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User Topic: Long Term Affairs - Part 31
SisterMilkshake
♀ Member
Member # 30024
Default  Posted: 7:46 AM, March 12th (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

RSEB, my quick take on why your BH may not say "I love you" like he used to is because it was so casually discarded.
Little things end up having big meanings sometimes after an A.
I agree with all of ats points.


BW (me) 50ish FWH 50ish
Married 34 years, 3 children
d-day 3/10 LTA (4 yrs./fucking & flirting)

"Oh, why do my actions have consequences?" ~ Homer Simpson
"She knew my one weakness: That I'm weak!" ~ Homer Simpson


Posts: 8982 | Registered: Nov 2010 | From: The Great White North USA
ReunitePangea
♂ Member
Member # 37529
Default  Posted: 7:53 AM, March 12th (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I have a question for the BS's. Do you do things or not do things for or to your FWS in a way to "hurt" them, to continue to "make" them realize what they have done to you and your M? My full story is in my profile for those of you who don't know it.

I am much more recent with my DDay so maybe it makes a difference. I have tried to not do things to my WW to hurt her to make her feel more guilty that I know she already does. However I will admit that at times it is the things that I do not do that I am probably still guilty of. The things that her OM did for her that I am sure that she finds lacking in me, I find very difficult to fulfill for her. I think it is because I don't think she deserves them, at least not yet.

The stuff that I do not do very likely revolves around what atsenaotie told me and it has to do with languages of love. I need to read the book he mentioned still but some of what I likely would get out of it I think I might already know a little. My WW has never been shy about saying what she wants and some of the stuff I just don't do. Did her OMs fulfill some of those things, probably. Thats why right not I find it difficult to find the desire to do those things until I am at the point that I can forgive I feel. I know 2 wrongs don't make a right, but in my mind I deserved a loving faithful wife and until I can get past what in my head I think I lost, I don't feel like I can give her anymore of me yet.

Back to your question - I do think I do not do things in a sense to "hurt" her, however I hope to someday get past that - time is key it seems for me and I just need more of it at the moment.

Some advise as to how to best get those things from your BH - if it were me I would rather you tell how much you enjoy it when I tell you "I love you" in the morning rather than asking me why I did not say it. It very well could be like in my case he is holding back - I think I am but it is more subtle and not as overt intential. By telling him how much you enjoy that reassurance - when he is ready for it, he likely will do it.


BS - Me 38
WS - Wife 39
D-Day - Oct 12
Married 10 years
OM1 - 12-year LTA
OM2 - 9 month A turned into open relationship with couple for another 1 1/2 years

Posts: 406 | Registered: Nov 2012
ReunitePangea
♂ Member
Member # 37529
Default  Posted: 8:15 AM, March 12th (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

No, it wasn’t the secret life they wanted

In my case I think part of what drove my WW to have a LTA was the secret life. My WW's LTA started day 1 we dated many years ago - even before she knew me that much she was having her A. Her Mom was first married to a man who just happened to also be married to another woman and had another family. My WW won't admit it yet, she provides other reasons for her LTA, but I still think deep down she had a desire for a secret life all along. I also think gender roles that you have also discussed are a key component in my WW decision for a LTA as well.


BS - Me 38
WS - Wife 39
D-Day - Oct 12
Married 10 years
OM1 - 12-year LTA
OM2 - 9 month A turned into open relationship with couple for another 1 1/2 years

Posts: 406 | Registered: Nov 2012
trynhard
♂ Member
Member # 22698
Default  Posted: 8:20 AM, March 12th (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Do you do things or not do things for or to your FWS in a way to "hurt" them, to continue to "make" them realize what they have done to you and your M?

I have yes. It is punishment to the WS. We have this desire or need to punish. It is part of being human. We want revenge. We want them to hurt, know the hurt we feel. At least that was within me.. once.

And I am with ats looking at it from that perspective.

If you R, you must become aware that it is not in your best interest to continue to punish. I strongly believe today in the law of reciprocity. If you punish someone continually, you will be punished in return. It is pure misery.

IMO, This is a question about forgiving. When a BS makes the choice to forgive after infidelity, WE must behave forgiving for the good of the marriage and our own feelings.

A MUST!

I challenge any BS to tell me, what is good about reminding someone of a failure?

And forgiving always begins with a choice to do something. It is hard and it takes time because when those trigger happen, a brain wants to explode those comments, those words, and those feelings.

Total Forgiveness by RT Kendall
What Total Forgiveness is NOT
1) Approval of what they did
2) Excusing what they did
3) Justifying what they did
4) Pardoning what they did
5) Reconciliation - meaning you can avoid the offender if you choose to
6) Denying what they did
7) Blindness to what happened
8) Forgetting
9) Refusing to take the wrong Seriously
10) Pretending we are not hurt

What Total Forgiveness is
1) Being aware of what someone has done and still forgive them
2) Choosing to keep no records of wrongs
3) Refusing to punish
4) Not telling what they did
5) Being Merciful
6) Graciousness
7) It is an inner condition
8) It is the absence of bitterness
9) Forgiving God
10) Forgiving ourselves

The following are acts of kindness or things you can do that are forgiving. First… forgiveness is a choice… It is not a feeling… It is not anything you can or cannot do unless you decide… You can make your brain do these things…

1) Make the choice to forgive
2) Make the deliberate and irrevocable choice not to tell anyone what they did.
3) Be pleasant to them should you be around them
4) If conversation ensues, say that which would set them free from guilt
5) Let them feel good about themselves
6) Protect them from their greatest fears
7) Keep it up today, tomorrow, this year and next
8) Pray for them

See each and every one of us can do all these things. It takes some brain strength and you may fail occasionally. So you start over at it again. But you get good at it in a very short time.


Once you forgive, you must accept that the rest of our lives, the BS lives, we are going to have triggers. Reminders of the hurt we face in the trauma. But as our minds during the healing process this sex over and over.. the “I got fooled” an others… over and over.. the impact does get less and less. I think every one of us can control our emotions to the point we can say to ourselves.. Hey, that was then and today is today.
If you find yourself unable to control these feelings, we must let our partners go. Because this will protect YOU. It is easy to forgive someone when eliminate them from our lives. The trigger go away quicker because it seems to me we are no longer emotionally connected. New people might fill that emotion to the point it just does not matter.
To continue a relationship when you don’t forgive will bring YOU misery. And the same goes for a WS. If a WS is being treated unforgivably time and time again, the WS must let the BS go.
My W’s IC kept telling my W, you must see Dave getting better. If he is not improving on his pain, if he is treating you with bad behavior, you must let him go. That IC was right. Despite my wife’s great pain she caused me, she does not deserve to be mistreated. Our lives are far to short to be in misery. Misery bring death.

[This message edited by trynhard at 8:21 AM, March 12th (Tuesday)]


Posts: 2636 | Registered: Feb 2009 | From: Indiana
7yrsflushed
♂ Member
Member # 32258
Default  Posted: 8:32 AM, March 12th (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I have a question for the BS's. Do you do things or not do things for or to your FWS in a way to "hurt" them, to continue to "make" them realize what they have done to you and your M? My full story is in my profile for those of you who don't know it.
I agree with ATS on all his points especially about looking at the positive.

I also agree with SMS on why your BH doesn't say I love you anymore.

As for the initial question, I used to have moments like that all the time where an opportunity presented itself where I could have really dug the knife in but I didn't. Looking back on it now all those times I had those thoughts and didn't say anything was when I was rugsweeping and walking on egg shells. Instead of talking to my W about how I felt at the time I bottled it up and it would come out every few weeks in some long drawn out discussion or argument.

I stopped thinking about intentionally hurting her feelings or even caring when I just got tired of it all and let it all go.

Back to you though RSEB, this is still all about actions not words. Even as a broken BS my words may not have been loving or even there at all but my actions still screamed I loved my wife. (at the time I was in R by myself) If your BH is actually making some changes and you see him coming around then focus on the actions. The words will come eventually just remember it's the actions not the words.


D-day 5/24/11
BH = Me
STBXWW = Her
2 children
The first true sense of calm I felt in YEARS was when I filed for D...
Separated 6/2013, D official around 6/2014

Posts: 1573 | Registered: May 2011
RSEB
♀ Member
Member # 34728
Default  Posted: 8:40 AM, March 12th (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Hello everyone, thank you for your words. I am at work now so I have to make this quick. The one things Flushed said:

If your BH is actually making some changes and you see him coming around then focus on the actions. The words will come eventually just remember it's the actions not the words.

My BH goes through the motions. He tells me at least once a month when I "annoy him" by trying to talk about his feelings, when he starts to distance and gets cold that the M is ruined, that it will NEVER come back. He has compared the love he believed in with me to believeing in God. Meaning if someone has a faith in God and it is proven that he does not exist, you can't just go on and find a different God. Once it is gone, it is gone. He says he believed in love once and it will never come back. He says sometimes that he thinks he died and he is in hell becuase that is what he feels he is stuck in until he stops breathing, and he wishes that to be soon. These are the words that came from him about 2 weeks ago. I feel like I am climbing a mountain I can never reach the top of. He keeps pushing me back down the cliff. Sorry, having a bad day. Sitting here at my desk crying now.


ME - FWS


Posts: 259 | Registered: Feb 2012
RSEB
♀ Member
Member # 34728
Default  Posted: 8:48 AM, March 12th (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

And again, he texted me "whats up"...when we just had a discussion last week when I told him HOW MUCH I LIKED it when he texts by adding a "babe" or "honey" in. That was Friday, he didn't go to work yesterday and now he's doing it again. It feels like if I ask for something, he INTENTIONALLY doesn't do it. Just like how he knows I hate when he curses or does name calling during arguements, and when he gets really angry, it feels like he INTENTIONALLY does that so that he will upset me. He tries to make a point. I try to share with him and if feels like he uses it against me. Again maybe I'm way off base, sorry for the triggers today.


ME - FWS


Posts: 259 | Registered: Feb 2012
7yrsflushed
♂ Member
Member # 32258
Default  Posted: 9:19 AM, March 12th (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Sorry you are feeling down today RSEB. Try to do something fun for yourself today.

RSEB if IIRC, you and your BH are both madhatters by default? He had an A before you got married right? Not having experience with MH's I am just throwing this out there but I think it's entirely possible that your BH's issues stem from him never actually addressing his A before you got married. I think he basically blames himself for your A and has taken responsibility for it in his mind for so long that he doesn't know how to stop punishing himself. He has been doing it for so long that he is punishing everyone around him as well.

If he is a Madhatter then he has to address his issues with his A as well. Getting married didn't wipe the slate clean and your A didn't "even" things up either. He doesn't get to beat up on you forever when he did the same thing.

Others are free to chime in but RSEB have you ever worn the BH hat in your relationship? By that I mean if he rugswept his entire A then there is a big part of the equation that missing. He doesn't get to bash you forever while never actually acknowledging or addressing his own A related issues.

If I am way off feel free to ignore my post. I also am not trying to trigger or upset anyone. If RSEB's BH had an A then couldn't part of his issue be he never did the work to address that?

ETA: If I am confusing your story with another member I apologize profusely.

[This message edited by 7yrsflushed at 9:21 AM, March 12th (Tuesday)]


D-day 5/24/11
BH = Me
STBXWW = Her
2 children
The first true sense of calm I felt in YEARS was when I filed for D...
Separated 6/2013, D official around 6/2014

Posts: 1573 | Registered: May 2011
RSEB
♀ Member
Member # 34728
Default  Posted: 9:50 AM, March 12th (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Flushed

If he is a Madhatter then he has to address his issues with his A as well. Getting married didn't wipe the slate clean and your A didn't "even" things up either. He doesn't get to beat up on you forever when he did the same thing.

My BH will not and never did address his A. At the time he said get over it or leave. I stayed obviously. I am not here to ambush or attack his A here. He sees the A as before M and that I had the choice to leave. He says we weren't M'd at the time, that it is different, that we hadn't taken vows etc etc etc.

That is his take. Sorry for the abrupt quick posts..still at work


ME - FWS


Posts: 259 | Registered: Feb 2012
atsenaotie
♂ Member
Member # 27650
Default  Posted: 10:56 AM, March 12th (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

RESB,

...that the M is ruined, that it will NEVER come back.

Then why is he still with you and still M'd? I would ask that question. Not in an accusing manner, but out of genuine wonderment. Why does he stay? What is in it for him? What benefit(s) does the M provide to him?

I did not bother to quote the rest of the melodramatic bits about being in Hell and wishing he would die. The questions you should seek answers to are why would you stay in a M to a spouse who considers the M Hell and sees no hope for a better future, who looks forward to death as his escape from the M?

It takes two to R. First, both spouses have to fix their brokenness and personal issues. Then you both work together to re-fit the broken parts into a workable whole. I see many couples on SI in R where the definition of R appears to be they are no longer fucking other people, and they say they will not do it again. That is not R in my opinion, that is return to a dysfunctional M. Dysfunctional because at least one of the spouses still lacks skills beyond having an A to cope with needs and stress in the M AND mutual communication has not improved to provide for an authentic exchange of feelings and needs.

From your profile,

... but I know he doesn't look at me the way he used to, that is the ONE thing I long for most in all of this.

Are you willing to be in the M if you never get that? Can you be happy in the M if you never again get that? Is that ONE thing your oxygen, without which all of the other things you have are worthless?

I no longer look or feel the way I once did towards FWW. I suspect that I never will, and that much of that is healthy. FWW no longer looks to my approval of her as what defines and makes her happy. She looks inward now for her selfworth and happiness. What I offer is gravy.

warning, 2x4

RESB, I think you are still looking too much for your H to validate you, to benchmark your value. I see this as wayward thinking. By your own post you had a wonderful night, but are upset because he did not say three words. The actions were all there, but he did not say the script and so you question if he likes you. You post that a man who calls his M Hell and waits for his death held you in his arms, smelled your hair, comforted you, made love (as opposed to had sex?), said goodbye with a kiss, and you feel unloved.

From your profile again.

He tells me he still loves me, is still IN love with me, there is no other woman he wants, ...

From today's post.

He says he believed in love once and it will never come back. He says sometimes that he thinks he died and he is in hell becuase that is what he feels he is stuck in until he stops breathing, and he wishes that to be soon.

As Johnny Mercer, and many others, said:

You've got to accentuate the positive
Eliminate the negative
And latch on to the affirmative
Don't mess with Mister In-Between

You've got to spread joy up to the maximum
Bring gloom down to the minimum
Have faith or pandemonium's
Liable to walk upon the scene

Actions speak louder than words.


LTA BS 53
FWW 60
M 1990, dday 10-5-09
Reconciled

Posts: 3967 | Registered: Feb 2010 | From: FL
trynhard
♂ Member
Member # 22698
Default  Posted: 11:22 AM, March 12th (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

My BH will not and never did address his A. At the time he said get over it or leave. I stayed obviously. I am not here to ambush or attack his A here. He sees the A as before M and that I had the choice to leave. He says we weren't M'd at the time, that it is different, that we hadn't taken vows etc etc etc.

IMO, he is right. There is a difference. When we date, we should pay close attention to what our potential spouse does. He must have made amends? You should have forgiven him for what he did. After he made the promise there is a difference despite what you feel today because of what you did. I am sure you did not betray him for this reason. Although I will say it seems a WS spouse might get to a point they give themselve permission to fill the hole missing. Do you know what I mean by that? Giving yourself permission?

You guys know how on SI you read poster saying their WS will bring up they felt they were being cheated on? They flip it saying you cheated! My W always felt like when I was traveling, I, me, was having a life and she was not. She would call me sometimes at night and I didn’t pick up. I would wait until the next day to call her back. Once she tried to reach me at my hotel and the clerk told her I was not registered. That night, they were fully booked and gave away my room and I roomed with a snoring male co-worker. I thought nothing of it. She felt super unsafe and her inner thoughts and feeling helped give herself “permission” made it easier to feel like.. Dave is doing it, so why can't I. It funny how you can look at things from the past and relate.

He tells me at least once a month when I "annoy him" by trying to talk about his feelings..

Men don’t talk about feelings. This is man thing. It is part of being a man. Remember when I posted that when a woman does not have girlfriends or a man won’t allow his wife girlfriend time? If not, this becomes a husband issue. Welcome to this issue. That was what I was trying to say. RSEB.. you should marry a woman if you want to discuss feelings. So my suggestion is you take that talk to your girlfriends. Leave it to him to initiate that stuff. This is not attractive to a man believe me or not.

You have men who will be feminized by a woman. But my sex therapist says women want this and as a man you are doing yourself a dis-service by not giving some of this to them. Then, I heard on Dr. Laura last week say exactly the same thing. Her postion was for the woman to stop making her man do this. Can you imagine if my W does what Dr. Laura says and I do what my sex theropist suggest? Balance perhaps.

For Sister.. I just puke this stuff out I read, listen or hear from others.. lol..


Posts: 2636 | Registered: Feb 2009 | From: Indiana
atsenaotie
♂ Member
Member # 27650
Default  Posted: 11:51 AM, March 12th (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I am going to disagree a little here. FWW found OM who were chatty and happy talking to her about feelings and such. It did not end well.

Men don’t talk about feelings. This is man thing. It is part of being a man.

So is doing an air-snot, but there is room for... development.

I like to think that being able to better identify and communicate my feelings is less about feminization and more about a more rounded individual development. "Men" may not talk about their feelings, but then "men" have no excuse if they are unhappy in a relationship and their partner does not know how to please them.

I do agree that talking about feelings, and talking in general, does not come as easily to me as it appears to come to FWW and many other women. I have read about and experienced the men’s “retreat to cave” when discussions became too emotional for me to keep control. To interact with women as both a family member and as a professional, it has benefitted me immensely to become more skilled at understanding and communicating feelings.

Talking about feelings may explain why men are bad at it, but it is not an excuse for working on it. In the same way “oh, I’m a woman” may explain FWW (and others) talking for 5 minutes of background before getting to the important point I need to act upon. But if she wants my attention and assistance, it behooves her to learn to say: I need you to do X, and here is why.

ETA:
Dip, how do you FEEL about this topic?

[This message edited by atsenaotie at 11:52 AM, March 12th (Tuesday)]


LTA BS 53
FWW 60
M 1990, dday 10-5-09
Reconciled

Posts: 3967 | Registered: Feb 2010 | From: FL
trynhard
♂ Member
Member # 22698
Default  Posted: 12:05 PM, March 12th (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

ATS..
Then why is he still with you and still M'd? I would ask that question. Not in an accusing manner, but out of genuine wonderment. Why does he stay? What is in it for him? What benefit(s) does the M provide to him?

I know why I did it. It was the pain talking. A way for me to get even. Mass confusion. I wanted my family, I did not want to share time with my kids, future grandkids, split assets.. I was afraid of finding a better woman.. The problem her man has is that… We never get even. Until we accept that, we are going to try and get even.
I got to a point were my pain stopped talking. My fears dissipated.

R.. can you understand? Your H needs to work on himself a bit. He must want this on his own. You cannot force it on him. Laura made a post that was so critical for us BS.. I don’t need my W for my own happiness. She can enhance my life greatly, but I don’t need her. ATS hits it too… I want my wife to affirm me. She does it because I give it to her most often these days. I don’t expect it. I just give it.

This is why I started you thinking about being quality yourself. YOU focus on you. You build your hurt man back up in every way you can. He will come around if you affirm the hell out of him. You need to strongly focus on not getting rattled, not allowing your emotions interfere…The natural human law of reciprocity will be come back to you. Plus, I think you are leading him in the right ways. You are inviting him to work on himself a bit. Always invite, never nag.

If he does not want to be a quality man.. guess what? You are not going to reward him with sex. Show me a woman who “agrees”…. I can’t resist it damn it.. SUBMITS (sorry Nell and Brook) to a man her sex while her man is not approve her.. That is a man’s job.. either he is going to do it or you should find happiness elsewhere!!!
Along the way, he is going to behave bad, you bring conflict.. in a healthy way… with that RESET to make him feel safe. The not saying “babe” & ”honey” I don’t consider as bad behavior. The “what’s up” is your man. That is what men do and say.

Behaving badly…When he criticizes you that is different. People do things differently and some way are better than others. His way may be the way he thinks is best but you may not. A quality person lets people be themselves.. If he says, this doesn’t have enough much salt. Well, maybe for him it doesn’t, but you cooked it and this is how you do it. Tell him, I cook it my way and you cook it your way. I don’t tell you how much salt you need so you don’t tell me how much salt I need. If I tell you that you look horrible in green, how does that make you feel? So, can I serve you a bowl so we can enjoy evening together? and I will bring the salt with it.

Behaving badly is not approving you. It can start simple.. “Honey, I need to be built up.” No argument, no debate.. go about your day. Then let him try to do it.

[This message edited by trynhard at 12:06 PM, March 12th (Tuesday)]


Posts: 2636 | Registered: Feb 2009 | From: Indiana
trynhard
♂ Member
Member # 22698
Default  Posted: 12:20 PM, March 12th (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

ats.. You must remember where you are now at today. You are a far more advanced man today. You are far more keenly aware of the needs of a woman. Your OM might have been far more advanced at the time than you. It ended bac because your W made no vow to that man. He did not have kids with that man and other reasons I'm sure.

I know my OM was much better at it than me.. Perhaps it was because of the trauma in his life. OM’s son was born severely ill, never to speak, never to walk, on ventilator.. Expected to die in his 20’s.. never to have any chance at life. He knew pain I never had and when you do feel this kind of pain.. You can get in touch with your feelings. You’ve heard me call this man a snake charmer.. that what this is about.. his ability to harness feeling so a woman then feel good enough for her to agree to sex. It becomes a closeness, intimacy.. R call it.. Attention I suppose.. her battle she continues with today.

Men just don't talk about feelings. We do talk about sex. You know exactly what I mean.

Men are bad at discussing feelings.. It is not our make up. We have them, we just are taught not to express them. We send flowers. The most effective man has it within him to express feelings in the right way. It does not come naturally.

[This message edited by trynhard at 12:35 PM, March 12th (Tuesday)]


Posts: 2636 | Registered: Feb 2009 | From: Indiana
Allgoodnamesgone
♀ Member
Member # 26157
Default  Posted: 12:26 PM, March 12th (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

RSEB: I am currently separated, but attempted to reconcile with my H for 1 1/2 years before giving up.
I just wanted to respond to your comment about your H's unwillingness to say "I love you".

I also had a hard time with this - I didn't want to say it and I didnt want to hear it from my H - even when we were reconciling. And, mind you, I did love my H at that time, but it just seemed to me that they were empty words to him, an easy thing to say, and hence meaningless to me. (In my case, I was aware that my H had told OW he loved her - my H said he didnt mean it when saying it to her, but he just said it back when she said it, etc. Said he never stopped loving me during the A, etc. All of that just solidified the fact that they were empty careless words to him.)

So - that's my experience. Like others have stated, you need to look at his actions & see how he otherwise treats you for comfort.


Me- BS
DDay- 8/26/09
Separated after failed R effort.

Posts: 2165 | Registered: Nov 2009
RSEB
♀ Member
Member # 34728
Default  Posted: 12:48 PM, March 12th (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Tryin,

You know I truly value all of your words and thoughts. When you wrote:

The not saying “babe” & ”honey” I don’t consider as bad behavior. The “what’s up” is your man. That is what men do and say.

First of all let me explain I do not have the "feelings" talk with him anymore. When I mention anything it is after about two or three weeks of me being "quality" and upbeat, not letting him pull me into anything negative, as you have advised. But after those weeks and he is still acting robotic, I cannot no longer say something. So I usually ask "how are you REALLY doing?"...and ask if he wants to talk about it?

Secondly, why can't he try and be a little more accomidating to what I would like? For example you say you won't accept any "laying there sex" from your wife. You like her to initiate etc, I know I am paraphrasing a bit. Now most women DO NOT initiate and quite honestly, I am not enthusiastic when it comes to sex, BUT I know my BH would like some more effort on my part, SO I TRY. I have tried to initiate at least once a week, when I truly AM NOT IN THE MOOD, but I do it becuase I know it is important to him. SO WHY CAN'T I EXPECT the same from him???

I have learned to NOT look to my BH for validation, but when he is expressive and loving and seems okay one day and then condems me for my actions and really "lets me have it" no holds bared the next day it makes me hurt. When I had a horrible night last night and I was crying would it not be human for him to be a little more gentle and affectionate and caring the following day? I bend over backwards for him and he gladly takes it all, but when I ask for a few little words of enderment, not even the I love you because all of your replies make sense in regard to that and holding the words sacred, but to just check in with me lovingly today is also too much to ask??

And in reply to ATS:

Then why is he still with you and still M'd? I would ask that question. Not in an accusing manner, but out of genuine wonderment. Why does he stay?

He says he has no place else to go. He says he made vows and that his family is important to him and mostly the same answer as Tryin gave about his reasons for staying "I know why I did it. It was the pain talking. A way for me to get even. Mass confusion. I wanted my family, I did not want to share time with my kids, future grandkids, split assets.. I was afraid of finding a better woman."

I love him very much, I know he is struggling internally, but I feel like he won't let me reach him, that I don't deserve it. Like I had my chance and I blew it. So I feel my working on R is useless. I stay and I continue to try, though it hurts. Do I "want" to stay like this? No, but I feel even more horrible for thinking about D'ing. The sick thing is, that even though I would be crushed, I know eventually I would be okay. I don't believe the same of my BH. I believe he would behave drastically and possibly do something dumb. I want him to be happy, but I can't do it for him. I know that, but it is stll hard and hurts tremendously.


ME - FWS


Posts: 259 | Registered: Feb 2012
ReunitePangea
♂ Member
Member # 37529
Default  Posted: 1:58 PM, March 12th (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

My BH will not and never did address his A. At the time he said get over it or leave. I stayed obviously. I am not here to ambush or attack his A here. He sees the A as before M and that I had the choice to leave. He says we weren't M'd at the time, that it is different, that we hadn't taken vows etc etc etc.


IMO, he is right. There is a difference. When we date, we should pay close attention to what our potential spouse does.

Tryn, I think I have to disagree a bit. Maybe when you are initially dating there is a bit of a difference but in some relationships now days there is very much a sense of commitment even before marriage. I know there was in my case when before my WW and I were married we already living together and were together for a few years. Looking at RSEB's timeline it may have been the same that they were together a long time before M. There is a trust that you build with someone when you choose to live as if you are M before you formally are and to me an A in that type of relationship is very similar to an A during marriage. Saying that you weren't married yet to me just feels like an excuse rather than an acceptable reason.

[This message edited by ReunitePangea at 1:59 PM, March 12th (Tuesday)]


BS - Me 38
WS - Wife 39
D-Day - Oct 12
Married 10 years
OM1 - 12-year LTA
OM2 - 9 month A turned into open relationship with couple for another 1 1/2 years

Posts: 406 | Registered: Nov 2012
RSEB
♀ Member
Member # 34728
Default  Posted: 2:47 PM, March 12th (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

reunitepangea,

When you wrote:

Tryn, I think I have to disagree a bit. Maybe when you are initially dating there is a bit of a difference but in some relationships now days there is very much a sense of commitment even before marriage. I know there was in my case when before my WW and I were married we already living together and were together for a few years. Looking at RSEB's timeline it may have been the same that they were together a long time before M. There is a trust that you build with someone when you choose to live as if you are M before you formally are and to me an A in that type of relationship is very similar to an A during marriage. Saying that you weren't married yet to me just feels like an excuse rather than an acceptable reason.

Just to explain our pre M relationship. We were exclusive from Nov 1991 on. In 1993 I got my own apartment, we had broken up for a bit toward summer of 1994. We were still being intimate and there was no one else I was with while we were broken up. When we officially got back together I found out by the would be future OW showing up at my apartment that he had been seeing her. Not a problem, it hurt me, but we were "broken up". A bit after that I was physically attacked by a man one night when I was out walking my dog after having come home from a night out with my girlfriends. Thank God, the attacker was scared away by oncoming traffic, I was on a main street...he got no further then getting me down to the ground and him straddling me, no clothes removed. To make a long story short, after my now BH found out he wanted us to move in together because he loved me SO much and wanted to protect me. So we got an apartment together from 1994 to 1995. I was working two jobs to keep up my half of the rent. I found that my future mother in law was taking messages from OW at her home for my BH so they could still see each other. From that year,which was a year from hell, so much fighting etc, we both moved back to our parent's homes. We worked things out, I had since gotten my own apartment again and we were exclusive and commited the entire time. In 1996 we found a house which would be in my BH's name. I found us the perfect home and I left my apartment and moved in with my BH and his Mom until the closing. I witnessed him and his Mother get into a vicious name calling argument, things I would never dream of saying to my Mother. Two seconds later his mother was asking him what he wanted for dinner. I was so frightened that I (now look at my pattern) didn't confront/talk to my BH about my fears, instead found an apartment with a girlfriend of mine and moved out without saying a word. I was afraid of his verbal attacks and temper then as well. He tried to get me to change my mind, but I said I couldn't. Long story short he had her back at "our home" after his closing the day he moved in. After all this, he admitted that he had never lost touch with her. My BH was also seeing another woman and had a ONS with yet another woman. At this point I did start seeing someone else, my BH was aware of the other guy. However one night when my BH was drunk (not the norm for him) he showed up at my apartment after I told him not to, because I told him the other guy I was seeing would be there. so they had a physical altercation. My BH and I got back together the following day and stayed together from then on. However, he was STILL seeing/in contact with the original OW up until 1997. I would find her beeping him (remember those) quite a few times, until I confronted her and told her to stop. We got engaged in 1998 and were M'd in 1999.

I do not justify my LTA due to my BH's A before our M. I have told him that I do remember the pain I felt from all his lies and betrayal. His argument is that we weren't M'd and there weren't any children. My answer to that is that we didn't know what M or kids were back then, but we were in a commited relationship or so I thought since 1994 from our 1st apartment together. I hurt and my heart was broken, he was the love of my life and he crushed me. That hurt is something I can still feel if I put myself in that mind frame to this day.


ME - FWS


Posts: 259 | Registered: Feb 2012
hopeandchange
♂ Member
Member # 33287
Default  Posted: 2:49 PM, March 12th (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I have a question for the BS's. Do you do things or not do things for or to your FWS in a way to "hurt" them, to continue to "make" them realize what they have done to you and your M?

Yes thouth not intentionally to hurt them. I am coming to believe that my presence and my professed love for my W and desire to be her H creates its own pain for her.

When the A comes up, and it still does, I do not feel the anger and feel relaxed. Not sure how she feels when it does. Very recently I told my W that I felt unease that sher trip to the store lasted so long. She replied that yes, she thought about that we she stopped to talk to a neighbor on our street. I felt empathy from her.

W is out of town this week with DD on college search trip. Last night, I told her I do not want to rusch to divorce, see a great future for us, transitional phase in our lives, etc and she should think about it. W replied we can talk when she gets home in a week.

So this morning she calls to check on things and I talk about starting a gym workout routine and ask for her support. Help with transportation, an occassional workout together.

W "I cannot commit. I don't know my schedule. I can't find my room (she was returning from a workout at the hotel), I cannot talk, it is too emotional, I need to call DD, I need to find my room). Absolute panic. Why?

h&c


BH (me, 50)
WS (her, 48)
Divorced!
3 wonderful teens
Heading for Happiness

Posts: 401 | Registered: Sep 2011
ImNellNow
♀ Member
Member # 28753
Default  Posted: 2:51 PM, March 12th (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

In the same way “oh, I’m a woman” may explain FWW (and others) talking for 5 minutes of background before getting to the important point I need to act upon. But if she wants my attention and assistance, it behooves her to learn to say: I need you to do X, and here is why.

Hey! I resemble that remark... Thank God. When tryn was describing what all women do and want, I was afraid that I am actually a man. Or maybe a kangaroo.

RSEB,
I'm curious whether you've identified what you feel about your H? There's something quite negative in all your descriptions of him and I'm not sure if that's frustration (a usually temporary feeling) or something deeper. I know you love him. But what do you think about him? I'm treading carefully here because I don't want to put words in your mouth, so I'm not sure if I'm being clear...


BS & D
Drinking wine and thinking bliss is on the other side of this.

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