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User Topic: Long Term Affairs - Part 31
SI Staff
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Default  Posted: 9:21 AM, February 28th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

New thread

Posts: 10000 | Registered: May 2002
SisterMilkshake
♀ Member
Member # 30024
Default  Posted: 10:00 AM, February 28th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I'm first!

eta: Now I need to go back and catch up with you all.

[This message edited by SisterMilkshake at 10:01 AM, February 28th (Thursday)]


BW (me) 50ish FWH 50ish
Married 34 years, 3 children
d-day 3/10 LTA (4 yrs./fucking & flirting)

"Oh, why do my actions have consequences?" ~ Homer Simpson
"She knew my one weakness: That I'm weak!" ~ Homer Simpson


Posts: 8984 | Registered: Nov 2010 | From: The Great White North USA
UKgirl
♀ Member
Member # 17062
Default  Posted: 10:45 AM, February 28th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Hey Sister!! So must I!!


D-Day: 30 July 2006 LTA: 5yrs
Me, BS, 56 y/o Him, WS, 57 y/o
MOW, pathetic ex-fiancee.
3 grown boys and one 18 y/o
I don't consider myself married anymore.
There are some words once spoken split the world in two. Before you say them and after.

Posts: 3328 | Registered: Nov 2007 | From: UK
ReunitePangea
♂ Member
Member # 37529
Default  Posted: 12:39 PM, February 28th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

MC and Tryin- I just do not agree with the idea of not helping the other BS out by giving her copies of her own husband's communication with his affair partner!

I actually side with Tryin and MC in letting this issue end. MC told the other BS, I think he needs to be careful of being further dragged in the issues of the other M and focus on his own. If both his MC and IC agree it just makes it that much more difficult to push on an issue that has less to do with your own M and more about someone elses.

What does concern me is how your WW got her way on this. I think you need to make it clear that her storming out of the house to sleep elsewhere rather than work on conflict together is not going to help the M. If you disagree on something that is fine, talk it out and come to a collective decision. Her leaving the house just to get her way is not working on the M. Her also making a bigger deal out of a smaller issue in my opinion and calling it a deal breaker is also something to be looked at. Deal breakers are reserved for much bigger issues rather than simply handing over a copy of a phone bill - things like having another A - those are the deal breakers your WW should be focused on in my opinion.


BS - Me 38
WS - Wife 39
D-Day - Oct 12
Married 10 years
OM1 - 12-year LTA
OM2 - 9 month A turned into open relationship with couple for another 1 1/2 years

Posts: 406 | Registered: Nov 2012
hopingforhappy
♀ Member
Member # 29288
Default  Posted: 12:48 PM, February 28th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Why would giving the other BS copies of phone bills be such a big deal as to rise to the level of being a "deal breaker"? The only reason I can think of is that she is protecting the OM--which to me is a much bigger issue for MC and possibly a deal breaker for him. MC, I think you should do what you need to do to get to the bottom of that issue. Those phone records have become a giant red herring. Focus on your M by determining whether your BW is all in or not.


Me--BW (56)
Him--FWH (53)--5yr. LTA--OW probably BPD
Married 19 years
DS-18, DD-14
Reconciling--but boy is it hard!

Posts: 1225 | Registered: Aug 2010
trynhard
♂ Member
Member # 22698
Default  Posted: 1:28 PM, February 28th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I'm just confused as to how they had the LTAs and now they are the ones dictating the rules for reconciliation.

Dictating? When you are in a relationship it is mutual. I know what you really mean though. NJgal, maybe I am wrong, but I it doesn’t sound like MC’s wife as a dictator in this reconciliation.


I can understand that MC’s W does not want written documents in the hands of another M. MC made me think about that. Myself, would have just sent the bills on over and let whatever happened happen. What are the consequences of that?

I suppose OM could get so pissed he wants to whip MC ass.
Maybe MC’s W would be that distraught she would have followed up with D papers.
Maybe OM’s W would fall over the edge and harm herself… or even MC’s W.
Maybe MC and his W gets legally drawn in and involved in their OM’s M.
I don’t know, may some other things.

I am pretty sure the degree at which our spouses feel must be taken into consideration.

I know there are different ways people R. I was never a dictator in our R. The only ultimatum I gave my W was that if she contacted OM, I was done. I never gave her any ultimatum she must share everything about her A. Many of my questions went unanswered and today I just don’t care. I never gave my W any ultimatum to fix herself nor ever insist she go to IC. I invited her to Retrouvaille and she went on her own. I never asked her to give me her passwords to her email nor did she ever offer them. She did show me remorse, on her own.

-real, genuine remorse from the WS
- a willingness to come clean about everything and be transparent in terms of passwords, cell phone records, credit card bills, etc.
- the WS should show a willingness to make amends to you and to anyone that they have hurt through their actions during the affair
- the WS needs to show a willingness to work on the marriage and do anything and everything that they need to help save the marriage!

I say a R is mutual in every way…
- A BS willingness to forgive
- A BS should be willing to also work on the marriage and do anything and everything they need to help save the marriage.

If our spouses want to cheat, they want to cheat. Not really anything we can do about it. All I can do is try and be the most attractive man I can be. If I cannot be attractive enough to the point where my W does not value me enough to risk losing me, then such is life. She is going to lose me. If she cannot be attractive to me after I communicate what does attract me, she is going to lose me.

We can be the most attractive person on the earth and still get cheated on. Why? Because some people are so greedy and selfish they can never be satisfied… it is always more, more and more. Some people have no idea how to communicate effectively nor have no idea how to even be in a relationship. It’s just the way many people are taught when they grow up. Perhaps brain chemistry.


I see MC going about his R in the best way possible. His W is in IC and MC. He is willing to take responsibility for his own role he played in his M. He is considering his W’s feelings by not embarrassing her more than she is already embarrassed. He is thinking about protected her fears. That is forgiving. He can compromise. I can look at MC as a very good quality man in many ways and I think he “get it” completely.

MCJack calling his WW promiscuous does not make him someone who is not a quality husband! He is reacting to his WW's LTA!
Yes he was reacting to his W. He reacted in the wrong way. At the Indy Pacer game this week, Lee pushed Herbert. Herbert’s instinct told him to shove him back and he did. Toughness huh? The consequences? Both are fined and both are suspended. Now imagine had Herbert just took that shove. Lee gets a T and Pacers get a free throw. Lee gets fined and Herbert does not. What is the best results for those who can control there emotions?

It is no different for those of us who enter trauma. We must control our emotions. We must be wise. The 180 is wise because if you really look at those bullets, they are all about controlling ourselves. After you enter this trauma, that 180 protects us.

SI forget how raw and how traumatized and shocked the BS is right after d day.

I realize that. So many JFO post bring out a natural characteristic of human behavior.. Why was I not attractive? What was it about me? We here on SI, we all try our best to build that person back up. But that person knows deep inside they did not do something they should have been doing, What is it? Well, my post might tell you what it is.

We can all say things to comfort that person. We do it by sharing our own feelings we had at the time as it relates to there feelings. We compare feelings to let them know they are not alone in what happened. So many say, “It is not your fault”. And yes, that is true. We only control our own choices. But, there are always reasons people cheat.

The key in a happy life is to examine our own behaviors. To bury our heads and think there is never a cause and effect in every relationship is doing you a disservice. If you can somehow let yourself go, look at all the responsibilities and lay them at our own feet, want to change, you can empower yourself greatly. You are going to end up is a far better position. I can assure you, most people looking for something outside the marriage is doing this because they are not getting it inside the marriage.

I will use myself as an example.

I had very poor boundaries and my lack of the proper attention. When my wife started her relationship with her OM, she started to stay late a work. Me, I worked a lot too. I was away a lot. However, I was working. So I took my own self and related it to my wife working hard. But there was a difference. I was working with other men, not woman. Even though me, myself, I would look at woman as sexy creatures, and me being a man, I can acknowledge and be attracted to them, I never allowed myself to get in situations that would give me an opportunity to break my fidelity vow, I still had these feelings.

I failed myself not understanding that my W was in a position working very closely with a normal man having those same thoughts about my W. So, my value was… everyone is like me. Even though I know I flirted on rare occasion, and even had it within myself to place my own self in an opportunity, I did flirt. The opportunity never came about because of my job, me, my situation. I never ever worked closely with other woman during all those years I was married. My W was in a far different work environment. I never really understood the dynamics of sex, attractions and relationships. I did not know the boundaries I needed to protect. My parents never taught me this.

So when my W started to stay late working, having drinks with co-workers, lunches with her boss, all the phone calls after hours, etc, Even thought I had this feeling, this gut feeling, I did not know how to follow it. At the beginning she never hid too much of what was going on. I once tried to protect my boundary.

I can remember my wife coming home late.. maybe 9 pm. I told her that I did not think that was appropriate. She shot back with this theme.. “You have a life, I don’t. You get to see all these great cities, places, meet all these neat people, I don’t. I am going to have my life too.”

What she did was to put me in my place which was you keep living your life and I am going to live my life. I did not know how to protect what I knew in my heart maybe was not the right thing to do. I failed to love myself. Love always protects. I backed off. I backed off because I was not good at conflict. I was afraid of conflict. I was so afraid of conflict that I allowed inappropriate behavior by my wife to continue.

I had the cell phone bills. I would look at them talking 15-20 minutes after her work on her ride back to the house. And me? I would be gone for 2 days and might have a 5 minute conversation at best. My gut was telling me that something was just not right but my mind also was saying it was work.

I did nothing because after a couple of tries to protect a boundary I would get a response that would put me back in my place. After all I should believe everything people tell me right?

And me, I was not kissing my wife every day. I was not giving her words to build her up. I was not just taking the time each evening to just talk about her day, us, our future, etc. I was not always there for her when she needed me in illness. I can list more things if you want.

I come here not to offend others, but to help them understand how to be a better person. Was I a bad person? No. Was I quality? Not really. Did I deserve what I got? No. Was I naive? Yes. Did I understand what it takes to be in a healthy M? No.

Now let’s look at the new me.

A quality man understand the dynamics between all men and woman and never fears protecting his boundaries.

Today, I know that woman can be attracted to ugly men, pretty men and visa versa. Attractions are not about physical beauty. I know men want sex and I know woman want attention. I know women who are not keenly aware can be snake charmed. I know when I am not fully paying attention my woman can be snake charmed. I know I will fight for my woman to behave transparent. I know a boundary I see my woman talking too much to another man, alone with my woman often, things can and do happen. Attractions happen.

I am not afraid to protect my own boundary. If my W is going to lunch with a man, staying late at work with another man, defending her work as if it is work, nothing else, tough. This is about me. Either you are going to respect me, or you are not going to be in my world. Another man can accept his woman doing all that, not me.

Imagine had I then started communicating to my wife in a far more effective way rather than having no spine to protect myself.

W, “You have a life, I don’t blah blah blah”
Me, “Honey, I know what men want. You can stay late and have your life, whatever that is but what you are doing is not appropriate.”
Me, “I don’t feel good about you socializing with those people”
Me, “I feel like you are too close to your boss, you had better wake up and know I am not going to sit around while you develop a close personal relationship with a man like him.”

My wife once told me her boss was in an affair when she started work at her firm. .

Me, “You are in dangerous waters and you had better think real hard about spending so much time developing a special relationship.”
Me, “I don’t feel safe right now, I am not going to be in any M where I don’t feel safe. So you had better be behaving like someone transparent..”

My W would have then reacted to me. Which way? Maybe lied to me about being with her GF. Maybe not.

Me, “Ok then you invite me every time to come with you”
Me, “Who are these women? Why am I never invited?”

See, in my LTA situation, I allowed my wife to get off way too easy. I allowed my W to have cocktails way too easy in places she had no business being while in a M relationship. I allowed my W to live a married but singles life many ways.

Me, “Honey, you can go to dinner with your boss all you want, but I don’t think I don’t know what he is thinking.”

Some people will say I was Jealous. OK, I am good with that, so what. I protect my own safe feelings. I would not be jealous if my W acting transparent. She does not have to go to dinner with her boss. I once gave my Ok for just her and her boss to a Pacer game. Was I nuts? Yes. “Honey, YOU don’t behave in a way to even make me jealous.” If I treated my wife a far different way early on in our M, my wife I am pretty sure she would have given more thought to the emotional connection before she got too deep. My pressure would have been far more effective to the point she would give her own behaviors additional thoughts. It would have been easier for her to protect what little boundary she had for herself. I failed because I owed my W the pressure she deserved.

W, “you have dinner with your woman customers”
Me, “I don’t and I expect the same from you.”
W, “You just don’t tell me”
Me, “you believe what you want, I don’t”
My compromise.. to be more open with my W. I call her and let her know every time the people I will be entertaining. I call her again when I get to my hotel. She can know exactly my hotel when she wants. I am completely open.
Me, “You make me feel safe honey, that is your responsibility”

And the lies.. We cannot control the lies others tell us. It happens. I some people are so devious they can trick us. But did I really marry that kind of person? Did I really pick that kind of person? Not really. Once you go down the path of secrecy, I saw it over and over again, the lie creates more gut feelings… and I ignored my own inner feelings. Had I paid close attention to my own feelings, those that carry over into sex, how I was being treated, the attention to me, more and more signs of disconnect as time went on and protected each and every boundary, NO I would not have ended up being a victim of a LTA. The realness would have come to light. If I would have addressed all those feeling with pressure, conflict too, our M issues would have been exposed.

A quality man fill every need of his woman.

And imagine at the time the real needs missing in my wife was attention.. I was living my full life with all the attention I desired. Was I not listening? If I been filling the attention she needed while this all affair stuff started, I know my W would not have made her choice. I know with the combination.. me filling all her needs and me placing a whole bunch of pressure on bad behaviors and protecting my boundaries with vigor and determination, she would not have cheated. The way I treated my wife closed her off, it was not safe for her to be open. Not safe for her to tell me what she was missing. I never made it easy for her.

I know this about me. When I accomplish something, it gives me great inner strength. And it was about me. It was a great discovery to the secret of the best possible M. I accept personal responsibility for my choices and actions. I lay blame at my own feet where it belongs. I look at only me and I let my W look at her. What could I have done differently? How can I be different today? To share my own discovery is wrong?

[This message edited by trynhard at 1:33 PM, February 28th (Thursday)]


Posts: 2636 | Registered: Feb 2009 | From: Indiana
atsenaotie
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Member # 27650
Default  Posted: 2:06 PM, February 28th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I am pretty sure the degree at which our spouses feel must be taken into consideration.

I hesitate to respond here because I am worried that if Tryn keeps up with these big posts he is going to get carpal tunnel syndrome.

Considering FWW's feelings and needs was a problem I had to resolve, but it took work on me and her to get there.
First I had to come out of the shock and numbness. Then the TT had to stop so my rage could diminish, the next step was learning to be authentic in what I felt and what I communicated to FWW. After a M of trying to figure out what I should do to make FWW happy, and failing miserably at that, I had to practice at understanding what I wanted and how I authentically felt about an issue. During this period of practice, there was some over-correcting swinging of the pendulum. I had to detach from worrying about what FWW wanted or her feelings would be in order to ensure I was being authentic. I also felt it was important to give FWW the opportunity to experience the real me, not a me trying to accommodate her at the expense of my authentic feelings.

After I got to acceptance about her A, grounded in my new perspective about me and the M, then is when I was able to accommodate her needs and know what I was doing and why.

… the degree at which our spouses feel…

To this day, I will not be responsible for divining her feelings. I will offer her a drink if she looks hot. I will listen when she wants to talk, I will offer a shoulder when she appears upset, but FWW has to tell me if she has a need or want. Once she expresses a need or want, then I will consider it.

For instance, FWW does not like that I read and post on SI. She does not like that some people I have met on SI are also on my Facebook or LinkedIn. Participating on SI, albeit to a continually reducing degree is important to me, so I do it. I do not hide it, nor do I make a big deal of it in front of her.

I tried to go back to 2010 to find the firsts posts Tryn gave to me to help me to move on, but apparently, SImplicity does not include ICR in the old post recall. While looking for the old posts, I went through my old Journal entries and found one from a little over 6 months past dday. FWW had read my posts on SI and wrote this to me:

I knew it would not take very long to go back to this, at least during the highs, it is pleasant. Whether you and your SI buddies think this or not, I am a person of worth, I have and deserve to have feelings, I need forgiveness and to forgive, and with or without your approval or feelings towards me, I am valuable and valued by others, I have chosen bad things but I am not a horrible bad person, nor will I ever say that I am again. I have self worth and you will not take that from me. You are either with me or against me, you can’t have both anymore. You either want me or you don’t. I want you. When you are ready to want me and ready to work through everything that has contributed to making the massive wreck that is our marriage, let me know.

At this point she was still TT-ing me, I would not get disclosure for another 2 weeks. She was not sure she wanted to be M’d to me, that would not come for another 5 months. If I considered her feelings at this point, we would have not been authentic. She would not have been working on her issues, and I would have been accommodating her misperceptions.

[This message edited by atsenaotie at 2:08 PM, February 28th (Thursday)]


LTA BS 53
FWW 60
M 1990, dday 10-5-09
Reconciled

Posts: 3967 | Registered: Feb 2010 | From: FL
ImNellNow
♀ Member
Member # 28753
Default  Posted: 2:11 PM, February 28th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

tryn,

Oh, honey! You are not responsible for your W's A! What you were or were not doing, were or were not saying... those are not reasons that she cheated. She is the reason she cheated. Now, when you champion being a quality man or woman, I'm all for it. I'll stand up and cheer! But the highest quality man married to a cheating woman is going to get cheated on. I fear you're giving "live a quality life and be a quality person" power it cannot have: the power to control others.

Be a quality man. Be a quality woman. Stand up for yourself. Do the best you can for you and be proud of yourself. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.

But be careful not to imply that quality men will not get cuckolded by cheating women, or vice versa. It has happened to the best of us.

Nell

ETA:
A quality man fill every need of his woman.
^^^ Impossible for any human to achieve and unhealthy to attempt. A quality woman knows that a man cannot meet all her needs!

[This message edited by ImNellNow at 2:15 PM, February 28th (Thursday)]


BS & D
Drinking wine and thinking bliss is on the other side of this.

Posts: 2370 | Registered: Jun 2010 | From: Baby steps on my new path
trynhard
♂ Member
Member # 22698
Default  Posted: 2:24 PM, February 28th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Nell.. You get what I am saying.

I was responsible for my own behaviors. My W was responsible for her A.

Oh I could lay all the blame on her believe me. But to think I had no role.. Not true.

You got wise right? You changed right? After all the pressure you placed on your H, he still never came around seeing the beauty in those lovely PJ.. he wanted a thong. He’s an idiot.

My wife is no idiot. She wanted to R. But my R would have never been successful had I not changed. You get that huh?

I would say a man needs are far easier fill than those of a woman OK.. I get it.. how about this?

You have to participate relentlessly in the manifestations of your own blessing! To the best of your own ablity.

Once you find happiness.. you must never be lax in maintaining it.

[This message edited by trynhard at 2:29 PM, February 28th (Thursday)]


Posts: 2636 | Registered: Feb 2009 | From: Indiana
trynhard
♂ Member
Member # 22698
Default  Posted: 2:37 PM, February 28th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

ats.. lol..

Oh but MC wife did share her feelings when she did not want him to send the phone records...

One thing I am still for.. If your spouse does not change and be quality, you must have the courage to let them go. It becomes there choice, not yours. You just file the papers.


Posts: 2636 | Registered: Feb 2009 | From: Indiana
MC_Jack
♂ Member
Member # 35016
Default  Posted: 3:11 PM, February 28th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Hello all,

Thanks to everyone for expanding the discussion on some of the things I have been dealing with.

My WW's reaction to the promiscuity comment and her emotional reaction to the bills issue are connected, I believe.

It is more complciated than I can really explain here. The promiscuity slam was not in relation to the A, but in relation to her first year of residency, when she was the intern chosen out the class to be hazed, bullied, and beaten down. It was an annual tradition at that program. Also it was when she met OM. It was a low blow by me to say that as it opened the can of worms of that most traumatic and horrific time of her life.

I think she does not want me to send the bills as she is afraid (even if it is just paranoid) that once the other parties have this information is will then become currency amongst the group of people that were in that program. Plus her shame too.

I did not beat myself up over the comment. I just made a simple and sincere apology. It was just my hurt talking, from issues of years ago.

I did a lot of things in my M where I did not take consideration of my wife's feelings. She has been transparent to me, first priority or R. I need to consider her, first priority for M. The other BS, while I want to help, can not be the top priority and I need to have some buy in from WW since we are in R and building M. So I am still working on it.

[This message edited by MC_Jack at 3:23 PM, February 28th (Thursday)]


I am not a marriage counselor. I chose "MC Jack" in the spirit of a handle like "MC Hammer" or Young MC"...there is a lot of 'rapping' here, no? At the time I did not know what MC stood for on this site. Duh.

Posts: 792 | Registered: Mar 2012 | From: West Coast of Hopa-hopa-land
hopeandchange
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Member # 33287
Default  Posted: 9:38 PM, February 28th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I think she does not want me to send the bills as she is afraid (even if it is just paranoid) that once the other parties have this information is will then become currency amongst the group of people that were in that program. Plus her shame too.

MC_Jack
Maybe. You know your W, her history. Maybe.

A WS betrayed their BS; hurt their BS. And almost always they understand and even acknowledge that fact. Im my case, my W did (does) not accept that she also harmed the BS of her AP.

On DDay2 and shortly afterwards, I stated my intention to notify her AP BS. W argued against. AP's issue. AP had a rough upbring (danger!), AP's issue - his betryal, it would come back against her (danger?).

And our MC (each of our IC as well) advised against it. MC had know of trouble caused in other'similar situration. And my State is a right to carry state (danger!).

My tendency is to protect my W and I did not tell her AP BS. The reasons given are mostly crap but we live in a strange world.
- childhood friend murders mistress who had become pregnant
- mistress tries to kill W of her AP partner
Both were recent and close to home at the time of DDay 2 so anything can happen.

Yet, I believe that WS just don't care about the destruction they have caused and that really is another tragedy.

h&c


BH (me, 50)
WS (her, 48)
Divorced!
3 wonderful teens
Heading for Happiness

Posts: 401 | Registered: Sep 2011
What2Thnk
Member
Member # 37863
Default  Posted: 12:29 AM, March 1st (Friday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I also agree that providing the phone bills to the OMBW doesn't seem wise. She's been told about the A, she is now aware, and presumably capable of gathering her own proof. Why would it be up to MC to do that work for her? I guess I'd bee suspicious of the OMBW's reasons for wanting those bills...


Me (BS) 42
Him (WS) 43
DD #1 7/19/10 2 year LTA EA/PA w/MOW - HSXGF#1
DD #2 6/6/12 4 mo EA (PA?) w/HSXGF#2
DD #3 12/15/12 3 week EA with random stranger
A whole crapload of gaslighting, minimizing, blameshifting, rugsweeping and TT.

Posts: 183 | Registered: Dec 2012
Laura28
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Member # 28997
Default  Posted: 4:50 AM, March 1st (Friday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Tribe

The BS is responsible for the WS cheating because they didn't do what was needed to make the WS happy in the M and to discourage the WS from cheating.

A WS needs to be retrained to be a good spouse.

It is up to the BS to fix the problems in the M. To be a quality spouse....so everything will be fine again.

"I guess I'd bee suspicious of the OMBW's reasons for wanting those bills..."

OMG!

This place is not safe for me any more. It upsets me too much.

My FWH needs to be honest, transparent, loving, and loyal. That's all I ask. That's what I always gave him and that's all I have ever asked for. I have no intention of taking responsibility for his LTAs. I am not going to train him like a child or a dog to respond appropriately in a given situation, or to be the leader in our M. I am not going to teach him how to con me by saying and doing the "right" things so I will think everything is just fine. I tried hard to make our M work for 28 years in spite of him being an arsehole. It is his job to change. Not mine. I was not a perfect wife but the best I could be and he cheated anyway. I don't know what more I could have done or could do now.

Sorry LTA tribe. I can't be silent any more.

I don't know this place now. I've had enough. I'm out. I'm also pissed off!

My husband's LTAs were not my fault and it is his job to fix the devastation he caused. If he doesn't love me enough or have the balls to do what it takes he can f..k off!

Laura

[This message edited by Laura28 at 5:00 AM, March 1st (Friday)]


Married 30yrs Me BW 57Yrs Him FWH 59yrs
OWzero 1988 EA?/PA? Gaslighted.
Dday May 28 2010.
OW1 1994(6mths PA, EA til dday).
OW2 2002(8yrs PA).
OW3 2009(1Yr PA).
Others???? Status: Not Divorcing..but.."You can't unfuck the goat"

Posts: 2729 | Registered: Jul 2010 | From: Australia
trynhard
♂ Member
Member # 22698
Default  Posted: 6:41 AM, March 1st (Friday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Laura, a good thing is not to be silent.

Posts: 2636 | Registered: Feb 2009 | From: Indiana
trynhard
♂ Member
Member # 22698
Default  Posted: 6:41 AM, March 1st (Friday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I have made some very harsh post recently about our role we played in our own relationships. I know men can take this but I am not so sure about the woman. To lead someone down the path of self evaluation can seem cruel when crushed by infidelity. It’s hard to take it when our ego and self esteem take a blow. People die when infidelity behaviors happen. It is that emotional.

Ego is about our own realities. If you read about Sigmund Freud you may find discover that our identification stops us from doing certain things our instincts wants us to do. It’s chaos.

Ego will eliminate our grief. Yes, I know to keep my ego. The choices other make I cannot control. It was not my fault.

And we must protect ourselve into the future. We must follow the 2 second rule while drive down the new paths we travel. We must know the reasons about us, understand it now. We must trust our instincts. We must know when our senses tell us something and we act appropriatly. We should fight our identites and become different people. When we cahnge we have a new identity and it should be better if we learn from others mistakes. We can only control ourselves.

Not easy to understand is it?

Yes Njgal, I am out of grief. Since I am at peace, I know how to get to peace given my own experience. And you too. Perhaps my own emotions are too advanced to be compassionate. I’ll give that some thought and I apologize to all I have offended.

I don’t need my wife to make me happy. She can cheat, take half, leave.. go do whatever she wants. She can be attracted to only me or not. I will still have my good friends, my kids, my parents, my own life. I choose to fill any need those who care about me and I do it to the best of my ablity knowing it will likely be returned to me. I no longer worry. I don’t need all the money I have but I still give it my best to build wealth. I can live a simple life in near poverty and still be happy. Just watching the Indianpolis Colts brings me a smile. Playing with my dog is joy. Fishing in the local ponds. You don’t need a spouse. Heck there are penty of people who will attracted to someone who gives, is caring, loving and intimate.

No, I don’t lay blame on other for my own behavoirs whether it was known as right or wrong at the time. I lay the blame at my own feet. Sometimes thing happen that I cannot control. They may or may not be the consequence of my own behavoirs. I take personal responsibility for myself, which seem not to be the theme of our socitey today. I have taken this postion most of my own R.

The key to overall happiness? Don’t tread on me or you will not be part of my life. Do things that are attractive and it will be returned.

There are things about men that are way different than women. Women mostly argue with emotion. Men don’t. I think this might be the case here.

[This message edited by trynhard at 6:47 AM, March 1st (Friday)]


Posts: 2636 | Registered: Feb 2009 | From: Indiana
atsenaotie
♂ Member
Member # 27650
Default  Posted: 6:45 AM, March 1st (Friday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

MC-Jack,

Also it was when she met OM. It was a low blow by me to say that as it opened the can of worms of that most traumatic and horrific time of her life.

This is the type of thing that has to be opened up and dealt with if your WW is going to grow and move forward. She needs to quit rug sweeping it and deal with it in IC.

I think she does not want me to send the bills as she is afraid (even if it is just paranoid) that once the other parties have this information is will then become currency ...

FWW lashed out at me about similar things. When I mentioned details in letter I sent to OM and his BS. She worried how my letter would look blown up on a screen as evidence in court. When I wrote to a website asking that photos of her and OM together at an event be taken down because it was my WW with her AP. She worried what people would say if word got she was having A with OM. She worried what my parents would think of her when I explained why I was behaving so erratically.

She needed to see and feel all of this. There are consequences to actions and she had not considered the consequences of having an A and cheating on her spouse.

I say a R is mutual in every way…
- A BS willingness to forgive
- A BS should be willing to also work on the marriage and do anything and everything they need to help save the marriage.

And this is why I believe too many people (including me) jump too soon into R. R cannot begin in an authentic way until the BS is well along in healing. If I had done everything and anything to save the M based on my FWW's perceptions before she owned her issues, we would have been R-ing another inauthentic M.

Why was I not attractive? What was it about me? <snip> But that person knows deep inside they did not do something they should have been doing, What is it?

Tryn,

FWW absolutely laid the reasons for her As at my feet. She and I talked about this, and she explained it in MC sessions. She gave examples, she had a whole list. She said that her forgiving me for ruining the M was equal to me forgiving her for years of A with multiple OM.

The thing is, it was her misperceptions and selfishness that caused her A, not my lack of attractiveness. She blamed me for her unhappiness, her own internal guilt led her to ascribe negative connotations to my behaviors, she only saw things in black or white and so she hated me for not always, always being white. The thing is, there was nothing that I could have done, because I was not the problem. When she said I was not attentive and loving enough, she would later say I was too needy and smothering. When she said I did not like her friends or children and that is why I was uninvolved, she would later say I tried to control her through her friends and children, or that I presenting a false front so that they would like me better. When money was tight, she complained how unfair it was others had more. When I studied to get better paying jobs with more flexibility, took on outside consulting for extra funds, she accused me of ignoring her. The examples go on and on, and FWW now recognizes her misperceptions.

There was no winning because I was not the problem, she was. It was not my behavior; it was her perceptions and the behavior of sick and broken people around her. The only thing I should have been doing that I was not was standing up for myself and divorcing my W.

We all come from different backgrounds, and there may be those who through passive detachment or active insult and injury pushed their WS to look for comfort elsewhere. My FWW was this kind of person. Still, the decision to have an A rather than withdraw, D, volunteer, or immerse in the kids lives is the decision of the WS. I may have been happier in my life than FWW, but I was no happier in the M. I continued to not be happy in the M while she was flirting and enjoying the attentions of OM for years, more than I will ever know.

I am now working to be the best person I can be, and a part of that is to be the best H I can for FWW. Before I could do this, I had to first heal and get to where I felt safe and gained some feeling of control back into my life. FWW then had to convince me it was worth putting in more effort rather than cutting my losses. To put in this effort I had to see what was different. Not that she was acting nice and loving to me, she did this when we were dating.

ETA

Do things that are attractive and it will be returned.

This is not true in my M, it is not a quid pro quo.

I try to be the most authentic person that I can be. I try to be honest, and open. If she loves who I am great, if I love who she is authentically great. If the negatives out-weigh the positives (and compromise cannot be forged), then we need to move on.

For me to receive credit for my attractive actions, my W (or whomever) must fist be able to perceive and understand them. If my W (or whomever)has problems with intimacy, empathy, projecting, black and white thinking, narcissim, selfishness, addiction, then my attractive efforts are for naught so far as the relationship goes.

[This message edited by atsenaotie at 6:54 AM, March 1st (Friday)]


LTA BS 53
FWW 60
M 1990, dday 10-5-09
Reconciled

Posts: 3967 | Registered: Feb 2010 | From: FL
trynhard
♂ Member
Member # 22698
Default  Posted: 6:51 AM, March 1st (Friday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

And this is why I believe too many people (including me) jump too soon into R.

I think you jump in.. or should I say after you give it some thought

If it goes well.. good.
If it goes bad.. You eliminate them from your world.

[This message edited by trynhard at 7:07 AM, March 1st (Friday)]


Posts: 2636 | Registered: Feb 2009 | From: Indiana
atsenaotie
♂ Member
Member # 27650
Default  Posted: 7:02 AM, March 1st (Friday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I think you jump in.

I think you look before you leap.
Sure my wife and I are now swimming together in the pool of life. Before I jumped in, I made sure the pool was deep enough, there was water in the pool, and that the water was treatd and conditioned so that it was safe.

Had I jumped back into the pool that was too shallow or without water I would have been injured again. If the water was not treated or the pool lacked the tools to keep the water healthy I would again be harmed eventually. If the water was too hot, too cold, too salty, I would not enjoy my swim. I had to make sure there were ropes marking off the dangerous locations. I had to ensure the water was clear enough (almost transparent) so I could see dangers coming or find my W if she sank or was lost.

Once all of these issues were OK for me, then I am ready to work on my swimming, to perfect my breast-stroking, to assist FWW when she is in need and allow her to do the same for me.

But first, I had to ensure the pool was safe to get back into.

[This message edited by atsenaotie at 7:04 AM, March 1st (Friday)]


LTA BS 53
FWW 60
M 1990, dday 10-5-09
Reconciled

Posts: 3967 | Registered: Feb 2010 | From: FL
trynhard
♂ Member
Member # 22698
Default  Posted: 7:08 AM, March 1st (Friday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

yes.. jumping in after thought..

Posts: 2636 | Registered: Feb 2009 | From: Indiana
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