When I found out that my H & her were having an A, I never told her H. My WH swears they never had sex. Instead, they sent pics & videos. Seems to me, they were very emotionally involved, due to all the time they spent on the phone and texting.
I know that people on SI feel very strongly about telling. But, I have my own reasons for not doing so and not because my WH told me not to.
So, my question is, because I didn't tell her H, do you think that she may still have feelings for my WH? Better known as "in the fog."
I ask this because it seems that when a WS gets caught, by their S, the fog lifts sooner & reality hits a little harder.
Some, not all, tend to see the A for what it really was.
I know I shouldn't care what she's feeling. But, my WH did tell her he loved her. I'm just looking to get some insight from a WS.
I hope this makes sense. It really is hard to put in words.
Thanks so much
Hey it's why I come on this thread, I feel the more honest I can be with everyone the better I can be to my BBF. I hope she's opening up more.
How does a WS forgive themself? My WS is becoming a heavy drinker, new problem. I just wonder if this is his guilt eating him up or just another character flaw?
I have not forgiven myself yet but am working my way towards it. TBH the drinking feels like a way to run away and hide. I have quit drinking all together and was not a heavy drinker to begin with. I want a clear mind for whenever the memories hit me to process them and deal with them as I should. He needs to confront his issues, what led him to the A, what he did to his M, and how he can improve himself not only for you and the M but for himself. Healing is a multi-layered process and forgiveness is somewhere in there but cannot be achieved until positive changes are made. Starting to drink is not a positive change and you need to cut that off before it gets worse.
Not sure if it always takes a S finding out about the A for the fog to lift. My situation is a bit different then your WH's but I came out of my fog solo and confessed to my BBF. Perhaps the ending of the A was enough for the fog to begin lifting for the OW. Perhaps she's still mired deep in whatever she thought she and WH had or perhaps she's found someone new. Yes you're right you shouldn't be caring about anything dealing with her but realistically it's going to happen. I hope for your sake that she's realized what her actions have wrought and that her fog has lifted as a result of NC and your WH trying to R with you. Hope that helped.
Both had DDays and TT
Do not let others be your reference for who you see in the mirror.
Stop allowing people to hurt you, because you don't love you enough to walk away.
I guess I wonder because both our sons still play hockey at the same rink and we see her.
Of course, I don't talk to her. My WH doesn't either. However, there are times I'm not there & my WH is.
I really hate that they can still see each other. Even if only from a distance.
During HB (after D-Day), have any WS's pictured OP or used HB as a mourning period for the A with OP?
If BS's have mind movies of OP during HB, do WS's as well?
I know this is a painful question.
During HB (after D-Day), have any WS's pictured OP or used HB as a mourning period for the A with OP?
I have never pictured OP during HB. I have thought omg how could I have ever thought to do this with OM. And on a couple of occasions, during oral I wonder if BBF is wondering if this is what it looked like and felt like for OM since giving oral is the only sexual act I engaged in with OM. I hate that OM's name even comes into my mind at all and thank god it is unique and I don't have to hear it unless we are talking about the A.
Edited for typos
[This message edited by Unagie at 11:40 PM, November 30th (Friday)]
WSís forgive themselves by doing the work. It is going to be different for everyone though. Some say they already have, others may take a while. My BW forgave me long before I realized I had forgiven myself. And that is what happened in my situation, I just realized one day that I had forgiven myself, but it was after a lot of work and a lot of acceptance about what I did.
The drinkingÖyep, itís an easy escape, easy trap. The alcohol allows the hurt and pain to be put on hold. It doesnít go away, it just isnít as sharp when you have a buzz. I donít think it is a character flaw. Alcoholism is a medical condition. Some might be more prone to it than others, but I donít think that is a character flaw.
Do you drink? Did your WH drink before? What does he say about it now? Have you expressed your concern to him?
She may still have feelings, or she may not. If she has no fond feelings for your WH, then perhaps she has realized how messed up she was. If she still looks at your WH fondly, then she hasnít done any work or made any realizations, and probably will. Doesnít really matter in the grand scheme of things.
Do you have any indication that her BH knows anything? I think you are right that there is a difference for the WS between confessing and getting caught. Even though youíve made the choice to not tell the BH, I think it is the only way you will get a true answer to your question.
How did your WH react? What kind of communication happened when/if an NC letter was sent?
Some people might agree, most will not, but there is some kind of emotional problem with all the WSís. My problem was that I couldnít communicate emotionally, and I do have some kind of emotional defect. Where it comes from, hard to say, but where it shows Ė in communicating with my wife, especially after the discovery. I had a talent, even much before, to say things that are wrong, in wrong moments, to wrong people. They will come out of my mouth faster than the thoughts. Before, as I was beloved husband in my wifeís eyes, it didnít count for much. After the discovery, I would cause a big crisis, directly or indirectly insulting my wife, or saying something that would be completely out of place, or out of emotions. For some time I was in the ďfogĒ, than after that I become defensive, than started feeling sorry for my self, and every stage I went through was reflecting in things I said. Unfortunately, there were couple of ďmeísĒ on that way, and each one of myself was thinking differently. Now, all of those characters form one picture in my wifeís head, and everything that has been said counts for something.
What I could do is to write Ė I had this talent as young to write well, and even now, I would be able to express my feelings much easier and with more precision than I would ever be able to describe them in plain talk. While she thought I just ďknew how to writeĒ I recently started thinking about it completely differently, and understood that subconsciously I was aware that I canít communicate properly and this was my way out. My love language was ďdoing thingsĒ. I remember that she asked me million times how much I love her, and I would always come up with one or two standard answers (now Iím writing the story about it).
The only true love declaration I had was when I wrote her a short story about love, which Is long forgotten. So, to cut the story short, although I donít know your story (I read your profile, though) I can understand the position your husband might be in . Maybe he doesnít know how to communicate emotionally, maybe those words are not intended to be said, maybe he was like that all his life, but you just didnít care before because it didnít hurt. Iím not saying that there is a solution for this but knowing about the problem sometimes can make it better. Yes, I felt scared many times. The longer we talked, the more scared I was. I had to concentrate while talking which words to use, which negations to choose, how not to sound insulting, arrogant, defensive. I admire most of the reconciled WSís on this site who ďsaid all the right wordsĒ. It sounds like they have done this with ease. And it is not easy. Maybe not for me, maybe not for your husband, and that takes me back to the emotional and communication problem.
I donít want to be defensive here, I donít want to sound like escapist, not to neglect the pain I have caused, Iím not saying that BSís donít have all the rights to be enraged at us, to demand, to expect, to be disappointed. Iím not saying that for a moment we should think about ourselves, what we feel, how we react. So, donít get me wrong. I donít say that BSís should be worried about what goes through our head, even less, why are we saying things we are, or acting as we are. We should be concentrated on their pain and how to make them feel better. But, in that process, we still make mistakes, we still have mixed feelings, when we are attacked our first reaction is to defend ourselves, if we can emotionally withdraw, we will do this, and we will shut down. I donít know, maybe there are many WSís that can change all of this about themselves overnight. Or maybe it is natural for them. For me, it was a long process of understanding things about myself and trying to analyze myself. And, even now, that Iím aware of some, or most of the things about myself, I still donít really know what is the right reaction. I only know what is the wrong reaction.
There is something else that makes this communication very hard, I donít know if it applies to your case, but it does to mine. Iím the only one who knows the whole story about myself in my marriage. If my wife thinks I will cheat again, she doesnít have the full picture, only her side of the story. I do have the full picture, because I know what is in my mind-that I will never cheat again. Now, how do I relate my truths, my decisions, my resolutions, everything I decided, everything I feel to her? It is not easy. But the conflict exists Ė she sees me as a person who is dishonest, rotten to the bone, lying, manipulative, somebody with no morals, responsibility. And I donít. I know, I was all of this for a long time, but I know Iím not any more. Those 2 pictures clash all the time in my head. Yes, I see myself the way she sees me most of the time, but not always. And there is no other way for her to see me, I understand this completely. It just makes is hard to communicate and sometimes, it triggers defensive mode.
Another thing that can cause emotional shut-down are triggers. WSís have triggers too. I would even go so far to say that WSís can have PTSD. They can go into depression sometimes for no reason, or triggered by the look at the happy couple, listening to a song on the radio, watching the movie. It happens. Even BSís depression can trigger their depression. Now, Iím not saying this to again defend any reaction I had, to minimize my shortfalls, but sometimes this depression occurs out of nowhere. Iím not saying that WSís should give up to this depression, but, it is not easy to fight it. It is like some kind of sickness, you really need to admit to yourself for a day, or couple of hours, that you are sick and start working on yourself immediately to be able to come out.
The last but not the least is love. BSís can not believe that their WSís can love them. And understandably so. How can somebody that loved somebody else, commit all those crimes. OK, there are really many people on this site, some of them show no remorse, and they are not even willing to reconcile. But, in most of the cases, WSís are not hanging around because they donít have anything better to do. Most of the time, they are there because they love their BSís, and they canít understand why they have turned the lives of their families into the living hell. If they are so dishonest and so bad, why wouldnít they leave straight away. Do they see the pain they have caused? It would be easier to leave, there will be no more pain to be seen. Have they chosen as a way of life, to have random sex with whoever in the days before the discovery? Now it would be a perfect time to bail-out and live the lives their BSís are suspecting they wanted all along. My wife tells me that I donít know what love is and the only reason I so desperately want us to reconcile is because Iím responsible and that responsibility is bigger than me. Why canít I be responsible by leaving and staying responsible for the rest of my life? Because I love her and I canít imagine my life without her. It is not that Iím afraid that I will be alone, I never was, it is that I'm afraid I will be without her. Yes, it is possible that WSís love their BSís, and I know this because Iíve got the whole picture. Iíve been inside my head and my heart more than once, more than thousand times. And there is no reason in the world why this feeling would be the false one.
I just want to point out that nothing here is written to miminize, deflect or shrink the guilt that WSís should and might feel. It is not about their emotions, Iím not saying that they should be accounted for, or even cared for. Iím just trying to answer your question and describe that there is much more than ďremorse-no remorseĒ going through WSís heads and that sometimes their reactions donít say much about their feelings. They donít have the right to act this way, sometimes it is a error on their side, but not every single time. Maybe, there are WSís that didnít make a single mistake in their days after the discovery, that have said all the right words in all the right moments, I will never know. I just know from all the thoughts, guilt, sadness, emotions that are constantly mixing in my head, it is very hard thing to do. Please, again, donít understand this as a any kind of excuse, there is none, if we are to help our spouses we have to be 150% not 100%. Iím just trying to illustrate the thoughts that might be happening on the other side, not to justify them but just to say they exist.
my WS has expressed that he's scared he will not say the right thing (this has happened many, many times during our false R and R, so I can somewhat understand this) but....what will take the anxiety away.
Our MC told us let go of the consequences. Assuming a person is not trying to hurt someone else and is speaking authentically... from the heart... Just say it.
Your H should just say what he thinks, what he feels. You are strong enough to hear it. If you cry, you cry. If you get mad, you get mad. You'll get over it.
[This message edited by UnexpectedSong at 10:28 PM, December 4th (Tuesday)]
Did any of you ever shut down and experience anxiety when your BS brings up her/his feelings, whether A related or not?
When bringing up the A I have had bad reactions. I have felt my stomach go topsy turvy and have thrown up, come back out the bathroom and finished the discussion. Nothing really stops me from finishing the conversation but yes I can have bad reactions to it. I've gone monotone so that I can go through all the answers and my reactions hit me hard after the conversation is over instead of during. I've broken down, gone into depression, had anxiety attacks, nervous, throwing up, the list goes on.
As for his feelings, sure they throw me into that loop sometimes as well. WS's have triggers too, my first counselor asked me to get a book on PTSD because I exhibited symptoms, not that she diagnosed me with it simply that I exhibited symptoms. Sometimes those triggers are harsh but it should not shut down the WS or make you stuck. WS needs to learn coping skills to get past these moments.
Your WH needs a new IC if those are the types of recommendations and encouragement he is receiving.
It can take a hell of a long time for a WS to realize that they need to step up and do the things you are asking about. Okay, maybe some folks don't like reading, and listening can be difficult for some too, but as a WS, to just say that this is all you're willing to give your partner, your spouse, the person you've made a commitment too and in your case, have 5 children with, well, to not realize that maybe the problem really is with the WS and it isn't someone else's fault, that can be a hard realization, but one that needs to be made, or he may lose more than he realizes.
I'm really sorry to hear that you are still stuck in this spot. Your WH's early stuff showed some promise. Please take care of yourself and your kids.
The point of this though is to say that anything can be taken too far. I feel my reasons for not doing these life changing things were valid but in our last argument just a few days ago he said "you told me you'd do anything to he with me and I know I'd do anything to be with you but I've given you things, extreme things because I believed we could make it through anything and you could prove to me you'd do anything to make this right but you failed the test twice. I guess you mean you'd do anything to a limit but I thought you meant the sky was the limit. It hurt so much when he said that. So yes I said I would do anything but it might depend on what your definition of anything is.
WH says that he never orgasmed with OW. He says he would be hard then go soft or be semi hard as soon as there was contact gentalia to gentalia. He just couldn't ever stay hard. I really don't believe him. I haven't said that to him yet but will in counseling. What keeps him having the affair for over a month, having sex or semi sex I guess you could says 4-5x a week if you can't orgasm? What keeps a woman coming back to a man who can't keep it hard for her? To me, this would translate into he isn't attracted to me. My first thought was he gave her oral sex and that may keep her coming back, he swears he didn't. I am slightly inclined to believe him since he is very selfish and doesn't take care of the other person and only thinks of his own pleasure. But again what would keep a woman coming back for a soft penis for over a month? What is the draw for him who can not complete the sexual act. I really am ready to call bull shit on this but would like any insight. Thank you
Edited to add that he was 26 at the time of the affair,Healthy as a horse. He has a yearly physical and fitness test due to his job. He has not suffered from ED before that I know of.
[This message edited by Blameitontherain at 8:28 PM, December 9th (Sunday)]
I hope it is enough, I always feel like I need to be doing more.