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User Topic: Long Term Affairs - Part 30
rockbottom2468
♀ Member
Member # 32496
Default  Posted: 1:32 PM, February 7th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I posted this in questions for the ws's...but I'm going to post here too. I just need some damn perspective, good or bad.

Anyway, we are not in R in any way, shape or form (ex has brought it up but there is just too much damage), so I shouldn't even be concerned at all, but this has definitely hurt me.

Anyway... (copy and pasted...) I had a pretty big punch to the gut last night and just want some perspective, even if it's ugly. Ex confessed last night that him and ow are splitting. The punch to the gut was that after 3 years, he feels like him and this young girl have a connection that he's never felt with anyone else. That they really and truely are soulmates. He loved me as much as he loved her, but it was different with her. They could just look at each other and that was enough to feel that connection that neither one of them can explain, but is just there. They just can't make their relationship work in the real world and have come to terms with that. He is heartbroken and devastated. Wth....I didn't need to know that. Made me feel worse than anything else because he sincerely believes everything he said. Did any of you feel this way? That your relationship/connection to your husband/wife paled in comparison to om/ow...even after 3 years (2 of which were active affair...)? Or am I just that lucky?

[This message edited by rockbottom2468 at 1:33 PM, February 7th (Thursday)]


Me: BS-29
Him: XH-33
Dday: June 2011
Together: 13 years
Children: DD(8), DS (6), DD2 (8 months)
Status: He left for 20yo OW.

"Even on my weakest days,
I get a little bit stronger"


Posts: 1058 | Registered: Jun 2011
trynhard
♂ Member
Member # 22698
Default  Posted: 1:59 PM, February 7th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

ReunitePangea

I have been loving my job these past few hours. Love.. the meaning was discovered 1000’s of years ago and written in the greatest book ever written. You don’t even have to be religious to “get it” or not. My dad is an atheist, my grandparents were atheist.. But my Dad is one of the most moral and loving men I know. Here it is…

Love is patient and kind. Love is not jealous or boastful or proud or rude. It does not demand its own way. It is not irritable, and it keeps no record of being wronged. It does not rejoice about injustice but rejoices whenever the truth wins out. Love never gives up, never loses faith, is always hopeful, and endures through every circumstance ... love will last forever!

It is what it is…

you once said it was impossible for someone to love to people at the same time.

What I said.. or maybe I did not make clear..
No woman or man can completely love two people at the same time.

completely is what I am saying.
yes.. I think you are on the right track with your belief.
now you could argue was it really love though

A LTA is one of love and not loving in combination and has many different Variables.

Welcome to the tribe. We are loving you today with our quality time. A great book written about one subject.. The Five languages of Love. A must read. What it focuses on is Love is kind and the things you do when you love.

We love our kids. Our kids, like my son, may take our jeep out driving and while trying to spin out the tires in second gear, crash into a $10,000 fence. I am not exactly loving my son by getting angry about losing $1000 in deductible and knowing higher rates are on the way.

You see? When our spouses are loving those they have deep emotions, feelings, attractions, they are not really loving themselves. The are not loving us. They are not Nice. They were not patient. And in their secret life, that is their life.. we may still be loving them, but they are not loving us. When they come home to us, they may love us, but in reciprocity, they not exactly loving their AP.

If you can somehow see that powerful writing, it can be applied in many different ways.

Our feelings go up and down depending on what love is being given us or what love we give.. not only to others, but to ourselves.

Some over the years have tried to describe, convince us, confuse us, Love as feelings. Love is not a feeling.

All we can do is control our own love. Love is not getting angry. I can control my anger in many ways. It is taught to us by our parents or mentors. I can control my own compassion… empathy for the suffering of others. I can control my own thoughts and feelings by not celebrating evil things that are going to be part of life. Love is not allowing your own thoughts and feelings control yourself to do unloving things. And yes, you cannot love everyone in a compete, utopian way. But we can love ourselves in utopian. That is all we can do, control the ways we love ourselves.

Remember when I said this.. “If you can do something, it is because you know what to do and how to do it.” Sometimes, we withhold our love because we love ourselves and we should always love ourselves first.

You know why people love dogs so much? A dog is pure love.
I can shove my dogs noise in his own shit when he goes inside.. My dog is not rejoicing that. My dog’s love is so patent.. he will come back to me and still love me.. love me with touch be snuggling up next to me. My dog will love by never giving up on me by being kind to me. My dog endured my not loving. My dog “gets it” by going outside next time. My dog did learn something from my unloving behavior too. My dog did not demand he shit his way, he knows there is a different way of doing it. Outside.

And me? I am not a perfect man. I am not going to allow myself to think I was perfect. I was not perfect when I shoved my dogs face in shit. My dad taught me how to train dogs. You shove the dogs shit in his nose. See, I am not perfect and know I can look at myself. I can know by continuing to seek good behaviors, from others who know more loving behaviors, Ceaser on Dog Whisperer.. I can now train my dog in a loving way. My dog seems to give back even more.. it is the law of reciprocity. The more I love, the more I receive love in Reciprocity. Love is not self seeking.. I am loved because of the law of reciprocity. I am not seeking anyone’s love, it just happens. I focus on myself. And I know I am human. But it does not mean I don’t love myself enough to rejoice in injustice. Love is not that!

Sex? A man’s W can have sex with another man while her H is in the same room watching. Imagine that? Some people do it, others don’t. How can that be? What about feelings? Love rejoices whenever the truth wins out. You get that. You said it. I get it.

That same W can then choose to have one on one sex with that same man and do it in secret, not turthful.… Yet, it now has a profound deep effect on her H’s feelings. Love does not now rejoice about injustice.

All the different Variables are noise we must wade through in life. As we wade through all the noise, our feelings are up and down… Love = Happiness… Not loving = unhappiness.

A healthy person is in that endless search of being the most loving.. doing, every aspect of love, loving ourselves first at the same time by loving others.. our feelings are protected when we love ourselves. And the Law nature says we will be loved. Love always protects.

That one statement written by many years ago can apply to evey situation in life.


Posts: 2636 | Registered: Feb 2009 | From: Indiana
trynhard
♂ Member
Member # 22698
Default  Posted: 2:05 PM, February 7th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

The unfaithful spouse must be willing to stop the affair.

I want to make a statement to you.. The bottom line is that it takes two people ... it takes a husband and a wife ... each taking responsibility for making their marriage work.

SisterMilkshake sure didn’t fall off the back of turnip truck… Perfect quote…

"No one ends an affair because they realize they are still in love. They end an affair because they are scared. Scared of taking it to the next level, scared of being found out, scared of ruining their life." ~ Rick Castle

I believe that quote.. No cheater ENDS the A because they can see, vision, understand, comprehend, and realize they are in love.. That person has no clue, nor understands love, and even knows what love is even about.. That person is chasing feelings… they FEAR a feeling, afraid… The loss of a feeling. They FEAR what? They fear the Loss of Love.
- Fear Future great feelings as a family unit
- Fear how they are viewed in society
- Fear the opposite of love.. Heavy anger..
- Fear the loss of services.. Now I have no real, committed partner.
- Fear the loss of gifts we built together.. My money, our money.. cut in half
Yep they fear the loss of love in many areas.. It is very powerful.

But a cheater is also chasing other feelings too. They are chasing feelings that are love, the love as a noun.

And it is no difference for we, the betrayed too… When we do not have a plan to take a stand.. We also fear the loss of love too.. the chance and risk we take when we expose. Will my family end? I don’t want it to end! I don’t want to be D. I don’t want to go through all involved finding a new partner, I don’t want to be self dependant… on and on… Are we chasing feelings too. You bet ya.

If fear did not exist, then Gotta’s H would have been gone a long time ago chasing an attraction he has no real clue who this woman really is… He has no clue if this woman can love.

Gotta.. Your feelings do not need to be in confusion. You can set you mind to know.. I am in control of my own destiny. You are. The torture in your mind is about to end. Fact, You know your H is not loving you. You are going to achieve love one way or another. “until somebody decides they've had enough and ends the relationship”


I now you are a woman full of love to give.. What you need is to make the choice to love yourself. When you start loving yourself.. good feelings always come.

You have this within YOU. You can do this. Take a minute to close your eyes, form a plan and stick to it. Vision the plan. Vision you doing the plan. Take this fantasy and turn it into reality. You have the power, not your H.

Let’s get back to controlling what you are already doing. The plan to love him and add pressure and pressure as time goes on..

You have been loving your H now coming up on 2 weeks. Take out all feelings you know are from the recordings you have and those you read your H is doing this or that. Only focus on your reality at home and pay close attention to those. Your feelings have been pretty good haven’t they? See your H is living the law of reciprocity. It makes you feel good?

You can choose to continue the path adding slow pressure. It comes at a cost. The V-day as an example. But if you stick with this plan... with the plan, you must appeal to his good self too along the way. The pressure you apply is going to have to make him aware without maybe even himself being aware… You are going to lead him into making him think a about himself, his own morality, his own bad self.. so that his fears will end his A, on his own, by his own decision. Along the way you will need to teach him mature love.. In very clever ways so he will “get it” The odds are in my favor knowing you do not have an irrational man. His is confused, scared, chasing something he will never find until something changes that. No you cannot change him but you can do things that cause him to change himself. It comes with love and healthy conflict.

Do I like heavy pressure? Yes. Can I respect your different way of doing something, more slowly? Yes. And I can suggest some plans, things to say, do, that continues the pace YOU want to go at. I know it is a fact that loving your H can bring him home without direct confrontation, but I cannot tell you the odds. It will be becuase they fear not having your love. We have all failed at it on the LTA board. For good reason. I know I could do it today but only after all the therapy, Retrouvaille, listing to Dr. Jenn, Dr. Laura, this 30 or 40 books about sex, love, brain chemistry, fear, forgiveness, just to name a few.. but I also know my W is a rational woman.We discussed many times when she almost came home. But I never had the solid proof evil was happening! You have an advantage of knowing and are more than keenly aware. But kown, It will not work on an irrational person. Irrational people are on the wrong end of the bell curve. They just don’t change.

I want you to place some very heavy pressure on him. Heavy pressure will change people quicker. Please let me give you an idea.

BTW.. Please, share with us all the other fears you have. What else? It is best you get them all out so the Tribe can give you ideas based on things they did.

You have a fear. It is a fear your H gave you.. his ultimatum H give you. “Don’t YOU dare expose to the other man.” I am going to tell you this and listen very carefully. The OW’s H will be on your side. You have the ability to get him to help YOU and your M. USE IT! Use it, use it, use it!!! Yes, it will be hard for you. But like at the side of a pool, knowing the water is cold, once you jump in, you body will become acclimated. YOU will endure.. Love endures ALL.. Love is going to WIN. Love last forever!

It is a phone call. If it is a letter, if a letter, then do it from.. “A Christian that loves you dearly”

Gotta, “I am Mr. gotta’s W”
Gotta. “I am so sorry to tell you this but I know you deserve to know”
Gotta, “I frankly don’t give a rats ass after today if you believe me or not”
Gotta, “Your W is fucking my H and been doing it for years”
Gotta, “If you knew about this and failed to tell me, I forgive you”
Gotta, I am not sure if your H has hands free or not but if you can hear her voice… If you can hear her, even better, great. If not, no big deal. I want you to give it to him.
Gotta, “I am sending you recording to your work” (if you have it)
Gotta, “please I am in IC and dealing with myself. I want you to please not call me again. I give you all you need to know”

Now.. Once you do that.. You are going to be prepared. You are going to transfer as much money as possible into a new checking account. Once you do that.. you are going to confront.

Gotta, “OM H made contact with me. M is fidelity. Rocky, I want you not be afraid. I can handle you not wanting to be married to me. It’s really your choice. I want to be M to you. But can assure you, I will not love any MAN who does not behave in a moral way. Go get your head out of your ass and only then will I even talk with you. YOU GOT THAT.”

No arguing, No deep discussions, NO EXPLAING PROOF.. matter of fact.. as much as you can be.. just listen. LISTEN and LISTEN. NOT A WORD! You can cry all you want. Just cry and cry. The cry will be good for you, a natural healing of our brains.

HE will have no proof you had anything to do with OW H knowing. See, All you say "MADE CONTACT" means a whole bunch of things. For the great good of the M, never again to be talked about. YOU are stong like M3, you hang up on that converstion.. He made is own mess, not you. You are protected from any fear you have... A question will be in his mind never to know. Let them compare notes, who cares... If you need to repeat, You just say "Look rocky, He made contact GET IT! Honey, don't be foolish." never to be said agian.

What you just told him was.. Love is patient. (change or I leave) Love does not rejoice in evil. Love is going to prtect you. It is a given in life..

He is going to come back with an apology.. and the same stuff he gave you back in April 2011. Pay no attention to it. Just listen. JUST LISTEN. No argument, no deep discussion.. NO Fixing the M in any way. Listen to his suggestions. LET him figure out what he needs to do. Do not give a response other than.. “I need to think about it.”


You are going to 180 him now for a few weeks. We can review the 180 later once you make up your mind to get out of you own confusion. It will involve some withholding of love that you can always choose to give back later. Slowly at a time.


When you are done with the above, we can review and plan for a long discussion on Transparency. My W is an expert on transparency. Other here too. We can tell you behaviors that are transparent or not transparent. You can plan how to present Transparency behaviors to teach your H.

As part of the Tribe (LTA board) now, you owe it to us to share your experience along the way. It will be your way of giving back to us. We can learn from you. Se our relationship is two way, not one way. You get it?

Oh can still go on your trip. A man can change in about 3 months. If you start this now, you will be well into knowing if your H is behaving differently.


I am going to make a few comments so pay close attention. Your man is very confused in life. There is a bell curve in life. Some people are far on the Right.. and some are Far on the Wrong. It is fact. This is not anything you can to change an irrational man. NOTHING. You love yourself by not making an irrational man part of your life.
- An irrational man expects HIS problem to be YOUR fault ... He wants YOU to fix HIS problem ... or He makes you out to be a bad guy.
- NEVER, EVER pay to appease an irrational man or to try to make him happy!
- Do NOT accept any hurdles, hoops, or criteria he offers you that will
"make" HIM happy.
- He does not choose to use his mind in a way that generates happiness. You will see this.

I can go more into this later but you need to get your mind prepared for the pressure to come.


Now.. I have heard you say.. I can’t. You must get that out of your head. YOU CAN. Everytime you think you cannot, you tell yourself, I can do this. You can do it. You can fantasize about doing it. Do that… Put yourself on the phone with OM’s W.. talking to him. Put yourself talking to your H… Try this in fantasy first many times. How you will say it, the setting, in your home. No kids around for awhile, Vision his face.. Vision him not know what to say, not know how to react.. his face turning red, his speech faster.. and making crazy statements, maybe him storming out, maybe him shifting all on you.. You calm, collect, not rattled.. tears are ok.. No saying anything in return.. YOU just listening… Those tears will heal you. When you come out of the fantasy.. You tell yourself I can do this.. In the car when tell yourself.. I can do this. REPITION!!!

Now tell me what you think.

[This message edited by trynhard at 3:19 PM, February 7th (Thursday)]


Posts: 2636 | Registered: Feb 2009 | From: Indiana
trynhard
♂ Member
Member # 22698
Default  Posted: 2:47 PM, February 7th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Rock..
I had a pretty big punch to the gut last night and just want some perspective, even if it's ugly. Ex confessed last night that him and ow are splitting. The punch to the gut was that after 3 years, he feels like him and this young girl have a connection that he's never felt with anyone else. That they really and truely are soulmates. He loved me as much as he loved her, but it was different with her. They could just look at each other and that was enough to feel that connection that neither one of them can explain, but is just there. They just can't make their relationship work in the real world and have come to terms with that. He is heartbroken and devastated. Wth....I didn't need to know that. Made me feel worse than anything else because he sincerely believes everything he said. Did any of you feel this way? That your relationship/connection to your husband/wife paled in comparison to om/ow...even after 3 years (2 of which were active affair...)? Or am I just that lucky?

Soulmate? I laugh at when people say that. What the heck is a Soulmates? I know Soulmate are made, manufactured. I can have a millions and millions of soulmates. I know the secret.

Connection, You mean attractions.. like a fine ass body.. young body.. tight body. Can I can build you up to a point you feel great about yourself or can I tear you down? I can do both. Your H had attraction.. he has yet to know how to love… If he does not figure it out.. He has some belief and stuck in romance.. he will be stuck in endless Disillusionment and misery...


Oh but those couples that both can figure out mature love… Now that is a soulmate.

My W is my soulmate.. She is my soulmate until she chooses not to be my soulmate.

[This message edited by trynhard at 2:54 PM, February 7th (Thursday)]


Posts: 2636 | Registered: Feb 2009 | From: Indiana
ImNellNow
♀ Member
Member # 28753
Default  Posted: 3:54 PM, February 7th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

gotta and Sue,
I saw this in another forum and thought of your situations:
http://www.baggagereclaim.co.uk/beyond-the-regret-hangover-thoughts-on-letting-go/

Rock,
Does your XWH reveal "secrets" to you often? I ask because I would NC him if he did. That's just weird and inappropriate and, most importantly, hurtful to you!

To your question: This statement

They could just look at each other and that was enough to feel that connection that neither one of them can explain, but is just there. They just can't make their relationship work in the real world and have come to terms with that.

Yeah, that's the definition of limerance. And it lasted a long time, for limerance, but then the first 2 years were fake time, so the end of unicorns farting rainbows is right on cue. The next time he finds another sooooulmate, all former loves will once again be but shadowy memories upon the tapestry of his whateverblahblah. Please. Immature rubbish. So, yes, his dopamine or whatever chemical release that comes with new love hasn't completely worn off yet, hence the inexplicable magic connection, but one or both are trainwrecks, hence the inability to have an actual adult relationship. Ick.

Also, saying that to you was cruel. What an ass.

Sorry, folks. I've had a crappy week and it just got worse, so I'm in no mood to put up with sugar-coated unicorns farting rainbows.


BS & D
Drinking wine and thinking bliss is on the other side of this.

Posts: 2370 | Registered: Jun 2010 | From: Baby steps on my new path
ImNellNow
♀ Member
Member # 28753
Default  Posted: 3:55 PM, February 7th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Hi, Laura. Love you, too. Sorry you're having a tough time.

-Nell


BS & D
Drinking wine and thinking bliss is on the other side of this.

Posts: 2370 | Registered: Jun 2010 | From: Baby steps on my new path
ReunitePangea
♂ Member
Member # 37529
Default  Posted: 4:04 PM, February 7th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Trynhard - Thank you so much for your insightful post. You gave me many things to think about.

What's difficult to think about is the person that I have been loving for 14 years was obviously not loving me back completely - but I have to be the one to never give up, never lose faith and always hopeful - that's a very hard pill to swallow.


BS - Me 38
WS - Wife 39
D-Day - Oct 12
Married 10 years
OM1 - 12-year LTA
OM2 - 9 month A turned into open relationship with couple for another 1 1/2 years

Posts: 405 | Registered: Nov 2012
deeppurple
♂ Member
Member # 28757
Default  Posted: 4:53 PM, February 7th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Quick update from the Deep -
WW has agreed to a mediation intake interview ... so thats a start.
WW has engaged a new lawyer so hopefully she starts to listen to what this one says. Federal court date set for March to hear my request to sell the house. She can longer avoid the reality of the real world.

"You cant start the next chapter of your life, if you keep re-reading the last one"

take care tribe


Me - BS 49
Her - WS 43
Married 16 yrs (together 17 yrs)
DD13 DS10 DS8 DS6
DDay 1 6.4.2010 dday 2 7.25.2010
Heading for divorce.
"Never look down on someone unless you are helping them up"

Posts: 522 | Registered: Jun 2010 | From: Where the sun is shining & the surf is pumping
trynhard
♂ Member
Member # 22698
Default  Posted: 5:10 PM, February 7th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Nell you crack me up
Yeah, that's the definition of limerance. And it lasted a long time, for limerance, but then the first 2 years were fake time, so the end of unicorns farting rainbows is right on cue. The next time he finds another sooooulmate, all former loves will once again be but shadowy memories upon the tapestry of his whateverblahblah. Please. Immature rubbish. So, yes, his dopamine or whatever chemical release that comes with new love hasn't completely worn off yet, hence the inexplicable magic connection, but one or both are trainwrecks, hence the inability to have an actual adult relationship. Ick.

Posts: 2636 | Registered: Feb 2009 | From: Indiana
njgal480
♀ Member
Member # 24938
Default  Posted: 5:21 PM, February 7th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

rockbottom-
I'm so sorry that your WH said those things to you.
But, your question as to why he would say this about the 20 yr old OW?

fog....

lots of it....

she represents freedom....fantasy.... ego strokes...fluttering eyelashes telling him how wonderful he is, how well endowed he is...etc. etc.

That's what he likes about her-the ego strokes and the escape from reality.

You are his wife and the mother of his three young children.

Your life is busy, hectic, stressful as it should be at that stage of the game.

Not all fun and games 24/7.

I'm sorry that he is too immature and too selfish to realize what he is doing to you and to the children.
He is putting his own needs first.

and that's why the relationship with the OW is ending... it cannot stand up to the reality of day to day life.

He's looking for 'happiness' in all the wrong places.

My husband did the same thing for many years- it was booze and his drinking buddies and then later the MOW f-buddy/drinking buddy.

He did not appreciate what he had and he took it all for granted.

It wasn't until after d-day when I kicked him out of the house that he finally woke up to the reality of what his life would be like.

His MOW was heading for divorce by then and her BH was out of the house....so the affair partners could have been together 24/7.

And you know what? Neither one broke NC.

My guess is that they both realized that they were not interested in the affair partner for anything more than an escapist sexcapade.

I'm so sorry for your pain.

Are you seeing an IC?

Its important to find someone in real life to talk to.

[This message edited by njgal480 at 6:02 PM, February 7th (Thursday)]


Me- BS
Him- WH
Long term marriage
D-day- Jan. 2007
5 yr. LTA
Reconciled.


Posts: 3139 | Registered: Jul 2009 | From: NJ
7yrsflushed
♂ Member
Member # 32258
Default  Posted: 5:42 PM, February 7th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Rock bottom, Njgal and Nell covered it. Your wh is still in the fog. They say some evil things without a care for the devastation it causes to the bs. My stbxww told me that she and mom just clicked. That was just the top of the mountain of garbage. When in the fog and sometimes even after, they can't think beyond their selfishness. They had to minimize us for so long to justify their actions that you can't trust anything they say. It took me a very long time to realize that my wife was a pod person. Their words hurt you but they aren't the people we remember. If you are not in R and are choosing to S or D then try to detach and ignore the things they say. I am on the way to D and my wife still is clueless of how much some things she says sting. I wish you the best.


D-day 5/24/11
BH = Me
STBXWW = Her
2 children
The first true sense of calm I felt in YEARS was when I filed for D...
Separated 6/2013, D official around 6/2014

Posts: 1570 | Registered: May 2011
gotta2know
♀ Member
Member # 37115
Default  Posted: 7:01 PM, February 7th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Trynhard -

I know I will not talk to her husband, I am going to let that one go. He knows if he chooses to look and I KNOW it cause an absolute ugly explosion in my house and I just can't do it. I know can't is an awful word but that is one thing I just can't do. I know how it will play out- her husband will tell her I've called, she will call my husband and the war beings. This battle will be the last one I have with me after the divorce is filed.

I like your comment:

If fear did not exist, then Gotta’s H would have been gone a long time ago chasing an attraction he has no real clue who this woman really is… He has no clue if this woman can love.

I think about why he hasn't left and you are right, he has just as many fears as I do, or more. He used to be known for being the "peace maker" and for pretty high morals, I'm sure he fears lots of embarassment and shame once this gets out.

I saw a post earlier where the WW called her adult children and told them all exactly what WH did and I couldn't do that either. I was shaking in my boots just reading her post, lol, that is over the edge for me. My daughter is from my first marriage and is 22 and I don't think I would even tell her the truth about what he's done. I think I would tell everyone BUT my children, my other kids are 15 and 13.

Heavy pressure - youch, I'm not ready. I've been appealing to his moral side by reminding him that he is my rock and that his behaviors need to be honest and trustworthy. I am also getting my point across to him as I watch my parents struggle with my dad's illness that I don't want my life to end the way his is, miserably married- I want to be happy and happily married when I die. I let him know I'm not happy now, but with work I could be. I don't put the expectation on him to make me happy, I let him know I am working on me through counseling and doing my own things.

Fears, fears - the biggest one for me is:

1. Conflict. I hate conflict and he is always so good at making me scared. He tears me up with threats regarding my children, I think he thinks I am not able to care for our children mentally (wrong- once I have this conflict out of my life I will be in a much better place). He threatens me with finances although I can make it on my own with a tight budget. It's just fighting with him that I hate. I've never been the type to avoid a fight when it needs to be done but somehow he has turned this all on me to be afraid. I'm not even sure what I'm entirely afraid of. I know our kids are at an age where we will share them and both of us will be at their activities so he can't keep me away from them.

2. I fear he will take the divorce and not look back, mostly because he is stubborn. I know I will probably be thankful down the road but it is still scary.

3. I don't want to be alone. The world is a big, bad place. I also want to share the joys of life with someone, too. Logically, I know I won't be but I know I will need lots of time to recover from this whammy!

4. Finances would be tough.

5. I don't want to start all over.

6. I don't want another man or woman involved in my children's lives. I want it to be the family they've always known.

7. I don't want to deal with another man's children and all that goes with that.

8. I hate the thought of losing what we had planned for our future. We were looking forward to being empty nesters, sharing in our adult children's lives, grandkids, retirement. We even had a thing about matching rockers.

9. Just the future in general.

He told me today that he has plans of being in our area next week for Valentine's so no Valentine's with the ho. However, I'm guessing it's just delayed until the next week. He has plans of being near the area they meet. We will see how it progresses the week of the 18th.

I can do some of the 180, I am not calling him first or texting him. I am not begging. I am not following him around. I am giving back when he gives.

The way I envision this going down is I'm either going to suspect he's meeting her and I have a direct confrontation or we go on the trip and we have the battle afterwards.

My strength is coming from my dad. My dad would have loved to have been in a loving marriage and isn't. He grew up in one and my mom didn't. My mom wasn't the most giving person and at times my dad wasn't nice either. Basically, they've been a mess. It's so sad to see him miserably married and deteriorating. They are at each other's throats over basic care and routine things. I won't let my life end this way. I am 45 years old and I want more than that for myself.

I know in the end you guys are all right- if it's going to end, it's going to end when I boot his ass out the door. When I get those bitch boots on, he will know and it's going to hurt. I just have to know I have the strength to follow through. It doesn't do any good to have this battle if it doesn't have teeth. I'm going to keep working on myself!


BW - 46 (me)
WH - 46(repeated cheater, cake eater)
Married 17 years
DD 4/8/2011 and many more
3 children- 22(mine), 16 and 13
Living in misery trying to understand why I choose to do so.
I like the saying "feel the fear and do it anyway!&

Posts: 165 | Registered: Oct 2012 | From: SD
rockbottom2468
♀ Member
Member # 32496
Default  Posted: 8:52 PM, February 7th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

His logic is that it was enticing when it was just and affair. But there was no attachment then. But after dday and I booted him out, he had to go live in his van (because OW in irresponsible and got evicted and her car repossessed within a month of ex leaving)...and while living in his van with her, they formed a connection and bond that cannot be explained. Through the past year, everything in their relationship has been fine and the bond has grown, but they just can't make it work because she is still irresponsible and selfish and many other things. He says he see's it now and see's that it will never, ever work. But, he is upset because he's never felt this connection before. So...from what you guys posted, it sounds like limerence to me. Something that won't go away....great. Sounds like this will be an on and off whore that will always be on and off in my kids lives...can't wait.


Me: BS-29
Him: XH-33
Dday: June 2011
Together: 13 years
Children: DD(8), DS (6), DD2 (8 months)
Status: He left for 20yo OW.

"Even on my weakest days,
I get a little bit stronger"


Posts: 1058 | Registered: Jun 2011
njgal480
♀ Member
Member # 24938
Default  Posted: 9:07 PM, February 7th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

No, rock bottom -limerance DOES go away! It's going away already for your WH!
It's when they begin to see the affair partner without the rose colored glasses on.
They begin to see the reality of what life would be like with the affair partner and in most cases it would NOT be pretty!
If anything your WS is mourning the loss of his fantasy world because he's realizing that life with the 20 yr old screw up will be extremely screwed up for him too.
Be ready ,he may come back to you
Asking forgiveness and wanting to get back together.

Take it slow
Go to IC
If you even consider u
It plan what your conditions would be.

Mine were 100% transparency- I had access to all accounts.
NC with the OW. ( luckily he stopped working there one month before d day
And in my case no more, drinking ever. He wentvAA and got sober and continues to attend meetings weekly 6yrs later.

He has also made tons of other changes
He's much kinder, less selfish

[This message edited by njgal480 at 9:14 PM, February 7th (Thursday)]


Me- BS
Him- WH
Long term marriage
D-day- Jan. 2007
5 yr. LTA
Reconciled.


Posts: 3139 | Registered: Jul 2009 | From: NJ
m334455
♀ Member
Member # 26893
Default  Posted: 10:51 PM, February 7th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

gotta:

Take a deep breath. Blow it back out. Relax your shoulders. Stretch a bit. Another deep breath... calm down.

You're thoughts are swirling so fast I'm getting dizzy.

Another good skill you can learn while deciding how you will choose to respond to your spouse's LTA is to "live in the moment."

I really think this is a fantastic skill that people don't do enough of. Find a way to reliably ground yourself to what is physically surrounding you at any given moment.

You can ask yourself a million "what if?"s and yet something entirely different than any scenario you dreamt will happen.

Or, as I explained to The Pharaoh (my 11 year old) Every time I've worried about all the bad things that could happen -- when something bad finally did happen, it wasn't anything I'd worried about or even could have conceived of at all. And it also wasn't really all that bad.

But enough about me -- let's talk about you -- what do you think of me

Gotta, I hate to join in the "do this" "do that" bandwagon here because I think in your present frame of mind deciding whether to wear a particular pair of socks is probably taxing right now. Nonetheless, some progress must be made.

I suggest a "light" 180. My terminology for this is putting your spouse in the Friend Zone. It gives you a little time to clear your head.

My WH threatened me about the kids too. It's just desperation and also saying the kids are wanted. Yes, mine said he would take the kids and I'd never see them again. I pointed out to him that he'd never taken all (3 of them at the time) of them anywhere by himself . . .
the response? I got a good 6 hours to myself when he took them all out the next day!


BW 38, 5 kids
Dday Dec. 2009

Posts: 4034 | Registered: Dec 2009
gotta2know
♀ Member
Member # 37115
Default  Posted: 12:17 AM, February 8th (Friday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

m334455-

I think from reading some of your posts, you and I have a bit in common. I think I would like you if I met you!

You are right, I am dizzy! I can't make the decision which socks to wear either! I really have spent the last 2 years in a total depression. I have mentioned going back on an AD to my husband and he just hates it. He thinks if your life is so miserable that you need medications to live in it, you need to fix it. Imagine that thought, huh? He thinks the same of counseling, too. Anway, I was on Wellbutrin but blacked out one night after having 3 drinks. I felt a "buzz" coming on and that's all I remember. However, I kept ordering drinks and my husband didn't know what was going on, he thought I was just having a good time. Anyway, he practically had to carry me to the car. I lost about 8 hours and it scared me enough to wean myself off.

I think about trying another medication because when I really look at my life, I'm not doing anything. I don't cook much, I can never finish the laundry, I don't keep up on the finances like I used to, my mind wanders insanely, I don't enjoy anything very long. I can't focus. We did talk about this in counseling and she thinks I should give another med a try. I probably should, just haven't gotten to it (imagine that!). My inability to focus is incredible. I don't think I've finished a damned thing in 2 years. I have lots of good ideas and then when it comes down to it, I just can't do it, or if I start, I don't finish it. Talk about feeling ADHD! I work in an elementary school as a head secretary and I am beginning to relate more and more to those little hellions!

I like your idea of living in the moment. I have thought I just need to enjoy what I'm doing for the moment. I need to take my kids to a movie, skiing, just out engaging them. Sitting around the house I don't do that, I need to get us out of the house to motivate myself. Lots of good moments are passing me by.

You are also right about worrying about what's going to happen. Someone said that worry is the most worthless emotion there is because you can't predict what's going to happen and what does happen isn't anywhere near your thoughts anyway.

I've been "testing" him a little. We got into an argument tonight when I think I heard facebook chat chimes in the background (she is the only one he chats with). He denied it, said it was email and was mad at me for suggesting it. He accused me of not setting the right foot forward and being a liar. He said he done, this wasn't working out. I said OK and just let whatever happen happen. He called me back, hung up again over something. This went on 3 or 4 times. I didn't call him back once! This is big for me, usually I would call and try to fix it. The only part I was weak in was that I said I was sorry if it was truly email- not real sure but I still think it might have been facebook.

At one point when he was mad I said instead of getting mad he could say that he was sorry that I felt insecure about his intentions, he could have eased my mind by saying that it was just an email. He had the choice to ease my mind or fight and he choose fight. He, of course, thinks I chose to fight but accusing him of facebooking her.

I went to visit my dad for awhile this evening and he said he was just going to bed so he wouldn't call- we usually talk later in the night. I just let it go and didn't call him either. He called me.

I think you might have been the one to remind him of the fact that I've divorced a husband already. I think that is a good idea. He also cheated!

I think some of the reason he is handling my dad's situation with kids gloves is that he truly does love me and wants to stay married. He is smart enough to know that if he doesn't respect my needs with my dad that I will be forever angry with him and will divorce him. He also knows some of the reason I divorced before were over health issues with my oldest daughter - my ex wasn't there.

I see signs that he loves me, but I also see signs of manipulation and control, probably to protect his god- given-cake-eating rights, huh?


BW - 46 (me)
WH - 46(repeated cheater, cake eater)
Married 17 years
DD 4/8/2011 and many more
3 children- 22(mine), 16 and 13
Living in misery trying to understand why I choose to do so.
I like the saying "feel the fear and do it anyway!&

Posts: 165 | Registered: Oct 2012 | From: SD
trynhard
♂ Member
Member # 22698
Default  Posted: 7:53 AM, February 8th (Friday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Gotta... I am glad you shared. I can feel ya. All those fears are valid in your situation.

OK still on plan we discussed going back a couple weeks ago. All those post since were to help you gain courage with heavy pressure. Go back and review my post page 15 and review.. The about who my wife is.. Quality. Those are also about what a man needs. Keep doing them.

Appealing to the morality your man once was is huge progress for you. Good job so far. You can do this.

Remember.. No argues. No debates or deep discussions. Facebook chats.. Keep it simple.
"Can I see you chat?"
No
"Oh, ok.. You can always see my chats. That is transparency. I don't hide and I man that is a rock hides nothing, that is what want. do you want to watch TV with me?"

See you are a conflict avoider. You need to develop ways to communicate in a way giving your H a choice, yet make it perfectly clear what you need and want. Chats hurt you. If he does it after that, you can tell him that chats make you feel unsafe. Keep in not a debate, nor anger, matter of fact.. You must remember what is attractive to a man. A woman who can tell her H in a safe, choice driven, matter of fact, non anger, non crying, what you want and need for him to be attractive to you. Give him implied pressure he will place on himself. No man or woman wants every day in shame, fear, guilt.. waking up and going to sleep in all those bad feelings. He is living a slave right now. Make this the new you to lead him out of this misery. Practice it in fantasy.

It would be neat for you to Practice one here with us.

Are you afraid of your kids? Do you avoid conflicts with them? I bet no. You have power over your kid. You have power in your M too. You are far more valuable for your H for him to let you go.

Everything you must do is for the good of the M.

Will a drug fix your feelings and be good for the M? Perhaps. If a drug can get your mind to a calm place so you will have the right tone, emotions, peace, etc to be a new woman with confidence to execute your plan in a good way then they are good for the M.

What would you do if om h does discover on his own and H comes home blaming you? Deal with it then? Sooner or later, this man is going to wake up.

We have some very smart people here. Question for the tribe. How can we get OW H to help gotta so in no way it comes back as her being at fault? One where she feels safe?

The ow has a deep emotional bond with her H. Once she feels the pain of end, I think she will drop gotta's man like a hot potato.

Welcome back UK.. Some great post by all you fine folks.

Peace out


Posts: 2636 | Registered: Feb 2009 | From: Indiana
m334455
♀ Member
Member # 26893
Default  Posted: 8:09 AM, February 8th (Friday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Well, tryn, we HOPE the OW has a deep emotional bond with her BH -- but remember in my case my IC said OW's behavior was classically psychopathic and she didn't have a deep emotional bond with anyone. My friend who was her former nanny confirmed this bad behavior, as did the bizzare psuedo-stalking she was doing like dyeing her hair the same color as mine, decorating her house to match mine, getting the same pets as me, asking my nanny to go through my closet and check the labels on my clothes and look through my jewelry (which she did not do) anyway.. creepshow.

But, chances are if Gotta reveals the A to OW's BH it will end. and OW will discover what my OW did -- that her power was illusory. Many times OW convince themselves and are convinced by OM that they are perferable to the BW -- but OM "has" to stay "for the kids" or "because BW is sick" or whatever excuse that is medium-term. An excuse that has an end that is far away but not too far is ideal.

I know SI says you should always tell the other BS but I did not. We went cold turkey on seeing them after seeing them at least 3 times a month and also vacationing with them. He can decide whatever he'd like about that.

What I did was, in lieu of getting hard evidence I got OW to confess the affair to me in writing via e-mail. She was forcing her hand.


BW 38, 5 kids
Dday Dec. 2009

Posts: 4034 | Registered: Dec 2009
m334455
♀ Member
Member # 26893
Default  Posted: 8:49 AM, February 8th (Friday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

whoops I meant to write more...

I believe she thought I would D WH and he would marry her to keep from being alone.

But I did not make that choice ... and after the confession I used facts to wedge them farther apart in a very effective way. My WH is a lawyer too, and we lawyers speak lawyer I used this to my advantage. I could give you many of the arguments I presented -- but the important part is that they were arguments that were not really bargaining with him, they were arguments that had power. Unfortunately, in our professional and social circles affairs are pretty common. We should be on a reality show but we're not pretty enough... Arguments like: "I can't believe she ratted you out. She's disloyal. I've always been loyal to you."

"This isn't the first time she's betrayed you. She treated you terribly by marrying her BH behind your back."

"I'm sad for you that you think so little of yourself that you would have a relationship with someone who treats you so badly. You're far more valuable than that."

These are very powerful statements.

Gotta -- you probably would benefit from some medication. Usually, the general rule is to wean yourself off alcohol, not your medication.

I would also suggest you read Codependent No More by Melody Beattie and her more recent (but a bit different) update on it -- The New Codependency. Another good book for you would be Boundaries by Henry Cloud and John Townsend. They've written many great books, including one called Boundaries in Marriage, but I would recommend just Boundaries first. These books will teach you to be more gentle with yourself, help you to figure out why you avoid conflict so much and also help you set some boundaries. Sometimes you need to start so small that you're actually not even setting them with your husband but in other areas of your life first.

I've changed a lot since Dday and I'm continuing to change. I hope for the better. Lately I've been a full-time Mom rather than a working Mom. I think I got fired three weeks before I had my new baby. (Baby Pedro by the way everyone is amazing! Super healthy, coos and babbles, is gaining weight like a champ (90th percentile!) and very sweet. I've left him with others a total of 25 minutes during his life. I think that's perfectly appropriate for a 2 month old who is exclusively nursing. He's never had a single bottle!) Ok, back to what is more important to this forum.

Depression will sap you dry. You will need to treat it to get back on your feet. There are many medications. If you didn't like Wellbutrin, tell that to your doctor and try another! I would recommend seeing a psychiatrist for medication management rather than your regular doctor.

In my life over the last 18 months or so, I've had much bigger problems than recovering from infidelity. Bipolar disorder can cause long term cognitive impairments and mine has progressed to the point where I can't do many things I used to do. I will probably retire on disability or possibly just be unemployed within a short time of ending my maternity leave next month. I am also having to turn all the finances over to my WH. I've done them alone for the last 11 years, but I can't do it anymore.

But, I've learned to be gentle with myself! As I said to my IC (we bipolar patients usually prefer "pdoc") I have no idea why I thought I could develop a serious disease like bipolar disorder and simply take a magic blue pill every day and not have to make any changes in my life. I hung on to working full-time and being in charge of 90% of the household tasks for 8 years since my diagnosis, even through having 7 pregnancies during that time. But I can't do that anymore.

And about setting smaller boundaries that have nothing to do with your WH -- I have some examples from my life.

I get pedicures and get my hair done nicely on a regular basis.

I make time for myself.

I don't work late or on the weekends. (I work from home so this is big -- for several years I kept up by working 20 or 25 hours of unpaid overtime at odd times during the week.)

I simplify my life wherever possible.

A recent one -- I've taken on a prestigous volunteer opportunity in the field I got my BS in. But, I also put limits on that -- I told them I could come once every other week after my baby is eating enough other foods to be away from me the length of the volunteer time.

I take care of my body very carefully. I look better, and my mood is better from being healthier and having more confidence from looking better. (I'm already wearing my pre-pregnancy clothes and they are a little loose! Not many women are a size 12 (10 1/2 ?) 2 months after having a 5th child. This bodes well for swimsuit season if I stay on top of it.

I say no to too many activites...

I decided to get out of debt 100%. My WH does not agree with this -- so I'm doing it for all the debts with my name on them. I also saw a lawyer who said I could not be expected to take on any debts with only WH's name on them in a divorce or if he died in my state. I've reduced my debt by over $1.1M in the last year. I still have some debts, but I expect to pay off another quarter of them this year. I'm hoping to be debt-free in 4 more years.

Well, I'm rambling and also taking care of 3 preschool children by myself and unpacking from my move, so I hope there is something helpful in there for someone and I'll check in again sometime next week.

Be blessed, tribe.

See, there are many boundaries you can set


BW 38, 5 kids
Dday Dec. 2009

Posts: 4034 | Registered: Dec 2009
forgivenotforget
♀ Member
Member # 11053
Default  Posted: 9:26 AM, February 8th (Friday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I saw a post earlier where the WW (oops - I think you meant BS)called her adult children and told them all exactly what WH did and I couldn't do that either. I was shaking in my boots just reading her post, lol, that is over the edge for me.

Gotta - I think it was my post you were referring to - sorry if this rattled you a bit.

Let me explain though why it was necessary to do this. The OW in my case was thought to be a friend of the family. She was someone my H brought into our lives and was included in every important family function we held. She was someone that I considered a friend, someone I took to lunch, went to the movies with, attended bridal and baby showers with and celebrated her son's wedding with. I had her over for meals and even sat with her while her H was getting his cancer treatments. Yes, she was f'ing my H while hers was dying. I will never forget that day when I walked into the family waiting room and found her alone while he was in treatment. She walked up to me and hugged me and told me that she was praying that someone would be there with her and that when I arrived she knew I was the answer to her prayers.

She was someone who frequently called our home and whoever answered, whether it was me or one of my children, spent 10 to 15 minutes talking with her. When her H did die, my children and I attended all of the services and cried with her.

Her sudden disappearance from our lives needed to be explained and I was not going to lie to my children about why she was no longer welcome in our family. My children were all in their 20's and knew my H and I were going through something awful. If they were younger, I am sure I would have handled the situation differently.
Also, I did not personally tell my children, I made my H tell them with me present so he didn't minimize or sugarcoat his A. I could go into a lot more detail about the extensiveness of it all but hopefully this helps you understand a little better.

I know M3's OW was also a friend of the family but her children are much younger than mine. I don't know how she explained the OW's absence from their lives. Maybe she can tell us how she did this. Also, their children were all friends. This has to be so hurtful.

It is so complicated when our H's bring these OW into our lives and the lives of our children. The sudden disappearance of the OW who our children think is someone very special, someone who loves and cares for them, is very confusing I am sure when the BS is protecting them because they are too young to really understand.

M3 - how did you handle this??

Double betrayals are so painful. It's just so amazing that someone can be f'ing your S and come into your home and act as if they really care about you and your children. They can take all the support and compassion you extend and stab you in the back as their thanks. Truly, I will NEVER understand what kind of person can do this.

[This message edited by forgivenotforget at 9:40 AM, February 8th (Friday)]


D-day - 12/23/05 LTA - 8 years.
"Love's a matter of trust and I just want to believe in us." M McBride

Posts: 1901 | Registered: Jun 2006 | From: A tunnel where I'm beginning to see the light
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