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I Can Relate     Print Topic    
User Topic: Betrayed Men- Part 9
numb&dumb
♂ Member
Member # 28542
Default  Posted: 3:40 PM, April 9th (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

How about she complements me. Adds to the total sum of my life.

That is not bad either. You try to hold a fine line where you do not derive so much of your self worth from another that you don't exist in the same way without them. Deriving your own self worth sets you up to be OK despite the outcome of your M.

Needing your W to be a part of that life and wanting your W to be a part of it is an important distinction.


Me-35 her-35

DS 1, DD 6
Dday 8/31/11. ONS that occurred 3 years earlier. Lied to for 3 years.

Every truth comes to light in a long enough timeline.


Posts: 2457 | Registered: May 2010
5454real
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Member # 37455
Default  Posted: 3:51 PM, April 9th (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Not to pick at scabs, but I think it's the best answer I can come up with to trynhard's diatribe. Every angle I came at that with led me to a completely codependent relationship based on his advice. Some of it is not bad, if you are doing it out of a sense of wanting to, not needing to.

I want to complement my wife's life, not complete it. That's up to her. Just as completing/fulfilling my life is up to me. If she is not a complement, why carry the dead weight? Moral obligation?


BH 50, WW 41
DS 23(Mine),SD 21,SS 19(Hers),DS 8 Ours, DGS 2 1/2
D=Day #1 5/04EA (Rugswept)
D-Day #2 3/10/12, TT til 3/13/12
Married 10yrs
“I have no love for a friend who loves in words alone.”
― Sophocles, Antigone

Posts: 2068 | Registered: Nov 2012 | From: midwest
StillGoing
♂ Member
Member # 28571
Default  Posted: 3:53 PM, April 9th (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

F03 is better than FONV. F0NV has more to it, but F03 had much better DLCs considering they were done before every game had DLCs. Bethesda's less involved role on FONV showed through.

It showed through for a better game experience! Hah!

I don't get the idea of someone else being a part of my identity. My wife is a distinct and different person, and we go through life together.

There was a point in time when I felt that, I wished I could go through life with her in a better way than we were, but accepted it wasn't going to happen, and it was, well, the word sad doesn't cover it but over the top explanations kind of ruin the sanctity of it for me. So, it was sad. The person who I wanted to share life with, wasn't going to be sharing it with me.

Here we are now, doing so, but if she exits my life, it will be sad, but I will still be who I am. Wishing I could share that with the woman here with me now.

Dunno if that makes any sense.


“Fate is a fickle bitch who dotes on irony.”

Posts: 7109 | Registered: May 2010 | From: USA
Ascendant
♂ Member
Member # 38303
Default  Posted: 4:12 PM, April 9th (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

That is not bad either. You try to hold a fine line where you do not derive so much of your self worth from another that you don't exist in the same way without them. Deriving your own self worth sets you up to be OK despite the outcome of your M.

Needing your W to be a part of that life and wanting your W to be a part of it is an important distinction.

Yeah, I think that nails it pretty much for me. Prior to the A and during the present, even at the lowest point I've felt since DDay, I've never once thought that without my wife and/or marriage I wouldn't be 'ok' in the long run. I know that there'd be some really shitty times, some really super sad and uncomfortable times, but I've always known that eventually, a year or two down the road, I'd be fine again. It's a weird dynamic in our marriage, I think, because my wife has historically found a way to push her partners away when the relationship became disappointing to her....but I feel like it's like that because a) she's never really happy with herself, and b) she assesses her self-worth and self-esteem by how much others want and/or value her. So when my actions indicate that I don't NEED (in the absolute strictest definition of the word) her for my happiness, then she feels less valuable and confuses that emotion for less wanted. I always felt as though my wife had one foot out the door, because she's so conflict avoidant, and had a history of running away from her problems instead of dealing with them.

Anyway, that was long-winded. To sum up: I'll know I'll be ok in the long run no matter what, but I really enjoy my wife's company and being married to her, in general, and want my son to have his mom around...so I've always fought extra hard to stay married when her instinct was to bolt. But it's weird for me to comprehend, because since so much of her self-esteem was based on our marriage/relationship, you'd think she'd really want to keep that intact....I guess? I dunno. I'm rambling.

Fallout: New Vegas was better, anyway. Hands down. I liked the more open feel of the world, and the interplay between factions, especially. Skyrim kills them both, though.


“Anyone who has a continuous smile on his face conceals a toughness that is almost frightening.”

Posts: 1604 | Registered: Jan 2013 | From: Illinois
wincing_at_light
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Member # 14393
Default  Posted: 4:35 PM, April 9th (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Skyrim kills them both, though.

+1

Of course, I'm running so many mods for Skyrim that I'm not sure what is the original game and what isn't anymore.


Machiavellian idiot savant

Posts: 6687 | Registered: Apr 2007 | From: Indiana
StillGoing
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Member # 28571
Default  Posted: 5:37 PM, April 9th (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I still haven't played Skyrim. On purpose. So I don't ostracize myself by ranting about it.


“Fate is a fickle bitch who dotes on irony.”

Posts: 7109 | Registered: May 2010 | From: USA
Ascendant
♂ Member
Member # 38303
Default  Posted: 5:44 PM, April 9th (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

The first time through, I just thought it was 'ok.' But the second time through, once I knew what I was doing? Ridiculous. Just killing guard after guard and dragging the bodies to hidden places is the best.


“Anyone who has a continuous smile on his face conceals a toughness that is almost frightening.”

Posts: 1604 | Registered: Jan 2013 | From: Illinois
TheCollector
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Member # 38890
Default  Posted: 7:00 PM, April 9th (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Forgive me if this doesn't belong here but its been almost 2 years now and I feel no better.. here goes... I had a good friend who I WORKED with. I invited over to dinner one night after work. Introduced him to my wife. (she has literally no friends) so I thought this would be good for her but didn't realise how well they would hit it off.. didn't raise a flag though cause she had been lonely for a while cause she lost all her friends to drugs and she doesn't accept that and cut ties. So anyway he started coming over and hanging out with both of us drinking beer playing video games and what not about every night. Well after a while I started getting tired of it and she made a big deal out of it so I let it continue. She started to become a person I didn't even know almost over night... Our relationship was getting worse by the day and I could see what was going on but she reassured me that it was fine and that she loved only me and I believed her...welll her flirtation with him got worse and worse...we fought more and more... Than.....she comes to me one night and admits that they kissed once......I was furious... We talked about possible divorce... She begged me and said how sorry she was.I forgave her and death-stared him every time I saw him but couldn't say anything cause I couldn't lose my job. After about 3 weeks of this she begged me to forgive him and that he was her only friend in forever.......I manned up for her and did it....biggest mistake of my life...well he started coming around again and well guess what.....my wife ends up pregnant..... Now let me explain how the night I found out went.... I come home from work and he is on his way over right behind me to hang out.my wife says she doesn't feel right and wants to go take a test. I say ok cause we had tried to no avail (her problems not mine). He gets to my house and and all the sudden I hear screaming and thudding coming from the back bathroom. I rush in there to see what's wrong. She is in the floor sobbing unable to even breathe. I go tell him he should probably leave that something was wrong...(another big mistake) the. She proceeded to tell me that she had had sex with him unprotected about 3 wekks ago. She had sex with me like 12 hours later too..........gross..... She says she doesn't know who's it was..... Breaks my heart....I fall to the floor sobbing like this man has never wept before...I leave the house.... Just to be alone a few minutes to collect myself... I start getting suicide texts from her so I come back to the house and scoop up all the pills she had out and flushed them. After she halfway explains herself she packs a small bag and starts walking down the road(she doesn't drive and her moms apartment was an hour drive away) ... Should have let her go then...but me being concerned for the child in her belly I call her mom and tell her that her daughter is walking down the road toward her house and that she might wanna go pick her up...so her mom picks her up and brings her back to my house and her mom hugs me then says she is gonna take her to the E.R. to do a blood test to make sure and wanted to know if I would go as well. So I reluctantly went. We sat there for hours and she begged me that whole time. Finally we went back and confirmed it. Went home and went to bed since I had to be back at work in like 4 hours....... That's how I got to find out I was gonna be a father and let me tell you that's not how you want to find out. I will continue this in another post below.



Infidelity really IS the gift that keeps on giving...

Posts: 62 | Registered: Apr 2013 | From: thecollector
TheCollector
♂ Member
Member # 38890
Default  Posted: 7:47 PM, April 9th (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

MY LIFE IN THE DAYS AFTER..... My wife continued to talk to him because he owed us $80 even after I told her to forget it. A few Saturdays later I had to work and while I was at work she had him stop by to pay that money and she let him back in my house! I called her on my break and she told me he was there and that they were just talking things out...well I flipped out obviously and told her to get that piece of ***** out of my house or I was on my way home right then and she had the nerve to get mad at me for being mad about it! In those few weeks we talked a lot and she on several occasions said she wasn't sure what she wanted. She said she loved me but missed his friendship. I now truly believe that she only stayed with me cause I had a better job and was a more responsible person for her and her baby...after a few weeks she started acting like her old self again and said that she was a sucker and he just used her and prayed on her neediness... And she couldnt believe she fell for it....sounds to me like passing blame...now she acts like she hates him....

MY LIFE AFTER....... Not only did I have to deal with this pain in a normal way but had to continue to hurt cause its been in my face in several ways every day since... I spent 9 months not knowing if the child was mine. (agonizing) I had to continue seeing him every day at work for about 7 months and couldnt do a thing about it cause I can't lose my job (agonizing) His apartment where it happened is on my works street and I must drive by the crime scene every day (also agonizing) I don't believe what she tells me...I know it was more than once and she is just minimizing it. She ruined the excitement of my first child and the excitement of her birth cause "what if" was all I could think about... I can't talk to her about it cause every time I do she just tries to leave. I don't know how to cope with all this and I feel it is getting worse.


Infidelity really IS the gift that keeps on giving...

Posts: 62 | Registered: Apr 2013 | From: thecollector
StillGoing
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Member # 28571
Default  Posted: 6:59 AM, April 10th (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Hey Collector. This place is fine to bring that shit to, you are among friends.

First, if you are the biodad then congrats man. It sucks that this is the way that went down, but you sound like you want to be a dad and it isn't the kid you are upset about, it's the circumstances - and while that feels like a yawning chasm of bubbling shit right now, it's something you can forge past.

If I misunderstood you then there are several guys around here dealing with OC who also can give you great advice.

That aside, first of all - if you are trying to R, which is sounds like, then this is a good post to read:

http://www.survivinginfidelity.com/forums.asp?tid=406548

Sometimes this stuff is just a dealbreaker. Even if your wife is wholly remorseful and wants to and does do everything in her power to make it right, you're not obligated to stay. Just make sure if you choose to leave you continue to be the honorable one, don't let this shit change who you are.

Make sure you're eating right, drinking enough, sleeping enough. Cut back or cut out the booze entirely if you're drinking, at least until you feel like you have your life on a better course. Counseling can help if you find a good counselor but a trip to the doc/psychiatrist to talk about some mild antidepressants might help too.

If you want reading material, the Healing Library on the left has a wealth of info and I advocate the book Not Just Friends by Shirley Glass.

A lot of the guys in this thread have posted tons and tons of great advice and ruminations on their situations, so just reading past posts could help out too.

Keep going, and work on yourself right now. You'll be okay.


“Fate is a fickle bitch who dotes on irony.”

Posts: 7109 | Registered: May 2010 | From: USA
trynhard
♂ Member
Member # 22698
Default  Posted: 8:49 AM, April 10th (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

In every case of a woman’s infidelity her solution was wrong. The right solution is for her to communicate her needs, accept what she can accept, or conflict to end the relationship. Unfortunately, life does not work that way. People are not always loyal or loving. That is a given in life. People are not always loving or loyal. It happens.

But society and governments let us down all the time. Evil exist. We try to pass laws to protect us but as much as governments try, they just cannot. It always boils down to personal responsibility to be succesful in life.

Our society fails us in marriage by redefining what it is and not enforcing laws we should have about marriage. Infidelity should be against the law. YES, I think infidelity should be a harsh punishable crime. The results to feelings are that painful and no different than a rape, murder, molestation.. etc.

Our society is teaching us that infidelity is not that bad… It is ok to chase good feelings you want or “deserve”. Yes a woman who cheats always gets to a place she thinks she deserves happiness. But avoiding conflicts is her fear. She gets in a mode where those things we did, things we said, how we behaved shuts them down. It is far too complicated and painful to deal with needs not being met. It becomes a “what they don’t know won’t hurt them” type of mentality.


Our egos and self esteem will end our grief. I am no longer in grief just like several men on this board. Just because your ego ended with your belief that you weren’t perfect, I was good enough, she can take me or leave me as I am, your W then decides things were not so bad, and you R does not mean there is a different ways to end grief. I understand that infidelity and relationships are very complex.

I get the fact that the self esteem is so bad after you discover your new identity that we all try hard to encourage others to get it back. It will come back if you change your belief. How you do that is your own choice. We say.. it is not our fault. No it is not. It is very complex. A behavior “A” does not always result in behavior “B” and different with each one of us. A common thing to think is that my W had an affair about sex.. I was too fat, to this or that, when that was not the case at all. You may think this because you grew up in a family that discouraged you and you have low self esteem. Perhaps about the way you look. But in fact, that was not the real reason at all. It could be for many reasons and some perhaps nothing to do with YOU or maybe a combination of things having to do with you and your W.


I ended my grief with taking the position that there were things I did before my wife got into this mode were she gave herself permission to cheat, although my faults never deserved or fit the punishment, I was not the quality like I could have been. My parents did not teach me how to be in a healthy M. They weren’t either, they divorced. Every man can end grief this way too. Take some personal responsibility for mistakes you made and be willing to change yourself. A far more attractive man. My way may be different than they way several of you men ended your grief. If you take the position to be a far better man in every way, quality in every way this will build up your self esteem when you have success reciprocated. You be the quality man to the best of your ability endlessly looking to be better you have confidence when you execute. Your W will see it. You take on the challenge of conflict with courage and do it in such a way you have strength. Your ego will improve know you did it the right way verses the wrong way of yelling.. closing down a person, anger, etc…

Which brings me to aesir and my response to you.

I do understand trauma and the things that the pros do to end that grief. Let me address the rape analogy. And most rapes can be prevented too. And it has nothing to do with a woman looking attractive… in the sense of beauty. Just because a rape happens does not make it right nor does cheating. But I taught my daughter not to place herself in that position. Think DD.. Know who you are with. Stick with your friends, lie to get out of situation, trust your gut, Mentally prepare if you are taken by a rapist, know how about fighting that man.. grab his balls with twist and turn…shout. run.. Keep personal information private, don’t accept drinks from someone you don’t know.. things like that. Protect yourself from evil. And guess what? Even then bad things happen…. Then you must learn and believe to accept that life is not always fair.

You give me another great example of what people say to shut you down. “you are suffering from the delusion of control.” Do you do this to your wife too? Assuming you are married. You shut a woman down she will not feel safe enough to be open whether she is right or wrong in her thinking… and that becomes a critical factor in the decision process for a woman who cheats.


See aesir, you cannot push me under a rock because I don’t fear you. I have not diagnosed you, labeled you, said anything but recommended taking some personal responsibility for things that happened to you an I assume you try and shut me down because you don’t like my message or maybe I am not making my message clear enough. . I share what I have spent money on to inform the fine men who may not have my resources. I expect the same courtesy. And I do agree with you, there are irrational people including women in this world.


We learn from life lessons.

And the following is a different way of thinking about ending your grief. That’s all.

After you discover your new reality, you new identity, you are in shock and trauma. It then becomes a point of decision.

Key question will have any effect on your choice
- Will she stop her affair?
- Can you both work through the reasons?
- Can he break the pattern of his behavior?
- Will the decision affect your quality of life?
- How does your life stage effect the decision?
- Are your fears keeping you in the marriage?
- Can the love in your M be strengthened?
- What impact on your kids?
- Are you putting your own life at risk of AIDS?
End your M if you must. It may not be your choice either. But a very key question must be answered. The REASON.


My post is mainly about R but no matter a man should look hard at himself to discover the behaviors YOU do that influence another person’s decision. A key part of all Reconciliation is working through the reasons. This is exactly what all the pros say, not just me. If you are not going to look at yourself before dday, then most likely will end up in the exact same place. A common consensus is that a new M must now begin. I take that step and take personal responsibility for myself. A new man must emerge.

If you just happen to be that great man who just happened to be married to some who cheated.. fine.. end your grief that way. Maybe you D your wife and that brings closer and ends grief. That ends grief. A man can just happen to change without knowing to now fill whatever hole was missing in the M and that can end grief. A man can be assertive too, believe he was not so perfect and change by intent and accept that bad things happen in life and that end grief.

Stilllovingher.. I am ok with your belief of..

it comes across as "earning" her faithfulness. I dont charge for mine, sure as hell aint gonna "buy" someone else's... .reciprocity, ya dig?

In all relationships you do earn faithfulness, it is no different then earning trust. And you earn it in many ways. It does not mean you always get what you deserved to earn because society has a strong influence too. We are the one’s who got cheated on and if we think all was fine, and we cannot be honest with ourselves, then that is a set up for a second failure. Heck, even when you select your next mate, you had better be more attractive and learn a few things. Odd are not in your favor you pick a quality woman. You had better know what one is too. In Retrouvaille, a woman told her story. She was cheated on in her first M only to cheat on her H in her second. She felt all those things our wives felt.

After spending time listening to cheating woman, Most all these women cheated had FOO that fell into these histories.. There was been too much indulgence during childhood, or not enough love and attention.

There is always a FOO reason. You know the ole slogan.. the apple don’t fall far from the tree.

My wife had too much indulgence as a child and then you throw in a man, me, who failed to give enough attention.. Wham.. a cheater. It’s way too common. It is a fact in our society driven by many factors. It is not what is supposed to happen but it did. People just don’t do the right things in life. You cannot control what others do but you do control what you do.

Most all women get married and life is not exactly what they thought. The cheating woman’s minds took them to a place where they were they all were not happy in their marriage. No different for me. My W grew to be NOT be happy with me.

1) A woman’s mindset. It is a notion that happiness was something that she could acquire from an external source. She is bored and/or lonely; feeling underappreciated, neglected, or ignored.
2) A Woman doesn’t open up; She has an intimacy disorder
3) A Women does not know how to conflict; revenge affair;
4) A woman’s passion died. Dies from She craves intimacy; She never feels fully loved and appreciated; not enough sex;


And there are a whole bunch of women that fall into the above. A betrayed man’s expectations now should be pay attention to above women. And guess what? A cheater is in that mode of thinking like above.. This was your woman… or the kind of woman you select.

We men are being conditioned by all the feminist to think a different way. IMO, This new aged thinking fails us. We must lead our families and our women. There are critically important marriage relationship concepts, ideas, strategies, and tactics a man must learn to have the most loving, happy, intimate and sexual marriage. And they must be part of your being. Yes, a man can lead his woman into a more flexible, more trusting and more accepting marriage. This nothing new and goes back to the beginning of written times. From man came woman ya know. There might be a whole lot more behind those words than what you might think. If you are able to execute these things then this will build back your ego. It is your W’s decision to figure it out on her future mistakes. We accept the things we cannot change. But my message is that we should not accept us men not changing. IF you were that perfect, fine don’t change.

5454real, I know I am not the best writer and working on that but what is co-dependant about that attitude?


wincing_at_light.. You are right, there are no absolutes. There are a small percentage of women who continue to marry and will fail over and over until they finally get it. It’s not the majority. Inauthentic?

to become someone they have no desire to be in order to please someone else.
But this is all part of any interpersonal relationship isn’t it? There are things I do for my wife to please her not necessarily for me. Don’t you? Today, they are just me. Example, for some reason, some woman I know before a party gets anxiety. The house must be spotless, everything must be in order…etc.. I just do it because I know she gets all flustered if I don’t.

I do this to be attractive, not codependent. I am not manipulating her. It is always her decision to give reciprocity. When you are making the choice to be attractive by being a quality man, your woman will be attracted to you. If she behaves is such a way she never give reciprocity, you must lead her. It is done sometimes with conflicts or by example. And either she is going to come around as you add more pressure with her own choice, or not. Let’s hope it is not, because if it is a not, Yes, you are going or should be a winner. But you had better know and be on the right side of the law. And not be ignorant to knowing quality. It is no different than your job. You do the task or get fired. You expect your employee to do the job or you fire them. This is the way a relationship works. Any behaviors outside that always faces consequences.

Here is a classic situation. One of my good friends was married to a woman who’s sexuality was not match to his. Of course, when they first met, she was very sexual. He told me on his wedding night, she was too tired to make love. Imagine that? That’s what everyone is supposed to do right. This started before they even married.. In his marriage, his wife never initiated sex.. Never! However, she would tell him that once she got going, she would enjoy it. As time goes on, his expectation was she should love him by her initiating sex, trying different things, etc.. He became frustrated and he began to feel unloved. He communicated to her a few times by telling her that maybe he should seek sex outside the marriage. He then began to fantasize about women at work. Let the flirting begin. Tensions grow and so does the pressure he places on his wife. Pressure in a negative non-attractive way. He told me at the time he had done all he could do.

His mind was now set to be the snake charmer. He even told me that he stopped all sex initiation. Depression set in. We both vented and shared at this time. He knew what I was going through. I told him if he pursued this married woman, (who BTW was telling him how great he was, and she was at a point telling him her H was not paying her attention), he might end up dead because I was in full mode of wanting to kill the OM. I think he didn’t eat the apple because he feared death!

So he proceeds with D and gets it. Then his W immediately moves in with her BF she supposedly had during the S process. He happens to meet and date a woman who worked in the same office as his x-wife. Guess what? Yep, she was having an A in the last 12 months before he filed D. All the women in the office were telling his W to just leave my friend. The pressures of infidelity by the new age evil woman. Some were saying Go for it! Another man in her office was a snake charmer and supposedly a great guy. Let’s see? His W didn’t want to have sex with him but found a co-worker she did.


So now I am in therapy after his D. It focused manly on how to change me so I would be attractive. I started to share everything being taught to me. Come to find out, my friend really never knew how to romance his wife. He was not too masculine either nor a leader like a man is supposed to be. A healthy conflict was never anything he knew how to handle because his mother never taught him. He grew up without a father and had become the new aged feminized man. Boy, did he tell me some ugly things he confessed saying and doing to his W. He was the neediness sex kind of man too. Sex was too valuable to him. Porn taught him some unrealistic things too. He even told men the things he said to his wife gave her thoughts he was cheating with that woman he fantasized about.


He and I have talked about it. Imagine had he stepped up romancing her. Laying a make out kiss a few times a week. Let say sometimes, he just cuddled and was not so sex needy.. Started holding her hand more and set up more good feelings scenario and situations. Let suppose my friend would have started to affirm his wife is far more ways, different ways.. Does it make sense that good thoughts bring good feelings? He fell into no different mode than me. My friend is happy he has started a new life but he says he now regrets some of the things he did.

It’s hard for me to imagine all men were so perfect when a W cheats. or they were that good before your W got into that mode she stopped respecting you, attracted to another, etc. I can take it like a man. Can you? Pick yourselves up bothers and know true, we did not deserve it because a healthy woman would have known how to correct us. They didn’t. Plus, we ignored the odds in the security of the “I do” We shouldn’t have nor should we have not stopped romancing our wife like we did when courting. I didn’t because of who I was growing up but I am ok with the fact I did not know how to conflict, be more accepting, be more affirming, be more whatever it was in your own situation. SO what, I didn’t know. I said things and did things that shut her down. I did many things not so right. I know now and can take pride in the fact I do know far more. I accept my role and I end my grief knowing that. It’s just a different way to think about ending grief.

So what are the solutions men? Pick another woman and hope you get lucky? Were the stakes not high enough? All that pain and money that comes with failed marriages.. would you flip a coin 50/50 and risk your car?

I give you one solution to end your grief that is all.. and it is free to you. My solution is accept that there is a reason behind every woman’s infidelity and accept it. You accept it, pick yourself up knowing bad things happen in life. You change a improve who you are and should you face any woman who cannot be quality, you have courage to do what is right for you. You make that woman no longer part of your life. If you believe that no woman is going to tread on me, no woman is going to bring me down, I am on this earth to be the best man possible, a quality man, a masculine man and make each day that to the best of my ability, your pride, your ego, you get strength. I don’t need any woman to make me happy. One is welcome to join me in my life’s journey because I am most attractive. And the one woman who is attracted to me is going to get a damn fine man.. because I now know what it means to be attractive.

Who teaches us this stuff. The boy at high school? Our parents? Who?
Generally, a man once taught me there are 6 kinds of men.
1) Men who already knows everything. He will not shift his ways from knowing to doing.
2) Men who are afraid of conflict. This man will avoid all the bad things and only focus on the good.. He is too nice
3) Men who are lazy. Too lazy to improve themselves
4) Men who blame others and never look at themselves first.
5) Men who resent things that happen to them and find fault with everything around them.
6) Men who want to be better, improve their lives, look to be quality in every way, and always seeking knowledge so their own lives will be better.
Who are you?
I am # 6.
I can tell FacePunched he can get his pride, ego back by changing himself and that is fair for me to do. He can learn how to be a far better man because his honesty about his behaviors shows me he does need to improve on his own masculinity, his own behaviors. I don’t mean tears are not masculine. I am not trying to bust his chops, I want to encourage him to leave behind his past with things he learned. It does not mean his wife will change given her state of mind. Should he decide to be a far better man, he will look at all he does and be a man who knows, hey, I am pretty good. I am far better and far more worthy than what I was and I can take what life throws at me. I have the ability to get what I want in life because I am that good. Sometimes, life is just evil. But I accept this evil and make it no longer part of my life because I will earn what I get. I have earned what I got in the past but that is not what I go get into the future. His train is leaving the station to be quality where someone will greatly appreciate him and NEVER risk losing him. That is who he deserves. Be attractive and let her be attracted to you. That is not codependent. Either they are going to like you or not. If she’s not, that is ok too because if you are very attractive, women will be all over you even if you have a pot belly. It could be his W, it may not be.

You can tell him that his W is broken. I can too and she was. Evil happens. What is your solution beyond that? Let a lost woman do all the heavy lifting?

[This message edited by trynhard at 8:50 AM, April 10th (Wednesday)]


Posts: 2636 | Registered: Feb 2009 | From: Indiana
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Default  Posted: 9:14 AM, April 10th (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

tryn, you keep saying these things over and over. Why? Rephrasing it doesn't make it mean something different. Like this:

You be the quality man to the best of your ability endlessly looking to be better you have confidence when you execute. Your W will see it. You take on the challenge of conflict with courage and do it in such a way you have strength. Your ego will improve know you did it the right way verses the wrong way of yelling.. closing down a person, anger, etc…

"Your wife will see it." No, she won't. If she's in an affair she probably isn't going to see it because she doesn't fucking want to. You are wrong, plain and simple.

Becoming a better version of yourself is excellent advice, but not because it's going to guarantee some kind of magical marriage result.

ou give me another great example of what people say to shut you down. “you are suffering from the delusion of control.”

You see this as a shut down because you absolutely refuse to look at any other perspective than your own. You have decided that you are absolutely 100% right in all things and therefore every single person here is wrong because they disagree with you. From that position you launch out and decide that, rather than the very well established response given possibly being something to investigate, you need to correct it. Simply put, once again, you are dead wrong.

aesir isn't trying to push you under a rock. He very rationally explained his take on it. Your response demonstrates that you *do* feel threatened because rather than take some time to consider what was said, you spun it into him attacking you - which is what "pushing you under a rock" means - which really only follows to a single logical conclusion - you fear stepping outside the cave you've carved for yourself there.

You aren't being shut down because we won't come hide in your cave. You're being invited to come chill with the gang by the fire outside.

We men are being conditioned by all the feminist to think a different way. IMO, This new aged thinking fails us. We must lead our families and our women. There are critically important marriage relationship concepts, ideas, strategies, and tactics a man must learn to have the most loving, happy, intimate and sexual marriage. And they must be part of your being. Yes, a man can lead his woman into a more flexible, more trusting and more accepting marriage. This nothing new and goes back to the beginning of written times. From man came woman ya know. There might be a whole lot more behind those words than what you might think.

This is a bunch of backward thinking, ignorant slop bordering on religious and political proselytizing as far as I am concerned. This is where your constant badgering becomes insulting, because you push your way as the only right way.

Frankly I think treating your spouse like she's some mindless house drone fit to cook, clean, fuck and herd kids is the social fail. It's failed us for several thousand years, blaming "feminists" for that shit is more blame shifting bullshit. There was no magical fairy tale time where people cheated less because men were Large And In Charge. That magical fairy tale time was men fucking who they wanted when they wanted and throwing women out of tower windows with impunity. If you want to own women like horses you still can, move to the middle east.

You can tell him that his W is broken. I can too and she was. Evil happens. What is your solution beyond that? Let a lost woman do all the heavy lifting?

Stop already. You know full fucking well nobody is pushing that bullshit.

It's his choice to help her. It's her responsibility to fix herself, the same as it is for a man to own his shit and be a man. Yeah, she needs to do all her own lifting because otherwise she's going to remain a weak and broken creature that never exercise the strength and courage necessary to be someone of self worth. Who wants to be married to that? If you just want someone to fuck and clean your house then a whore and a maid are probably a lot cheaper.


“Fate is a fickle bitch who dotes on irony.”

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Default  Posted: 9:19 AM, April 10th (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Trynhard-

A lot of stuff in there...I disagree with some of it, still...but I'm also going to give credit when there's good stuff...

I am on this earth to be the best man possible, a quality man, a masculine man and make each day that to the best of my ability, your pride, your ego, you get strength. I don’t need any woman to make me happy. One is welcome to join me in my life’s journey because I am most attractive. And the one woman who is attracted to me is going to get a damn fine man.. because I now know what it means to be attractive.

I agree with this.

There is nothing wrong with changing yourself to suit your own desires and needs....and I'd even go so far as to say that if you're a single dude, changing yourself with the goal of becoming more attractive as a potential mate is not terrible either, provided you're not changing yourself to fit the ideal for one specific person.

Even within the context of marriage, changing yourself to better fit your own ideal concept of self is cool, and probably admirable. As long as your not doing it by completely making yourself over in the image of your wife's ideal candidate in the hopes that she won't cheat on you again, you're golden. Of if you are, she better be doing the same thing.

To me, it's like wearing one nice suit for the rest of your life. Within the confines of marriage, it's ok to maybe take it in a little here and there, change the tie, mess with the lapels, etc., for your wife....but don't do it to the point that you don't recognize what you're wearing, you know? And if you feel at some point you wanna completely switch suits...? Cool. You can try on other ones, see if they fit, and go back to the old one if you want, because the only complete approval you need is your own....but you can certainly appreciate your wife's input....just don't get stuck wearing a suit that doesn't fit just because your tailor likes it on you....because they may find someone it fits better, nah mean?


“Anyone who has a continuous smile on his face conceals a toughness that is almost frightening.”

Posts: 1604 | Registered: Jan 2013 | From: Illinois
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Default  Posted: 9:39 AM, April 10th (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Stillgoing-

Frankly I think treating your spouse like she's some mindless house drone fit to cook, clean, fuck and herd kids is the social fail. It's failed us for several thousand years, blaming "feminists" for that shit is more blame shifting bullshit. There was no magical fairy tale time where people cheated less because men were Large And In Charge. That magical fairy tale time was men fucking who they wanted when they wanted and throwing women out of tower windows with impunity.

Agree. It's awesome to be cool, calm, collected, and confident...but it's cool to be like that because you're self-assured about who and what you are. This subject irks me, has ALWAYS irked me, especially when I was younger, because it seemed like assholes ALWAYS got the pretty girls. As time went on, and I dated a few pretty ones, I began to realize that those pretty girls...? Many of them are fucking trainwrecks from the neck up....because you damn-near have to be, in order to be in a relationship with someone that treats you like shit.
And because I had a little KISA in me, I tried to 'save' a few of those girls, only to realize how fucked in the head they are.

*On a side note, I often wonder if really beautiful women are sometimes the MOST screwed up because every single lecherous guy older than 15 has been trying to screw them with impunity since they were 12. Getting turned into a sex object that young could be scarring, I'd imagine. When society at large has been telling you that your real value is related to your groin, breasts, waist, and mouth, is that really super shocking when women act that way?*

Bottom line for me? Treating my wife like she needs constant placation, supervision, and cajoling is insulting to her as an individual with her own brain (it's true, it's true), as well as a waste of my time...instead of supervising her, I could be doing cool stuff with her where we both act as equally invested partners.

[This message edited by FacePunched at 9:41 AM, April 10th (Wednesday)]


“Anyone who has a continuous smile on his face conceals a toughness that is almost frightening.”

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wert
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Default  Posted: 9:55 AM, April 10th (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Bottom line for me? Treating my wife like she needs constant placation, supervision, and cajoling is insulting to her as an individual with her own brain (it's true, it's true), as well as a waste of my time...instead of supervising her, I could be doing cool stuff with her where we both act as equally invested partners.

Yep, but for me the piece that is missing the bi-directional support. I am not nearly as independent as I think I am. Don't get me wrong, I'm the shit, but I screw up, need support and help from others. I also believe that there are few people in one's life (mine at least) that I can really open up to and expose fears, joy and pain with on a level that is helpful to me. I want my partner, W, to be the person and I want to be that person for her. We are not just machines moving around doing shit that is cool, although that is great stuff also. I am M'd because I want that connection, support and bond. I want it with my W. I want her to be worthy of that and I to be worthy of hers. Her A fucked that all up.

There is a dangerous line between co-dependency and bi-directional support. For me, a caring and sharing M lives on that line.

take it easy...



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Default  Posted: 10:17 AM, April 11th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

There is a dangerous line between co-dependency and bi-directional support. For me, a caring and sharing M lives on that line.

I'd like to dig deeper into that. I am wrestling with that concept heavily at the moment. I realize I have some codependency issues when it comes to relationships. I'd like to cut that cancer out of my life. I have been thinking of late that the best type of M for me is one where both partners can be that support for one another without the expectation of support being a guarantee. In other words, I'm responsible for meeting my own physical and emotional needs. If I get M'd then I have additional support, but ultimately I am the one who bears the responsibility to myself of meeting those needs. I have some serious FOO issues related to finding the right balance of intimacy without sacrificing mature emotional autonomy.

Hope that made sense. Thoughts?


Let him that would move the world first move himself. - Socrates

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Default  Posted: 10:45 AM, April 11th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I have been thinking of late that the best type of M for me is one where both partners can be that support for one another without the expectation of support being a guarantee. In other words, I'm responsible for meeting my own physical and emotional needs.

Agreed. I started out my relationship with my wife as a KISA, with the "I can fix her, if she lets me love her, I can help her with her issues" mentality. As time went on, and I started to realize that, "No, I can't." My wife took this change within me as an indication that I was angry at her, or didn't care. She would claim "Oh, you changed, you used to listen to me and be loving..." And to some degree she's right...I did change. I got tired of being told what I was doing wrong, and not being informed how to fix it...so over the course of years, I just didn't care to listen, because I knew where it was going....which only reinforced the "You don't care" narrative.

Another thing I struggle with is the concept of "all feelings are valid." I don't mean that I struggle with it as a concept, but more as a practice. So when someone's feelings are borne of a flawed premise, I have a hard time not saying so. It's really, really hard for me to sit and listen to anyone express their feelings without pointing out that the assumption that their feelings are coming from is not correct.

I am a terrible listener, I guess? Always have been. Any thoughts on how to work on this?


“Anyone who has a continuous smile on his face conceals a toughness that is almost frightening.”

Posts: 1604 | Registered: Jan 2013 | From: Illinois
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Default  Posted: 1:24 PM, April 11th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Another thing I struggle with is the concept of "all feelings are valid." I don't mean that I struggle with it as a concept, but more as a practice. So when someone's feelings are borne of a flawed premise, I have a hard time not saying so. It's really, really hard for me to sit and listen to anyone express their feelings without pointing out that the assumption that their feelings are coming from is not correct.

I am a terrible listener, I guess? Always have been. Any thoughts on how to work on this?

You don't have to agree with someone to listen to them, or even sympathize.

A good way to start hearing someone is to repeat what they are saying back to yourself in your head, that takes away control from your inner monologue.

I have a hard time not immediately trying to find a solution to shit. Sometimes you just need to be there and let her know she's been heard.


“Fate is a fickle bitch who dotes on irony.”

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MC_Jack
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Default  Posted: 3:54 PM, April 11th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

It's really, really hard for me to sit and listen to anyone express their feelings without pointing out that the assumption that their feelings are coming from is not correct.

^^^ Big issue for me too. I have a top 10 list of cognitive distortions... this one is on the list as "emotional reality". It is my WW's favorite along with negative filtering (finding the one negative detail and dwelling on it).


I am not a marriage counselor. I chose "MC Jack" in the spirit of a handle like "MC Hammer" or Young MC"...there is a lot of 'rapping' here, no? At the time I did not know what MC stood for on this site. Duh.

Posts: 792 | Registered: Mar 2012 | From: West Coast of Hopa-hopa-land
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Default  Posted: 4:06 PM, April 11th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Sometimes you just need to be there and let her know she's been heard.

^^ And that is hard when the issue she is talking about is you...ie ME. I tended to try and change myself or do things differently to appease her when I think what I should have done is let her figure out what she was going to do about it.


Let him that would move the world first move himself. - Socrates

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