A lot of the banter is in relation to men working on their marriages. Working on the marriage now also includes looking at the M in the past.
I have always gotten the sense that many BSs here on SI feel that because they got cruelly betrayed, that they don't have anything to improve upon, whether it is themselves or their share of the M.
It's a delicate dance, taking your responsibility for the M but not the A.
For me, I just want be better, higher 'quality' for me, my M, my WW or if not her someone else.
I totally understand what Laura is seeing and feeling.
Your d-day is very recent.
I predict that a year or so from now once you've been on that emotional roller coaster ride you will understand what we are referring to......
Maybe the quality man, rug sweeping, making excuses, allowing the WS to continue to dictate how to R based on their own selfish needs etc may work for you....
but maybe you will see the cumulative wisdom of the the veterans on SI and realize that a slightly different approach may have worked better.
I agree with Laura and many others in the LTA tribe feel the same way.
Some have spoken up.
Others are just reading .
And others have simply stopped checking in because they disagree with the tone it has taken.
In fact, the direction that the discussions have taken on the LTA forum lately make me feel like leaving the forum as well.
It has not been a safe place for the BS.
The point of this forum is to support those that have been betrayed by their WS LTAs.
Not to berate them or try to make them feel responsible for their WS choices.
If you want to support the WS then look to the Waywards forum.
But actually,on that forum you will not find many posts making excuses for the WS or posts advising to rug sweep, or advice to and coddle the WS because we don't want them to feel bad when confronted with what they had done.
Instead this seems to be the place where that is discussed.
And once again IMHO not the best advice if you hope to R.
Rug sweeping never works.
We see it over and over on SI.
Often its BH's hoping that if they can forgive and forget quickly and not hold the WW accountable than all will get back to normal ASAP.
it doesn't work because there are no consequences, no reality, no wake up call and the WW continues in the same toxic thinking, blaming the BS, not taking ownership for the bad behavior, not learning anything new about herself, not showing sympathy or empathy for the BS or the OM's BS.
The WS are continuing to make selfish decisions.
The little snippet that you shared about your WW's refusal to help the other BS is all based on selfishness.
She's not concerned about the OM punching you in the nose!
She's concerned about covering her a...
Keeping her reputation, hiding the truth,lying.
yeah...of course...because her years of lying, blame shifting, cheating, hiding the truth worked out so well....why would you want to change that behavior?
another issue that has been discussed is the fear of holding the WS accountable?
its not a punishment.
its a help.
It's the only way to help the WS have an epiphany and finally realize that the way they have been living their life is not right.
And that they need to change.
Hopefully, after an epiphany they want to change.
That's the other thing....if your WS is not 100% on board with R...then you are not in R!
And being a perfect husband will not convince her.
She needs to do some internal searching to try to figure herself out and what she wants once and for all.
We used to have a variety of people posting that were in many different stages.
We don't see that any longer.
How can a BS that divorced her WS feel comfortable posting when she reads that all she had to do to save her marriage was to become a better wife!
How can a newbie that just found out about an LTA be able to find comfort in posts that tell her that all she has to do love her man and he will stop cheating or never cheat again....because it was after all her fault that he cheated.
Like the example given the other day- the WS was staying out late after work to screw around with the OM but the BH was equally at fault because he stayed out late doing work because he was providing for his family!
How can you even compare those two things?
The BS was doing what a good husband and father was supposed to do-working to provide for his family!
Meanwhile ,what was the family benefit of the wife staying out late to screw with her OM?
I am in a solid R but then again I am 6 and 1/2 yrs post d-day but it breaks my heart to think about what a newbie might go through reading some of this advice!
I know that I was such a wreck after d-day that I basically laid on the floor in a heap and a puddle of tears.
I did not find SI right away. I found another support site and spent a few years there.
But, if I had read some of the blame shifting posts at that vulnerable time?
It would have pushed me over the edge.
We have to remember that we have a variety of people on the LTA forum.
Some are brand new and completely devastated by the discovery.
Some have remorseful WS that want to R others are dealing with remorseless spouses that are continuing their cheating ways.
Some are divorcing.
And still others are in limbo.
What we all have in common is that our WS had LTAs.
A very different kind of infidelity issue to deal with.
Not a momentary lapse in judgement or a drunken ONS but years of lies, deceit and betrayal.
Many of us on SI were completely devastated by our WS infidelity.
There are women here on the LTA forum that suffered heart attacks after d-day and were hospitalized-later diagnosed with broken heart syndrome.
A very real heart condition found in women that have suffered severe stress and grief.
Other BS needed to seek out psychiatric help after d-day due to suffering a an emotional breakdown.
Some needed to be hospitalized for a few days.
What we discuss here is emotional and powerful and not banter.
I am one that finds themselves in the camp of BS was not at fault for the A but can always work to be a better person as we can whether there is an A or not. If someone though is a able to coop with their A though by focusing on improving themselves – why is that so wrong. I think one major thing I have learned on SI that Trynhard pointed out himself is that there are MAJOR differences in how men and women deal with finding out their spouse had an A.
When I found out that my WW had a 12 year LTA it was a major blow. I broke down a couple of times – the most difficult thing I have had to come to terms with is unless I want to put my kids through testing I will never know with 100% certainty that they are even my own. However, my day to day life after finding out is not filled with emotional rollercoasters. I get up every day focused on going to work to provide and take care of my family. Yes, my free moments that I am left to think are often filled with how did this happen, why did this happen and how can I prevent it from happening again. Yes, I am pissed off at times over the whole thing.
I feel so bad for those stories that I read on here where the BS is so overcome with emotions over the whole thing that they can barely get out of bed. Those stories are always BW though. I think as BHs, we are focused on logically getting through this rather than emotionally getting through this. As a BH, I think I have even turned off many of my emotions as an early coping mechanism to begin the process to move forward. For me whatever coping mechanism that can provide focus to get me through this is what I am are seeking. For Trynhard if that is a strong focus on being a quality man – I totally respect that he has found his focus to provide himself strength and rebuild his self-esteem. There is nothing wrong with that – I don’t fully agree with his logic and I know that for me I need to find my own – but for me to understand what he needed to do to coop with his LTA it helps me in finding my own.
We need to be careful in being overly critical of anyone particular approach on here in dealing with their own LTA. NJ is totally right that the only thing that we have in common on here is that we all share in having to deal with a LTA. I think each of us on here finds posts from others that we relate more to than others because even though we all share having to deal with a LTA, all of our experiences are very much different. I do find this LTA forum a safe place as a BS myself and it has been very helpful in my journey having to deal with that.
I respectfully disagree on some of your points.
I do agree that banter was a flippant word.
I don't see the rugsweeping you are talking about. So maybe I missed it.
But, I can only refer to my own situation and the phone bills issue that I asked for help on and was much discussed. My WW has told EVERYONE that we are associated with (work, fam, friends) that she is the cheater. She has told me everything I have asked. She supported me calling the other BS. We are in therapy.
The other BS is fully capable of asking her attorney to subpoena her H's cell phone bills. My WW does not want our docs in other's hands. I understand that while my opinion differs from hers. The other BS is not helpless. I am not on her legal team.
I don't see how that (not wanting to send bills) is false R or dictating R or whatever. What does sending bills have anything to do with my healing or R?
[This message edited by MC_Jack at 1:25 AM, March 2nd (Saturday)]
I don't see how that (not wanting to send bills) is false R or dictating R or whatever. What does sending bills have anything to do with my healing or R?
I think the thing that concerns me most about the way this forum has been going in the last few days is the threat (open or covertly mentioned) of separating and divorce. I have mentioned divorcing fWH three times in six years. I think it, sure. In fact hardly a week goes by when I don’t contemplate my future as a divorcee. I would never use separation or divorce as a threat or leverage. It doesn’t work. All it does is fuel insecurity and suspicion.
Ultimatums are fixed. That’s why they are called ultimatums. If something is a dealbreaker and the spouse says “if you [whatever] then we are done” then that should be it. Yelling the D word or making threats doesn’t help. I’m a great believer in carrying out a threat, otherwise it means nothing. Boundaries and lines can be moved when you don’t believe the threat.
The first time was when I found details of their hotel trysts on some old credit card statements. I looked up the various establishments on the internet and got myself absolutely furious. fWH was due in late and I left the message on his desk “I WANT A DIVORCE” with the printouts of the hotels (one fucktel was called “The Staff of Life”, I mean, REALLY?!?!). Another was after finding out lying by omission and saying I couldn’t live with someone who wasn’t an open book. And last month, after being away and him not mentioning MOW had replied. He insisted he told me as soon as I got home – he didn’t. I think he played it out in his head, but didn’t actually tell me. He has spoken to one of my gf’s, saying he is worried about me, when I said I thought it best we talk about divorce he said I should go see the GP and get some ADs as he thinks I am chronically depressed.
It has been shelved for the time being. The Big Talk will be as DS finishes school. And it will involve all the things I have had to do because he wouldn’t. He hasn’t read a book or visited any websites, he hasn’t done IC (although he did come to MC at my instigation) or dealt with MOW as he should have (he ignored advice on that one), he hasn’t been an open book and he has lied by omission on numerous occasions since d-day. He has spend 6yrs sitting in the wings, doing little and waiting for it all to go away so we can go back to “normal”. I have tried to get him to see things from over here, I have no doubt he loves me and wants the marriage, but I just cannot see us moving on from where he has cemented us. I gave him a 37 page document on our marriage and he picked up on four or five things. And then wouldn’t discuss them!
As for forgiveness. I don’t have to forgive him. Not for me and certainly not for him. To me, like a murderer will always have that label, fWH will always be an adulterer. He will never lose the fact he chose to be unfaithful. I have accepted what he did and that is as far as I am prepared to go. I don’t wear a ring and I make no promises. He doesn’t wear a ring either (although he has one) and he has been unable to make me any promises other than he won’t lie to me again. Which he has done, so he can’t keep a promise anyway.
I am not the person I was. I would say I was a much nicer and better person, wife and mother before d-day. This has made me cynical, broken, brittle and angry. And I will never accept even 1% responsibility for either the affair or the failure of the marriage. I was completely unaware that he had checked out. Actually, he hadn’t checked out, he was living a duplicitous life and loving it! He isn’t the same person either. He has shrunk and lost a lot of his arrogant confidence. I see a much weaker man.
I still say I like him and that is enough for now. It’s a marriage of sorts and works for us in its current way.
Now to something else I would like to comment on:
How was I so blind and how cunning was it that my WW and AP could cover up a double life so well?
I think we want so much to believe in the goodness of our mate,that we choose not to see things until they are so 'in our face' we cant deny them anymore.
The longer an affair goes on, the fact that both parties are prepared to keep it as an affair, the more complacent the WS becomes and the affair is absorbed into their life. It becomes routine, habit, just something they don’t share with the spouse. And so their normal becomes our normal too. But the paradox is the longer it goes on, the harder it is for it to end. They can never quite trust each other so that the BS’s will never know, after all, the “relationship” has been based upon deceit. And so they cannot get off this particular merry go round.
And to repeat:
#1. Because they could. #2. Because they wanted to. I just do not see much BS blame in those two reasons.
And now I have to find out the chit and see if BH or MOW have picked up the letter……….
ETA - still not collected.
[This message edited by UKgirl at 6:39 AM, March 2nd (Saturday)]
I have read a whole bunch of books about a whole bunch of thing, in therapy, IC, MC, attended marriage workshops.. on and on.. I know this, there are many different ways to go about things. Some may work for one, and not another. I trust people here are smart enough to figure all this out when enough of us give them some ideas.. The can agree or disagree. I’m good with that. I know I throw some wacky things out..
Heck, you guys thought I was crazy for telling Gotta a different way to get her H to expose himself, to quit on his own. I was amazed at those who totally misunderstood what I was trying to instruct her to do. They just completely missed the ramping up pressure and focused only on “you cannot love him back.”. She didn’t execute it like I had suggested but ultimately she did what she had to do. She’s moving forward! GOOD.
Reconciliation goes through phases.
The first is the BS overcoming the great sense of loss.
The second is recommitting or quitting
The third is rebuilding
While in a phase of overcoming the great sense of loss, saying things like what I have said goes against ego. Our super ego ends grief. The agreeing and disagree in all these post is trying to make one post for someone in the first phase and someone in third while also dealing with someone in the second. It’s mass confusion.. How do we separate this out?
But I do know this, To Reconcile, both the BS and WS must now be totally honest with each other.
- The WS must totally give up their lover.
- Rather than assigning blame, both BS and WS must confront those parts of yourself that led to the affair and both change. Both must be accountable. This some folks seem to disagree.
- Your feelings may betray you. Your decision to stay married should not be based on feelings alone, but deliberate and well-considered.
Gotta for example is dealing with her man not giving up his lover. I can admire her greatly for taking the deliberate and well-considered route. She is also in the great sense of loss phase. She might know nothing is perfect in a M. Should she be working on rebuilding? Hell NO. She should be 180 to see if her H wakes up. Her H must be totally honest with himself..Until then, she must move forward to end. He may never wake up
MC.. RSEB, ReunitePangea maybe Smitty, Nomorethankyou.. seem to be moving or in the rebuilding. They need to focus on themselves, being quality. Too me, if they focus on being quality, it is very likely this will be returned to them in reciprocity.
H&C.. he might be more like Gotta but trying to get to rebuilding. They might be in more of the deciding to recommit or quit stage.
Laura, I think she is still struggling a bit. She has been quality but still hurt. Maybe her H is not filling her needs?
Nell, me, ats, nj, FNF, M3, dip, SisterMilk, deeppurple maybe 7yrs & other old timers our grief is over. We can be pretty frank with each other. We have resolution in our own minds.
Honest.. She’s seems in a good place dealing with someone mentally ill.
Uk. I’m not sure but she sure does give some great advice IMO... LOL..
I’m sure I missed others and we have folks just pop in for a post or two..
This next comment is about rebuilding…
For any of the newbies here, please don't buy into the idea that you were in any way responsible for your S' LTA. THIS IS TOTALLY UNTRUE! No marriage is perfect. No partner is perfect. What keeps someone from crossing the line and betraying the very ones they made a commitment to honor, love and obey is a strong sense of values, love of family, commitment to one's own value system and a healthy dose of self esteem and belief in one's own value.
And everyone here should know my post are not about assigning blame, but confronting ourselves.
I know this about my experience. All the little things we do, what we said, what we did or did not do, how we approached our M from the very beginning of our relationship did in fact have some cause and effect result. Our ego can protect us in our grief. Fine.
The devastating violations our spouses made was not the right way. The BS was searching for happiness and went about it in the most hurtful way.
We should accept it. It is what it is.
We can say our own behaviors and values were as good as it gets. Maybe our values were as good as they can be, but to think your own behaviors were stellar, I know you will be doing yourself a disservice. And yes, no M is perfect, nobody is perfect. We can know we did the best to our own ability at that time and that can be the truth. No one person can make another stray. Nobody can tell me you were almost perfect and you don’t need to improve. If you were perfect, your spouse would not risk losing you. Nobody throws away perfect unless they are sociopath or totally narcissistic. Both extremely rare.
But to reconcile, stop yourself from placing blame on your spouse and focus on YOU. That is the secret I expose to achieve your own happiness. The focus on YOU will protect you, give you power, make you feel better.
Any way, I must go love my W with service. Painting.
she be working on rebuilding? Hell NO. She should be 180 to see if her H wakes up. Her H must be totally honest with himself..Until then, she must move forward to end.
Rather than assigning blame, both BS and WS must confront those parts of yourself that led to the affair and both change. Both must be accountable. This some folks seem to disagree.
Tryn, I'm not being nit picky, but I believe it's an important point. I agree that when both partners make the decision to try to R, the BS should look at thier contribution to the decay of the MARRIAGE, not their contribution that led to the A. They did not MAKE their S make the decision to have an affair. It makes the BS feel as though they were at fault somehow and get stuck in the "shoulda's coulda's" and feel they had control over the WS's decision.
I do agree that the only thing we can control is ourselves. We can look back at the M to see what went wrong to make the marriage not work.
I agree with Tryn that Focusing on ourselves to improve ourselves irregardless of what the WS does is very important for the BS's healing and ability to move forward. That's the only thing we can control is ourselves.
But I do know that no matter how hard some BS's tried, the A was going to happen because that was the way the WS decided to deal with their feelings. NPD told me point blank that one woman was never enough for him. Even if he left OW, he would find another. If he D me, he would find 2 more plus OW.
Honest.. She’s seems in a good place dealing with someone mentally ill.
Actually, I'm in a very, bad place. I'm not at the intense, stabbing pain phase where I'm crying all day, but am at a very quiet depressed stage where it's a struggle just to do normal everyday things.
"Oh, why do my actions have consequences?" ~ Homer Simpson
"She knew my one weakness: That I'm weak!" ~ Homer Simpson
I agree that when both partners make the decision to try to R, the BS should look at thier contribution to the decay of the MARRIAGE, not their contribution that led to the A.
Plenty of people make do with someone who would not have been their first choice. Plenty of people keep that kind of secret knowing their love chose someone else. It wasn’t like that for me. Once I fell in love with Mr UKg, that was it. I never thought of being with anyone else. Naive, perhaps. Blind love and blind trust, certainly. And if I had asked about his “life long love”? He wouldn’t have told me the truth – why on earth would he? He was making do with me. I just didn’t know it.
There was nothing I could have done. Even if I had known about their first email or their first meeting, the affair was going to happen. The only thing I could have done was to tell him to do the decent thing, move out and allow me divorce him and let him have his first love back.
He saw her name and was gone. He didn’t want to lose his family over something that might be a rerun of the same octane fuelled torment and was testing before making a choice. Except he couldn’t get out of it once he was in. When we use the phrase “web of deceit” it is just that. A fly caught up and the more he struggled, the more hopelessly entangled he became. So he gave up struggling and just waited. There were elements he got from her that he didn’t from me – I’m not a doey eyed useless fawning female looking to her KISA. And he loved that bit.
Even if he could have seen the fall out of his affair in some crystal ball, he would still have done it. He had klaxons blaring and he took no notice. Other marriages devastated by adultery were all around – and some were good friends. He saw the tears, the weight losses, the pleading, and the regrets and he still went ahead. Except he did everything to make sure he wouldn’t be found out. He was very, very good in conducting and controlling his affair.
The idea of taking any responsibility for his choices when I did nothing wrong just makes me angry. God help me if I’d have had a full time job too – that would have added weight to his list of excuses.
We could be damn near perfect and still find flaws that contribute to the marriage crumbling. But the idea of a marriage is that you see things through together, you don’t hold secrets and you talk things through. Once the WS has embarked on an affair as an answer to their unmet needs, then all hope of holding things together has gone. It is the planting and setting of the affair bomb, knowing it will be triggered some time in the future and the chances of defusing it to make it safe are pretty near nil. And then when it has exploded, the WS seems all surprised and shocked and not a little upset that the landscape of the marriage and life has changed. And their BS is scarred forever. Even if the reconciliation is complete, the affair has taken its toll.
Group hug?? (((((Tribe)))))
[This message edited by hisfool at 2:54 PM, March 2nd (Saturday)]
I am probably in a minority of one here.
Maybe, maybe not. I do not see responsibility for m334455 or honest for decay in their marriages. Alcohol seemed a bigger cause if the M decay than NJgal in her M. WS personality traits led to the decay in the M and A for old_dip and I. Bell and others provide specific examples of how they were trying to recapture their relationships.
Sure there nay be some who abandoned it pushed their spouse away prior to the A, but I see more than a few in LTA where it is unfair to assign a significant portion, let alone 50%, of the pre-A martial problems to them.
Even where the BS owns a significant portion of the pre-A M problems, I do not believe these can be effectively addressed until both parties are well into recovery from the A.
ETA, hisfool too. Intimacy issues in her WS led to decay in the M.
[This message edited by atsenaotie at 3:45 PM, March 2nd, 2013 (Saturday)]
Exactly...He has been diagnosed with avoidant personality disorder.
I can see he has struggled much to just be open enough to talk to me and share his feelings with me. He has been more open with me since the first of this year than EVER before. He actually talks to me,shows he's human,and what seems to me,(with my eyes WIDE open) authenticity in his sorrow for wasting most of his life and most of my life too. He has SO many FOO issues. Thankful he's getting IC,but I still am stuck as to where that leaves me in this mess of my life.
[This message edited by hisfool at 3:55 PM, March 2nd (Saturday)]
What I will do is 50% of the work to get over this, some days it feels like more than that on account of me researching and finding resources and staying on track despite excruciating pain.
My husband insists his decision to have an affair was absolutely nothing to do with me, even when I give him the option to assign responsibility.
Each person's M has a different history. That means each of us has different levels of responsibility, happiness, work to do, upside, etc. No relation to the WS affair choice.
I never tried to be the best. I was just me. And the me I used to be was a lovely person. I liked who I was. I didn’t have to be the best, I knew I was enough. I loved my family, my dogs, my friends, my life. I was happy. WH decided at some point that this wasn’t what he wanted anymore. Midlife crisis? I don’t know. I didn’t have time for a midlife crisis! There was always something for me to deal with and mostly I dealt with things on my own. As WH became more detached, I supported him by doing more until I was more or less a single parent, with him as another one for me to take care of. Nothing was too much trouble – and I really didn’t mind because I thought I was helping out. Court case? Yes, I’ll take the stuff in, yes I’ll get copies, yes I’ll write to the MP, yes I’ll make appts, yes I’ll write and type out your letters, I know how difficult it’s gonna be in court…….Meanwhile he was escaping from all this with his ex-gf! Thanks UKg, you’re great. I’m just off to fuck MOW while you see to it all – see you later! He took me for granted. I was just being me, helping out and he was treating me with contempt I didn’t deserve. I gave, he took.
I don't take any responsibility for his affair and I don't take any responsibilty for the destruction of the marriage. We had four kids and I do not think that is a "reason" for him to feel his "needs" weren't met. I saw to all his needs. As I said, I did too much and sacrificed too much for a man who had harboured feelings for his lost love. If I had known, my life would be a different story.
well a little bird told me i should check in...so i am...
i confess i do not have the time and patience to read up on all but have skimmed a few and yes i need to throw in my 2 cents for whatever it may be worth..
first and foremost...tryn i think your posts have come across as though you are blaming yourself partly for your wife having an affair and you seem to be projecting that onto a few others....now while i am not a man i think the basics are still the same for all of us bs's....no matter what the state of the marriage, when a ws chooses and decides to step out of the marriage that is 100% on the ws...the fault belongs with the ws and no one else.....there is no reason or excuse for it.....there is no justification for it....having an affair, especially a lta IS A CHOICE AND DECISION made by someone who has issues within themselves and if they don't fix those issues they will do it again
getting a marriage back on track after this sort of betrayal takes 2 parts..
part 1......the ws must step up and do whatever it takes for the bs to feel SAFE again, or even remotely safe enough to work on the marriage
and until part 1 is complete there is no part 2 which is reconcilliation....
reconcilliation is 100%..100% for both parties......so in part 2 both parties must do what takes to produce a marriage in which both parties feel safe, loved and ultimately happy
and i cannot stress this enough...until part 1 is complete, there will never be part 2 or true reconcilliation because the bs will never feel safe and when you live in fear you live without true happiness and a sense of peace...
now a few points..
those phone records...well your ws should be willing to do whatever you feel she needs to do.....please remember that while the other bs is not your responsiblity, she is "one of us".....do for others what you would want done for you and maybe she needs that final proof to be able to "see"...
next point.....there was one poster in part 30 that called his wife promiscuous....or something like that and tryn i think you might have forgotten what it is when you are brand spankin new...and his d-day was less then 3 months ago....not 3 years ago but 3 months ago......it was about a year before i could honestly say i had any kind of control....and you know what...to damn bad on the ws....she made her bed...if SHE WANTS HER MARRIAGE she will have to swallow some shit.....he has a right to be angry...and while i agree that there is no productivity to it, its still very understandable and expected and she needs to stiffen up a bit and take it...sorry but i dont think the bs should be walkin on eggs....the ws needs to be walkin on the eggs....and the bs needs to be able to vent and let it out, and he or she need to hear it if they are ever to truely have a remote grasp on what we feel.....do we want to have all these feelings and anger....hell no...but the only way to get to the other side of it is to go through it.....the bs needs to know that the ws truely "gets it"...without that the fear will always be there that this will happen again...basically not feeling safe within the relationship
part 1 must come first.....and all newbies are in part 1...its solely the ws's responsibility to to get the marriage to part 2...
part 1 is 100% on the ws to step and do ALL the work......prove to the bs that they are WILLING to do what it takes..
the bs need only make a list of what needs they now have, like honesty, transparency, password..whatever the bs needs...every bs has different needs to find that safe place and its up to the ws to meet them....
((laura)) i am so sorry you don't feel safe here, this was my "home away from home" for so long, this was my soft place to fall, i never felt judged, and this place truely became my saving grace......especially here on lta.......
and hello...does no one decorate the new house anymore.....from what i have skimmed some of the humor and sillier side of the "tribe" seems to be gone....and that was also a saving grace for me.....i needed that laugh that release from all the pain....there is nothing fun about this process but as hurt individuals i believe a bit of humor lightens what is so damned heavy and dark making the day or the hour or even the minute a bit better...
i had my days where i took it by the minute because almost every minute felt like agony...and it all comes back so damned fast even now more then 4 years later.....i sometimes wonder how i got through it....even though i am still in the process of getting on with my life, still living with my choices and most importantly still working towards the new goals i had to set for myself.......
so i may not be first here on house 31....to post...but i will be first to start the decorations.....laura i want to be on that beach where you had so lovingly put all of us with our dreams....so let this be a house on "dreams"...
ok, so i think i gave a bit more then my 2 cents.....