. I think you guys are right though, I will feel better just getting it over with. The step is hard but will be worth it.
I like your ideas about the trip! Damn right I have earned it! I have put up with his lying, cheating ass while he earned it so its mine! Im going to enjoy it to the hilt. I also like the idea of doing something totally on my own. I need that too. I am considering a spa time! I am going to show his co-workers what a sweetheart I am! I suspect his co-workers know about his ho-worker or at least suspect.
Part of me wishes I would have thrown the divorce at him sooner so that if reconciliation is possible this trip would have been a help. At the same time, this trip also seals the deal. He has told me this is our "honeymoon" and a refreshing of our marriage. Yeah right, we will see about that one.
Part of me wants to make sure i divorce him while my dad is struggling with brain cancer. I feel bad for saying it at all. I want my husband to look like the ass he has been to me. Our friends, families and co-workers, everyone, knows my dad is going they this so I want them all to know what an ass my husband is for doing this to me now. Is that wrong of me? I don't want him looking like a hero for helping me thru my dads health and after he passes away, leave. I want the world to see him for what he is!
I wish so much to understand this stuff but I never will. I could never do what he has done to me to anyone! And then to do it over and over! Watch someone fall to pieces, lose their enjoyment in life, watch them in pain, how do they do it? I will never get it!
Thanks for letting me vent. Kind of anxious about it all today.
I have been wondering, what did your STBXW say when you initiated D? what was her response when you told her why you did?
It was a non-event the evening I told her, a mini performance the next day, and back to business as usual after that.
The day I told her she was kind of noncahalant about it and we talked about what the lawyer told me but everything we had verbally agreed to in prior conversations went into the agreement. I had told her before that it wasn't the A that did me in it was her lack of doing what I needed that made me ultimately pull the trigger. She squeaked out a few tears and let me vent but the next day I got the other side of it.
The next day after work she told me that I was cold and didn't understand her. She admitted that she felt like she had to put up this front while at home as this strong person and that she routinely been breaking down at work. She is always giving to other people and when she needs me I just sat back and said nothing. She had been stressed out, depressed, and just wanted someone to be there for her for a change. Soudns familiar right...yep it was my fault. I just listened and just stared at her. That pissed her off even more. I assume she was expecting me to come to the rescue again but that man had left the building. Was that cold, yeah, but I was done by then.
We had a weird week or so after that but she eventually went back to her normal self, focusing on her new house and acting like things were just great. So basically she blamed me for the D and her problems then went back into her fantasy world that I have been removed from permanently.
In her mind, once she moves out things will get better because all of this negativity and bad stuff will be behind her and she can start over. And I am not guessing, she actually told me this.
Me filing had little to do with my feelings for her at the time. My WW would never have pulled the trigger on D and I likely would have sat in limbo a few more months. But when she walked in the door with a piece of paper that would "technically" have made me 50% liable for a brand new $150k house on top of our current bills I turned into a Vulcan and EVERYTHING became logical real quick. I couldn't get the paperwork done fast enough. Everything got signed before her closing date.
Her buying the house was the ultimate sign of unremorsefulness and rugsweeping to me. It wasn't I am moving out to get an apartment. It was her saying I will complete the ultimate "do over" and life will be grand again. It screamed I am starting over without you and my life will be great no matter what ANYONE around me says and yes everyone around her told her it was a bad idea and even if you move you are just moving your "baggage" to a new location. But hey, she's an adult and it's her life.
I go back and forth on wanting the karma bus to hit her but I try my best to stay positive as much as possible these days until July when I get ALL of my life back. It will be much easier when she isn't in the house.
Sorry went on for a bit not sure if I answered your question or not.
BS:45 WH:47 needhelp123
8yr EA&PA w/MCOW emp/frmr emp
19y M * 25y T, 2 teens
DDay 12/31/12*5w TT
Sick tired sad
I am very glad that you posted. I have wondered from time to time what happened to you.
You don't have to post helpful stuff- just look at me! There are so many caring people here.
I am stuck too - but in a different way. At home all is fine, with the family, wife, whatever. It is at work where i am in a black hole. I have zero interest in my job. Less than zero actually. I built a small company and the investors will be ushering me out at some point. The blow of infidelity has taken away any wind i had for the sails of this career. What's next for me?
I would really appreciate any getting unstuck advice.
I will try to give you my perspective on getting unstuck. Everyone's situation is different but this is what I did to find myself again and be able to move forward. There were 4 things that were big for me. At the time I didn't even realize I was getting unstuck.
1) I was so tired and drained with this entire shitstorm that had become my life that I literally sat down one day and said "F it, I give up. I am tired of working to save this marriage and nothing I am doing is working." I literally gave up trying to fix the M. It was slowly killing me so I had to stop. I can't change what my WW did but I can control my actions going forward.
2)Everyone always says focus on you. I didn't know what that meant until I got to point 1 above. I was tired of trying to win my WW back and getting the proverbial slap in the face or seeing the same patterns repeat over and over again with me being the one coming out hurt. Nothing i had tried woudl "fix" the situation. Initially the only thing I knew to focus on was my health so I threw myself into working out even more. That tranlsates into I found something that I didn't mind doing, I didn't actually like it yet, and threw myself into doing it even more. So by default I was spending more time by myself away from my WW to the tune of about 1.5 to 2 hours 6 days a week.
3) At some point the running/working out wasn't working anymore. It was like the high I got from working out wore off faster adn faster. I found myself walking into the house after working out and getting depressed again after a few hours. But instead of jumping down that hole again I decided to find something else that would make me feel good about myself again that I wanted to do. That's when I started making my list of things I wanted to do. The more I did things on the list the more activities I had to occupy my time. Yes they were initially just to kill time, I enjoyed some of them, and the kids enjoyed most of them but eventually I woke up one day and realized that I was actually enjoying life again. For me it took about 3 months but I didn't notice the time that had passed because I was too busy trying to plan my next excursion or activity for me or for me and the kids.
4) Everything I did above I did without my WW. It was done because I wanted to change ME and my situation not my WW and our M. I was tired of being miserable and actively chose to do something about it.
Positive change doesn't come without pain but if you can get through the initial pain you can enjoy the rewards of all the hard work you put in. Do I still feel awkward at times hanging out with my brother or friends, sure, but not as much as I did initially and I do have actual fun these days. Yep some days i get sad but I jump back on the horse again.
For me, hiring a trainer was the jumpstart I needed. I was already working out but the fact that I was paying someone to train me meant a tightwad like me was NEVER going to miss any of the sessions. So I was forced to get out of the house 2 to 3 times a week even if I didn't want too. initially i was running to burn off stress and anger but after a while i realized I was actually running soem pretty good distances and it became a game to me. so I set goals and would try to meet them on a daily and weekly basis. I would fail sometimes and hit plateaus but just like life I had to deal with it. I had something to focus on that ws purely for me and the effort I put into it came directly back to me in the form of tangible gains in weight loss, increase in didstances, increase in speed etc. For the first time in a long time somethgin I did for myself had payoffs that I could see and I was hooked.
Excercise was my thing but my advice would be to find something you are passionate about that you can establish some goals while doing. It could be anything. The small successes can give you a push to go further and when you do have a setback and overcome it it gives you even more confidence.
It's all about being selfish with your life again. Sit back and say you know what I have been in this shitty situation for however long and now it's time for me. This isn't being selfish in a bad way it's you taking some time to create some new memories for yourself and push yourself while doing something new. Yes you will have setbacks but you just pick yourself up and keep going. For me I found that expending the energy I spent trying to fix my W and M was much beter spent on myself. So I spent just as much if not more time digging into new hobbies and things I wanted to do. I mean think about it. Those of us that are fixers spend an insane amount of time researching and trying to find ways to fix our spouse or marriage. You just have to find something you can be just as passionate about for yourself and turn that energy into yourself. If your spouse is truly remorseful you just tell them you need some time for yourself and they will understand. If they aren't truly remorseful then you were better off spending the time on yourself anyway.
Man I sound like a motivational speaker. That wasn't my intent. My point was I got unstuck when I realized I was stuck and that the only person that could get me unstuck was myself. So I worked and worked until I got unstuck. So my suggestion would be to explore a hobby or something you want to do and try it for at least a few weeks. Even if you don't love it initially it will get you out doing something away from your spouse and the day to day A stuff. If that particular thing isn't your cup of tea pick another topic/thing and dig into that.
I think you will find that if you can spend some time on you it gives you a different perspective on your M situation whether you are in limbo, R, or whatever. I hope this helps some.
ETA: focusing on you does not mean giving up on the M, unless that is what you want. For me getting unstuck meant focusing my time and energy on me regardless of my situation because I was worth it.you can focus on you and keep working at R or D if you like. The important part is getting yourself back into some kind of decent headspace so you have ways to get distance from your situation even if it's just for an hour or 2 each day.
[This message edited by 7yrsflushed at 10:07 AM, April 10th (Wednesday)]
7yrs -- I would LOVE to have some time to work out, focus on me. BUT - I'm in the last year of tenure track, and really, ALL I should be doing is writing, writing, writing. And when I'm not writing, I should be... writing. The spare time I have left I spend with my kids and working on my marriage. I do manage to make it to the swimming pool a few times a week, but that's about it. *sigh*
M33 -- I am so happy your little ones are doing so well. My DD (now 6) had the braces, too! She wore them from about 2 to 4. She didn't actually start walking until she was nearly 3 -- she actually had a little walker. One of the wonderful things in my life is the fact that this child who had so many things wrong with her early in life is now a happy, healthy kid whose IEP has dwindled to a few oversight services -- from 18 hrs of therapy a week when she was in EI at 2. She's reading, has tons of friends, goes to gymnastics (she's awful, but what the hey!)... It's such a joy. One of the ways I get through this is to focus on my kids and just BE with them -- pure joy. (Which is hard to come by, otherwise.)
Most excellent post 7yrs.
For me it too was a combination.
What I did was focus on me. I made myself far more attractive. I changed the way I treated my W, kids, family and co workers. I read every book on what attractive means and then started to live it.
I changed my attitude. I don't need my wife to be happy. She can choose to join my world or not. I let fate take me.. I pay attention to all the small things and react. Frankly, I care less. My assets mean far less.. My own happiness means most.
I changed the way I conflict with my wife and kids. I think about how I am treated and I never let any bad behaviors go without a discussion about it. But I am very careful how I approach it these days.
I do what I want to do in the scope of it being fun for me and good for the marriage. I fish, golf, lift weights, art, photography, charity, contribute to the community, try to do more things... And more.
MC... Please don't be this man... Allow other parts of there life to emotionally bring them down and then do things that only makes life harder for their own self. So, do not be one of these kind of guys. If this business was a passion keep that brother. Protect yourself. When those feelings come on... Try this.. A phone rings... Think about the phone.... When it rings dive back in...
I have always worked until DDay#1. I was scared to leave my home after that to even go to work as WH#2 had OW living in my home when I was away. At the time I had a dream job at Stanford University and flew out every Sunday and flew back on Thursday. After I quit my dream job I decided to start my own consulting business from home after a few months, but needed a certification to do it. I thought we were in R at the time and took a course out of town for a week to get my certification. During that time away my husband brought OW back into my home again, thus DDay#2. I did not find out about it for about 6wks. By then I had already started my business and was very motivated. After DDay#2, I was once again devastated and my motivation to keep up my business went to crap. I did a few cases for various attorney's, but my heart has not been in it. I also have had two major bleeding episodes since DDay#1, the last in Jan of this year.
I hope this pans out as I really need to get my mind on myself and my business and off of my marriage and WH#2. I have never been like this before and have always been a go getter. Even with my XWH#1 I put myself through college and had two young children at the time and worked a full time job. XWH#1 did not work and was on SSI and had no intention of ever getting off of it and going back to work, so I had to do something to support my kids.
I think getting back into my work to get my mind off of my health and his LTA will really help. Please wish me luck that this pans out. I really need to get my confidence and self-esteem back to what it was prior to this infedility nightmare.
Also I have a question. Has anyone ever had a spouse that seems OK when you are down and out and broke, but when you are successful it seems to make them distant. This has happened in both of my marriages. Neither of my spouses had a college degree and I didn't really care, but seem intimidated by my success and both started affairs when I was at the height of my career. I have always made more money than both of them. Do you think that they can't handle a woman that is successful and makes more money than them. They both went for low life women with no ambition. I know they usually affair down, but is this normal for them to feel intimidated by my success? Is this a common trend for waywards? My WH#2 wants me to work and does not support me finacially. We have totally seperate finaces and always have, so I guess this is confusing for me. Thanks for reading this and any insight would be appreciated. None of the books I have read so far on infedelity have mentioned this.
I too became unstuck once i moved my attention offf of FWW and back on to me. While she read about her issues and saw IC, I detached some. Prior to dday I had begun looking at volunteer work since FWW was having nothing to do with me. I went back to that and found some new activities. I worked out more to maintain and improve my physical health after losing 50# on the BS diet. I made new friends. FWW and I became more like friends than a M couple for a year or two. I let her know what I was doing, she was welcome to come along if she wanted, but I did not plan events around or for us very much.
What's next for me?
MC, WAL used to post how the A was a get out of M free card. I expanded that to anythign in life. Not that I really should have needed an excuse, but I decided that dday could be my justifiable reason for any "re-boot" I wanted to do in my life. After the first 6 months I rededicated to my work and professional stature. That effort is still paying off now. If you are bored with your company, walk away and do waht you want, but do this on your terms, not eased (or tossed) out by nervous investors.
[This message edited by atsenaotie at 3:28 PM, April 10th (Wednesday)]
Trustgone...first, crossing my fingers for you and the job! Second, I am in a very similar situation. I am the breadwinner in our family. I have never ever cared about that, but apparently my wh did. I think it played a huge role in his affair. He also really affaired down. He found someone who NEEDED him. In ways he thought I never did. He played knight in shining armor and was always rescuing her. I love and want my wh...which to me was more important than the kind of needing that money entails. I never had to be with him...I wanted to. However, I think plenty of men can be secure enough to be ok with women earning more, but I apparently did not pick one. That said, this is an issue we have been working through as well.
I am beginning to see that he is only happy being the KISA. I guess after I got the job at Stanford and was making really good money it sent him further into his affair with the needy pathetic OW. He was not really in love with her, but liked that she needed him. I guess it made his self-esteem and ego better to be needed by someone. I needed him, but not finacially and still don't. He has had the same deadend job for 30yrs and has never tried to get a promotion or move into management. He makes good money because he has been there so long, but if he ever gets laid off (which is becoming a real possibility), he would never make anywhere near his pay now. The thing is I really respected that he was dependable and had been on his job for so long and told him that. After being married to XWH#1 who wouldn't work it was a nice change that I found someone like him or so I thought.
I guess I am still trying to make sense out of why he would throw away a good marriage for an old GF he didn't want before we met. I am beginning to think it has alot to do with his wanting to be the KISA, lack of personal boundaries, and his alcoholism. I am trying to focus on me, but it is hard. I have always been a fixer. I guess it comes from my FOO issues growing up in a dysfunctional family (alcoholic, wife beating Dad and abusive, co-dependent mother). I know I can't fix him, but I guess I need to understand exactly what I am dealing with. His first wife was abusive, couldn't keep a job, alcoholic, cheater, basically a total mess and his family couldn't stand her. He however never cheated on her and had always swore that he would get a divorce or seek counceling rather than cheat on me. I guess he lied about that too.
KISA is too much work to keep that suit shiny.. he is in the inside.. whoever is on the outside is the one with the job of polishing the suit
At some point our validation of them no longer feeds them so they have to go elsewhere. My WW specifically told me that she didn't think I needed her. I was/am very successful. I made more money then my WW but she held her own and I always gave her what she needed because I felt it part of my husbandly duties to provide for my family. In my mind my success was OUR success. Me giving her money when she needed it was a bad thing though for some reason. Anyway, my point was that I wasn't supposed to NEED her and she wasn't supposed to NEED me. We were supposed to complement each other but it was easier for her to go out and do all kinds of things for others including A's to seek that validation. Which is ass backwards if you ask me. You do things to help people because you want to or it's the right/noble thing to do. Some KISA's and my WW in particular did it strictly for the accolades/thanks/aadoration they received for being so helpful. All those thank you's are polishing that nice big shiny suit of armor they are wearing.
But let their spouse need them for something, that is just terrible because our thank you's aren't genuine I guess.
[This message edited by 7yrsflushed at 7:56 AM, April 11th (Thursday)]
He came home Monday in a bad mood, proceeded to tell me that even though he was staying, it wasn’t his choice. His choice was to leave, but is staying for me and DD and is resentful of that. I told him point blank, your choice to stay or go -- and your reasons for staying or leaving -- are your own; I refuse to accept responsibility or resentment from you on that point. I asked him again if he was leaving her or leaving me, he said he would stay. That changed five minutes later when I showed him guidelines I had downloaded on how to properly do a NC letter. He ‘just couldn’t do it.’ Accused me of making it a ‘my way or the highway’ situation with my conditions of NC, relinquishing passwords, and counseling. I told him I was willing to talk and compromise, but that he was the one with the ‘my way or the highway’ philosophy – no NC letter, no ‘snooping’, no counseling or he’s gone. He said that he could see that, but he just couldn’t do it, that he “likes the fog”, and could see no way he could ever be happy if he stayed, so he was choosing her, even if it meant destroying his relationship with DD, who has said if he abandons us for OP, she wants nothing to do with him. He started rewriting our family history then, saying that he was always the third wheel to me and DD, which is not true. Everyone called us The Three Musketeers. We were tighter than any other family I’ve ever met. DD thought he hung the f’n moon and made it glow. He would also be screwing his parents, who depend on us financially, but apparently they don’t matter to him anymore, either.
I broke down, crying hysterically, throwing up, shaking. At one point I actually started choking on my own phlegm – I felt like I was drowning. Pathetic, really, but I couldn’t control it. He asked if he could sleep in our bed to keep an eye on me, since earlier I told him to go sleep on the couch, and I let him but wish I hadn’t – he held my hand but wouldn’t hold me because he didn’t want to send me ‘mixed messages.’ I hadn’t asked for him to hold me, but apparently he thought I deserved one more knife in my heart.
Yesterday I cried all day, he told me to calm down and relax – don’t look for apartments, don’t pack, just put the top down on my car and chill at the beach with DD and we would talk that night, but when we got home, he said he just wanted to relax with us, watch Arrow, let DD sleep with us and cuddle and we’ll talk tomorrow (tonight) over coffee while DD is at orchestra rehearsal.
I’m a wreck again today. So exhausted. Can’t stop crying. I have no idea what he’s going to say tonight. Is he going to flip-flop on me again, or finally release the lever on the guillotine for good? Do I even have the energy to care anymore? He was my epic love, he was father of the year, he was my everything. Now he is just some selfish, heartless, cake-eating bastard who shreds me daily in the most cruel ways possible and then when I get a backbone and say I’m done – reels me in just enough to give me hope and start the cycle all over again. And I’m such an idiot I fall for it. Every. Single. Time.
I drove by her house yesterday. Her BS’s car was in the driveway. I sat in my car across the street for 10-15 minutes, thinking I should go tell him. He deserves to know that just yesterday morning his W was sending love poetry to my H. But I couldn’t do it. I have never known such pain, and the thought of inflicting that pain on someone else, even though I know logically I would not be to blame for it… I just couldn’t do it.
All my posts are edited - I hate typos. :)
I am so, so sorry about your suffering. The resolve you showed in the narrative of the first paragraph was inspiring. Rally around your ability to draw on that.
Your instincts are right to not let him be close to you at this point. You need to protect yourself.
I feel that telling the other BS will have benefits. Maybe take a friend with you to tell the guy so you have support. It was the most difficult phone call I have made in my life, but I am glad I did. And I am sure that she is as well.
I did not have an M as good as yours was. So, I can only imagine your sense of loss. Again I am so sorry and have you in my prayers.
Her BH absolutely deserves to know what his WW is doing. Please give him the courtesy of knowledge and power so he can make decisions based on what's truly going on in his life. And so he can get tested for STDs.
I also believe that shedding light on their affair will knock both WS off the fences they're sitting on. Your WH might not make the choice you want him to make but at least you would be able to start moving in one direction, instead of being pushed & pulled as he wishes.
I'm sorry you are dealing with this. I know it sucks for you and your DD.