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User Topic: Betrayed Men- Part 9
MC_Jack
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Member # 35016
Default  Posted: 3:11 PM, April 25th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

The way your wife is with you...that's how she was with him. The same mannerisms, the same habits...

So true. And ironic. On the trip where my WW first decided to meet the MOM, she was going for 2 nights. I am sure she was really worked up/ excited etc. for that first night. After a day going around the conference with the guy (fueling expectation), the guy had to go meet some folks before reconnecting with WW for dinner. Well, the guy was late. Very late. To the point that restaurants were closed and my WW had not eaten. When my WW has not eaten, and the blood sugar runs low, she is a demon. She melts down completely into an irrational mess. So the OM had to wait until the next night to make his conquest.

Them lying to themselves and you agreeing to it, because you need something to place your hope in.

A la Conrad's "Heart of Darkness". Man needs his illusions to survive.

If you want a clearer, more authentic idea, you've got to have journals.

She has those stashed inaccessibly at a friends house per my request. Sometimes I want to got there. But I have my illusions....plus they will just be filled with self-loathing (what am I doing?) and Jack-loathing (it's all his fault). I will probably stick with some more Q&A.


Funny how we often want special-ness out of something ordinary:

...[it's] just what couples in intimate relationships do...

That is my obstacle to the simple truth. Letting go of that. And understanding how she could so confuse being degraded with 'friendship'. Can we whisper 'ISSUES'?

[This message edited by MC_Jack at 3:11 PM, April 25th (Thursday)]


I am not a marriage counselor. I chose "MC Jack" in the spirit of a handle like "MC Hammer" or Young MC"...there is a lot of 'rapping' here, no? At the time I did not know what MC stood for on this site. Duh.

Posts: 792 | Registered: Mar 2012 | From: West Coast of Hopa-hopa-land
DWBH
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Member # 35512
Default  Posted: 4:56 PM, April 25th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Awesome post, WAL, truly. Difficult for those of us a year or so out to really comprehend and absorb. That grieving process is just such a huge unknown at this stage.

No one is 100% remorseful. Not ever.

I wonder how many WS on this forum agree with this statement...


Me: BH, 43
Her: FWW, 41 (ThornyRose)
M: 16 years, together 19
2 Daughters: 14 and 12
D Day: 9/25/2011; Lies & TT to 5/4/2012
~Double betrayal; caught them in the act~

Posts: 729 | Registered: May 2012 | From: WI
5454real
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Member # 37455
Default  Posted: 5:43 PM, April 25th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

You will never know the truth. Never. Not even with a 100% remorseful and transparent WS...which you don't have. If you think you've got one, you just haven't hit the right button yet. No one is 100% remorseful. Not ever. You know that because eventually you'll hear some shit about silver linings or lessons learned, probably couched in all sorts of "it should have never happened, but..." logic

I can understand the truth issue. At best, even if she is giving her best effort, it's a subjective thing. It is what it is. Besides that, due to FOO issues she can't remember half the stuff we do sexually, let alone something she'd rather forget.

It's the 100% remorse issue that gets me. How fucking tough is it to realize that no matter if the lottery hits tomorrow and the sky starts dripping beer her A has scarred me for life. Not crippled, not destroyed but scarred. To not be 100% remorseful for that?

That's the shit sandwich with liver. The affair? I can understand(sorta) how poor coping skills can lead an unhealthy individual down that path, but remorse is mandatory. I'm just getting to the point of acceptance of the way you posted it WAL.

I'd like to think that if I ever made those piss poor choices that I'd be 100% remorseful. Being honest and human I suppose I'd have to look for a 'bright side' also just to maintain some semblance of dignity. I assume my FWW being human is the same. I just gotta figure out my tolerance level.


BH 50, WW 41
DS 23(Mine),SD 21,SS 19(Hers),DS 8 Ours, DGS 2 1/2
D=Day #1 5/04EA (Rugswept)
D-Day #2 3/10/12, TT til 3/13/12
Married 10yrs
“I have no love for a friend who loves in words alone.”
― Sophocles, Antigone

Posts: 2086 | Registered: Nov 2012 | From: midwest
nuance
♂ Member
Member # 28793
Default  Posted: 11:21 PM, April 25th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Wow WAL. I know we all had to eat a shit sandwich but yours was definitely supersized. You're a better man than I am.

And the silver lining thing... you are right. I hate when that comes up.


Dday May 2000. R'ed.
People suck.

Posts: 1160 | Registered: Jun 2010 | From: California
jjct
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Member # 17484
Default  Posted: 5:00 AM, April 26th (Friday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

how many WS on this forum agree with this statement...

I would think that they'd say; "I'm as remorseful as I can be."

No one is 100% anything after all.

That's why "I know enough" became a big part of my healing.


Posts: 6032 | Registered: Dec 2007 | From: texas
wincing_at_light
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Member # 14393
Default  Posted: 7:15 AM, April 26th (Friday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

jjct's got what I was getting at -- try not to get too hung up on percentages.

I think remorse is like trust. Just like your WS has to accept that there will never be 100% trust again, you'll likely get to like a 97% range -- which is close enough to 100% that you and they will never see a functional difference.

I think remorse works that way, too. If you never see a functional difference on the bits they're holding back or use as building blocks for making sense of their life after the A, then it doesn't matter.

In other words, if they're not still hiding shit, glamorizing the affair, wallowing in the fantasy, telling you that you need to get over it, being resentful about your questions, healing or effort to understand -- etc., etc., etc. -- then whether they're at 97% or 100% is a difference that makes no difference.

If they're still pining for OM's dick or remembering fondly the times they spent together during the A, then, frankly, they're so far down on the remorse spectrum that you can't even measure it in full percentage points.


Machiavellian idiot savant

Posts: 6690 | Registered: Apr 2007 | From: Indiana
ReunitePangea
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Member # 37529
Default  Posted: 7:51 AM, April 26th (Friday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

WAL - I get what you are saying but always looking at life in shades of grey can be a dangerous place. Sometimes it is just easier to make it black and white.

If your WW is at 97% remorseful, do yourself a favor and just round up. It is as close as she is likely to get and at some point you just need to accept good is good enough. If your WW is at a much lower percentage, well then it doesnt much matter how much remorse she actually gives you now does it. This crap is hard enough and sometimes it is just easier to keep it simple.

Also you say liars lie, and our WS likely had to lie many times. But guess what, I have lied to my WW too. I am 100% positive all of you have as well. Our lies likely were about less important subjects to us but lies all the same - "yes honey, I did take out the trash, I'm not sure why they missed it".

In my WWs case I don't know if she actually had to lie that many times in 12+ years of cheating. I made it easy on her, when she came home an hour after bars closed I didn't even ask where she had been. Now she used a GREAT amount of deception but the actually lying was less frequent. Keeping it simple, you just have to know that all humans lie, it is what we do. What is interesting is that for some reason I thought I married the one person that I stupidly thought was incapable of lying to me. Once I finally accepted my WW as actually human it became a little easier to start to forgive and set boundaries with consequences.


BS - Me 38
WS - Wife 39
D-Day - Oct 12
Married 10 years
OM1 - 12-year LTA
OM2 - 9 month A turned into open relationship with couple for another 1 1/2 years

Posts: 406 | Registered: Nov 2012
StillGoing
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Member # 28571
Default  Posted: 8:10 AM, April 26th (Friday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Repeat: YOU.WILL.NEVER.KNOW.THE.TRUTH.

Because you weren't there. It wasn't part of your life experience. You can understand it as a story, but that's all. In the same way that someone takes a book you love and puts it on the big screen -- you can recognize the story, but how they imagine it in their minds eye and how you imagine it are different. The experience is different, even though you both had the exact same access to the source material.

This is it right here.

Even with a wife who WANTS to give you the whole truth, it is not physically possible. Even without anything else going on in there, the brain doesn't work like that. Memory is not static and it is not 100% reliable. We confabulate. When we want to recall an event, our brains reconstruct it - not digging out some mental snapshot but actually rebuilding it.

If you remind yourself of something daily, recall it, it both cements itself and also subjects itself to warpage from other influences. It's not a conscious thing, and for people accustomed to lying it's a hugely difficult process even at the optimal moments.

Even if we *were* there, over time those memories aren't going to be 100% reliable either. Guys who walk in on that shit have it seared in, and they won't notice the process of losing pieces of that memory or adding to it. For the most part the basic truth is there, but the details become fuzzy over time.

As a slight sidetrack to that,"THEY" have made a lot of progress in identifying calcium triggers in long term memory storage and the building of new proteins for memory recall and have successfully tested "DRUGS" on rats to erase memories; certain protein inhibitors when taken will block the reconstruction of the memory so what happens is that when you are asked to remember an event, the brains hardware is intentionally broken in that function and the memory is dropped on the floor. It doesn't get replaced in long term storage, it's just gone. So it's possible that sooner or later there may be magical memory-gone pills like that. Makes the question of "If there was a pill would you take it" a lot more cogent.

eta:

That's not to say all that shit above there means you can't get enough answers to construct a narrative (stealing that from WAL), but all the details are never going to be available. You won't ever get 100% but that's to be expected. You can still get enough info to build a reliable enough story on which you can base your decisions.

[This message edited by StillGoing at 8:11 AM, April 26th (Friday)]


“Fate is a fickle bitch who dotes on irony.”

Posts: 7119 | Registered: May 2010 | From: USA
DWBH
♂ Member
Member # 35512
Default  Posted: 8:40 AM, April 26th (Friday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I would think that they'd say; "I'm as remorseful as I can be."

No one is 100% anything after all.

OK, I get it... that clicks with me. I guess it's along the same lines of when I finally realized and accepted that my WW would never demonstrate her remorse in the exact way I wanted. She is definitely far enough up the remorse spectrum, and meeting all the "basic requirements" commonly stated here on SI. While I would love to see her here in SI, participating, and sharing her shame with everyone here, I know that is just not her. She doesn't wallow in anything, not the A, and more times than not, her shame.


Me: BH, 43
Her: FWW, 41 (ThornyRose)
M: 16 years, together 19
2 Daughters: 14 and 12
D Day: 9/25/2011; Lies & TT to 5/4/2012
~Double betrayal; caught them in the act~

Posts: 729 | Registered: May 2012 | From: WI
wincing_at_light
♂ Member
Member # 14393
Default  Posted: 9:10 AM, April 26th (Friday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

quote]WAL - I get what you are saying but always looking at life in shades of grey can be a dangerous place. Sometimes it is just easier to make it black and white.

Agreed. I would, in fact, strongly *not* recommend that guys new to this process start thinking in shades of grey, giving credit for the natural preverifications of memory, etc., etc.

When you're getting the first few drafts of the affair story from your spouse, you should treat everything as black and white. Assume that omissions are lies and "I can't remembers" are covering things up -- because the overwhelming statistical evidence is that most WS's trickle truth the shit out of their BS.

Looking at shades of grey is for the time when you're once again able to give your spouse the benefit of the doubt because they've stopped acting like a cum dumpster.

If your WW is at 97% remorseful, do yourself a favor and just round up. It is as close as she is likely to get and at some point you just need to accept good is good enough. If your WW is at a much lower percentage, well then it doesnt much matter how much remorse she actually gives you now does it. This crap is hard enough and sometimes it is just easier to keep it simple.

Agreed. Like I said, don't get bogged down in statistics and gradations. If she's remorseful enough for you, that's all that matters...because if she's *not* remorseful enough for you -- even if she's hitting 97% on someone else's subjective scale -- then it's not enough for you, and she needs to either strive harder or get the fuck out.

(Or conversely, you should maybe look at your standards and see if you're setting the bar so high that no one could reach it...which is probably a good indicator that the A was a deal-breaker and you'd be happier with a more fully formed and emotionally developed human being as your spouse rather than waiting for this one to finish baking.)


Also you say liars lie, and our WS likely had to lie many times. But guess what, I have lied to my WW too. I am 100% positive all of you have as well. Our lies likely were about less important subjects to us but lies all the same - "yes honey, I did take out the trash, I'm not sure why they missed it".

In my WWs case I don't know if she actually had to lie that many times in 12+ years of cheating. I made it easy on her, when she came home an hour after bars closed I didn't even ask where she had been. Now she used a GREAT amount of deception but the actually lying was less frequent. Keeping it simple, you just have to know that all humans lie, it is what we do. What is interesting is that for some reason I thought I married the one person that I stupidly thought was incapable of lying to me. Once I finally accepted my WW as actually human it became a little easier to start to forgive and set boundaries with consequences.

I think this is an important insight. Remembering that your spouse is human and that some of their shit is just the logical conclusion of human beings doing shitty things and trying to cover it up from fear of exposure is a big step on the way to forgiveness.

When your wife stops being a dirty slut and becomes "someone who hurt me by having sex outside of our marriage", that's an important mile marker on the Empathy Highway.

It's sort of like...at some point, you'll start thinking about your wife's affair and using the word "mistake(s)", and it won't piss you off. You'll start thinking to yourself, "OK, yeah, that shit really hurts for awhile, and then you get over it."

We minimize our own pain after awhile. It's part of healing. We forget. Stuff stops being such a big deal.

In light of that, it's vitally important to get the facts you can and construct the most difficult narrative you can handle. It's going to make your life hell, but you are going to survive it. Whether she fucked the guy 8x under a blanket in the back of the van while you were driving the families to an amusement park or it was only 2x (or never happened at all because she did, in fact, tell him that wasn't cool) doesn't matter eventually.

Once you come to terms with your narrative, you stop thinking about it. You have the broad outlines and let the details fade. The details are what bug you in the beginning, so that's why I suggest you should always opt for the worst case scenario where there isn't enough evidence or honesty from your spouse to establish it definitively.

Because you're going to get over it. Might as well get over the worst thing and know that once you've put this shit to bed, it is really *put to fucking bed* and won't continue to haunt you with what-ifs later.

Plus, the little spiteful guy inside you is going to take his pound of flesh from your WS based on the narrative you construct -- whether it's things you let yourself say, get away with, money you spend, times you ignore her, holidays you forget, obligations you let slide...whatever. Might as well get your money's worth. Then, if you leave pounds of flesh on the table because of your boundless compassion, you can look at yourself and remember what a great person you are for not getting everything back that you deserved.

Narratives are important. Being the hero of your own narrative is essential.

With big trauma like this, it's entirely too easy to feel like we've become a bit player (usually the villain) in someone else's narrative, because we spend so much time trying to see and understand things through their eyes.

The affair is not your narrative. It is just a bit scene in the narrative of *your* life. An obstacle to be overcome, nothing more.

It's not your story. It never was.

And for awhile, that hurts like hell, because you thought you and your wife had the same story.

D-day is about learning that all narratives are first person, and when you jump into the head of another narrator, you're just imagining what they experience. And chances are you're fooling yourself about what they're actually thinking.

You really start to heal when you take charge of the terms of your own storytelling, when you actively interpret your motives, boundaries, actions, justifications, entitlements, etc., in light of your own story rather than trying to make them fit into "hers" or "ours". Don't abdicate your right to your own story. And, shit, trust yourself to be decent enough that you're not going to freak the fuck out about the fact that i used "justification" and "entitlement" in the previous sentence because "that's some sort of wayward mindset!"

Also this from MC_Jack:

A la Conrad's "Heart of Darkness". Man needs his illusions to survive.

Excellent catch. Anyone who hasn't read Heart of Darkness should go do it right now.

It's really important.


Machiavellian idiot savant

Posts: 6690 | Registered: Apr 2007 | From: Indiana
Tred
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Member # 34086
Default  Posted: 1:35 PM, April 26th (Friday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Anyone who hasn't read Heart of Darkness should go do it right now.

WAL, can you give a reader's digest on this? What's the book about other than being important to read?


Married: 16 years (14 @JFO)
D-Day: 11/09/11
"Ohhhhh...shut up Tred!" - NOT the official SI motto (DS)

Posts: 3306 | Registered: Dec 2011
wincing_at_light
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Member # 14393
Default  Posted: 1:47 PM, April 26th (Friday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Dude goes to British colonial Africa and rides a steam boat down the river to pick up another dude who has gone native.

It's all about the collapse of the illusions of civilization, structure, and worldview as one gets farther from the core ideals. HoD just uses the metaphor of distance and Empire to bring that out.

It's like 130 page long. Really more of a novella. You could knock it out in an afternoon at work.


Machiavellian idiot savant

Posts: 6690 | Registered: Apr 2007 | From: Indiana
wincing_at_light
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Member # 14393
Default  Posted: 1:48 PM, April 26th (Friday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Srsly. I think it's shorter than most of my posts.


Machiavellian idiot savant

Posts: 6690 | Registered: Apr 2007 | From: Indiana
wincing_at_light
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Member # 14393
Default  Posted: 1:48 PM, April 26th (Friday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Well, not that one.


ETA: Or this one.

[This message edited by wincing_at_light at 1:48 PM, April 26th (Friday)]


Machiavellian idiot savant

Posts: 6690 | Registered: Apr 2007 | From: Indiana
StillGoing
♂ Member
Member # 28571
Default  Posted: 2:02 PM, April 26th (Friday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Here's the Iron Maiden cliffs notes:

I've looked into the heart of darkness
Where the blood-red journey ends
When you've faced the heart of darkness
Even your soul begins to bend

For a week I have been waiting
Still I am only in Saigon
The walls move in a little closer
I feel the jungle call me on

Every minute I get weaker
While in the jungle they grow strong
What I wanted was a mission
And for my sins they gave me one

They brought it up just like room service
'Cause everyone gets what they want
And when that mission was all over
I'd never want another one

Oh!

I know, captain,
That you've done this work before
We've got a problem
You can help us all I'm sure
The colonel's gone rogue
And his methods are unsound
You'll take a PBR up river track him down

There's a conflict in every human heart
And the temptation is to take it all to far
In this war things get so confused
But there are some things
Which cannot be excused

He's acting like a God - an insane lunatic
Your mission - terminate with extreme prejudice
Your route is dangerous and your progress may be slow
Here is the file and it's all you need to know

Oh! Oh!

Here I am the knife in my hand
And now I understand why the genius must die

Now I stand alone in the darkness
With his blood upon my hands
Where sat the warrior the poet
Now lie the fragments of a man

I've looked into the heart of darkness
Where the blood-red journey ends
When you've faced the heart of darkness
Even your soul begins to bend


“Fate is a fickle bitch who dotes on irony.”

Posts: 7119 | Registered: May 2010 | From: USA
StillGoing
♂ Member
Member # 28571
Default  Posted: 2:08 PM, April 26th (Friday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

It's all about the collapse of the illusions of civilization, structure, and worldview as one gets farther from the core ideals. HoD just uses the metaphor of distance and Empire to bring that out.

This is why I think siding with NCR in Fallout: New Vegas is the bad guy ending. It's all feel-good in the moment but long term regional stability and species survival is only really guaranteed through the Legion. Their worldviews are brutal and inhumane, but they reflect the best of their environment while NCR is the sickly leftovers of the society that destroyed itself.

Maybe that was too deep for a video game. Also, this is why I am going to side with Yes Man next time.


“Fate is a fickle bitch who dotes on irony.”

Posts: 7119 | Registered: May 2010 | From: USA
h0peless
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Member # 36697
Default  Posted: 2:13 PM, April 26th (Friday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Excellent catch. Anyone who hasn't read Heart of Darkness should go do it right now.

And anyone who wants to get in a bit deeper should read "King Leopold's Ghost" by Adam Hochschild immediately after.


Posts: 1323 | Registered: Sep 2012 | From: Arizona
wincing_at_light
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Member # 14393
Default  Posted: 4:22 PM, April 26th (Friday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

You will probably not be surprised to know that I've also written a novel that's a mash up of Heart of Darkness, the Fisher King legend cycle, and a bunch of infidelity stuff.

In outer space, of course.

[This message edited by wincing_at_light at 4:23 PM, April 26th (Friday)]


Machiavellian idiot savant

Posts: 6690 | Registered: Apr 2007 | From: Indiana
StillGoing
♂ Member
Member # 28571
Default  Posted: 5:33 PM, April 26th (Friday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

You will probably not be surprised to know that I've also written a novel that's a mash up of Heart of Darkness, the Fisher King legend cycle, and a bunch of infidelity stuff.

In outer space, of course.

OMG PHILIP DICK IS ALIVE


“Fate is a fickle bitch who dotes on irony.”

Posts: 7119 | Registered: May 2010 | From: USA
wincing_at_light
♂ Member
Member # 14393
Default  Posted: 6:28 PM, April 26th (Friday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I'm pretty sure I've been saying for years that I'm a Dick.


Machiavellian idiot savant

Posts: 6690 | Registered: Apr 2007 | From: Indiana
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