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I Can Relate     Print Topic    
User Topic: BS Questions for WS's - Part 7
lostmylight55
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Member # 33517
Default  Posted: 6:49 AM, November 3rd (Saturday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Tred,

IMO the greater factor is the depth of those feelings or which feelings are more dominant at any given time. In my case, they were superficial. At that point in my life I was very selfish, self-absorbed, shallow, arrogant and insecure.

There was more to the A than just the feelings towards the AP. There were the feelings about myself which were more important to me. And I didn't have a consistent feeling, but my overwhelming feeling was anxiety. That's the one I remember the most and it wasn't because of butterflies and happiness. My thought process and feelings at the time were like a bag of wet cats – a lot of fear, anger, chaos and confusion. Towards the end of the A the dominant feeling for the AP was annoyance which made my choice to get out much easier.

My reasons for trying to work on my M at that point were still focused on what was best for me in a selfish unhealthy way. Those traits I listed do not disappear or change as quickly as feelings do.

I also think that people get tied into feelings of rejection. They can think they are missing a person when what might be happening is not being able to deal with rejection from that person. I didn't have that rejection from the AP to contend with. Every situation is different though. Hope that helps.


My Boundaries are firm: Trespassers will be shot on sight.

Posts: 75 | Registered: Oct 2011
UnexpectedSong
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Member # 21761
Default  Posted: 10:35 AM, November 3rd (Saturday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I think US was addressing the situation that she was answering where the WW did have difficulty letting go.

Correct.

I understand that there are people who have no problem "getting over" their APs. There are also people who hold on tighter than before when the breakup was not their choice - such as the AP breaking it off, or DDay, or a BS hanging on to a WS emotionally when they intellectually do not know why.


WW(SA)
"Feedback is the breakfast of champions." - Boris Becker

Posts: 6046 | Registered: Nov 2008 | From: California
heartbroken0903
♀ Member
Member # 27879
Default  Posted: 11:19 AM, November 3rd (Saturday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Tred

I'm just curious if you (or any WS reading this) had real feelings for the AP yet were able to drop them on DDay. If that was the case, then how would you describe the feeling you had for your AP?

I would say I had "real feelings" for the AP. We had dated before I met my XH, so to me, at the time of the affair, those feelings while in the affair were a continuation of those "real" feelings I'd had for him while we were in a legitimate relationship.

I hid the affair for 5 1/2 months. D-day occurred when my XH found out about it. The affair ended that day (although XH and I divorced immediately) and I would say that the positive feelings ended on that day.

The reason is twofold. #1, I had already made the decision to end the affair before I was caught, although I'm sad to say that decision wasn't due to feelings for my XH but more pragmatic, "logical" factors (divorce & starting over would be too much of a hassle being the primary). So because of that I had already begun the process of letting go mentally & emotionally. #2 is that D-day and my XH's reaction to learning of my betrayal opened my eyes to whose feelings I actually cared more about when push came to shove, and literally in an instant I was completely focused on my XH. Looking back from 2 1/2 years out, I can see that it wasn't even about reacting in crisis mode. It was that in that instant, I knew instinctively who I loved more, who I wanted to be with more, for whom I was willing to do anything and everything to "keep." And it wasn't the AP. And that killed the positive feeling.

As to how I actually did feel toward him? Well, immediately on D-day I felt that he was a coward for refusing to pick up the phone and speak to my XH (who called him repeatedly that day). During the transition from married to divorced, I went through a period of childishly "hating" him because of what the affair had cost me (pretty much everything---XH, family, friends, beloved pet, my home, etc). As I got deeper into my "whys" and fully owning my shit, feelings turned to indifference tinged with distaste and that is where they remain today.


Me: WS, 30s
XH: BS, 40s
No kids

Married 2.5 years
D-day 3/6/10
Divorced 5/14/10

Reconciling after divorce


Posts: 1917 | Registered: Mar 2010 | From: the cat's meow
Unagie
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Member # 37091
Default  Posted: 12:40 PM, November 3rd (Saturday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I'm just curious if you (or any WS reading this) had real feelings for the AP yet were able to drop them on DDay. If that was the case, then how would you describe the feeling you had for your AP?

I liked him and thought he was a friend but I never had feelings for him. I even stopped thinking of him as a friend when reality came crashing around me when we made it physical. At that moment I hated myself, I hated how he had made me feel like this was something I could do and while I didn't hate him yet (that came later) I was able to see him again for who he really was.

It was more for me about how he made me feel good about myself and I didn't want that feeling to go away. I never loved him or wanted him more then my BBF or even thought he was better then my BBF. Emotions for him were never there and its probably why NC was so easy for me. The only time I think of him is in reference to how much I screwed my relationship over and then I started to resent him to a point where I wanted to go to his job and punch him and tell all the women there to be careful that he doesn't take advantage of his position to get close to them the way he did to me. But I digress. The ultimate answer is that I ended it 3 months before DDay and emotion for OM was never there for me especially not during DDay.


Heartbroken madhatter trying to rebuild

No longer together

Do not let others be your reference for who you see in the mirror.

Stop allowing people to hurt you, because you don't love you enough to walk away.


Posts: 2382 | Registered: Oct 2012
NoTriangles
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Member # 35985
Default  Posted: 5:48 PM, November 4th (Sunday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

First off, sincere thanks to all Waywards who take the time to reply in this Forum.

My question is:

How many Waywards are here without an intention, hope, or expectation of R? Is there anyone here who is here simply to work on themself, even if their marriage/relationship has proven to be unsalvagable?

In other words, are there any Waywards who came here for their own growth and not with an R agenda?

I appreciate your replies. Male replies appreciated.


Me: Forever Changed
Him: Traitor in my Foxhole
Let go or get dragged.

Posts: 1245 | Registered: Jun 2012 | From: a state of consciousness
uncertainone
♀ Member
Member # 28108
Default  Posted: 5:54 PM, November 4th (Sunday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Me

I'm not a male, though.


Me: 37

'til the roof comes off. 'til the lights go out. 'til my legs give out, can't shut my mouth


Posts: 6795 | Registered: Mar 2010
heartbroken0903
♀ Member
Member # 27879
Default  Posted: 8:20 PM, November 4th (Sunday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

NoTriangles,

I was one such. I was divorced with no hope of R for 2+ years before XH came back into my life. I still think & respond pretty strongly from that mindset since it is more familiar to me than is R.


Me: WS, 30s
XH: BS, 40s
No kids

Married 2.5 years
D-day 3/6/10
Divorced 5/14/10

Reconciling after divorce


Posts: 1917 | Registered: Mar 2010 | From: the cat's meow
Fightingmad
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Member # 37330
Default  Posted: 3:55 AM, November 5th (Monday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

So many questions -
Most pressing is how do I help WS start forgiving himself for what he realizes he did?

Second, how do I get a man who can totally seperate the act of sex from any intimate/emotional feelings to realize that even the sexting after the "physical" was over is still cheating to me. I still feel violated by that.


Today is the first day of the rest of your life

Married 10 yrs
Together 11 1/2 years
I've loved him forever
4 beautiful children ages 4-12 (one not bio his) but his through love


Posts: 597 | Registered: Oct 2012
UnexpectedSong
♀ Member
Member # 21761
Default  Posted: 6:12 PM, November 5th (Monday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Fightingmad -

how do I help WS start forgiving himself for what he realizes he did?

Why is this important?

Second, how do I get a man who can totally seperate the act of sex from any intimate/emotional feelings to realize that even the sexting after the "physical" was over is still cheating to me.

If he does not realize how he hurt you, what is he supposed to be forgiving himself for?

You should not be helping him understand anything. That is his job.

And besides, you are thinking things in the wrong order.


WW(SA)
"Feedback is the breakfast of champions." - Boris Becker

Posts: 6046 | Registered: Nov 2008 | From: California
Unagie
♀ Member
Member # 37091
Default  Posted: 6:23 PM, November 5th (Monday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Most pressing is how do I help WS start forgiving himself for what he realizes he did?

My BBF was going crazy trying to help me heal when he should have been focused on him. I was zombie like and could barely function, thing is he went crazy because he couldn't help me. While I could help him by answering his questions and just generally taking anything he felt I deserved thrown at me, the lashing out, the anger the resentment at times there was nothing he could do for me. Everything about the A for the WS is something we mucst come to terms with and own. It'll be different for each but the fact remains that it is an entirely different process for the WS and the BS and for the WS it is a solo journey to self-forgiveness. All you can do is work on you and vocalize your expectations and how you guys want your R and marriage to develop from this point. He has to find his own way.

Second, how do I get a man who can totally seperate the act of sex from any intimate/emotional feelings to realize that even the sexting after the "physical" was over is still cheating to me. I still feel violated by that.

uhhh, he won't be able to start his road to self-forgiveness if he is still hiding from issues and not owning everything he did. Once again something he must realize but I know I snapped out of my self-pity and self-punishment when I thought I was going to lose him. My parents bought a one way ticket for me to go to stay with them. The week before I left faced with the risk of losing him I snapped out of it and started owning everything I was doing and trying to fix it. Sometimes it takes the threat of losing it all to make you realize how wrong you've been not just in the A but also how you are handling R.


Heartbroken madhatter trying to rebuild

No longer together

Do not let others be your reference for who you see in the mirror.

Stop allowing people to hurt you, because you don't love you enough to walk away.


Posts: 2382 | Registered: Oct 2012
nlovemyfamily
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Member # 15258
Default  Posted: 1:05 PM, November 6th (Tuesday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

would love to hear how Fws have made amends to children and adult kids who also were and feel the betrayal? My xwh says he does not know how to make amends so he keeps disconnected to them. Any specifics would be welcome.
Thanks so much!

Posts: 415 | Registered: Jul 2007 | From: nj
Feelthrownaway
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Member # 33772
Default  Posted: 1:22 AM, November 8th (Thursday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Hi,
My husband says he will never do this again. That he never wants to see that kind of pain on my face. He says he never wants to be that way again, the lying, the stress, the loss of self respect. How do you know you will never cheat again? What if you get down again and need a boost? I was always telling him how good he looked, how sexy, etc...didn't matter. I guess the better question is how do I know he won't do it again? He is remorseful, transparent, loving, everything. I fear if I just let it go as a dreadful choice he made, that he will forget how it made me feel. He says that will never happen..but...how do I know?

Posts: 828 | Registered: Oct 2011
BaxtersBFF
♂ Member
Member # 26859
Default  Posted: 7:10 AM, November 8th (Thursday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

nlove,

My kids were young during my EA. They may realize something was going on, but infidelity is not something they were aware of back then. That being said, I've wondered about the future and whether or not they'll bring it up. They both see me on SI. Our son used to refer to it a Surviving Identity. We didn't correct him. Neither of them have ever said the word "infidelity" to either of us.

Anyway, the future, if the subject comes up, amends will include being honest with them about what happened. IMO, that is all you can do.

In your case, since you're D, I'm not sure if his honesty with them would be enough, but at least it would be a start. Was he ever honest with you? If he was honest with the kids, what would you do? Would you encourage the kids to forgive him and move on?

At a certain point, I think that it won't matter what he's done. He can't make it up to them in any other way except to be honest about what happened and let them know what he would like in regards to a relationship with them. If he is honest, then it will be on the kids to figure out if that is enough. Kids being kids, I'm betting one would forgive him and welcome him into the family, while the other wouldn't want to even be around him. (not sure how many kids you have, just stating that because kids are going to do what they need to do, even adult kids).

It took my FIL about 20 years to start to make amends with his kids. And even then, the whole A has not been part of the conversation. As far as I know, FIL has alluded to his choices back then only to me directly. I think his kids would someday like to be able to talk with him about it directly, but I doubt that will ever happen. All he can do for now is keep in contact with his kids. It has been up to the kids whether or not they've wanted to engage with him.


WH - 44
BW - gerrygirl

Posts: 6052 | Registered: Dec 2009 | From: Boise
BaxtersBFF
♂ Member
Member # 26859
Default  Posted: 7:20 AM, November 8th (Thursday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Fellthrownaway,

If he is saying that he never wants to be that way again and is recognizing the loss of self respect, then I think he is on a good path. If he was only saying that he wouldn't do it again because he never wants to see that kind of pain on your face again, then I'd be worried. Combining the two, recognizing the personal hit to himself, is what's needed IMO.

There have been times when that question has hit me...What if I do it again? It was so easy to do in some regards. I think my reasons for not doing it again are similar to your WH. I wouldn't do that to my BW again, and I wouldn't do it to myself either, or the kids now.

I don't think there is anything wrong with staying in the trust but verify mode and paying attention to your gut. You can still love him and do what you need to feel safe.

[This message edited by BaxtersBFF at 8:32 AM, November 8th (Thursday)]


WH - 44
BW - gerrygirl

Posts: 6052 | Registered: Dec 2009 | From: Boise
WalkinOnEggshelz
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Member # 29447
Default  Posted: 7:51 AM, November 8th (Thursday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

FeelThrownAway,

I suppose realistically there is no guarantee in life and at some point you have to take that leap of faith. That being said, I am also in the camp of "I will never do that again".

Considering I was one that said I would never do it in the first place, it may seem like an empty promise. But for me, coming to the realization that I was capable of causing so much pain was enlightening. It has really made me rethink how I interact not just with my spouse but others as well.

For me, perspective is everything. I heavily relied on faulty perspectives to justify what I was doing. I can no longer deny that I am capable of hurting othe people. I can no longer deny that my husband loves me. I can no longer deny the level of pain he would feel. I can no longer deny the impact all of this has had on my children. I can no longer deny my FOO issues. My excuses no longer have a leg to stand on.

Although I believe I will never cheat again, I am not naive enough to believe that old behaviors won't pop up here and there. But this is where good communication and vigilance come into play. If his gut doesn't say something is wrong, chances are yours will.

We don't always talk about the A itself anymore, but we do talk about our behaviors in general. Helps keep both of us aware of what the other is thinking.


Me: WS 41
Him: BH 42 (holdingtogether)
M: 17 years, together 21
2 Daughters: 12 and 9
D Day: 7/24/2010; TT to 10/17/10
If you keep asking people to give you the benefit of the doubt, they will eventually start to doubt your benefit.

Posts: 494 | Registered: Aug 2010 | From: Texas
wert
♂ Member
Member # 34478
Default  Posted: 7:25 AM, November 9th (Friday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

This is a general question for WS that was posed to me by my WS last night. It is about our situation but I think it must be something many WS have felt.

In conversations about the A and M my WW feel beaten up after every conversation. Initially, we both admit this was most likely because I was simply yelling at her - anger. That has not happened since the first few months and now the conversations are much more level headed and exploratory. In short I listen now and don't get as overtly angry.
Her direct question to me was, How do we have these conversations and not have me feel so beat up?

My answer was that there are consequences to actions. The conversations are hard because they are often about what she did wrong and facing that head on has to be really hard. But it is also really important. I need to be able to express my pain and to be honest she needs to accept it and that this is were we are.

That was just my take at the time, who knows if it is correct.


That all said, neither of us want this to continue. So how would you have answered her question?



Posts: 1364 | Registered: Jan 2012
WalkinOnEggshelz
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Member # 29447
Default  Posted: 8:44 AM, November 9th (Friday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

wert,

There was definitely a time when HT and I would have discussions where he would come out feeling better and I would come out feelings worse.

I believe for me the reasons boiled down to shame, full ownership, and acceptance. There are aspects we can talk about that no longer send me down that spiral of shame due to the fact that I have really worked through the issue and own it for what it is. I was able to work through a lot of the shame when I began to gain acceptance for my FOO issues as well as getting very real about how my actions have impacted HT.

I'm not 100%. I still have moments that are difficult, especially when it comes to discussions of how HT is feeling about himself, what damage it has done to him. It's never an easy pill to swallow. But it's my pill and I'm a big girl...now.

It gets better with time and consistency. Oh those two dreaded words! If she is putting the hard work in, she will get to a place of acceptance.


Me: WS 41
Him: BH 42 (holdingtogether)
M: 17 years, together 21
2 Daughters: 12 and 9
D Day: 7/24/2010; TT to 10/17/10
If you keep asking people to give you the benefit of the doubt, they will eventually start to doubt your benefit.

Posts: 494 | Registered: Aug 2010 | From: Texas
UnexpectedSong
♀ Member
Member # 21761
Default  Posted: 9:12 AM, November 9th (Friday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

My answer was that there are consequences to actions.

This statement alone is enough to beat up someone. You are not in a rational discussion mindset. You still want to punish.

That is perfectly fine - it is your prerogative, your right. Just be honest with yourself.

The conversations are hard because they are often about what she did wrong and facing that head on has to be really hard.

Both my IC and my H had a different perspective. They never dwelt on what I "did wrong" - my IC would ask "what was it that was working for me?" and my H would ask "what were my reasons for doing (whatever)?"

To this day, when I bring something up to my H and say it was my fault, he always prefaces with "it's not about fault" and then we go on to discuss whatever the issue is.

But it is also really important. I need to be able to express my pain and to be honest she needs to accept it and that this is were we are.

You expressing your pain is entirely separate from discussing her choices. If you insist on always discussing your pain with respect to her actions, you will never stop punishing her.

Again, you are well within your rights to continue to punish her. Just be honest with yourself that that is what you are doing.

That all said, neither of us want this to continue.

I don't believe you. I think you want to keep reminding her of your pain so that she does not forget. You believe her feeling beaten up is part of the consequences so she just needs to accept it.

She is human. No human being can become so inured to someone else's pain that they don't feel beaten up - unless she compartmentalizes and hides inside herself so that she does not feel it in order for you to continually express it. That is an unhealthy coping mechanism - her telling you her pain is healthy. It is up to you how you want to proceed.


WW(SA)
"Feedback is the breakfast of champions." - Boris Becker

Posts: 6046 | Registered: Nov 2008 | From: California
wert
♂ Member
Member # 34478
Default  Posted: 10:12 AM, November 9th (Friday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Thanks ladies - two different takes on it.

WOES - I really appreciate your take and how you related it to your experience. It makes sense to me and I think my W is just starting to own her stuff.

US -

You are right I am not completely done punishing her, but I am a long way from where I was. I accept that I do that sometimes, but not always and not as much as I used to. It's a process of learning not to.

I don't believe you. I think you want to keep reminding her of your pain so that she does not forget. You believe her feeling beaten up is part of the consequences so she just needs to accept it.

That made me step back and think. Thanks. I think you are wrong, however. I really don't want to just beat her up because she deserves it. I have done it, not on purpose, because she didn't get it. She didn't see my pain through her guilt and shame. Either way I has been a poor communication method and should change.

I think I get what you are driving at however. I can see now how that is not healthy and not kind on my part.

"it's not about fault"

Yep. I am working on not blaming, but instead working through the actual problem.

Both of these were helpful thanks.

take care...




Posts: 1364 | Registered: Jan 2012
CLRhope4her
♀ Member
Member # 37243
Default  Posted: 9:04 PM, November 12th (Monday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Thank you first off for the answers to questions.

What I wonder is this-is the fog so thick that you felt almost like a completely different person once you were out and in R? My WH has big parts of the A he honestly (or so he says and I believe) does not remember doing or saying. I recently found a list of songs he had made to download for her. He couldn't even remember making it. (DDay was June 28, 2012). He is extremely upset by the lack of memory and swears if he could write down every single word and action they did he would so I would never be hurt by additional memories or momentos that pop up.

It is extremely difficult for the Me as the BS to understand not remembering something so monumentally life shifting. (He claimed he fell in love and for a brief time struggled with leaving me for her). He now is in complete R and struggles with how he did what he did.

Just asking for insight. Thanks!


BW- Me 35 & WH- Him 38
OW- My BFF for 25 years
DDay- 6/28/12 Final truth- 7/28/12
“We gain strength, and courage, and confidence by each experience in which we really stop to look fear in the face... we must do that which we think we cannot.”

Posts: 176 | Registered: Oct 2012
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