I am not strong. I lost hope. He might as well be dead if he is a narc. I am devastated. I always believed he could get better. Everyone says with a narc, give up hope and run. So I am.
What part of that makes you weak, Kalli? None of it. I lost hope, gave up and ran, too. But what you aren't seeing is that maintaining NC IS strong. That is not an easy thing to do, when they are doing everything in their power to keep their hold over you. You just aren't looking at it the right way. If you come out of this with yourself intact, you have won. That is no small feat, given what an N is all about.
Keep your head up and give yourself credit, Kalli. You are strong. You are. You ended it before the wedding, which is more than I did. I had warning signs up the wazoo, and still I married mine. 25 years I lost, and I can't get those back. My kids were hurt by him, I nearly died... No, you are strong. Believe me, if I'd been more like you and less like a scared little girl, none of this would be happening to me.
Never doubt your strength.
I am devastated.
Hugs, honey. Huge, huge hugs. There is nothing that can ever compare to the devastation of seeing the NPD without rose colored glasses for the first time. You actually are strong~ for realizing this, for facing it, for researching paths to health, and for taking steps on that path. Be gentle with yourself in this time, you are your champion.
I took time, lots of it, to grieve the man that never existed, the one I held vigil for and hope for his return. Grieve, honey. Cry. Mourn. It is in the truth that we are finally free, and you are doing a good job paving your way to health.
You are stronger than you ever imagined, never doubt that about you again.
After coming down from today's hearing, I spent some time thinking about things. I feel sorry for STBX, (not as in wanting to take him back,) but for all he's lost - his family, his health, and soon, it seems, even his life. He looks really bad. I mean really, really bad. He is dying, there is no question left in my mind.
Here's where I need help. I don't want my son to have regrets later in life that he left things unsaid. I am afraid he will have the same regrets I do, and I don't want that for him. You can never take back the time that was lost, and if his dad dies without him ever having his chance to say what he needs to, it could affect him for the rest of his life.
So what I'm thinking is that it's time to make the next counseling session about prepping him to see his dad one last time, or even twice, if he can do it. I want this meeting to happen IN the counselor's office, with her as a protector and mediator. (If there wasn't a PO, I'd even want to be there.) But as I said, I want prep work done, so he can work through what he wants to say, as well as knowing not to expect STBX to take responsibility or even apologize. I want a very controlled situation where my son can have closure. I don't think STBX has long at all.
What do you all think, and what suggestions would you make for this situation? I'm counting on you to help me do the right thing for my precious son. I know STBX won't really get anything out of it, and counselor will control it and make sure DS feels safe. But I don't know if this is a smart idea or just fear of regret for my son.
[This message edited by SoHurt at 11:14 AM, April 27th (Saturday)]
I agree that you don't want to set your son up for a lifetime of regrets. I think it speaks highly of your compassionate nature and your parenting skills that you are wanting to do this. I hope your son is open to it and that the therapist will agree to conduct this family session.
Everybody, soon or late, sits down to a banquet of consequences.
~Robert Louis Stevenson
I am all for putting this in place for DS. Do you think NPD will show up?
My X can be the nicest guy on the planet, but he can also be the biggest dick. If he got wind of me setting this up for DD, he would bail or maybe even worse go and have DD feeling worse than she already does regarding their relationship.
I truly do not believe closure is possible with some forms of NPD.
Protect your DS as much as you can... I don't know if I would do it.. I hate that in myself, but I just don't know.
You are my hero !!
I would talk to DS and tell him what is going on. Let him ask questions. Your idea going through the IC is an excellent one to make him feel safe with STBX in the same room.
He's defintely old enough to be part of the decision but I also know the horrible abuse he has experienced from the POS.
Maybe an IC session after you talk for him to ask questions and give his thoughts to the IC. Then if all are in agreement, schedule IC for you, him, and POS.
Big Hugs, you know who to call..
[This message edited by gma56 at 8:34 PM, April 27th (Saturday)]
Does your narc put paintbrushes with paint on them in ziploc bags, ostenstibly to be used later, but they never actually get used? So what we end up with is a bunch of (good, expensive) paintbrushes with dried paint on them in ziploc bags. Anyone else?
I have so much else to ask/write, but my brain can't wrap around it yet - need more time to think...
I mean, why keep all that? The house isn't even that color, so why did we need to keep that exterior paint all these years? The stuff in the cans is probably already dried up by now, right? Probably was 10 years ago, right? Why keep enormous buckets of primer? I wrote down the brands & formulas used for the interior rooms, why do we need to keep a dozen partially-used cans of various colors in the...
...yes, I'm going to say it...
...in the garage?????
I truly do not believe closure is possible with some forms of NPD.
I believe this too. But only if you expect remorse, or empathy, or understanding from the NPD. In my experience, you can have closure by simply loving who they are. It helps too, being deeply grateful you no longer live with them.
His office was just as bad, it took me three solid weeks to clean it out. I was working at it 8-10 hrs a day after he left me. I found his stash of condoms that didn't have any missing.
Not because he wasn't having sex with others either.
I could write a book what a passive NPD looks like.
The GARAGE! We live in CA so no basements but our three car garage had only walking space about 1 ft and stacked to to the top. Last car I parked in there was my 1985 corvette back in 1987, 1 yr after we built it.
My current ex has taken his social pages up and back down again twice in the last couple of days. I am utterly baffled and feel very disturbed at his antics. I don't understand it. From what I see that woman from his golf team is detaching, BUT we all know how this stuff can go underground. I think he is stalking her a bit. Seeing these things in the past would typically have set me off to say something and complain about the attempts to get that woman's attention.
Now I am feeling the same feelings, but still not saying a word. I guess I watch him in order to keep track of where he is, it's like having a wasp flying around the house that you are allergic too and can't quite get to go out a door or window.
I also feel a lot of sadness and depression. I am not over the love, it seems, I still feel shocked, but accept that *I* can't make the relationship better and I can't help him. I have been reading a lot about co -dependanace and boundries and see where I went wrong with this guy.
He is completely absent except for the wierd attention seeking behaviors. They make me want to tell him CALM DOWN!. Of course I realize it gives him what he wants and me nothing at all.
I try to console myself that IF he is NOT a narc and just seriously effed up from all the crap he has dealt with and caused, the BEST thing for both of us is to be apart and allow people to process and heal and recover who they need to be in life.
I don't know about closure with a narc, I was just thinking of the son and how later when he is older and understands, it might hurt him deeply to have not seen his dad one last time, knowing that it might be the last time.
My natural father was a horrible man. He died suddenly and I didn't see him for 12 years at all before he did die. Even though he was awful, I had always believed there was time to see him at least once and find some peace. Other people may not feel that way, though.
[This message edited by Kalliopeia at 8:33 AM, April 28th (Sunday)]
The therapist is more than willing to do this kind of session, as she's suggested it before. In fact, before she would write her recommendation to the court, she insisted on contacting STBX and giving him a chance to see her. He obviously refused to answer the phone, though, because she never heard from him. He's very paranoid about numbers he doesn't recognize, and probably didn't believe it was really DS's therapist if she left a message.
DS has been very resistant to the idea of seeing his dad in the past, but with my new insight, may change his mind. It's been a busy weekend with sleepovers, so when things settle down, I'm going to have this discussion with him. I have no clue as to whether he will agree or even feel a need to, but I really don't want him to feel like he never got that one last goodbye. As someone who never had that chance with my own parents and grandparents, I know the pain of it. There's no going back, and he shouldn't have to live with that pain.
I know STBX won't feel what DS and I would like him to feel, or say the right things. I know DS will understand that, too, because he's perceptive particularly where STBX is concerned. He's had enough broken promises, lies and manipulation from him to know he won't be doing this for STBX, but for his own well-being.
Thanks for the positive notes about me and my parenting. I often feel like a horrible failure, raising kids in the kind of crap an N dishes out. But I also know that my N did everything he could to throw me off the scent and scare me into believing his lies about our life, so I am working on stopping that thought about myself when it comes up. I asked DS last week why he thought I was such a great mom. He said, "Because you are." I asked, "But why?" His answer was, "Because you really love me."
[This message edited by SoHurt at 12:18 PM, April 28th (Sunday)]
You sound like a great mum.
Is there a diagnosis/prognosis that I missed somewhere? or is it your feeling that he is dying?
For years I thought my X had something very wrong with him. Each time I saw him his skin tone was ashen/grey/sunken eyes.. skin hanging off him.. almost to the point of looking like a very ill 75yo man. He was in his late 40's then. Kids dropped hints like he was going for testing, doc's etc. I thought (his sister and parents were also worried) he was dying. He certainly looked like death was around the corner.
It turned out he had health issues.. some major. He spent about a year figuring out what those health issues were and another year to figure out medications, etc.
He is back to looking like he is only 10 years older than he is. And still doing his best to have someone else take responsibility for his actions.
the point I am trying to make, if your X doesn't have a diagnosis... (and If he were my X I wouldn't accept his word or his lawyers) I would want confirmation from his medical doc before I would believe it. -but that is just me.
I am worried that if his dying does not happen within a certain time frame, will this meeting hurt your son's relationship with you?
And yes you are the best mom... you know your kids the best, you take the time to understand them and to raise them to fly on their own.
[This message edited by Kajem at 8:43 AM, April 29th (Monday)]
I don't have proof of a diagnosis. I've asked for it before, when we were doing the CS hearings, but still nothing. (Which, of course, makes me think it's a lie.) It is on the list of things I'm asking for before trial. I'm basing this decision on what I saw, and a gut feeling. Of course, as with your X, Kajem, this could all be a major overstatement from him, and I'm aware of that. I don't think it would change how DS and I relate or anything if it turned out not to be true. My DS knows that I am trying to do what's best for him, and if STBX is lying, he would likely focus his anger on him rather than me.
However, it may all be a moot point. I spoke with DS last night, and explained as much as I could, then asked if he would consider the session with his dad. His answer was a stony faced, flat no. Now, DS only gets that look when there's absolutely no hope of changing his mind. So we talked a bit about it. He said he has absolutely nothing to say to his dad.
Later, I asked him why he is so adamant about refusing to see his dad. I said he never had to worry about my backing his decisions, ever. I just wondered what made it such a never-gonna-happen kind of thing. I said I had the feeling that there's something he's not telling me about what went on with his dad. Suggested that, if it's too hard to say to me, that he write it down. Point being, if I'm going to help, I have to know, and that if there's something bad he's not saying, it would help to know so I could explain to the judge for the PO and the custody/visitation issues. He agreed that was a good idea, but said there is nothing he hasn't told me.
But I heard that from his brothers, too. Then years later, found out some horrible truths. So I'm scared about this, because I really feel something happened. It's not like my DS to be so stubbornly silent unless it's something so personal, so bad, that he thinks I can't handle it or will get angry or something. I'm really worried about this. I ended up telling him we'd have to talk to his therapist, so she could give him some perspective on it that I may have missed.
So that's where that sits. I don't think anything is going to move him to change his mind. When he gets that look on his face, there's no way you can make him move.
I know that face. My DD (22) has it when it comes to her father. Growing up she was his shadow, He would start something and all 4 kids would be involved, eventually 3 of them left and she would still be by his side. She adored him and he has abused her heart, abandoned her, drawn her back in.. abandoned her .. the cycle continued till last year. While she was 8 months pregnant, single and scared for her baby, he cut off her phone service. He was also very busy turning his parents against her. He was coerced (by other DDs) to visit mother and baby in the hospital. DD reached out to him and invited him to the christening.. he didn't show. She is done.
Her reasoning, why do I want him in my daughters life to do to her what he did to me. She doesn't deserve that! My response is.. neither did you.
She is truly done.. it has been a year since she has even had a small conversation with him. And she tells me the longer the time in between contact.. makes him dead to her.. she did her mourning for the relationship she could have with him... he threw it (and her) away.
She is protecting her child as best she can, and herself in the process.
I don't think she will change her mind regarding talking to him.. She is an adult... and she has valid reasons for feeling this way.
But it hurts to watch it play out.