Looking back I should have seen it 20 years ago, but I was naive. I was just glad to have made a 'good catch'.
MC_J, do not give yourself too much grief over this. Naive, ignorant, whatever; I suspect that it was not in your scope of experience to expect or anticipate this. FWW would tell me her mother was an alcoholic. I just did not understand, in my family alcohol and drinking was always associated with good times and fun. When I met my MIL I did not pick up on any evilness. I saw FWW being flirty and engaging as cute. Unless you and your WW had some commonality fo experience, it is hard to anticipate and see these issues in an otherwise highly functioning individual.
FWIW, FWW is the only one to bring up A stuff for over a year now. She is still processing and I believe triggers more than I do. These conversations are difficult when I want to comfort her (after all we are in R), but I do not like picking at the scabs.
If she can just express how mortified, embarrassed, humilated, or whatever that she is using her blaming and anger to cover up I think we'll be on the road to progress.
All along though I have felt that she is hiding some deep secret shame. Looking back I should have seen it 20 years ago, but I was naive. I was just glad to have made a 'good catch'.
You typed this a few pages back.
7yrs et al: It is a matter of patience. She knows the issues at hand. She knows the pain she caused. She only has a certain amount of emotional capacity on a daily level to handle 'issues'.
ETA: again MC_Jack I don't mean to be the glass half empty dude but just trying to give my perspective. My WW was doing everything i needed until she wasn't. That's when i realized i was in false R and the problem wasn't that she was doing everything i needed it was that she wasn't doing anything to fix herself.
[This message edited by 7yrsflushed at 3:25 PM, March 18th (Monday)]
emotional capacity to lead double lives for years then they have the mental fortitude to handle some self introspection
In the book "Sexual Detours" the authoress opines that A's are signs of a fear of intimacy. At least for this A, where the OM was in Florida, I think it was 'light' duty denial. A phone call every week or three, maybe some texts at the end of work on Thursdays. Meaning, it seems the A preyed upon my WW's lack of emotional capacity. Like a drug hit.
7yrs, don't u mean half empty?
[This message edited by MC_Jack at 3:21 PM, March 18th (Monday)]
Today I got more crap related to my talking with the other BS during Jan/Feb. If you remember, I made the 'mistake' of being candid with my WW in regards to what the other BS said (and what she said the OM said).
I was curious to know WHY this topic came up again so many weeks later? Did something happen for her to again be upset about your contact with the MOM's W? I am not by any means saying you did a single thing. I am trying to get into your WW's brain and understand why she would bring it up again out of the blue.
7yrs, don't u mean half empty?
she has been waking up with this anger - this morning I hadn't even spoken yet except that we should get up and get the kids ready
I read this and the hairs on the back of my neck went up (I really need to shave them better). I am not sure why, but this screams continued contact with OM to me. Either she was in contact and then he went NC with her after you notified BS, or maybe he is contacting her threatening to reveal some thing in retaliation. I dunno, just a weird, antsy feeling from that one line.
[This message edited by atsenaotie at 3:36 PM, March 18th (Monday)]
Either she was in contact and then he went NC with her after you notified BS, or maybe he is contacting her threatening to reveal some thing in retaliation.
It wouldn't be the first scenario. I notified the other BS the week after my WW immediately told me that she got a fishing phone call message out of the blue from OM in Jan. after she gave him the NC speel in April.
Now, I wonder about the second one. Or possibly that she is worried that I might find something out that I do not know since I seem to be 'ok' talking to the other BS. BTW, I did go NC with the other BS 2 weeks ago if you remember and then got a strange text message (probably from OM) telling me to go f*ck myself.
[This message edited by MC_Jack at 3:51 PM, March 18th (Monday)]
Somehow when I was reading the posts I missed all the posts of you explaining that your WW has been bringing it up REPEATEDLY. I have quite a few problems with this. Your WW and I have a few similarities in our situations. She knew the MOM years ago, just as I did mine. There is a VERY long history there, a friendship for lack of better terms. You are one year out from D Day. I can bet my life it is all about your WW's hatred and anger toward herself. She is having an impossible time dealing with her consequences. HER actions are what led to what is now HER past. That is very hard for her to wrap her mind around. I know you have said that she is remorseful and transparent etc, that she has taken all the "steps" for R. But what about the steps she needs to take to reconcile the issues within herself.
I know you have said she is a surgeon. To so many the thought of someone who is a surgeon is of someone who is powerful and "all together". Your WW's underlying self truth is ANYTHING but that. As far as I remember it, the MOM is STILL with his W. As someone else said, your WW does not have the luxury of "doing the mental work" every so often, it has to be a daily process. It feels like she is burying her head and making you the fall guy. Is she trying to get an uproar out of you? Why would she continue to mention the MOM for THREE days straight, especially from your recount, you were having some very nice days.
This is a VERY hard question I am going to put out there. I hope it is okay. Do you think your WW wanted to leave you for MOM? Was there talk of them going forward together and ending both marriages? I only ask, because something is not sitting right within her. It feels to me like your WW is jealous of the MOM's W. She feels "out of the loop" with MOM. She feels embarrassed of her actions and is not facing her horrible choices, instead she is getting angry. I thought I remembered your WW saying that she thinks you are "mismatched", I apologize if I am confusing your WW with someone else. I think she is still in the WW fog somehow, and romanticizing her past with MOM, which in turn, makes you the wrong choice if in her mind MOM is the RIGHT choice and she is finding reasons to back up her wayward thinking.
I very much agree with Tryin's advice most times, mainly because I wish my BH would be able to get to that point. However, I don't know if your WW is at the point where the A cannot be mentioned again. Even Tryin has said that he has only been able to do this for a little less then a year. That means he and his FWW had two years prior to "the quality method" when his FWW's A was being discussed. I don't think your WW should be "allowed" to dictate your healing. I COMPLETELY agree that you should not contact her at work, that is not fair. But for her to put SO many rules and regulations on when and where you are allowed to discuss your questions or hurts or concerns I don't believe is correct. I am ALL for you being "quality" it is never to soon for that, but that doesn't mean that YOU as the BH should have to bury your hurt and thoughts because your WW "can't deal".
Yes make it clear that you have forgiven her, but only IF you HAVE TRULY forgiven her, like I said you are only at the one year mark. I feel you are attempting to get to the end of the road by taking short cuts. You will keep slipping back if all the issues aren't addressed.
OM could be giving your W all kinds of shit for exposing him.
"honey, I am here to protect you.. do you need me? If someone has threatened you I have the ablity to bust them up.." That kinda man talk goes a long way believe it or not. be serious.
Just don't tell my IC I told you that one.
Do you think your WW wanted to leave you for MOM?
Whatever you do, NO Accusing.. Accusing can empty the ole love bucket. If you accuse..
"honey, are you sure you don't want to tell me something?"
"oh well, in time I guess it will come out"
That way, you are not really accusing but placing pressure. I am a stong believer that bad behavoir show up when you pressure.. Even something like above.
[This message edited by trynhard at 4:23 PM, March 18th (Monday)]
explaining that your WW has been bringing it up REPEATEDLY
I wouldn't call it repeatedly, but it has been an issue the last few days.
Why would she continue to mention the MOM for THREE days straight
She actually has not really mentioned him, just the other BW, and anger at my having conversations with her and me reporting what she said.
Do you think your WW wanted to leave you for MOM? Was there talk of them going forward together and ending both marriages?
Yes she did want to leave me for MOM. That was her fantasy. The MOM never, ever even went there. He rebuffed all the times my WW asked if there would be anything 'more'. He always said that the FWB arrangement was the most it would be....and that was pretty good. She was hoping for more.
I don't think your WW should be "allowed" to dictate your healing.
She isn't. The choice to not bring up the affair has been mine privately. Nothing I have promised to her. I am trying to minimize the dwelling.
ALSO, the other BW filed for divorce last month. They are not staying together as the MOM has been lying and not remorseful in the slightest.
[This message edited by MC_Jack at 4:20 PM, March 18th (Monday)]
ALSO, the other BW filed for divorce last month
I am sure this does not make you feel safe. Have faith brother...
Keep a keen sense of awareness on all things.. keep the focus on the all good for the M.. be positive, be kind, be that quality man at all cost.. do not get rattled.
If she does not give reciprocity.. you can address with calm pressure.
They are not staying together as the MOM has been lying and not remorseful in the slightest.
Your W does know 90% of all AP marriages fail.
[This message edited by trynhard at 4:33 PM, March 18th (Monday)]
Ok, as a FWW going by your WW's latest actions in mentioning the BW, which is by extension, mentioning the MOM. So the MOM never wanted more, but your WW was desperately wanting to end your M. I feel that your WW was COMPLETELY jealous of the MOM's BW during the LTA. Your WW wanted him to leave her, he wouldn't. Now THAT woman is talking to you and getting MORE details of your WW. I think it is making your WW's blood boil.
ALSO, the other BW filed for divorce last month. They are not staying together as the MOM has been lying and not remorseful in the slightest.
I know you said that NC has been in place. I would just ask that you continue working on yourself. You cannot worry about "what if she leaves" because if she does, she was never really "here" to begin with. What was your WW's reaction when she found this out? Did you guys talk about it?
Tryin is right, you can invite her, let her know you love her and want to talk about whatever she needs to, but closing you out is not good for the M. My only thought is, that if she is getting pulled back into the fog and spending her time contemplating the "what ifs" with MOM, then the scales are not balanced.
I hope your WW gets into IC on a weekly basis. She needs to be strong for herself and figure out her reasons, shortcomings and all. It is hardest to face yourself, but it can be done.
Your WW is finally facing some 'consequences' for her actions.
That's why she's so prickly about your communication with the other BS.
And that is exactly why telling the other BS is so valuable.
The more reality that the WS has to face the better the chances are that she will finally 'wake up'.
Keeping it all a big secret just allows the WS to pretend that the LTA either didn't happen, or wasn't really that bad.
Protecting the WS from the natural consequences IMHO is always a bad idea.
But,I agree with everyone else that there is something fishy going on with your WW.
Whether she is in contact with the OM or not ...I'm not sure....
But one thing that I do know and that is ....the BS should not be the WS' therapist!
I know that the MC in your name does not stand for MC but it sounds like you feel it is your responsibility as her husband to psychoanalyze her and get her to understand herself and face her demons.
That is not your role!
What you should do is set very clear boundaries and expectations....one of which would be IC.
Everything that you say about your WW points to the fact that she would benefit so much from IC.
A WS that does not do the internal work remains 'stuck' in the toxic thinking.
IC was crucial for my FWH.
I told her that breaking NC was crossing a boundary. In the aftermath of hearing all about my pow wows with the BW, including disparaging remarks, she was angry...at MOM....wondering if he was behind those things said.
I wonder if she broke down and called the guy to vent and now realizes what an error she has made. Hence, better to blame me.
I do disagree with you that it might be something 'simple' like her contacting the OM because she was upset that he had shared their 'secrets' with his BW.
To me...there is nothing simple about that.
I would be horrified if I found out that my FWH was contacting the OW for any reason!
And if she is truly committed to R she should not care what the OM is saying to anyone.
The fact that she cares what he says is troubling.
She should also be 100% supportive of you and not criticize you for contacting the other BS.
The WS does not get to control how the BS deals with the aftermath of the LTA.
I completely agree with Njgal.
My gut is SO unsettled for you tonite. Hope you find the right way for you and your W in your M.
i have learned over the years that when people falsely accuse its usually because they are indeed guilty of whatever it is they are accusing of.....blameshifting is a deflection......
there is more then not taking ownership here.....
the red flags are waving wildly......i know i am prob too late before you talk to her...but tread lightly and let her do ALL the talking and just listen.....you'd be surprised how much people talk to fill the silence...unless she is really good and has no guilt...in which case the silence will be a welcome relief to her...
i hope i am wrong...my gut would be screaming....
Anyway, maybe your WW is jealous. That could be true. Especially if OM gave her the I need to work on my family speech, and his BW is leaving him and your WW is still out of the picture.
Honestly, it took my husband a LONG time to come out of the "fog". I don't think it was really until a year and a half out, a couple of things happened that snapped him out of it -- one was that our daughter's godmother started having an A and seeing it from the outside with a good male friend of his as the BH really showed him how totally un-cool it is. Especially the part where all our other friends would laugh at her behind her back. Not her BH -- her. I think during his A he was running with a crowd that thought the WS behavior was so cool -- and once he started socializing more with me and the kids instead of "working late" or "being too tired" on weekends he got a real view of how some people with great families who he really liked and respected see that sort of behavior which was another wakeup call.
He actually took that BH with him as his Super Bowl traveling companion back in February. The couple came to visit us in our new place not long after and the WW was really irked that her BH didn't answer her calls or texts for over 24 hours at one point and she had to call my WH to see if her BH was ok, etc.
Later, when my WH brought up how mad and rattled she was, I said "Good for her BH. She's cheating on him, it's good for her to realize that her BH has options too and is just fine without her. If you were cheating on me now I think I'd give you a taste of your own medicine too." My WH was a little startled by that.
A lot of times the WS frames the BS in a light that helps them keep the WS mentality with the least guilt and least anxiety. Many WS's think their BS's are "safe" people. Many WS's are very much for their marriages, others think their marriage is a fail-safe backup plan... they're certainly not nurturing the marriage but they often believe they can NOT nurture the marriage with no consequences.
My WW godmother to Baby Paddy friend is doing a (very cool) blog as her New Year's resolution this year and in her description of "why a blog" she describes her BH as "a computer geek." Well, he's good with computers but he's far from being a geek. He's good-looking, very cool, very chill, in excellent physical shape even in his late 40's, fantastic with their daughter and coaches her teams and does 1/2 or more of the parenting duties, and he makes a LOT of money. Her OM is a LOSER. But she's got to frame her husband as a "geek" to justify her A with a person who is inferior to her BH is pretty much every way. Her OM is nearly 20 years younger than her though.
It reminds me of that Alanis Morisette lyric "I know you sexualize me like a young thing would, and I think I like it."
One of my friends was the OM in an affair like that when we were in our mid-20's. And the BH knew about it. My friend was very afraid of intimacy. He had a LONG history of "dating" women who were not available. He did eventually marry a wonderful woman and doesn't cheat on her though (to the best of my knowledge.)
H&C.. you have to know your good is coming. Let her go. You give her what she wants. One day, she will regret what she has done but your train left the station.
And D closes the door as I will move on with a better life. It will be difficult to adjust as my joy in life over the past 20 years has been my family. That is where I have placed al my time, love and spirit. And I have no regrets for doing so!
One of the saddest times in my life. See IC this afternoon.