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I Can Relate     Print Topic    
User Topic: Spouses/Partners of Sex Addicts-10
QVee
♀ Member
Member # 34670
Default  Posted: 9:04 PM, December 5th (Wednesday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Wow, Lastin, your WH sounds like he has some stalkerish tendencies. I would definitely be careful. I'm glad you found your anger. I know that all our spouses are douchebags, but your H is definitely wearing the King of Douchebaggery crown right now. I can't believe he went after you like that.

N & N that's scary. I don't know if it implicates your H, but if you've always had normal paps and now... I'm thinking of you.

I'm glad your school work is going well Missy. Mind if I ask what degree you're working on?

Hang in there, Hath.

(((SA spouses)))


BS: me 30yrs
WS: 33 yrs
Relationship: 6 yrs, married 2
"When they try to make you an extra in their movie, LEAVE THE THEATRE!"

Posts: 151 | Registered: Jan 2012 | From: Mordor
Missymomma
♀ Member
Member # 36988
Default  Posted: 9:05 PM, December 5th (Wednesday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Lastin - He is just trying to "hook" you back into him and his drama. Go NC and ignore him. You do sound like you are doing a bit better.


DDay - 6/15/11
R started - 7/1/11
False Discl- 9/27/12
Real Discl - 2/12/13
Poly - 3/1/13 Pass!
Me - BS (46)
WH - 52 (SA, NA, WA)
Kids: 2 littles and 1 grown
The road to recovery is long and hard. Some days I am up for it and others not!

Posts: 1084 | Registered: Sep 2012 | From: Texas
ChoosingHope
♀ Member
Member # 33606
Default  Posted: 9:55 PM, December 5th (Wednesday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

(((lastin)))

It sounds like an NPD rage. Complete lack of empathy for you. No real remorse for his own actions. Believes that HE is the victim. Blameshifting to you. All the anger.

Did you ever explore if he might have a personality disorder like NPD? Because NPDs go crazy like this when they start losing you - when you become strong enough to leave them for example. It's called splitting. And it happened to me. I'm still sort of shocked by it - I never saw it coming, and I never expected it.

Anyhow, you're dealing with a lot right now. But if you have a moment, you might want to do some internet research on NPD. Hang in there, you're doing great.


Posts: 1433 | Registered: Oct 2011
putonahappyface
♀ Member
Member # 30269
Default  Posted: 10:08 PM, December 5th (Wednesday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Wow, you all are a tough group to keep up with! I feel like I'm reading a novel & losing track of the various characters I'll just say I'm continuing to think of, & pray for, each of you.

Finally went to my first IC ever yesterday. Felt rather strange, but good I think. She recommended two books I hadn't heard of, Boundaries & Captivated. I think she basically wants me to focus on me & what brings me joy in life, & let SAWH worry about his recovery & program. She was going to read the material his CSAT emailed to us. She works with a lot of substance abuse addicts, but I don't think too many SA.

So, I'm not positive she can clarify what my role should be in terms of his recovery, but I do think she will be good for my self-esteem, spirituality & getting my strength & joy back. Is that enough?


BS (me) - 49; SAWH- 50 (hurtherbadly)
Married 26 yrs
2 DS - 20 &16
Dday 6/4/2010. 2 EA/PA
11/15/12 update: found lots of porn on phone: SA discovery


Posts: 708 | Registered: Dec 2010 | From: Bluegrass
Missymomma
♀ Member
Member # 36988
Default  Posted: 10:32 PM, December 5th (Wednesday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Q - We were posting at the same time. I am working towards a RN, just doing the prereqs right now. Trying to decide when I will have time to go full time for the program. With the kids and SAWH's schedule, it makes it hard. So just doing a little at a time for now.

Puton- Glad your therapy went well! Having a good therapist in your corner is so necessary.

Choosing - I am sure you are right, if not a full blown NPD, then lastin's SAWH has ALOT of the traits.

I've got to get some rest. Chat with ya'll later.


DDay - 6/15/11
R started - 7/1/11
False Discl- 9/27/12
Real Discl - 2/12/13
Poly - 3/1/13 Pass!
Me - BS (46)
WH - 52 (SA, NA, WA)
Kids: 2 littles and 1 grown
The road to recovery is long and hard. Some days I am up for it and others not!

Posts: 1084 | Registered: Sep 2012 | From: Texas
Nature_Girl
♀ Member
Member # 32554
Default  Posted: 11:52 PM, December 5th (Wednesday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Lastin, have you read the information on this website: http://outofthefog.net/Disorders/NPD.html

Happy, I think you need to focus 95% on yourself, 5% on whatever else. You cannot help your WH recover. That is fully his job. Completely. You helping him is only codependent or enabling. ALL the hard work has to be his, or it will be all for naught. I think your IC is on the right track with you.


Me = BS (Stay-at-home-mom)
Him = EX-d out (abusive troglodyte NPD SA)
3 elementary school-aged kids
Together 20 years
D-Day: Memorial Weekend 2011
2013 - I DIVORCED HIM, I'M FREE!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RBOJpIwF47Y

Posts: 8792 | Registered: Jun 2011 | From: USA
hathnofury
♀ Member
Member # 32550
Default  Posted: 7:58 AM, December 6th (Thursday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

(((Lastin))) I am so sorry. What an asshole. If it's not NPD, it is something super serious that you may need to look into how to get a restraining order in case it is needed for your safety. File a police report, tell them you just want what happened on record in case you will need it for evidence for a RO later.

Have you lawyered up? Because you need to, even if only to know what your options are. And there may be advantages to who files first, things you need to do with your money before you file, etc and you want it all done in case you do choose to file. And remember filing doesn't = divorce. It means you have started the process. You can always bail on the process if you change your mind, but you may lose some strategic advantages if you done do some homework first.

Forget him right now. You need to focus on you and what you need to do to feel safe right now.


BS 43, SAWH 38. M 15years, together 17. Body count in the triple digits. Both in recovery, trying to R.
Three kids under age 11.

Posts: 1410 | Registered: Jun 2011
hathnofury
♀ Member
Member # 32550
Default  Posted: 8:07 AM, December 6th (Thursday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Ladies, I am struggling.

I had asked SAWH to write his account of what happened Saturday because clearly we got two different impressions of what happened. I needed to see what he thought and I wanted him to show it to his therapist. We talked a long time Sunday night, so he didn't get to work on it until Monday and Tuesday night, and we went over it last night.

So understand even though he is a lawyer and writes drafts all day, he does not really like to write in general at all. He always put term papers and reports and stuff off to the last minute, and they never were his best work since he could make up the difference with tests. Does not write me love notes or anything like that. Writing is not his thing.

But he put a LOT of effort into this. Pages and pages of stream of consciousness. And since he had a couple of days to look back and reflect, it wasn't just what he thought and did at the time. It was I thought this and did that, boy was I wrong, this is why, and this is what I should have done instead. All very validating for me.

However, I felt he still put too much emphasis on how the poly test was flawed. I agree that he could not have passed with the questions being what they are. But I do not agree he should have let the questions just be what they were and said no. He should have either said, no, these questions still won't work, or I just need to give up and say yes. I also didn't think he realizes how pervasive the lying is in his nature, how he has so much difficulty actually discerning honesty, and that he needs to own up to that and work on it. Not just that lying is a habit to break, that is is part of his very core, and he needs to change his core.

And we discussed this and many other things late into the night. And I will write about it later, right now I need to get my kids to school.


BS 43, SAWH 38. M 15years, together 17. Body count in the triple digits. Both in recovery, trying to R.
Three kids under age 11.

Posts: 1410 | Registered: Jun 2011
Missymomma
♀ Member
Member # 36988
Default  Posted: 9:30 AM, December 6th (Thursday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I also didn't think he realizes how pervasive the lying is in his nature, how he has so much difficulty actually discerning honesty, and that he needs to own up to that and work on it. Not just that lying is a habit to break, that is is part of his very core, and he needs to change his core.

This is a huge occupational hazard for attorneys. We have discussed this a lot in and out of marital therapy. Between law school and working in law firms, this took SAWHs naturally tendency to lie and honed it. He is surrounded by people that lie and cheat. It makes it much easier to justify his behavior. Basically the profession encourages and rewards lying, as long as you win!


DDay - 6/15/11
R started - 7/1/11
False Discl- 9/27/12
Real Discl - 2/12/13
Poly - 3/1/13 Pass!
Me - BS (46)
WH - 52 (SA, NA, WA)
Kids: 2 littles and 1 grown
The road to recovery is long and hard. Some days I am up for it and others not!

Posts: 1084 | Registered: Sep 2012 | From: Texas
Missymomma
♀ Member
Member # 36988
Default  Posted: 9:44 AM, December 6th (Thursday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

O.k. Don't know how appropriate this is but don't know who else would understand. We are doing the 90 days of celibacy. It is hard! He seems to be doing o.k. but we are almost 1/3 through and I am not enjoying it. It was fine at first because I was furious and disgusted. Now that he is behaving loving and like someone in recovery it is much harder!

O.k. in the grand scheme of things 90 days is not that much it just seems like one more thing I am sacrificing for him. Going to go and workout to perk myself up!


DDay - 6/15/11
R started - 7/1/11
False Discl- 9/27/12
Real Discl - 2/12/13
Poly - 3/1/13 Pass!
Me - BS (46)
WH - 52 (SA, NA, WA)
Kids: 2 littles and 1 grown
The road to recovery is long and hard. Some days I am up for it and others not!

Posts: 1084 | Registered: Sep 2012 | From: Texas
hathnofury
♀ Member
Member # 32550
Default  Posted: 9:52 AM, December 6th (Thursday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Ok, so the real struggle is what happened after we discussed what he wrote.

What he wrote really is no surprise, I had already guessed what his line of thinking was, knew what his deficits were in dealing with what happened, knew he would later step back and see what he did in hindsight.

And he was still resistant to what his deficiencies could mean in terms of how not normal or healthy they are. I just don't think he can wrap his head around it. He is too close to see it.

He said I miss you. I said I didn't go anywhere. He said "But *I* did. I have been living in my head all my life and never truly have been here with you, for you."

He shared an epiphamy he had that was furthered by a SA meeting. Basically he fully realized how selfish he was, how his whole life has always been about him. That his whole life, he has never been part of something that was bigger than himself, he had no real family unit growing up, never accepted any religion or community as part of his life, never did team-oriented things, he always chose things that were just about him. That he never really understood he was just small part in the big universe, and how much he impacted others by what he did and said.

He said his greatest regret was that when he married me, that he never really understood being married was being a part of something bigger than himself. That having children was really part of being something bigger than himself. He still had thought it was all about him. That he had married someone he loved with all his heart, that had all these great characteristics he always wanted to have, but never seemed to be able to achieve. (Insert long discussion of all the things he admired about me.) He was so lucky to have me, and thought that being with me would make him a better person, and instead he failed me. Over and over again. He wasn't truly present. He wasn't being part of something bigger than him. He wasn't all in. And even after being confronted with what he had done, and given second chance, he still didn't do the main requirement of being all in. He thought he was doing what he was supposed to do, going to therapy, 12 step, showing acts of service, being affectionate, trying to support me in my healing, etc was enough. But now he sees it wasn't. He wasn't doing what mattered most to me, for us. For our family.

He wanted to be that for me. He felt the best thing he could do with his life was everything he could to make the rest of my life better, even if it meant not being my husband. Then he broke down, said how much he loved me, how sorry he was, how wrong he was, how ashamed he was. And then he begged, please don't let me go.

I held him and let him cry a long time. He's not a crier, not one to really bear his soul very often. He is not capable of crying as an act to manipulate, he is barely able to cry at all under most circumstances. I think he finds shame in crying period, I'm not sure why. Then, he asked what he could do to start to earn back my trust. What could he do to help me. What did I need. What did I want. What could he do. And when I wasn't giving me suggestions right away, he offered some. Can I take care of the kids all weekend to let you really have time to yourself. Can I go to the store for you, is there laundry I can do, etc. On Tuesday, I had said I was not going to 12 step, I was staying home to rest and make sure I ate three meals. So he had come home taken me to lunch to help me ensure I ate three meals. Could he help me like that?

I said I really just need time. Time to see what I need, what I want. I am very sad and in a lot of pain. I can't think past one day ahead right now.

I read the site NG linked to. IDK that NPD really fits, it sort of fits but not entirely. In all honesty Antisocial Personality Disorder really sounds more like it fits. Aspergers sounds more like it fits. I'm not obsessing on his possible other diagnosis, I am trying to figure out this response as it relates to me. It is genuine, but is it the product of a disorder that is going to bite me in the ass later, that sort of thing. I can't see anything objectively right now.


BS 43, SAWH 38. M 15years, together 17. Body count in the triple digits. Both in recovery, trying to R.
Three kids under age 11.

Posts: 1410 | Registered: Jun 2011
putonahappyface
♀ Member
Member # 30269
Default  Posted: 11:07 AM, December 6th (Thursday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Hath - that sounds like, perhaps, a pretty significant breakthrough for him. I totally understand the fear of it coming back & biting on ass though. Maybe just let him run with this "being there for you" plan, & see if he can sustain the actions to match the words.

Missy - we're doing the 90 days of abstinance too. We're about 3 weeks in. SAWH says he's holding up well, & I am too. For the moment if feels like "one less thing" to worry about! I should probably be concerned about that; if I still feel that way 2 months from now I will have another topic to discuss with my IC...


BS (me) - 49; SAWH- 50 (hurtherbadly)
Married 26 yrs
2 DS - 20 &16
Dday 6/4/2010. 2 EA/PA
11/15/12 update: found lots of porn on phone: SA discovery


Posts: 708 | Registered: Dec 2010 | From: Bluegrass
stabbed81
♀ New Member
Member # 37686
Default  Posted: 1:11 PM, December 6th (Thursday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Background.
My husband and I are in our early 30's. We grew up in a different county which has very strong cultural values.Both had secure and loving childhood. We are hard working professional immigrants in the USA. Been together since I was 19. We were the first for each other.

I have been reading SI for a little while and what a great support it is.

My husband of 7 years (13 years together) started cheating on me 5 years ago.
I found out in July 2012 by accidentally going through is bank account. He initially denied that the withdrawals were even made by him.

Then there were stories of Poker played by him. He started going to Gamblers Anonymous. Then I saw multiple phone calls on his cellphone bills. He admitted calling girls from Craigslist but he swore that he never met anybody. After a month of me asking questions, pleading, begging, abusing he admitted that he has been going for sensual massages for a year and a half. He started SANON right away. Then he admitted that he has been doing this for 5 years but no intercourse or no oral sex.

He looked me right into my eyes, swore on our daughter's life and lied.
At that point my gut feeling was telling me that it can't be true. I begged him to tell me the truth so i can began healing. I tried to kill my self. He kept saying that it was only sensual massage nothing else.

After a month, I had a solid proof on my hand and because of that he admitted that he DID have intercourse with 3 different women in those 5 years. He used to have regular sex with this girl he found on CL when we were trying to get pregnant, when I was pregnant and after our daughter was born. This is hurting so much. He has polluted the most precious thing in my life.

In last 5 months I have been in a detective mode and always hyper vigilant. I called around to find out if he has been with those women or not. I went through his phone records line by line. Some women made fun of me. Some of them just out right rude.Everybody lied.

Now he has been saying that he has nothing more to hide. He has told me everything. But because of he lied so much in past, I cant believe anything he says now. I want to and I do for a little while but after a little while I start remembering how swiftly he used to lie and how he broke my heart.

He started seeing 2 different ICs. He did not see CSAT right away. Now since last week he has started seeing a CSAT upon my request. I have a good IC but she is not CSAT. After reading books about SA, I have decided to seek a professional help and going to start seeing a CSAT from next week. Also,we have been seeing a MC.

It has been very hard. Everybody says time will heal this but I have been keep getting worse. I still can't eat well and sleep well. I have meltdowns any day/anytime. Sometimes they are hysterical and I start having horrible thoughts.

I will post about some more details later on about some developments and his behaviours.

Thank you for listening.
Sorry, my thoughts are not sorted out and I can't articulate very well.


Me-BW 32
Him-33 Sex addict x 5 years
Married 7 years together 13 years
3 year old DD

Posts: 26 | Registered: Dec 2012 | From: Bay area
hathnofury
♀ Member
Member # 32550
Default  Posted: 1:12 PM, December 6th (Thursday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

When I say bite me in the ass , I am speaking of the behaviors that were listed in all the personality disorders on the site that NG linked to. Like drama queen stuff to suck you back in, gaslighting, splitting, etc. But this reaction, to me anyway (and I know I am in a compromised state and may not see it for what it is), doesn't totally fit in with any of it explicitly. There are still a lot of "I" statements, still a lot of resisting responsibility for his actions, obviously a lot of trouble with empathy.

Puton was right, there was a sort of breakthrough there but I don't know what, and I don't know necessarily that it really benefits ME or my healing. Huge for him, sure. But it comes to no surprise to me in a SA meeting that everyone couldn't help but need to share, to the point that not everyone had time to share, how they were selfish instead of selfless in their addiction. Oh, the irony.

I am a firm believer you show your true self when you are in the worst of times. And he wrote a lot of stuff, said a lot of stuff last night that shows both good and bad things about his true self. But what is sticking with me today is "Please don't let me go."

In his darkest, most desperate moment he could have said "Please don't leave me." "Please don't give up on me/us." "Please give me another chance." But he didn't. Probably because he couldn't bear to hear me say no.

"Please don't let me go."

When letting go is THE only thing I can do now. No matter how it plays out. Detaching, 180, etc is the only healthy and appropriate response. I don't necessarily have to let HIM go, I guess, but I still have to let go.

He only said it once, only when he finally let his guard down. He's not a rager or engager, really. He said it so softly, before he broke down and cried. THAT is his greatest fear. Not that I will leave. Not that I will expose him to anyone. Not that I could take his kids away. That I will let him go.

And I am not sure how I feel about that.


BS 43, SAWH 38. M 15years, together 17. Body count in the triple digits. Both in recovery, trying to R.
Three kids under age 11.

Posts: 1410 | Registered: Jun 2011
hathnofury
♀ Member
Member # 32550
Default  Posted: 2:01 PM, December 6th (Thursday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

(((stabbed))) Welcome to the group you never wanted to join. You are safe here. We understand.

Have you considered meds? I didn't take them for a long time, and I can't believe how much it has helped. I take an anti-anxiety and a sleep aid. Both the very lowest dose available by Rx. It makes dealing with the trauma a little more bearable.


BS 43, SAWH 38. M 15years, together 17. Body count in the triple digits. Both in recovery, trying to R.
Three kids under age 11.

Posts: 1410 | Registered: Jun 2011
Missymomma
♀ Member
Member # 36988
Default  Posted: 2:38 PM, December 6th (Thursday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Welcome, Stabbed. Sorry you found yourself here. Hopefully with you both working with CSATs you will find your way onto more stable ground. Try to take as good care of yourself as you can. Exercise, eat and sleep. You will find good support and understanding here. (((hugs)))


DDay - 6/15/11
R started - 7/1/11
False Discl- 9/27/12
Real Discl - 2/12/13
Poly - 3/1/13 Pass!
Me - BS (46)
WH - 52 (SA, NA, WA)
Kids: 2 littles and 1 grown
The road to recovery is long and hard. Some days I am up for it and others not!

Posts: 1084 | Registered: Sep 2012 | From: Texas
ChoosingHope
♀ Member
Member # 33606
Default  Posted: 3:26 PM, December 6th (Thursday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

(((Hath))) Somehow I never knew that your H has so many emotional/psychological problems. He seems to need more help than what a CSAT can give him - has he seen a psychiatrist? Has he always been like this?

Antisocial personality disorder is terrifying, and I don't think that there's much chance of getting better. Are your children too young to understand that he has problems/is different from other dads? Can your friends tell? Does your husband have a lot of close friends?

I'm sorry you're dealing with all of this. The fact that lying is part of his "core" is really scary.

As an aside, my STBX is an attorney, and it seems like half the people I know are attorneys working for large firms. I have to say that I don't think that the vast majority of them are liars or spend their time in a lying culture.

But maybe, once again, I'm just naive.

(((Hath))) Worried about you.


Posts: 1433 | Registered: Oct 2011
Missymomma
♀ Member
Member # 36988
Default  Posted: 3:54 PM, December 6th (Thursday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Well, I should have been more specific. Litigation attorneys are really bad groups.. Corporate seem to not be quite as bad. Criminal and family law seems to be pretty bad too. I have worked in all areas and real estate and bankruptcy were the only areas that seemed really honest. All firms have different cultures. I know many attorneys and as friends they have been great. When you work with them you see the other side. Lying is very accepted, of course they say they are just being colorful. And of course that is not true of all of them but the percentage is very high. This is one reason I gave known a lot to quit the profession or start their own firms.

Part of the lying is covering for the affairs and strip clubs. When groups travel together some really crossing boundaries happens. I have known many long term affairs. We are talking over 10 years. I know of one gal that is having an affair with 3 different men at work. All to get ahead. I have good friends at 3 different firms and this is going on at some level at all of these.

Edited to add: This made me remember the very first law firm I worked at. The wife of an attorney I was working for just flat out asked me if he was having an affair with a certain paralegal. I said I really didn't know. Then she asked me if that is what people were saying and if they spent a lot of time together. I am a very bad liar and just kind of hemmed and hawed. She said thank you, that is all I need to know. I actually have some more salacious stories than that from 2 other firms but don't really want to put them down in writing. Some very jaded stuff.

[This message edited by Missymomma at 4:29 PM, December 6th (Thursday)]


DDay - 6/15/11
R started - 7/1/11
False Discl- 9/27/12
Real Discl - 2/12/13
Poly - 3/1/13 Pass!
Me - BS (46)
WH - 52 (SA, NA, WA)
Kids: 2 littles and 1 grown
The road to recovery is long and hard. Some days I am up for it and others not!

Posts: 1084 | Registered: Sep 2012 | From: Texas
ChoosingHope
♀ Member
Member # 33606
Default  Posted: 5:30 PM, December 6th (Thursday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Interesting, thanks MissyMom. I know mostly corporate attorneys, and I'll be watching them now!

I have been shocked and disgusted by the reprehensible actions of my first divorce attorney and STBX's D attorney. The term bottom feeders is not bad enough to describe them. They deal in filth and lies and pain and cover-ups - they make their money off of it, and they could not care less about the people involved. They don't care about the truth either.

They are grossly immoral, and i wouldn't put anything past them. I have never, ever met anyone like them in my previous professional life!


Posts: 1433 | Registered: Oct 2011
hathnofury
♀ Member
Member # 32550
Default  Posted: 6:19 PM, December 6th (Thursday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Ok, just so we are clear I am not any sort of expert in psychology, so I could not begin to assert any kind of diagnosis on anybody. I was just clicking through all the disorders on the web page, and saw Antisocial. Thought, hey, maybe that's me now. Read through the beginning, said wow, aside from the propensity towards violence, that sounds pretty close to SAWH. Then I got scared when it said it was estimated in 80% of the prison population and didn't have a good treatment record. Then I thought, well, I wonder if it impacts 80% of the lawyer population. :laugh.

But honestly, if you take out the prison references and all that, it fits a LOT of SAs. Don't show respect or care for right and wrong. Don't care about breaking laws, at least where it comes to their addiction. They have no issue with lying to get what they want. Etc. So honestly I don't think it's a stretch that it could be pretty prevalent yet often undiagnosed in SAs. Seriously, if you go back and read all the stuff on it without the prejudices of it being slapped on a lot of prisoners or being a hopeless mental illness, just see how many similarities there are.

Again, not a doc of any kind. Just calling it as I see it, LOL. The law profession aside.


BS 43, SAWH 38. M 15years, together 17. Body count in the triple digits. Both in recovery, trying to R.
Three kids under age 11.

Posts: 1410 | Registered: Jun 2011
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