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I Can Relate     Print Topic    
User Topic: BS Questions for WS's - Part 7
BaxtersBFF
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Member # 26859
Default  Posted: 6:50 AM, September 19th (Wednesday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

hurting1600,

I agree with what NothingElseMattrs has told you.

To your original concerns about her state of mind/what's going on/why isn't she doing the work, the EA may have been pretty deep on her part, it may be that your WW is really holding onto the "good" memories of the EA. She may be mourning the loss of what she thought she had.

If she ever gets to the point of really digging into it, she may realize that she is afraid to admit to herself that she did such a thing, and was willing to take it further. She may come to realize that she is holding onto the feelings of the A to keep from facing her own fears.

Have there been times when you've seen reality hit her? Have there been times when you've thought she was starting to get it?


WH - 44
BW - gerrygirl

Posts: 6054 | Registered: Dec 2009 | From: Boise
tooloyal
♀ Member
Member # 36310
Default  Posted: 6:57 AM, September 19th (Wednesday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

What kind of useful questions can a WS ask themselves to help them 'get it' with regards to A?
My WS says he 'gets it', but I am not so sure. Sometimes he finds it difficult dealing with the reality of the A, because of all the pain involved for both of us, which I can understand. He is willing to talk/answer anything I want to know about A, but is reluctant to volunteer in the way he did in the first 2 months after DD (we are 6 months into R). At times he appears to hide behind an 'emotional wall', I feel this is when he realises the impact of A, and he withdraws a bit. WS says he is not sure what more there is to talk about as he has told me everything, which I believe, but I do feel he avoids dealing with his own emotions regarding A (maybe it is too uncomfortable for him?). Perhaps I look at it wrongly......but do WS not have to realise how 'false' the A was and any so called emotions, so they can begin healing themselves as well as their M? Surely understanding why/what led them into A, (especially when it is completely out of character) will help them protect M and make it stronger in the future?
Can any WS help? How were they able to see reality/clarity of A? Can WS's ever see the actions of OW clearly....they appear to have no moral conscience, integrity, or respect for WS or his M (in our case OW knew H was married, but pursued him regardless) Am I right/wrong in thinking genuine remorse can only be achieved when WS really 'gets it'? Does it mean, coming out of the 'fog'....not compartmentalising....re writing M to justify A....or making A more than it was.....when in reality it was lies, deceipt, secrecy, ego boosting....my WS said he would not have found OW interesting/attractive in different circumstances. WS was in a difficult place at the time, lonley (due to our work schedules) pressure at work, low self esteem, she made a 'play' for him (knowing he was M), used excessive ego boosting, was available (doesn't work) took advantage of his vulnerability....he was weak
I don't want my wonderful H to suffer, he made a terrible mistake that we both feel the pain of. I want this to be an opprtunity to repair and rebuild our M. I have no interest in any kind of retribution, I want to be able to move forward without prolonging the pain. At times its difficult/confusing because of the fluctuating emotions involved (for both of us). H takes full responsibility for his part in A, but has difficulty blaming OW, despite her initiating A, he sees it as his own weakness in going along with it. Im hoping by trying to understand how this has happened we can heal together and make our M better than ever before.

Posts: 126 | Registered: Jul 2012 | From: UK
BaxtersBFF
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Member # 26859
Default  Posted: 7:06 AM, September 19th (Wednesday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Stillhere97,

I think most of the WS's here on SI have found their why, or are actively working on finding their why. There is often a lot of "I don't know why" mixed in along the way, so WS's are encouraged to keep going and keep working until they get there. Sometimes it will take a couple years to get there.

There is a lot of disbelief written by WS's who are trying to figure it all out. The goal though would be to accept it instead of saying "I can't believe I did that."

A drunken ONS may not have the same type of answer to why as an LTA or an EA. The fact remains though that he was a willing participant, and that is really what should be examined, not necessarily the act. All it took was a few drinks and being out of town. What was it that made it possible for him to step over that boundary?


WH - 44
BW - gerrygirl

Posts: 6054 | Registered: Dec 2009 | From: Boise
tooloyal
♀ Member
Member # 36310
Default  Posted: 7:23 AM, September 19th (Wednesday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Any OW willing to give an insight as to why they do it? I must stress I am not judging or anything like that, just trying to understand why someone would deliberstely make a play for a MM (referring to our own situation).
The OW in our situation knew H was M, but still encouraged A. Used excessive flattery, ego boosting, was always available offered 'advice/encouragement/support' on WS ending M (even though H made it clear he didn't know if he wanted M to end). WS was in a bad place at the time, erratic shifts, lonely (due to our conflicting work schedules) very low self esteem, feeling vulnerable.....OW doesn't work, made it easy for him to feel needed by saying things like 'Im besotted by you' (1st week), 'I love you', (2/3rd week) along with other 'similar' things....
As I said before, Im not judging only trying to understand why someone would intiate an A knowing the devastation, pain it likely to cause, especially to BS, when there are unattached men everywhere......

Posts: 126 | Registered: Jul 2012 | From: UK
NothngElseMattrs
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Member # 35917
Default  Posted: 8:06 AM, September 19th (Wednesday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Tooloyal, the tone of your first post makes me think it seems you are trying to take charge of your WH's healing. He has to want to do it himself. He has to want to get the answers, and that means IC, reading, journaling. Also, you say you want him to blame OW and seem to want to point your finger at OW... Who cares about her as long as she is out of your lives permanently? He *should* be taking responsibility and not blameshifting to her. I think this is a good sign. Are you looking for him to hate her? There are always threads about "should the WS have to HATE the OP in order for the BS to be satisfied". I'm in the camp of people who think that feeling nothing towards the OP is best. I used to hate hate hate OM's stinking guts for being a dirtbag predator. Now I just don't waste thoughts on him at all. I need to own my shit and he is a non factor. I am not the victim, I am responsible. I do think that's important.

I can't answer your OW perspective questions, as OM was not married. I'm sorry.


"Is all that we see or seem
But a dream within a dream?"

Posts: 496 | Registered: Jun 2012 | From: The wind before the storm
BaxtersBFF
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Member # 26859
Default  Posted: 8:21 AM, September 19th (Wednesday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Tooloyal,

A while ago there was a guy who posted something about this. His situation was different of course, but he just kept asking why until he couldn’t take it any further. Each time he answered a question, he asked why to that answer. It worked for him, and has worked for others.

I’ve used the phrase “be honest with myself” for a while. Whatever answer I encountered along the way, I gauged whether I was being honest with myself or if it was something that allowed me to not accept full responsibility for my choices and actions.

It will come down to whatever works for your WH.

Not sure if I’m reading your situation correctly, but it sounds like you have all the details of the A. He may be tired of rehashing that subject, but if you need to talk about it more, then he should be willing to do that. Digging into the why’s of the A is different than talking about the actual A itself. Many WS’s are just as confused by their downfall as the BS’s.

On the subject of the A being false…my opinion may not be popular, but if the A and the emotions were false, we wouldn’t be here. The things your WH experienced were very real to him at the time, even though those feelings came about through lies, deceit, and poor decisions. Being able to accept what they’ve done and “feel” it is one of the first steps toward healing.

At some point, I was able separate the A from the MOW. Once I was able to do that, it was much easier to see the MOW for who she was (not that it mattered…). I used to think that I would not have ever had an A if just one thing had been different. I used the phrase “perfect storm” to describe what and how it all happened. Now I can see that it was more than that. It was something that would have happened eventually because of my own poor boundaries and misperceptions of myself. Simple communication would have helped me to never go down that road.

WS was in a difficult place at the time, lonley (due to our work schedules) pressure at work, low self esteem, she made a 'play' for him (knowing he was M), used excessive ego boosting, was available (doesn't work) took advantage of his vulnerability....he was weak
Why are you giving him these excuses? The OW may have pursued him, but he went along with it. He wasn’t weak. He had much more going on than can be summed up as being weak.

Your WH doesn’t have to suffer. He may know he made a terrible mistake (choice) but the fact is that he made it. It can be an opportunity to repair and rebuild, but he has to do some work on himself to help make that a reality. It won’t happen quickly. It could take him a year or more to do the necessary work.

To your second post, obviously I’m not a WW, but I think I can answer…After all, most of the WS’s here were either an OW or an OM.

So, really we have the same reasons as your WH. Poor boundaries, low self esteem… and yes, some of us were the ones who pursued the OP.

I knew the OW was M. She knew I was M. The impact to our spouses was not something that was discussed. It was something I know I avoided thinking about and when I did think about it, I found reasons that made me feel like I was right in my choice to keep going in the A.

IMO, you may need to hold your WH’s feet to the fire. He is extremely lucky to have you and that you want to help him. I think he probably realizes that. Just don’t make this process too easy on him. He has to do some very hard work, and he has to decide to do it for himself.


WH - 44
BW - gerrygirl

Posts: 6054 | Registered: Dec 2009 | From: Boise
tooloyal
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Member # 36310
Default  Posted: 10:01 AM, September 19th (Wednesday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Thanks for your views guys, I appreciate it. I think I have been slightly misunderstood with a couple of things, I know it comes accross as though I want to have 'control' over my WS part in R, but I guess what I really want is for the pain to stop, the trigger moments, the insecurity, the lack of trust....those things and move forward with life. I know WS is 110% responsible for A, and he does own that responsibility. As for blaming OW, I didn't mean WS should put the blame on her, only that she should share some of the blame as she was the one who intiated the whole thing, but as OW is single she is free to choose what kind of relationships she has, H was not free to choose..... :(
Its hard for me because I know the OW, although she claimed to H she couldn't remember me, they were both in the same motorbike club, so she knew about our M. I suppose as a BS I keep looking for something to help me understand it better, but it looks like the WS are as confused by their actions as the BS! My H is willing to put everything into our R, maybe you're right, I need to step back a little and let him set the pace......

[This message edited by tooloyal at 2:32 PM, September 19th (Wednesday)]


Posts: 126 | Registered: Jul 2012 | From: UK
HurtYetHealing
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Member # 34376
Default  Posted: 3:43 PM, September 19th (Wednesday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I'm curious as to what a WH "gets" from chasing after someone much younger than him.

I assume the ego boost of being with a young girl is part of it. My question I guess is more towards the mentality of a child that age compared to that of a much older man?

Is it because he feels wiser? That way she'll look up to him?

This is a redundant question. Trust me I know. I'm well aware that they always affair down.

Lately I seem to be struggling with the age more than anything; especially because the OW in my case is 4 years older than our oldest daughter.


Me-32 BW, Him-34 fWH
5 amazing children
Dday: December 2, 2011
M: 14 years(13@JFO), together for 18 (17@JFO) Status: Roller coaster of R
It takes a heart to forgive, and a brain to move on.

Posts: 706 | Registered: Jan 2012 | From: New Jersey
whatnow999
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Member # 35494
Default  Posted: 5:22 PM, September 19th (Wednesday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I'm curious as to what a WH "gets" from chasing after someone much younger than him.
I assume the ego boost of being with a young girl is part of it. My question I guess is more towards the mentality of a child that age compared to that of a much older man?

Is it because he feels wiser? That way she'll look up to him?

This is a redundant question. Trust me I know. I'm well aware that they always affair down.

Lately I seem to be struggling with the age more than anything; especially because the OW in my case is 4 years older than our oldest daughter.

HurtYetHealing,

I think the whole age thing is a non-issue really. My wife is the same way. She obsesses about the age of the OW. Most were younger than me... in the 5-10 years younger range.

I never sought out an OW because of age though. I'm probably attracted to younger women, but that is kind of the norm, isn't it? I think with an affair its more an opportunity deal. When I wanted to cheat I would have easily slept with someone who was 25 or 30. It just turned out the OW who was at the club that night and liked me was 19. I didn't pursue her because of her age. Its more coincidental.

There is no ego boost with an affair b/c of age. You can't brag to your friends. You can't show off the girl. The only ego boost is the general one. That someone else was into the WS so much. I don't think that is specific or related to age.

20 isn't a child. I'm not trying to argue with you are deny your feelings but its very frustrating to hear that. My BW says similar things from time to time. A 20 y.o. or 22 y.o. is fully capable of making her own decisions. Some can be very mature and very smart. 20 is an adult.


Me, 30, Husband
Her, 29, Wife
One Daughter, One Son

Posts: 232 | Registered: May 2012
broken <3
♀ Member
Member # 35098
Default  Posted: 6:21 PM, September 19th (Wednesday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Hi there!
First of all I want to thank the waywards that have been open and honest in this thread to answer these questions.
My question stems from my fWS saying he's told me everything - Im not sure if I believe that. So - how can one overcome the fear of the whole truth? I think he's doing that because in some twisted way he doesn't want to hurt me more?
I constantly get the "I don't know, I don't remember" crap and TT to death... Is there any validity in these statements (ie - I don't remember/can't remember)?? Or is he thinking I'm a mushroom (keeping me in the dark and feeding me bull$hit).


Me - BS mother of 10month old identical twin girls (conceived during HB)
Him - serial cheater
R? Still not sure if this is a deal breaker...

Posts: 459 | Registered: Mar 2012 | From: West coast Canada
NothngElseMattrs
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Member # 35917
Default  Posted: 6:45 PM, September 19th (Wednesday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Broken<3,
Was it a loooong time ago? Alcohol/drugs involved?

Otherwise, "I can't remember" seems a stretch to me.

Is he only confessing to as much as you have evidence of? Or is he forthcoming about facts you would never have otherwise found out about? If he keeps TTing, he probably is only telling you as much as he "thinks you can handle and still R." And then when you surprise him and keep staying despite the latest TT, then maybe he will tell you more.

What specific questions do you ask that you get the IDK/I can't remember response?


"Is all that we see or seem
But a dream within a dream?"

Posts: 496 | Registered: Jun 2012 | From: The wind before the storm
broken <3
♀ Member
Member # 35098
Default  Posted: 7:01 PM, September 19th (Wednesday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I do believe he is confessing just the parts I've found and not elaborating on it.
One part of his As was back over 5 years ago - I found the emails stating he did indeed attend a swingers sex party - when asked about that he states yes he did go, got turned on, naked - ready to have at er - fondeled a female and then, somehow, got grossed out (by looking around at other men there) took his condom off and left. - so I can somewhat see why he may not remember that - it was over 5 years ago.
But... Since then and even some before, he's consistently fished on aff, CL and yahoo personals (from what I can see). He's admitted to meeting about a dozen over the whole of our relationship but insists nothing happened. This is where the crazy making in my head starts. Perhaps the idk comes from that - there was just so many times he met op?
He's been a former since about a year and half now - so when pressed about his newer stuff - he says he had a kissing episode (again with a CL girl) and picked up some in the car and just drove around?? This was during our S - but we were in counseling and I clearly stated no dating or sex with anyone but each other - so that hurts mega. He's been back home since April 2011 and I've known all along (or had the nagging feelings for most of my relationship - but chalked it up to his weed addiction) but foud out a shit storm of emails etc last year and been getting TT since. He wants to rugsweep.
ETA: when asked about more details he says he gets ill thinking about it - says he wants to be with me, that he made a massive mistake , sometimes he gets defensive "I've told you already" or sulks.

[This message edited by broken <3 at 7:19 PM, September 19th (Wednesday)]


Me - BS mother of 10month old identical twin girls (conceived during HB)
Him - serial cheater
R? Still not sure if this is a deal breaker...

Posts: 459 | Registered: Mar 2012 | From: West coast Canada
Lilypad
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Member # 36399
Default  Posted: 2:02 AM, September 20th (Thursday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

As I said before, Im not judging only trying to understand why someone would intiate an A knowing the devastation, pain it likely to cause, especially to BS, when there are unattached men everywhere......

I am a former OW and will try to answer as honestly as I can.

I am single I was not interested in any kind of permanent relastionship. I thought a MM would be fine as there was no committment.

Honestly, at the time I wasn't thinking about the effect of it on anyone else. I was only looking out for myself and on top of my drinking I just didn't make good decisions. I made decisions that made me happy only. Yes, selfish decisions. That is what happens when you have a drinking problem, you only care about yourself and how sorry you feel for yourself.

My drinking had a lot to do with how I have been behaving in the last 3 years. I accept full responsiblity for it as no one make me drink. My decision. Being a toxic and broken person is horrible and can bring about a lot of self pity. I think most OW's and OM's don't really feel good about themselves. How can they???

However, I have quit drinking, doing counselling and owning up to my shit and I know that I can change and be a better person than I was.

I wasn't always that drunken idiot. Took time to get there.

Hopefully I haven't offended anyone I am only speaking for me and am not out to hurt any BS's.

[This message edited by Lilypad at 2:07 AM, September 20th (Thursday)]


“You can make mistakes, but you are not a failure until you blame others for those mistakes.” -John Wooden

Posts: 120 | Registered: Aug 2012 | From: Canada
kchip
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Member # 36365
Default  Posted: 4:12 AM, September 20th (Thursday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Hello again, you guys probably know my story by now with WW.

Anyways, Its 9 weeks out now and I am getting a great deal more of emotion from WW lately. NC now for 5 weeks. I think the worst of withdrawal might be ending but she is angry with me. I am guessing she is still pissed for outing mOM to his BW. He threw her under the bus that same night and broke it off.

So my question is: Did you experience this kind of anger towards your BS for outing the A? What made you think you had the right to be angry?


Me: BH (42)
2 boys, age 10/7
D Day: July 15, 2012
Status: DIVORCING
You know that movie, Sleeping With the Enemy? Well I am Julia Roberts in that one......sighhhh
"When we hit our lowest point, we are open to the greatest change"

Posts: 471 | Registered: Aug 2012 | From: FL
nlovemyfamily
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Member # 15258
Default  Posted: 5:02 PM, September 20th (Thursday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

For the WS and FWS who did you think you would grow old with? Did you want AP to take care of you in failing health in old age? What about all the years your long term spouse cared for you and intended to grow old with and take care of each other in sickness and in health, in good times and in bad?

Posts: 415 | Registered: Jul 2007 | From: nj
heartbroken0903
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Member # 27879
Default  Posted: 5:07 PM, September 20th (Thursday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Kchip

XH outed the A to our mutual friends and his family. I outed myself to my family and several bosses & coworkers (XH and I work together). I wasn't angry. He had every right to tell people; after all, it was the truth.


Me: WS, 30s
XH: BS, 40s
No kids

Married 2.5 years
D-day 3/6/10
Divorced 5/14/10

Reconciling after divorce


Posts: 1921 | Registered: Mar 2010 | From: the cat's meow
tooloyal
♀ Member
Member # 36310
Default  Posted: 6:54 AM, September 22nd (Saturday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Just want to say thanks to Lilypad for saying why she got involved with a MM, it would be good to hear reasons of some more OW.In our situation, it seems OW had a game plan & my H was the target of this game
Knew about M from day one, said 'now I've found a good man, I need to share him....'

Posts: 126 | Registered: Jul 2012 | From: UK
BaxtersBFF
♂ Member
Member # 26859
Default  Posted: 12:04 PM, September 22nd (Saturday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

nlove,

For the WS and FWS who did you think you would grow old with? Did you want AP to take care of you in failing health in old age?

I generally didn't think that far in the future. I was 38 when the EA happened, so was MOW. It was not a thought when the EA happened. Eventually, those wonderings started coming into my head. I had two thoughts about this. One was that I doubted it would last very long, mostly because I believed if MOW got together, that she would cheat on me (again...long story...). Ironic, huh? Second, I imagined two wrinkled, old grey-haired cheaters stuck with each other because, if we made it any length of time, nobody else would want anything to do with us. I would have alienated my entire family, and the few friends I did have wouldn't have stuck around to watch the train wreck.

What about all the years your long term spouse cared for you and intended to grow old with and take care of each other in sickness and in health, in good times and in bad?

Further down the road, after the thoughts listed above, I would think about my future. And, believe it or not, I imagined being wrinkled and old with my wife. And I imagined being happy and content with that. BUT, when I had these thoughts, I was actively trying to distance myself from my BW. Anytime a kind thought entered my head about my BW, I would push it away. At the time of the EA, I was fully convinced that the whole mess was my BW's fault.

Now I know what I almost lost.


WH - 44
BW - gerrygirl

Posts: 6054 | Registered: Dec 2009 | From: Boise
BaxtersBFF
♂ Member
Member # 26859
Default  Posted: 12:16 PM, September 22nd (Saturday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

kchip,

My BW didn't specifically out the EA, but I was angry after the EA ended. The anger was there because my BW was intruding on the fantasy. She kept throwing reality in my path. Facing reality meant I had to admit I was wrong about everything. The anger was just the reaction, it had nothing to do with feeling I had a right to be angry.

It is all so illogical. I doubt your WW is considering whether or not she has the right to be angry. It just isn't part of the equation for a WS IMO. It is all about having to admit you are wrong.


WH - 44
BW - gerrygirl

Posts: 6054 | Registered: Dec 2009 | From: Boise
Lilypad
♀ Member
Member # 36399
Default  Posted: 1:18 AM, September 23rd (Sunday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Just want to say thanks to Lilypad for saying why she got involved with a MM, it would be good to hear reasons of some more OW.In our situation, it seems OW had a game plan & my H was the target of this game
Knew about M from day one, said 'now I've found a good man, I need to share him....'

You're welcome. I am sorry you are having to go thru this.

The OW & OM's are seriously screwed up and at the end of the day we are being selfish.

There are a few sites where alot of OW/OM's post, their reasoning makes sense to them. However, alot of them are very jealous of the wife and alot of them have been told that the husband has no intentions of leaving.

I definately took a good look at what I was doing when I starting reading the BS's stories here. I would never have even thought about engaging in this kind of behaviour 5 years ago.

Used excessive flattery, ego boosting, was always available offered 'advice/encouragement/support' on WS ending M (even though H made it clear he didn't know if he wanted M to end). WS was in a bad place at the time, erratic shifts, lonely (due to our conflicting work schedules) very low self esteem, feeling vulnerable.....

When people are in a bad place it is easy to stroke their egos and make them feel like you are the only one who can make them feel that way or make them feel better. Why deal with your reality when you can have a few hours of a fantasy.

At the end it is just about having someone else making you feel better and asserting a little control over them. Control you don't have in your own life.

It is really a facade. You don't fall in love in 2 weeks, really it is just an easy way to escape reality. I didn't have to deal with MM's home life and figured it had nothing to do with me.

Hope I am making sense.

If anyone has any questions and don't want to post please feel free to PM me. I really don't mind answering anyones questions.


“You can make mistakes, but you are not a failure until you blame others for those mistakes.” -John Wooden

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