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User Topic: Long Term Affairs - Part 30
gotta2know
♀ Member
Member # 37115
Default  Posted: 5:38 PM, February 5th (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

It has been a long time since my D-day, too long. He has kept me sucked in with continued lies and false hopes. I always have wanted to believe that it would end and I kept hanging on to that hope.

We have a t-shirt business and he kept wanting to build on it, invest more money, we even attended a couple of shows to see how we wanted our business to grow. I felt like he was wanting to keep building together. He has always believed in married couples being a "team" so I ran with this business plan. I thought we were going in the right direction, he has shown me that we are not. One of the times I busted him I threw out to him that I didn't realize our "team" had 3 people in it, teams can have as many as you want. I was under the understanding our team was the 2 of us. He didn't like my comment, of course, he believes it's important to be on the same page in a marriage, working together, etc. Yes, I know he hasn't been a team player but we will see in April which "team" he choses.

I finally have reached a point where I am tired of the lies and I want him to get off the fence one way or the other. Yes, I am going about it in a round about way, but I am so far in the gutter I really need this time to get it right in my head, to do what's right, work on the counseling, be positive with my husband. I think 60 days of doing what is right is nothing to give when your family is involved. I truly want my marriage to work.

Tryinhard's thoughts are up my alley. I don't want to make any rash decisions- I don't want to live with the "what ifs" in my life. I have spent 2 years crying, begging, pleading and he chose to cake-eat, nothing has worked. Why not give 60 days of true, heartfelt effort?

In a way, I do hope to change him- I hope he sees how good he has it with his wife and family and stops the affair with his ho on his own. I can't make him do anything, he has to chose this route. If he doesn't want to change I know in my heart that I have done what's right and I have earned my way out of the marriage. I can walk away with pride, no doubts and know that I am an awesome catch for the next guy that deserves me. I have learned alot through this and they have been some awful tough lessons. Before his affair, I wasn't as attentive to the marriage as I should have been and that's where I own my part in the affair. I know if I am showing him I want to be attentive to the marriage and am trying to build our future that if he continues his affair, I can't do any more.

I am the type of person that will take a lot before I say enough is enough but when I do I don't have any regrets. When I divorced the first time (at age 23), I took him back 3 times in about 1 year before I had enough. Once I did, I walked away knowing I had done all I could do and that it was the right decision. It was still very hard to move on but I didn't have to deal with the "what ifs" or self doubt, I had exhausted all I knew to do.

It is still probably going to come down to a battle. I am already envisioning it a little. I am going to give the trip my best and see how it goes. If after we get back I am going to have a calm discussion about what I know and will continue to learn through my recordings. I am going to be calm and tell him that I am done with the marriage and will be filing for divorce because there are no other options left for me. I have honestly done all I can do and I can't make him do what his heart doesn't want to.

If he choses me he will be expected to call her in front of me to end it. He will be expected to have way more empathy for me. He will need to find a way to avoid meetings in the future with her, maybe even have to take me along if need be. I will not tolerate it anymore.

When my dad passes I need to be in a good place with MYSELF. I can't keep dragging all of this baggage around, it is way toooo heavy. These next couple of years are soooo important to me that I can't be wasting any more time on him. He needs to come along or go. I want to enjoy my dad, my children and life in general. I'm tired of just existing, it's no way to live. I want to live and enjoy the moment. If my marriage ends I think it will be a great relief in many ways. I won't have to wonder what he's doing behind my back, I won't waste countless hours "stalking" him, I won't be so down. Divorce recovery is miserable but at least each day gets better, I understand minor setbacks but at least it does get better. This type of life does not!

Trust me guys, I will get there soon enough!


BW - 46 (me)
WH - 46(repeated cheater, cake eater)
Married 17 years
DD 4/8/2011 and many more
3 children- 22(mine), 16 and 13
Living in misery trying to understand why I choose to do so.
I like the saying "feel the fear and do it anyway!&

Posts: 165 | Registered: Oct 2012 | From: SD
SisterMilkshake
♀ Member
Member # 30024
Default  Posted: 5:45 PM, February 5th (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Wow! Thanks for sharing that with us, RSEB.

Like you, even though my FWH ended the affair of his own accord, I really don't think he ever really felt shame or guilt. Oh, yeah, a little here and there. I would imagine that is why he was so indulgent with letting me buy whatever I wanted. But, that isn't why he ended the affair. He was scared OW was going to tell me.

I feel that like you, RSEB, most WS's compartmentalize all those shame/guilt feelings. Subtle pressure will just bounce right off that shield of fog they are enveloped in.


BW (me) 50ish FWH 50ish
Married 34 years, 3 children
d-day 3/10 LTA (4 yrs./fucking & flirting)

"Oh, why do my actions have consequences?" ~ Homer Simpson
"She knew my one weakness: That I'm weak!" ~ Homer Simpson


Posts: 8934 | Registered: Nov 2010 | From: The Great White North USA
gotta2know
♀ Member
Member # 37115
Default  Posted: 5:56 PM, February 5th (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

The fog is heavy and I fear it alot. It may be impossible to pull him out of it. It may come down to the final battle but I will have 60 days of good, positive feelings before that battle and I will have some strength to go with it.

I do think he has somewhat of a concious. Right now it's buried deep!

RSEB, what a story. It sounds similar to mine in some ways. He has tried convincing me that I'm nuts for stalking him. I should trust him and that it's over, blah, blah, blah. He does the same mean things to me that your MOM did to his wife. He tells to "get over it" so we can move forward. It always makes me angry that his attitude is this way and I have had many discussions with him regarding this attitude. I've questioned his ability to "move forward" with her in his life, is he really moving forward as long as she is around- NO!

In the last couple of weeks I have been able to have some rational conversations with him about his insistence that I not dwell on the past, not stalk him, move forward, etc. He realizes my behaviors are due to the lack of trustworthiness on his part but doesn't like the uncomfortableness that goes with it.

For now, I am dropping it all. I am putting on my happy face
and moving forward. Forward may, in the end, mean out, too!


BW - 46 (me)
WH - 46(repeated cheater, cake eater)
Married 17 years
DD 4/8/2011 and many more
3 children- 22(mine), 16 and 13
Living in misery trying to understand why I choose to do so.
I like the saying "feel the fear and do it anyway!&

Posts: 165 | Registered: Oct 2012 | From: SD
njgal480
♀ Member
Member # 24938
Default  Posted: 6:36 PM, February 5th (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

RSEB- Thank you so much for being so honest in describing your past.
It can't be easy to drag up those memories and remember all that happened then.
I think you described very well 'the fog' of the affair and how the only thing that shocks most WS out of the fog is something drastic.

I also agree that most WS are in the mode of finding fault with the BS to justify the affair.
They would not appreciate the kindness of the BS-instead they would see it as a weakness.
Thats one thing that James Dobson says in his book- Love Must Be Tough. Similar to the advice of the 180- do not beg or plead for the WS to choose you or to come home...the WS will see this as weak and pathetic not at all attractive.

But... everyone has to decide what works for them.
As BS we have many things in common but we are different people with different needs etc.



Me- BS
Him- WH
Long term marriage
D-day- Jan. 2007
5 yr. LTA
Reconciled.


Posts: 3139 | Registered: Jul 2009 | From: NJ
MC_Jack
♂ Member
Member # 35016
Default  Posted: 10:29 PM, February 5th (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

She told me she wanted to stop the A many times and this was one of them. Can you imagine the pressure I could apply if knew what I know now

This really struck me, hard. My WW tried to break it off only once or twice. However, she often asked that they just be freinds and end the PA. She had no help, no SI, she had been isolated by OM completely.

When I think about what trynhard wrote, I see all the times I now hurt myself with my imagination. In my mind I create a fictional past where I did these thoughtful things like that (which i didn't) and I catch her in the A. It's my own way of tormenting myself.

More often I think about the fact that over the 2.5 years I never did anything special for her except towards the end. I think about all the times I couldn't have done this or that but didn't. Maybe she would have left the A sooner. For example, last Valentines day was the day before her last, Waterloo trip to meet the OM. Did I get her anything? A card, flowers, dinner? Nope. If I had taken her out, really told her how I felt, anything, would she have gotten on that plane? As it was, she almost did not go; she felt like she was waiting for someone to tell her to stay
home. It's one of those things that haunts me. How do I forgive myself? It feels like I just shit on my own front porch.


RSEB: what made the OM omnipotent as far as your situation?

[This message edited by MC_Jack at 10:40 PM, February 5th (Tuesday)]


I am not a marriage counselor. I chose "MC Jack" in the spirit of a handle like "MC Hammer" or Young MC"...there is a lot of 'rapping' here, no? At the time I did not know what MC stood for on this site. Duh.

Posts: 788 | Registered: Mar 2012 | From: West Coast of Hopa-hopa-land
gotta2know
♀ Member
Member # 37115
Default  Posted: 11:06 PM, February 5th (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Thank you MC_Jack, I appreciate the comment regarding wishing you would have done more. This is exactly what I don't want to live with if we divorce.

If I understand properly, you are still with your wife.

I just think there is always time for confrontation and I'm not ready for it anyway. I am giving myself time to figure out many things in my life and I'm hoping he will see all of the good in our life that will go out the window if he doesn't throw her to the curb. I'm hoping to appeal to that good person I married almost 17 years ago, I know he's still there somewhere.

Most times I think he wants to do things right by me. I can't believe it because so far his actions haven't shown me that. I am going to work very hard in showing what good we have going in our lives. He says the words, I'm hoping the actions follow.

I think later I will also remind him that he won't be the only man in his children's lives. I will move on, I don't want to be alone, I will eventually want to share life's ups and downs with someone special.

You can't avoid the hurt of S/D no matter what you do. I know I will be disappointed and hurt but I also know I will get over it and I will be a better person for it. I will have exhausted EVERYTHING you can try and have done all the right things I can do. It will be up to him to live with his poor choices, stupidity, ignorance, stuborness and arrogance if he lets this marriage get away from him. He will have blown a good thing out of the water.

If he ends up with her I think he will live the life I am now - he won't be able to trust her, he will be looking over his shoulder, he will always wonder, he will know the pain I have felt. Maybe she will. If he ends up with her, may they be cheat each other til death do they part!


BW - 46 (me)
WH - 46(repeated cheater, cake eater)
Married 17 years
DD 4/8/2011 and many more
3 children- 22(mine), 16 and 13
Living in misery trying to understand why I choose to do so.
I like the saying "feel the fear and do it anyway!&

Posts: 165 | Registered: Oct 2012 | From: SD
RSEB
♀ Member
Member # 34728
Default  Posted: 6:19 AM, February 6th (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

what made the OM omnipotent as far as your situation?

MC Jack, I would have to say that it isn't "what" that made the MOM omnipotent, but who...and the answer is ME. I am the one who gave him that power through my weakness. He did not do anything magnificent to or for me. We did not wisk away to grand weekends, we did not exchange gifts, but for me I felt he loved me. In my case we dated and were friends 20 years ago. At that point he told me loved me, I did not feel the same. I went back to by BH, who was then my BF (we were broken up at the time). The MOM 20 years ago was in love with me, he was convinced I was the one, and throughout the years I "knew" he felt that way about me. He had mentioned to me throughout the years that he wanted to be with me, that I was "different" for him, that I was "special". For me, my A began when I didn't feel adored (I wouldn't say loved) by my BH.

I gave MOM that power over me. To know he wanted to be with me. MOM had told me many times throughout the A that if I would have just given him some sort of sign of being interested in him and not turn him down every single time, then he never would have gotten married to his W. To me, a woman who craved validation, that was all I needed to know.

Now throughout my IC and through SI I have learned and explored what caused me to step outside and turn away from my BH. I often wonder what in the MOMs history caused him to step outside of his M only 5 months after he got M'd. I so feel that WHs and WWs are SO different.

MC JACK, you said you often think if you would have been able to stop your WW. My humble answer is, "no". It was too late. She was already an addict. She had already put that needle in her arm years prior. The web of lies that she told you during her A is like building a wall...each lie is a brick that separates the WS from the BS. The wall is there and any good you would have done during her A would have been blocked and skewed by that wall. It is not until that wall comes crashing down, for me it was on D Day, that I could finally see my BH with the wall crumbled around him, standing there with all his pain and anguish. It was then then that I began to question myself and ask "what have I done"? It is the same as a drug addict who has to hit rock bottom.


ME - FWS


Posts: 259 | Registered: Feb 2012
trynhard
♂ Member
Member # 22698
Default  Posted: 6:35 AM, February 6th (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

RSEB.. Thank you for that post… the similarities you described are just like my wife.
same.. I just kept finding fault with my BH and I felt suffocated by him.
same.. If it were up to MOM BW, she never would have confronted us. MOM had her convinced that she was "crazy"
same… Unless you are in an LTA it is impossible to understand the power the AP has. (Like I said before, attractions are very powerful, I understand RSEB. These same feelings might be just as powerful as how I feel for my W!)

FNF.. Yes, my W was exposed. If you are asking me did exposure end the A in my situation? Yes. If you asking me do I think my wife would have ended her A on her own? I don’t know that answer. All I know is during the hours and hours of our discussing her A, she shared that she tried 3 or 4 times to stop. Once, she stopped for about 5 months. Not hard to start it up again when you work so close together and the BS is not in conflict over her bad behaviors. And her not able to tell me what she needs.

MC_Jack.. Well, Let see.. do you want to hear the hundreds of things I did? Let’s face it, our W’s were too weak to place enough pressure on us so we could correct our own behaviors. Our W’s failed to communicate! The way I see it, this was on our wives. They owed it to us to communicate! If I am a “Hardcore Pawn” man, how do I correct my behaviors if I am not told effectively? Our women think we are supposed to just know it. Heck, you should easily forgive yourself. All we can do now is develop into the most attractive man to the best of our ability.

[This message edited by trynhard at 6:37 AM, February 6th (Wednesday)]


Posts: 2635 | Registered: Feb 2009 | From: Indiana
trynhard
♂ Member
Member # 22698
Default  Posted: 8:18 AM, February 6th (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

You know how I love art.. You know the ole.. “art imitates life”

I can understand Gotta’s plan to be like that movie Fireproof. 60 days of doing loving things and she hopes her H then makes a choice. One way or the other.

In the movie, “But his (H) marriage with Catherine (W) is suffering and she wants a divorce. Meanwhile Caleb (H) discovers Dr. Keller's (OM) budding friendship with Catherine (W), and warns him he will not let Catherine go without a fight. “

Gotta.. I will share a real life story, an experience. About 2 or 3 years before my dday, my wife casually mentioned we are growing apart and during the discussion, a S was mention by her. I was floored! This was so just out of the blue for me. Deeply hurt and had no clue how to handle. I just flew out the door drove for over 3 hours.. my wife called leaving several messages to please come home. She just apologized for the conversation her words did not come out right. I accepted it.

So, I searched the internet and made a post on LHJ. Told them of my situation, what happened, my gut feel about OM, told it all. I had a few replies but I had 2 very special people posting.

One suggested I love my W back into the M.

The other suggested I hire a PI to track her and look for the A. Confront! And even end it because the pain is too hard to take.

I decided to love my W back into the M. I think my W did almost cross back over. However, the attractions she had for OM were too strong. She feared finding a new job, she feared losing the “romantic love”. A need she desired and needed. So, the A continued and eventually we fell back into the same ole routine.. slow decay.

If I had the choice again, knowing what I know about me back then, It was a bad decision. A wrong choice. However, If I had the experience of Retrouvaille, IC, and sex therapy, I would make the choice to love my W back in the M. Do you understand? I changed for the good of the M.

I want you to be perfectly clear going into your 60 days that if you believe all the ways you have loved him in the past, he is going to somehow all the sudden and break the attractions for his OW, I am calling on this post to as a wakeup call. You must do some things, say some things, be a whole new different person. I must be a new you. You must say to yourself, I am going to change. I will say, sure, you know how to be attractive in many ways and enough that many men will accept that kind of attraction. You need to build on it. If you make a choice to do this without trying a few new and different things, I am pretty sure you will walk my path. Your situation is different but similar is the big way.

You are clear that as long as only it is you working on you, this is not Reconciliation. I like you also know that it may work and may not work and you will be at peace with the outcome. That is emotionally beginning to disconnect but your head is still in the M. By choice, You are choosing to love.

Some questions you might want to ask your IC.. Ask the IC if they’ve watched the Fireproof movie.. tell her/him you are still making the choice to love your H but not confront just yet or even making the choice to R. Since I choose this route, please tell me the behaviors I must do.

-Should I tell OW to back off?
- Should I not withhold all of my love? Or only part? What parts?
- Should I say things that make him feel guilty so he will think and debate his behavior?
- Should I do those 180 on the list? Show them to the IC. Go through each one.

Let your IC guide you too. She/he is a pro. But you must also not take anything you IC says to heart. Last night, I was at dinner. My customer was telling me how his sister is all fucked up. She is a PHD giving M advice when her own damn M is falling apart and she is a mess.

Ever watch that show, Interior Therapy? Jeff works with a woman who is a life coach. She is messed up.

My buddy was telling me a woman he was dating once. Kids are friends. He went out with her a couple times.. She was not a relationship type woman. Now she has a life coach buisiness and wanted a $1000 to be his life coach... Go figure.

I went to two types of IC. Faith based and PHD. Both have different views on things. No one way is right or wrong. Just take them in… Who really knows what you got... who knows if they really know what is right or not.

It will be very hard to find anyone who will know how to do this. I remember reading about a story like what you are doing and her H did get his head back in the M, for the greater good. I will still try and find it but no luck so far.

Me, I know that what you need to change about you is to make sure you learn how to communicate in a loving, yet firm, fully understanding way without anger, getting rattled, emotions.. etc. Sometimes, for the greater good the M, you must conflict! It won’t feel good, it won’t be pleasant, it will be full of fears. In your mind, you must believe, convince yourself, and execute this very attractive behavior. It is the art of healthy conflict.

I have been told it is games, it is fake, it is not being yourself… not if you make it your new self. It is a good thing to somehow know how to bring your spouse back into the M. All of us have it within ourselves to leave it.


For the past week, I hope you have been behaving in a very forgiving, very love manor. This is a very good thing when you make the choice to try the Fireproof way.

But you must also appeal to his morality. You need to somehow guide him get the courage himself to make a choice. His head must get back in the M. Not easy. RSEB made a very power statement…

“good wife behavior are only going to annoy him”

Your comments, your behaviors, what you do must overcome the above. There will be certain languages of love that will annoy him and some that will not.


When I would give my W the typical love men do, it might comes off as.. Fake. When it comes off as fake, it will be annoying. His head is in total resistance right now.. STOP loving me because I cannot choose! YOU have the ability to see this.. when you are aware, you will feel it, see it, and you can execute a very basic one liners.

“honey, Love is always a choice. You can make the choice to love me or not” This will be a conflict in his own mind. You just brought on conflict for the greater good of the M.

Gifts? The love of gifts.. me buying flowers did nothing but annoy my wife.. The typical man gift. However, a small flashlight for his car.. This will be appreciated. Stupid trinket gifts.

How about a book to write his feelings.. “honey, I got this for you”… Say something strategic! You write a note on the first page reminding him of.. H, I love the way you touch me, just you, me, and our kids are forever bonded, it is a rock, you are a rock, and all the good in you is a rock, show me, even when I am not around, not in your presents, be my rock on your own choice. You are the rock I know you to be deep inside.”

Touch.. “Honey, I am glad I have a man like you, true to life now I know you have within you. I feel bad for those woman who’s man who bring home warts. Men who are rocks like you don’t crush people he cares about, bonded with”

Tell stories.. Honey, I overheard two women saying in the grocery line, she was going to date this man without her BF knowing about it. It gave me the some angry feelings.” Nothing else said. Let him react.

You are going to have to get very clever, very smart about what you say… the message is clear.. attractive is fidelity to me… be that man and you will see peace from me.. and within your own soul.

And you, despite what anyone might tell you, forgiving is not easy, it is a process, not matter the outcome of your own M, you need to know what it means and how to do it. It is a good read!

It is not easy to explain what I am trying to say other than get in full game mode… change and be ready to add some stress to his brain.. make him think, make him react to YOU with the things you say, all positive, all loving, all toward him getting his mind back into the good of the M. Not easy but each one of us, if we really think about it, can come up with many good ideas, good ways of saying things, doing things..In a safe way where we do not react to any defensive words..

You might even think about not VAR him for the next few weeks. You focus on feeling him. This is about you getting in touch with how your man feels just by watching, paying attention, making him react to you. You see RSEB how she was annoyed… you will feel this too. Understand your own feelings. No woman or man can completely love two people at the same time. Completely is the key word. What love he will be not blessing you with, will be something you need to try and discover. If you can figure it out, you can conflict that part.

You might also consider this.. Faith can be a tremendous refuge.

In phase II.. in the next week or two.. You grab his hands, you can say a prayer together. Then you can look him in the eyes.. I have been reading that book.. I am going to make the choice to forgive you as I learn how. You must now dig deep inside yourself and have great compassion for me. Please, don’t say anything. I know you have it within yourself to end and never start anything you might have for any other person. It is the same for me. I want you, I want our M, I want it to be a loving, caring, giving, and intimate. I am working on me and doing everything to the best of my ability to be the woman you picked many years ago. I also love myself, I surround myself with people who will be a rock.” Then just hug him. Whisper to him… Please don’t talk let’s just hug tight.

Do not concern yourself with what he may be doing or thinking about the OW or at least for these next few weeks. If feel that coming on, DO Something to divert your thoughts. You have that within you. Go see your dad.. enjoy him. Make a point to do something with your kids… When the time comes, near the 60 days, you will feel it within yourself and know if he is really loving you or not. If you want certainty, you can bring out the VAR.

More later I am sure…

Peace

[This message edited by trynhard at 8:37 AM, February 6th (Wednesday)]


Posts: 2635 | Registered: Feb 2009 | From: Indiana
RSEB
♀ Member
Member # 34728
Default  Posted: 8:32 AM, February 6th (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

TrynHard,

Now you know you have helped me in ways I can't even explain. It is with that knowledge and respect that I have to disagree. I just don't understand how Gotta can do what you are asking.

If you were in her position, and you KNEW, you had proof, as she does from the VAR recordings, that your FWW was ACTIVELY engaged in her A, that she was kissing the OM and being intimate with him, you would be able to love your WW. You would be able to make love to your WW, KNOWING you are sharing her body and her mind with OM. You would be able to put all of that knowledge aside and just be there to win your WW back?

How do you do that? I would be a basket case, and to try and envision my BH in that role, I can't. How can a BS put on a front and ignore all those facts. I don't think it is humanly possilbe, much less healthy for the BS self esteem or sanity. I do understand that it will leave the BS knowing he or she did all they could to save their M, but the FIRST step in saving that M is GETTING RID OF THE AP, and then tell the WS that you choose to forgive them and show them your love.

I am the FWW, and I do not believe it is possible, and I KNOW I would not be able to do it, and I have been trying with every ounce of life in me to be a the quality woman my BH deserves, and has all along.


ME - FWS


Posts: 259 | Registered: Feb 2012
atsenaotie
♂ Member
Member # 27650
Default  Posted: 8:38 AM, February 6th (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

MCJack,

If I had taken her out, really told her how I felt, anything, would she have gotten on that plane?

Let me try to offer you some absolution. I cannot speak for your sich, but in mine, the answer was there was nothing reasonable I could do.

In spring of 2007, I suspected an A. FWW and a well-meaning friend convinced me it was all in my head. When I talked with FWW about our relationship, she told me I was "broken" and needed to be "fixed". That she was not happy and preparing to leave the relationship at some time. We had drifted apart, and lived relatively independent lives. Our relationship was essentially asexual due, she said, to menopause. I was not unhappy, but had long ago given up on my M and FWW as a source of strength and support.

Based on FWW’s accusations that I was not a good husband, and some pretty intense anxiety that had built up suspecting the A (which had been going on for just over a year in reality) I made appointments and attended IC. I attended weekly sessions for about 3 months. We worked on self-confidence, communication, and conflict avoidance. It was productive work that changed who I am.

I also rededicated myself to being a better H for FWW. I tried to participate in activities she had made clear she did not really want me to attend with her. Things like school events, her work events, inviting her to my work events, family trips. None of this went very well, it was still clear she preferred us doing things separately. I went back to sending notes, cards, and flowers to her work like I did early in the M. I made sure she had the money for anything (within reason) she wanted. Better and newer clothes, trips to visit her family, expensive gifts for kids. I tried to support the interests she had by helping out where I could. I found unique gifts that were perfect for her and her hobbies. I did more work around the house; laundry, cooking, lawn care, car maintenance, bill paying, repairs, etc.

From spring to fall 2007, FWW moved to start PA with her last OM. This A would last 2+ years. During this time I was trying to be a good H, really taking ownership of the M problems and making an effort. FWW says she had tried 2 or 3 times over the 2+ years to end her A, rededicate herself to the M, and be a better wife. Each time, within weeks, she would find some fault in something I did, and take that as proof things would never be better. She never broke off her A, in fact while she says she was loosing interest in OM, her communication and meetings with him were up the last few months.

Our M did not begin to improve until a year after dday when FWW began IC in earnest to work on her issues. Once she made progress on her issues, the litany of M issues going back nearly 20 years disappeared. As she began to own and address her issues, she realized I was never the problem. Most of the negatives in my behavior in my relationship with FWW were driven by her detachment and rejection of me. It is hard to be a loving and supportive spouse when you are criticized and blamed for everything. I remember the early MC sessions where he would ask FWW if it was Atsenaotie’s fault she was not happy, and she would look shocked and say of course it is.

So MC_Jack, I suspect that there is little you could have done. Your WW had an issues she needed to work through, and rather than turn to you for support she acted out with OM. She was and would have been numb to your efforts. FWW too said that if I had been this or I had been that she would have been happier, but I had been or tried those things and she had rejected me.

[This message edited by atsenaotie at 8:43 AM, February 6th (Wednesday)]


LTA BS 53
FWW 60
M 1990, dday 10-5-09
Reconciled

Posts: 3962 | Registered: Feb 2010 | From: FL
MC_Jack
♂ Member
Member # 35016
Default  Posted: 9:13 AM, February 6th (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Gotta: yes we are reconciling. I decided to R on the first day. I knew in my heart that I had not given 100% to my M. I also loved my wife. Plus, as I have posted before, my wife actually had busted her ass for me for years without reciprocity. In some ways I feel I guess she had paid forward a second chance if she were truly remorseful.

Tryn: I wasn't quality. My wife failed on communicating miserably. An article on marriagebuilders.com speaks to a sitch in which a WW never communicates her needs and hidden feelings and finds herself in an A. That resonated with her.

Forgiving myself over not doing more includes a sense of vigilance. I almost didn't care what she did, except that i did care obviously.

Immediately post d-day I presented myself as a quality man. Looking back it was the leadership, spiritual and practical, in the face of desolation that made me attractive.

ATS: on a Christmas card, my wife said that all the arrows of blame pointed at me have fallen away. She has a lot of negative self talk in her head and is a perfectionist. The latter trait has driven her to be an excellent surgeon but a difficult life partner. She is "Hard to Love" like in the song by Lee Brice.

To her credit, she has never said, 'if you had done that." That wondering is just in my own head. I never did those things that you did. Maybe I should be glad that I didn't.

You comment about her re-dedicating herself and then finding fault a few weeks later sounds familiar. We had a great holiday 2011. She says the best ever. She had not seen OM for 7 months. But a week later, over New Years, we had a fight, OM contacted her and invited her to meet him in 6 weeks. She said yes under similar thoughts as yours, "my M is not meant to be."

By the ways, ATS, congrats on your strength and patience. What a turn-around for you.

[This message edited by MC_Jack at 9:26 AM, February 6th (Wednesday)]


I am not a marriage counselor. I chose "MC Jack" in the spirit of a handle like "MC Hammer" or Young MC"...there is a lot of 'rapping' here, no? At the time I did not know what MC stood for on this site. Duh.

Posts: 788 | Registered: Mar 2012 | From: West Coast of Hopa-hopa-land
trynhard
♂ Member
Member # 22698
Default  Posted: 9:35 AM, February 6th (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

R..
If you were in her position, and you KNEW, you had proof, as she does from the VAR recordings, that your FWW was ACTIVELY engaged in her A, that she was kissing the OM and being intimate with him, you would be able to love your WW.

I know this.. Love is a choice. It is not my choice to make. Can I want gotta to rip out that VAR, give her H an ultimatum.. Send that NC letter, stop all contact, get back in this M or I will D you. I can want gotta to withhold all her blessings, her love.. with hope his on his own his misery is enough to want to come home.

Gotta.. I will tell you, if you expose, expose your H, ow H, you will more than likely get to a final conclusion sooner. The pain of end is very powerful. It will bring some closure.

She can know there are other ways to skin a cat too.

Remember, good thoughts will lead to what? With those thoughts comes what? Love is patient, love is hope.

I think she has made it very clear she will get to that point. At one point in her life, the ups and downs finally gave her the courage to end her first M. I believe she has that power again.

R.. you ever watched Fireproof?

Now place your mind in gotta’s mind. She for reasons has explained, she want her family with a father who is the father. She is not ready to give the final ultimatum. I respect her decision. It is not my decision. I respect Honest’s choice not to leave the security of her home. I respect Allgood’s choice to keep her family.

My W can gain weight to the point she is 200 lbs. Will I find that attractive? Will I feel good about her unpleasing look? Not really.

But I can tell you this.. I will still make the choice to love my W. I know a man who once gave his wife an ultimatum, Lose weight or I will D!

Me, Yes, I have it within me to love her for not the one feeling I have over her physical appearances.. I won't share that feeling with my W. If she is sweet, caring, giving, intimate, and I can have all those great feelings with my kids when they come over, spend time with my grandkids together, sharing something no second partner can ever have with me.. So what? if I have a few feelings that are not attractive. Damn straight I can do it. I don’t have to feel good about everything. Why? It is my choice.

What I can do is place my W’s mind in mode of healthy behaviors. I can lead by example. I can encourage her to come work out with me.. reward her with positive affirmation that I admire her work ethic.. I admire her effort to cook good foods.. I can lose a few pounds myself to and tell her how I did it… I can place good thoughts in her mind as to eating good things.. I can encourage her to follow what the doctor is saying.

Love is a choice... Not some feelings.

I think I can understand the Great sacrifice Gotta’s is taking. The path she takes is very hard. Fact is, all of it is hard no matter what direction. She is choosing to love her H despite the evil. She will slowly work through her feelings, and I hope along the way somehow show, lead, encourage, her H to change for the good of the M. A M that effect both her, her family and friends. She is not burying anything. She is controlling her emotions by choice to the best of her ablity. She is making a choice to take a different route.

This method can work.

Can you relate?

You can "get" mature love.. It is very peaceful. Do you understand when I choose to love my W, I am at a point of mature love?


[This message edited by trynhard at 9:43 AM, February 6th (Wednesday)]


Posts: 2635 | Registered: Feb 2009 | From: Indiana
trynhard
♂ Member
Member # 22698
Default  Posted: 9:57 AM, February 6th (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

MC_Jack
You must understand that sometimes, a person will choose to stay in misery or chase something they may never find.

As ats says.. You cannot fix any other person. You can only fix yourself. Don't even try to fix another. You can encourage someone to seek help. That is all you can do.

You can choose to be attractive.. but like ats did say.. there will always be that person who will take the basket and the honey.

Such is life.

I can look at ats and say.. He did the best job he knew how. That is all he can do.

It is hard to be a loving and supportive spouse when you are criticized and blamed for everything.

This I never accept. "Honey, just because you do something one way does not mean I can do it another. Now, you stop it. I don't tell you criticize you because things can be done different. I want you to get back in making our M what it is suppose to be.. nice! Now, I am going to mow the yard, do you want to grab a sandwich with me afterward?"
Let them behave badly again.. next time you ramp it up a bit.

Can you imagine if both M folks did this for each other? The average joe will change.. the average jane will change.

But remember.. there is always a bell curve!

Pick wisely, be nice.

[This message edited by trynhard at 10:01 AM, February 6th (Wednesday)]


Posts: 2635 | Registered: Feb 2009 | From: Indiana
gotta2know
♀ Member
Member # 37115
Default  Posted: 10:19 AM, February 6th (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

My loving actions don't seem to annoy him and I think I am in tune with him pretty well. He is like a sponge, he absorbs all of the good things I give him. I do think that he hasn't loved me like he should and he hasn't felt the empathy that he should - I feel all of this. I know he can't love 2 women like he's supposed to love a wife and sometimes I feel this, too, pretty much from the above things.

I have started exerting a little pressure regarding his promise to be honest and trustworthy. At lunch the other day I promised to put my best foot forward if he would promise to be honest and trustworthy. He sent me a text encouraging me to have a good day and I sent him one back thanking him and reminding him that he is my rock. And then this morning in our conversation before work he asked if I was in a good mood and I said that I was because I was putting my best foot forward and he was being honest and trustworthy. We'll see- like you say, I can only believe half of what he says and none of what I see.

I haven't seen the movies you mention but I will look for them.

I am feeling a little weird about things, I can't quite pinpoint what it is yet. Sometimes I feel a little distant and removed from him, kind of like we are strangers, I don't know. Maybe it's the beginning of the detaching. He has truly hurt me in the most cruel ways and I am having a hard time justifying how he could do that to me. Does he really think staying with me to "build" me back up and then leave me for her is going to make it better for me? I actually think that it is more devastating to be led along with false hopes when he has no intentions of staying with me. I'd rather be done now and start working on recovery. Money- does he think it's all about money? I'd rather live in a cardboard box than stay with someone I don't want to be with. These things are killing me today, maybe it's some of the distance I am feeling. Also, he is out of town and I am usually hypersensitive because I know he has more opportunities for contact with her. He's not in an area where I think he will see her though.

Another issue I have coming up- with my recording I heard him say something about meeting her on Valentines. If I suspect this is happening, do I go and confront? This would require at least a 5 hour drive each way and missing at least a day of work. Not sure how to handle this one. I don't know if I can love him out of that one! I don't think I can resist the urge to bust him red-handed with her. This will definitely up the confrontation. This will also end my trip. This will end the 60 days of being nice, too.

What do you think? Confront and get it overwith?


BW - 46 (me)
WH - 46(repeated cheater, cake eater)
Married 17 years
DD 4/8/2011 and many more
3 children- 22(mine), 16 and 13
Living in misery trying to understand why I choose to do so.
I like the saying "feel the fear and do it anyway!&

Posts: 165 | Registered: Oct 2012 | From: SD
ReunitePangea
♂ Member
Member # 37529
Default  Posted: 11:14 AM, February 6th (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Wow there is some really insightful discussion going on. RSEB - your posts are amazing to me, they are so helpful to me to understand things from the other side. Thank you so much for sharing as I think you are helping many of us BS in LTA's.

I will say though that I do not think WH and WW are that different though. All of them have different reasons but they are all capable of having the same reasons whether they are a WH or a WW. In my WW case her LTA started even before we were M. She ended it shortly (so I'm told - I have my doubts on this though still) while we were engaged and for a very brief period while we were M. She started it up though very soon after our M though - just like your AP. Now I fully understand that I may still be getting some TT as I am sure she couldn't bare to tell me how close she was having the A compared to our wedding day as the obvious question of why the hell did you even marry me in the first place comes up.

Another thought that I found interesting is the amount of guilt that you felt during the LTA RSEB. It is somewhat comforting as a BS to hear that you felt guilty during the LTA. When I found out I didnt confront my WW right away - I had given serious consideration to letting her live the rest of her life with the guilt of OM1 - OM2 was still around but that was a different situation entirely. She obviously still has guilt now but I think the guilt combined with not knowing what your BS would do if they found out would be very intense.

Trynhard I know you once said it was impossible for someone to love to people at the same time. I am not sure if that is true in these LTAs. I think in shorter A's, yes the WS turns off love for their BS and starts often loving their AP instead. In some of these LTA's though I really think the WS often loves 2 people at the same time - otherwise at some point they would have got off the fence and made a decision. I really think that is the case with my WW - now you could argue was it really love though - I would counter with does that even matter because that is what they felt for a very long time during the LTA. It is what it is and maybe part of me doesnt want to admit that there was a part in time that my WW stopped loving me, but I feel if she ever did she would have just left or in my case never married me in the first place. These tainted memories really do suck!!!


BS - Me 38
WS - Wife 39
D-Day - Oct 12
Married 10 years
OM1 - 12-year LTA
OM2 - 9 month A turned into open relationship with couple for another 1 1/2 years

Posts: 398 | Registered: Nov 2012
trynhard
♂ Member
Member # 22698
Default  Posted: 11:21 AM, February 6th (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Ideas

Take a past great v day experience that you and your dad had together.. Use this happy moment.
"Honey, dad once did this on vday. Tell him the story. Its a meaningful to me building us up and making a more caring, giving, intimate M. It. Good for both of us. You will be present in our M. I want you to be with me this week." Then touch his back.
Let him decide and fight all your feelings if he chooses travel. Just say" ok, I'm not I feeling like that is solid like a rock. You know? I read in a magazine (I did for u) that some men place work over M. You do what is best"

If he goes.. Hire a PI, ask him to get some pictures. Send them to OM H. With a note. From, someone who cares for you.

Reactions? You spoil a special day for OW. Or.. You just got someone on your side that helps you get your H head out of his ass.

"Honey? What are you talking about? Me? You had better rethink who brought this on yourself. Who sent those pictures? Never say never answer! White lie for the good of the M.


Posts: 2635 | Registered: Feb 2009 | From: Indiana
SisterMilkshake
♀ Member
Member # 30024
Default  Posted: 11:22 AM, February 6th (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

What do you think? Confront and get it overwith?
Hhhmmmm! gotta, you confuse the heck out of me.

If I were in this situation I would drive the 5 hours to catch them red-handed. Or, I would confront my WH before the meeting and tell him I know what his plan is and I won't stand for it. But, you continually say you don't want to confront. That you want to love him for 60 days and go on this trip.

However, I feel that maybe you need to see him with her, to really finally "get it" that he is cheating on you, that he is checked out of the marriage, that he is stringing you along (and probably the OW, too), he is not remorseful in the least, he is deep in the "fog", and that he is a cake eating fool.

If you do that, yes, your 60 days of co-dependency will be finally over.

eta: Is this trip already paid for? Do you physically have the airline tickets? If your WH has the tickets, I would find a way to get them and put them in a safety deposit box that he doesn't have access to, or give to a trusted friend or family member. If the trip is paid for, ask a friend now to go with you. So they can get their passport and plan for the trip. You still get to go on the trip.

[This message edited by SisterMilkshake at 11:34 AM, February 6th (Wednesday)]


BW (me) 50ish FWH 50ish
Married 34 years, 3 children
d-day 3/10 LTA (4 yrs./fucking & flirting)

"Oh, why do my actions have consequences?" ~ Homer Simpson
"She knew my one weakness: That I'm weak!" ~ Homer Simpson


Posts: 8934 | Registered: Nov 2010 | From: The Great White North USA
ReunitePangea
♂ Member
Member # 37529
Default  Posted: 11:31 AM, February 6th (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

gotta2know - perhaps there a third option for the potential v day. I've thought about what I would do if i ever suspected my WW of having another A and I know I would completely screw with her mind. If they were say meeting up at a hotel, I would go there with keys to her vehicle and drive it to say the next parking lot over. Another idea is have a nice suprise gift basket waiting for them at the hotel - maybe say it is from the company they work for. Then I would play stupid. Stuff like that to screw with her mind that maybe I knew but not let her know that I know. Eventually I would confront but not after showing them that they were not smart enough to fool me again.


BS - Me 38
WS - Wife 39
D-Day - Oct 12
Married 10 years
OM1 - 12-year LTA
OM2 - 9 month A turned into open relationship with couple for another 1 1/2 years

Posts: 398 | Registered: Nov 2012
gotta2know
♀ Member
Member # 37115
Default  Posted: 11:33 AM, February 6th (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I am confused myself! I am all over the board. I really think I want to give doing what's right an honest effort. It hurts no matter what I do and I run myself on this hamster wheel until I'm crazy. I don't want him to spend Valentine's with her. He will use work as an excuse not to be home with me and I usually am ok with that, he has to travel for his job. However, I am not ok with being told it's for work and him spending it with her. Maybe I do need it rubbed in my face to hurt enough to leave, I don't know. I've heard plenty through my recordings and I'm still here .

This is the worst hell I've ever been in. At this point I know it's my own fault for putting up with it. I am very sad and confused about why I stay. I think a lot of it has to do with the fact that my husband was such a stand up guy before this- is that really gone like that? He is also stringing me along, filling me full of lies and hopes.

I don't know.


BW - 46 (me)
WH - 46(repeated cheater, cake eater)
Married 17 years
DD 4/8/2011 and many more
3 children- 22(mine), 16 and 13
Living in misery trying to understand why I choose to do so.
I like the saying "feel the fear and do it anyway!&

Posts: 165 | Registered: Oct 2012 | From: SD
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