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I Can Relate     Print Topic    
User Topic: BS Questions for WS's - Part 7
Spideysense
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Member # 39591
Default  Posted: 11:14 AM, July 11th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

arnold...
only my experience so take what works for you, leave what doesnt...in regards to my A, it was long term, and it was primarily emotional, there was some PA to it but again primarily EA. I talked to the AP every day for a long long time. Not even heart pouring convos, sometimes convos about weather, lunch, etc. when my H found out, i immediately sent a NC text to AP and it has been that way since. my dday was what i needed to pull my head out of my ass.
as the first few weeks went on, occasionally my BH would ask if i missed AP, my answer was i missed talking to him. not necessarily talking to HIM but convos with him had been a part of my life for such a long time it was difficult to not talk to him or so i thought. this hurt my BH, that was not the answer he was looking for, but from dday on i made a committment to be honest about everything no matter how hard it was, and at the time ihonestly THOUGHT i missed talking to AP.
in similar convos with BH, he asked if i wanted to still be able to talk to him, i ridiculously told him, yes id like to be able to be friends with AP at some point in the future.
About the third time he asked me so about a month or two in, i was able to honestly say that i didnt miss it...i didnt want it, i had no ludicrous notions of being friends ever...he wasnt a friend to me..he used me jsut as i used him. i wasnt invested in him like i am with my true friends and my BH, i was invested in doing/saying what i needed to say to AP to be able to use him as i wanted to.
I am now a BW as well as a WW. I believe my BH/WH has had NC since shortly after Dday, however, i did ask him about looking at her profile on FB, and how often, and when the last time was. He honestly told me "a few days ago" which was about 6 weeks after his dday. It hurt, but I try to look at how i was feeling in my own situation. I absolutely meant every word i said about saving my marriage...but it took a lot of time and energy to get to my A and to maintain it for as long as i did, of course it was going to take a little time to get out of that fog, just as it takes time to not crave a cigareete when i try to quit smoking, or it takes time to not walk into a mall and blow all my money on cute new things, or any other shallow thing that makes one feel better about oneself. my communication with AP was like a learned behavior, i had to unlearn it and i feel sooo much better now. i am choosing to give my WH the benefit of the doubt that he will too in time unlearn to be curious about what shes doing etc.
idk if this helps you, but i meant every word i said and still do when i told my husband that i wanted us, even when i naively thought i wanted to "be friends"

Posts: 72 | Registered: Jun 2013
PhantomLimb
♀ Member
Member # 39668
Default  Posted: 2:56 PM, July 13th (Saturday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

if you were a remorseless WS, what did being 180ed or NC by your BS feel like on the receiving end? We're you just relieved? Glad to be free of it all?

My WS broke NC with his OW shortly after DDay #1 and took the affair underground. He started getting emotionally abusive/blaming in our conversations. DDay#2 happened and he told me he didn't want to R "right now". I initiated NC with him and told him I wanted a couple of months to myself. I wanted him to live the life he chose and I needed to get on my feet. I have no info on where he is at now in terms of his thinking, but, technically, he could contact me if he wanted to now.

At his point, I'm debating simply walking away entirely. Not even taking his calls if he tried. No trying to be friends, etc. We don't have kids. I found a new job and I'm about to get a new apartment. I've lost a lot personally and professionally with his A and if he didn't help me at all through my healing process.

If I maintain NC on my end to that point, does that even register on the remorseless WS's radar?

If I had my way, our breakup would have been mediated in MC so we could get closure, figure out where things broke down, become better people. Instead I got raged at. He hasn't shown me he can have a decent "closure" convo with me-- that he can help my process-- so I don't see why I would give him the chance to do more damage by talking to him again. At the same time, I'm sort of attached to two ideas: (1) that he knows if I continue to NC it's not because he's "damaged" me (his words) but because I don't trust him to communicate and be honest and don't want to subject myself to more crazy and (2) that I regain some of my dignity here by coming across as together and strong (even though I don't really feel that way most of the time)!


BS / D

Posts: 785 | Registered: Jun 2013
20WrongsVs1
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Member # 39000
Default  Posted: 5:07 PM, July 13th (Saturday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Maybe there aren't too many remorseless WSs on SI. In the early weeks I was definitely remorse-challenged, because I was so foggy.

When BH 180'd me I panicked. I realized I could actually lose him, and it helped snap me out of my delirium. In our case the 180 worked exactly like it's supposed to...with a WS who wants the M.

Sorry you're going through this, but IMO you are demonstrating a terrific amount of strength and dignity.


^^Everything I write, IMHO & YMMV.^^
fWW: 42, amazing H and two elementary-age kids.
Out beyond ideas of wrongdoing & rightdoing there is a field. I'll meet you there. When the soul lies down in that grass, the world is too full to talk about.

Posts: 774 | Registered: Apr 2013 | From: Redneck land
nlovemyfamily
♀ Member
Member # 15258
Default  Posted: 3:48 PM, July 14th (Sunday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

found this written on a blog and would love to hear from ohter WS or FWS the validity of the ideas written here!
"“Did I really love my affair partner? Did my affair partner truly love me?

"Frequent questions I hear on other blogs and message boards — Whether cheaters feel, or felt, honest and true love for their affair partner.

Most affairs last beyond a few weeks and months and some even years. Many will swear they are “in love” with their affair partner. That they found their “soul mate” in the affair.

Yet, is this true love? Was the relationship “real” or mostly living out a fantasy? Did we really love them?

The answer, not likely. Only each of us can answer that with 20/20 hindsight long after the affair is terminated and the embers extinguished. Looking back, I’m not sure to what extent I truly loved the OW, although at the time you could not have told me otherwise. I certainly felt like I was in love. Intensely. We clicked on every level. She seemed to be everything I wanted, everything I needed. I opened up my heart, soul, and brain to her completely. I was like an addict — completely hooked. “Love” was a word that went back and forth between us constantly. It certainly felt like love to me!

Certainly, you can get caught up in the illusion of love in any relationship — affairs are no different. I think that early on, in any passionate relationship, what we think of as “love” of the other person really isn’t. We don’t know them well enough or have history to really “love” them. What we are really saying is “I love how you make me feel about me”, even if we don’t realize it.

And certainly affairs are more prone to feeling intense feelings. Why? Because for most of us, we got involved with someone else because we are STARVING to get our needs met. Not just curious about being with someone else. Or that we occasionally felt like our spouse wasn’t there for us. But deep down all we care about is ourselves and getting what we want at any cost.

“Love” within the context of infidelity is an encounter between a person – the object of desire – and an experience – the passion of eros. It can leave one intoxicated with emotion that drives both decisions and behaviors in often inalterable ways. The result of this fusion is one of the most destructive decision a human can make. The fundamental error we make is that we confuse a romantic/friendship/erotic experience with a person who just happens to be a part of the encounter. You believe you MUST have that person in order to have that experience. Again, we are confusing how we feel about the person with exactly how they are making us feel about ourselves in the experience.

Then, drama of mythological proportion ensues. You collapse two worlds onto one another, failing to distinguish them as two distinct events that just happened in close proximity to one another. You confuse a person for an experience and attempt valiantly to translate that experience into something real. It isn’t real.

You confuse an emotional experience, i.e. the affair relationship, with the person who you are having the affair with and believe you “need” that person to keep and preserve that experience. Willing to risk all that you love and value to legitimize the affair, you call it “love.” Understanding this distinction can be one of the most important steps to ending an affair and recovering from infidelity.

Love, here, is a personally constructed narrative – a story – which we vehemently adhere to because we need it to be true.

After all, so much depends upon our belief that the affair is “real”. The possibility of “true love”, the confirmation that “soul mates” exist, the justification for destroying families, leaving spouses, children, jobs and friends – all MUST be justified with legitimacy and purpose. Otherwise, those of us in affairs are nothing but hedonistic idiots. So we have a huge capacity to convince ourselves that it was real. If we didn’t, how could we live with ourselves? It’s often only after the affair is over that we fully realize the truth of what we did and why we did it.

The stage is set for grandiosity and narcissistic self-indulgence. On this platform, all manner of illogical and nonsensical choices are made. We are in pursuit of a valid human need – deep intimacy and belonging. Yet, we are moving toward our fated demise. Authentic love, based on friendship, history and seasoned emotionality, can never result from a relationship started as an affair love, which is grounded in escape, deception and illicit illusions. Anything based upon deception is destined to fail. Period. Without integrity, life simply doesn’t work.

Even if you remove moral judgment out of the equation — although few would say that it was not an immoral choice — we still have to make a simple distinction about what is so commonly misunderstood in the delusion and stupor of the affair. The experience can never deliver on the illusions we seduce ourselves into believing.

Affair love is rooted in the attempt to legitimize an illusion. In fact, that’s the source of its power since so much is at stake.

A real relationship cannot compete with an affair. The novelty, forbidden, and surrealistic nature of an affair relationship beats a real relationship any day with its sobering demands. Within its pursuit lies everything it means to be human.

Real relationships compete unsuccessfully for the illusion affair relationships deliver – the anticipation that one’s deep longings for contact, wholeness, completeness and soulfulness are met. The affair promises to transcend and annihilate the mundane status quo of so many of our marital arrangements.Nothing could be further from the truth. First, however, you must distinguish between the fantasy of an affair versus the real authentic intimacy in a marital committed relationship.

Here’s the straight truth: an affair is a bastardization of every one of those needs. It exploits the normal and natural right to human intimacy by selling a cheap version of a hollow escape. It is a shallow relief that barely scratches the surface of authentic love, a commitment to a life partner who knows and loves you despite disappointments. Real relationships have a way of rubbing our noses in the slime of life. It is within the alchemy of that authenticity that true love can be encountered.

Affair love is an illusion, based on a lie, fueled by fantasy, protected by self-justification, insecurity and ego. It NEVER delivers on any expectations. Is it any wonder why real relationships, based on an affair, fail at a rate twice that of divorce?

Authentic love embraces contradiction that affair love cannot. The “contradiction” I speak of here is you. You are a contradiction. As a human being in a relationship, you are going to be inconsistent, hypocritical, have bad days and good, be at your best and often at your worst, and have phases of life where there may be little lovable about you. Authentic love, of which I was surprised by, is a quality and intensity of love sustainable and real because it is NOT contingent upon the emotions or circumstances to be just right.

Contrast that with Affair love, where you are on a perpetual honeymoon and the emotional tone is always courtship behavior. You are insulated from reality because this shallow relationship never touches the light of day since it requires deception to sustain it. You always look good, sound good, smell good and think you’re good – just like reality… right? It’s a house of cards waiting to implode.

The result is a perfect storm of illusion and flight. The primary relationship doesn’t have a chance to survive because it cannot compete with a fantasy untested by the sobriety of reality. Your affair relationship thrives on the fantasy-based love of exhilaration and novelty.

Soul mates are created, NOT found. True love exists but not for the faint of heart or narcissistically challenged. Success has requirements. So does real love. It requires you to know yourself intimately, all of you – how you’ve been wounded by life and how to evolve as a person capable of loving another. It requires you to be transparent, authentically asking for what you want and being willing to enthusiastically give back. It requires you to grow up. Groveling when things go wrong is out. Keeping your integrity and standing firm on your commitment is in. It requires you to stand for what you know is possible, despite terrible circumstances, and demonstrate the courage of a warrior, even when you don’t feel like it, even when you’ve lost that loving feeling, even when you aren’t getting your needs met on a regular basis.

I cant thank you enough for this blog. I am in a 5 year relationship started as an affair and ended my long term marriage. Up until a couple of days ago, I would have sworn i am madly and passionately in love with this person. The dilemma is that I believe (based on a lot of therapy and a lot of reading) that I am now seeing it for what it is…an addiction, but the other person is still in complete denial.

I was there too. A 3 year affair and in the throws of a divorce. I’m glad I turned away from that path, although it was difficult. Looking back, I see that my affair was not only the biggest lie of my life, but it was at least 50% a self-indulgent illusion. I wish you clear thinking and peace.

I’ve saved this page as a favorite and its the first thing I read when I login my computer at work each morning. I always knew the right path, but I justified something terrible with all of the things described so well here. Thanks for putting this up. I’ve read everything google has to offer regarding this topic, but this page is the only one that slapped me in the face and forced me to deal with things honestly. I am a hedonistic idiot, but I’ve got a good chance of coming out of this with the damage self contained. Today is better than yesterday and I’m looking forward to tomorrow. Maybe next week I’ll be the man I should be, for myself and my family.

The article really spoke to me too (although i wish I had seen it 2-3 years ago when the thing was just getting going!). It’s why I reprinted it here. It’s a bit harsh, but there is much truth in it.
Don’t worry about being a “hedonistic idiot” — we all are. nobody is saying we are without sin and responsibility here for very self-indulgent, immature reasons. We are. But hopefully we learn from all of this and become that better person. We are all human, after all and can become the men/women we are called to be."


Posts: 415 | Registered: Jul 2007 | From: nj
Arnold01
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Member # 39751
Default  Posted: 5:22 PM, July 14th (Sunday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Spideysense, thanks for your comments. They help tremendously and my FWH sounds just like you describe yourself in the early weeks after NC started. I know my FWH is struggling with the everyday stuff - mentioned how much he wanted to tell her about activities our kids have signed up for, that sort of thing - rather than deep "meaning of life" conversation. They saw each other multiple times per day for months because of school activities, kids being in the same sports clubs, etc. so I guess I can understand getting used to someone always being there and then that suddenly being gone. When our MC suggested the other day to FWH that he was in love with how the OW made him feel and not actually with her, my FWH denied that strenuously and told me the MC doesn't know what she's talking about and she's 100% wrong. Hopefully with time and more reflection, he'll figure it out.

I really appreciate your taking the time to share your story. It's what I needed to get me through a tough day.


D-Day: June 2013 (discovered a 2 month EA followed by 3 week PA)
NC established: August 2013
Reconciling

Posts: 91 | Registered: Jul 2013
UnexpectedSong
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Member # 21761
Default  Posted: 8:05 PM, July 14th (Sunday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

If I maintain NC on my end to that point, does that even register on the remorseless WS's radar?

Don't worry about how it registers to him. Decide what you want and go with it. As soon as you wonder, you are trying to control him and that gives him power.


WW(SA)
"Feedback is the breakfast of champions." - Boris Becker

Posts: 6046 | Registered: Nov 2008 | From: California
UnexpectedSong
♀ Member
Member # 21761
Default  Posted: 8:07 PM, July 14th (Sunday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

found this written on a blog and would love to hear from ohter WS or FWS the validity of the ideas written here!
"“Did I really love my affair partner? Did my affair partner truly love me?

What's your real question? What does it matter if the affair feeling was "real love"?


WW(SA)
"Feedback is the breakfast of champions." - Boris Becker

Posts: 6046 | Registered: Nov 2008 | From: California
PhantomLimb
♀ Member
Member # 39668
Default  Posted: 9:00 PM, July 14th (Sunday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Do you have to be so logical, UnexpectedSong?

[This message edited by PhantomLimb at 9:01 PM, July 14th (Sunday)]


BS / D

Posts: 785 | Registered: Jun 2013
UnexpectedSong
♀ Member
Member # 21761
Default  Posted: 11:08 PM, July 14th (Sunday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Do you have to be so logical, UnexpectedSong?

To quote Adrian Monk - it's a gift... and a curse.


WW(SA)
"Feedback is the breakfast of champions." - Boris Becker

Posts: 6046 | Registered: Nov 2008 | From: California
PhantomLimb
♀ Member
Member # 39668
Default  Posted: 11:11 PM, July 14th (Sunday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I'm trying to wallow in self-pity over here and you are forcing me to be responsible for my own emotional health? Geez!


BS / D

Posts: 785 | Registered: Jun 2013
powerthroughpain
♂ New Member
Member # 39165
Default  Posted: 2:22 AM, July 15th (Monday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

My stbxww said to me today that she didn't regret the affair and that it took courage for her to have it in order to change the status quo of our relationship. Prior to this statement, I had already decided to divorce her, of which she knows. This statement only confirms my position. My question, do these statements resonate with any wayward and I'm assuming she is still deep in the fog.


14 years together 1 dd 3 yold
5 years married
WW dday 4/23/13 8 month ea/pa
WW in ic
Separated
No contact finally 6/3/13
Not working on r
Filing for d

Posts: 29 | Registered: May 2013 | From: powerthroughpain
UnexpectedSong
♀ Member
Member # 21761
Default  Posted: 3:53 AM, July 15th (Monday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I'm trying to wallow in self-pity over here and you are forcing me to be responsible for my own emotional health?

I'm all for savoring the self-pity! Just don't let him know...

Look for some of the old timers' posts in JFO. You have already lost him. Closure is overrated. There was no "point" where you two started going wrong. There is no talking that will salvage anything - unless both parties want it.

You did not cause this. You cannot cure this. You cannot control this.

His leaving the marriage is completely on him. You are being super strong - stay strong.


WW(SA)
"Feedback is the breakfast of champions." - Boris Becker

Posts: 6046 | Registered: Nov 2008 | From: California
Spideysense
♀ Member
Member # 39591
Default  Posted: 9:10 AM, July 15th (Monday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Arnold...
I am glad something I said was able to help you. I am always amazed by just how alike those of us that have A are...we don't think we are until the glasses come off, but my goodness are we.
It is constant development, what i would have said in the week before my dday, and then in the week after, and then in the month after, and now six months after, etc. My eyes are constatntly opening to all the things they were previously shut to, regarding myself, my A, and my marriage. best of luck to you.

Posts: 72 | Registered: Jun 2013
PhantomLimb
♀ Member
Member # 39668
Default  Posted: 8:22 PM, July 15th (Monday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I see what you mean, UnexpectedSong. Even rereading my original question, it's clear that I'm just trying to get a sense of some control over the situation.

I haven't accepted that I've lost him to the point that he wouldn't want to at least have a "nicer" final convo and/or take back some of the blame shifting, etc. It's an odd thing to realize that you "lost" someone and you had no idea/were the last one to find out.


BS / D

Posts: 785 | Registered: Jun 2013
crossroads2010
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Member # 30213
Default  Posted: 8:18 AM, July 21st (Sunday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

something is bothering me as I approach antiversay season...a year after A, OW called my H and I called her back immediately on his phone...she was surprised...one thing she told me in her ramblings was that I had beautiful children...they are grown, but she has been in contact with WS over years several times I am sure. My question is why? would she mention my kids...this is poison for a BS...did she know this?

Posts: 509 | Registered: Nov 2010
dindy
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Member # 38424
Default  Posted: 12:47 PM, July 22nd (Monday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Hello, BS here, though separated from xWS. There is something that pops into my mind every now and then and I wondered if any WS' could answer.
My xWS had over a year long EA/PA. Before we split he said that he and OW always talked of ending their A as it was wrong and they should focus on rebuilding their own relationships with their BS'. The PA ended a few weeks before DDay as OW moved to another city to be withher GF though the texting and EA still continued.
Then after xWS and I split up I managed together a little bit of TT from xWS (mostly after I sent angry texts and he would reply angrily telling me a truth followed by 'so now you know!').
Anyway, during one of these texts I questioned him on how he could love this OW as surely if he did then he would have left me to be with her? He then said he would be with her except that he is respecting her wishes to be with her GF.
I find this confusing as before we split during false R he said that he was just being selfish and chose to have an A which he knew was wrong.
Any thoughts?

Posts: 433 | Registered: Feb 2013 | From: uk
BaxtersBFF
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Member # 26859
Default  Posted: 10:30 PM, July 24th (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Dindy,

I'm not sure I follow your situation. ..but it sounds like your WH changed his story and the most recent version seems to take some reaponsibility off hin while at the same time he is think he deserves commendation for respecting someone's wishes...is that right?

So his relationship didn't end because of him, but rather he let her go so she could be qith her GF?

Sounds a bit crazy. Or maybe illogical is a better term.


WH - 44
BW - gerrygirl

Posts: 6047 | Registered: Dec 2009 | From: Boise
BaxtersBFF
♂ Member
Member # 26859
Default  Posted: 10:34 PM, July 24th (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Crossroads,

It could be the OW letting you know that she is familiar with your kids, or that you WH talked about the kids with her. That would be the spiteful side.

The other option is that she is mentioning the kids as a sort of apogy or concession that your kids are beautiful and something she will never have.


WH - 44
BW - gerrygirl

Posts: 6047 | Registered: Dec 2009 | From: Boise
crossroads2010
♀ Member
Member # 30213
Default  Posted: 10:51 AM, July 25th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Thanks Baxter...in retrospect that was really probably not a qestion for this forum...more of question for an OW...not really a WS....a post in general recently just reminded me of it and it has always peplexed me...my WHs first A with her was almost 25 years ago and I have always wondered if she ever saw my son...then a toddler. My 4 year antiversary sine ddayand his last A with her is approaching in the fall and I am getting a little triggery...read my next post please...

Posts: 509 | Registered: Nov 2010
crossroads2010
♀ Member
Member # 30213
Default  Posted: 11:15 AM, July 25th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Need WS perspective on trust...and survival of the M.

My H way of "making up" for the A and trying to rebuild our marriage is planning tripand and things for us to do togther...I understand this and do appreciate this and I have told him so. Although I need different things from him to feel safe and to really rebuild our relationship, we do not/ cannot talk about the A anymore...recently I felt like he was trying to find ways to go to an overnight work-related event close to where the OW lives without me and I got mad and blurted out something to that effect...he got really angry and basically said that he had done all that he could to give us time together and he could not believe that I still did not trust him...I told him that he could not even imagine the effort and progress that I have made after 4 years and that he would never understand that b/c he had not experienced it and left it at that. He say that we are doomed to live under this shadow...especially me...if I could not trust him, then he accused me of sneeking up on him on the phone and computer. Truth is I am never going to trust him like I did before...I do love him and I told him so and I have prety much decided that I am not going to really worry about whether I trust him just try to be happy that we still have a life together and that I still love him and keep trying to understand and hope that he loves me in his own way. When I said I was sorry for the outburst...I really should not have said what I said..and that I loved him, he said that not trusting was no way to show it.

I guess what i am wondering is does a WS put trust of the BS as a condition that must be met if the M is to survive....could you ever feel successfully recovered and okay with the knowlege that the BS doesn't trust you? I just keep thinking that even thinking that I hide my spying..which I really do way less of now...and my suspicions and triggers from him, one day he is just going to say she is NEVER goin to trust me...what the hell....


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