I have not posted in a good long while, but have been trying to read and keep up.
Honest: what is the religion your WH practices? I'm sorry I'm not that familiar with your story, but you seem to be dealing with so much and I hope you can draw some strength from here.
DP: Wow. Just wow. I can't believe that has happened now on top of everything. It sounds like you have a plan, though. Will a second job be easy to get?
inca: welcome here. I think at 6 months out I couldn't even imagine trusting again. Today, at 21 months, I still don't trust him all that much, but at least I can see the improvement. I know my trust will be conditional forever, and am becoming satisfied with that.
AFM: Things are going okay here. I had a mini-breakthrough in IC that we have now begun addressing in MC. It is about fWH's tendency to be conflict-avoidant and how it is making it hard to build trust. This is a pretty big deal for me and I have told him we need to resolve this. I don't know yet if he will be able to do the hard work, but he did dig out our copy of "The 7 Principles for Making Marriage Work" and started reading it, as suggested by our MC (I had already read it) so that's a good start. Maybe. I still am not sure he understands how serious I am about this.
cdnmommy- the MC session sounds promising. My FWH is/was conflict avoidant as well. I think that's part of the reason why the LTA went on for so long. He said that he wanted to end it a long time ago but he didn't know how and kept getting pulled back in by a very aggressive ('I won't take No for an answer') MOW.
Nell: thank you for your kind words. I get so twisted up in "discussions" with NPD. He knows all the right buttons to push and my emotions get all over the place that I can't think straight.
Cd: I guess I'll have to update my profile for my story
For you, dealing with a conflict avoider must be hell. I hope that working with the MC there will be some way that your WH can work through this for you and your M.
DP: I'm so sorry. Detach emotionally as much as you can. You can get consults with lawyers for free and if you see some, you may get an idea of which way you need to head. They can tell you if it's a good idea to get a different bank account for yourself, for example so WW doesn't pull another of those "doozies". There are a number of free seminars about D around, and also Divorce and separated groups that you might join that you may get some info about what you need to do to get prepared.
I do understand about a feeling of relief once you've made the decision to D. I think living in limbo is a kind of hell and making a decision to move forward is good. Now, if only I can do the same!!
I read a quote on SI that Winston Churchill said that if you are in hell, you have to keep moving.
I, myself, have been stuck too long in one place.
The background to this breakthrough is this. A couple of weeks ago, I had a major project deadline at work. We have known about this for over a year, and had a short window, so I knew it would be long hours. fWH was great about it, in almost all respects, but on the Saturday night he took our son over to our neighbours, who were having a fire in their fire pit. No problem. Except he didn't tell me. We were texting all night and he told me they had come home, but failed to mention that he took DS back out again to the neighbors'. It came up the following morning, and he said that the reason he didn't tell me the night before was because I was at work and he "didn't want to upset" me, or distract me from my work.
I was really angry. He didn't forget to mention it. He didn't happen to be walking by their house and them call out to ask him to stop in. He deliberately decided not to tell me about it. I am so sick of him thinking he has any right to "protect" me. His protection isn't worth shit, except as far as it helps to protect himself, and I have told him again and again that I want complete honesty. The whole affair was because he was avoiding talking to me about hard things, and so how can I feel safe when he still pulls the same shit? He claims that the difference is that he WANTS to be open and honest with me, so why isn't he?
I talked this through with my IC, and came to the conclusion that this is a deal breaker for me. It is a huge barrier to intimacy, IMO, if he doesn't share things. I don't know if I could be doing things differently when he talks about hard stuff, because the hard stuff always seems to come out in a roundabout way. I am willing to learn and change how I respond, but first I have to be given the opportunity to respond at the time (i.e. instead of discovering that, yet again, he didn't tell me something when it happened.)
So, in our MC session I explained why we were there, and the MC completely backed me up. She said that when fWH first came to her (in between DDays) it was one of the things that she noticed then: his need to control information so that he didn't upset anyone, and the way he thinks through what he is going to say so carefully to avoid rocking the boat. She talked to him about how he is only protecting himself, that this is something that he needs to figure out, and that while she doesn't like me relating it back to the A (she thinks the problem is fundamental and that it goes way beyond that) that it is not going to make it better. She also mentioned my tendency to grab on to what he says and remember it forever as one reason why he might be afraid to open up, but she agreed with me that with practice that part will get better. I am very used to being stonewalled so when he does finally say something, I don't forget it quickly. She asked us (and especially him) to start conversations with the goal in mind to find a solution to the problem, not to get his way or my way, and to own our decisions. For example, he said to me, "I never should have gone" which makes it sound like he should have given in to my (imaginary, since he never gave me the chance) objection. She said he needs to think about the discomfort in telling me as an opportunity for effective communication where he could either a) decide to call me and mention it to me so that we could discuss it and arrive at a decision together or b) decide to stay home, not because of some imaginary objection but because the fact that he thought I wouldn't like it meant it was either a bad idea or something we should discuss when I wasn't busy at work; but, if he decided not to go he needs to own the decision. I can't handle the P/A bullshit of "Fine, I just won't go." (For the record, I don't think fWH is PA, but he does occasionally throw out these gems.)
She talked about how my feelings are valid: that if I am uncomfortable with something it is okay for me to say so, and told fWH that it might be upsetting to me, but she said it is not healthy for him to try and control information so that I don't get mad or upset. I asked what the big deal is about my getting mad? I had no idea I was so scary! While I don't want a marriage where we are arguing all the time (and believe me, I bet I get as uncomfortable as he does when I think I've upset someone) but I would like to have grown-up discussions where we work through problems. Of course, I am a talk through it kind of person, and I have a hard time keeping my feelings hidden, so I love the idea that we could both open up, if he is willing to try. I am nervous because when I tried to talk to fWH about this 2X before he got very frustrated. He was visibly uncomfortable at MC, but I think he got it. He really respects this MC and the fact that she validated my feelings has made me feel much better. Obviously I can't control whether he actually does the work, but I guess I just need to work on being okay with myself and keep trying to heal.
MC said that she thinks I need to stop relating everything to the A: that this is a fundamental problem with the way fWH communicates. But the fact is that everything he has told me about the A seems to come back to this very problem.
TMI alert: I also feel like this is a big problem for our sex life, or at least, the desire I have for my fWH. Even though I know he thinks he is being open and honest, obviously he isn't, and I sense that. Even when nothing obvious happens like the lie of omission that occurred a couple of weeks back, I know he is holding back. It is a turn off for me. Big time. And here may be the first time I've said something on SI that I haven't already said to my fWH, because I have no idea how to say it to him. I don't want it to sound like an ultimatum, or like I'm manipulating him into changing. But the fact is that while I thoroughly enjoy being with him sexually, his reluctance to have adult conversations with me when he thinks I won't agree, or will get angry, is not helping me feel attracted to him. At all. In fact, after MC this week, when he showed a lot of discomfort but talked through it anyway, those feelings of attraction came back big time. (Don't worry, men, I made sure to act on them! lol) I know I need to talk to him about this, but he has become pretty defensive when I tried to bring the conflict avoidance up to him before, and even though this is before we went to MC, I am still worried. He shut both conversations down before with a "What do you want me to say?" and then "It seems like everything is a dealbreaker to you." so I'm smarting a little anticipating us arriving at a stalemate again. I guess I just have to do it, though, because if he shuts down, then maybe that is my sign that he still doesn't get it and is not willing to work on this issue in himself.
(sorry for the length. This is a bit of a stream of consciousness post, I guess!)
[This message edited by cdnmommy at 12:19 PM, July 20th (Friday)]
Inca, the way it works is, jump in and let us help you. You'll catch up with us as you go along.
DP -- I'll spare you me in lycra! Finally had to go buy some maternity clothes today. Even my stretchiest things won't do anymore!
I feel less stressed now that Ive made the decision to D but I know its going to be one big shit fight.
Maybe, maybe not, hon. But I feel the same way, so big hug.
AS for M3 -- I told my sister today of my decision to D. So that makes SI, my attorney and her (she's very trustworthy) the only folks who know. It was important for me to talk to my IRL support; I told her that I feel like my only options are to live with infidelity or be divorced. I don't like either, but I know that I cannot live with infidelity. I'm ANGRY and resentful and mean and nasty and it's not good for my physcial or mental health or for my relationship with my kids. Nope.
Sometimes it's good to get the "2nd opinion" the "hey you know him, am I right?" And, of course, I got the "Yep, you're right. He's done nothing really to change. You can't make him change, but you certainly gave him every opportunity."
So, do I feel better? I don't know. I f'in hate this. But I feel better in the sense that I'll be "fixing" a problem I've had for a long time and that's going to be pretty cool.
She surmises that no one knew. I said something about it being embarassing and she said "no one knew" I said "someone had to know" and she said, "in retrospect I think it's likely OW's BH knew, but I would be shocked if anyone else knew." And I said "I think OW's BH knew too, but I also think he's gay." and she said "That would not surprise me at all. I've suspected that as well."
Anyway ... yeah. She knows.
CDN -- I really feel for you, and I wish I had something to say to help. Hopefully getting that all off your chest helped at least SOME.
Okay, so the divorce crew is Nell, m3, dp, Ellejay and jollum. And honest. Right, honest? And maybe WYE or maybe not.
The R crew is njgal, UKgirl, tryn, dip, miracle (if she ever returns... I miss her!), Laura, cdnmommy, fnf, lost, h&c (and maybe WYE or maybe not ) and I can't remember the rest.
So you've got a bunch of different perspectives here... from D'ed through ambivalent to successfully R'ed. Mostly I just come here because I love my tribe. Sometimes I can help with the cussing.
Nell - you in lyrca - WOW love to see that
Okay, I've got a weekend of avoiding all media and going to a concert and going for a long, somewhat difficult hike up in the mountains. There's good stuff on the other side, whichever side you end up on.
ETA: m3, I'm glad you told your sister.
[This message edited by ImNellNow at 1:57 PM, July 20th (Friday)]
Hi inca, like the others said, just jump right in. Give us a little outline of your story and maybe we can help. The first thing in NC with the OW, the second is doing the actions that go with remorse (otherwise itís just regret he got found out) and the third is MC/IC. It really does help to wrap your head around what goes on in a LTA. As for trust, you donít ďdecideĒ to trust, the trust has been broken. Your fWS has to regain that trust from you. It will never be the same, but it can be won back.
Honest, it is your NPD WH who doesnít know how to conduct himself in a relationship. He is controlling to the point of being a sociopath. He has no interest in having a symbiotic relationship, he only wants one where he is the centre of attention and where he gets to say exactly who does what Ė to the point of telling them what and how to think. Your boundaries are perfectly reasonable. You did not marry him with the expectation he was going to take another wife! His way of ďfixingĒ the marriage is to tell you he hasnít divorced you (oh great and wonderful husband!). He is putting you down all the time Honest. Donít let him. Detach and give him platitudes to end a conversation and shut him up. Have you found a lawyer to deal with your case yet? Keep searching Ė there is one out there for you. Anything has to be better than this, doesnít it?
to start talking to MOW, who of course validated all his feelings without challenging him to actually DEAL with any of them.
The dropping in on impulse to your neighbourís fire pit (Iíve not much idea of what that is Ė outside open fire with a BBQ type thing??) in itself isnít the problem. Itís that he lied by omission. A stupid and unnecessary lie. Itís not just controlling information he gives you, itís almost as if he wants to keep something to himself just so YOU donít know. Iím guessing this sort of thing goes back to childhood Ė either parental or maybe school. The thing is, if this was a teen doing it to HIM, how would he feel? If your child as a 13yo went to a party instead of the movies and just didnít say and then Mr cdn found outÖÖ? Would he find that acceptable? Of course not. Itís a bit of a puzzle WHY he feels the need to do it.
No itís not directly A-related, but this behaviour is a link to the affair.
The pulling away from sex is understandable. How can you have intimacy with someone when you feel you donít really know them and you donít know what else they are capable of? Def more in depth counselling for him.
m33 Ė Angry and resentful are part and parcel of the divorce procedure. Look at it as a stage, one that helps you detach and remove yourself from caring so much about Mr m33. Your sister is right Ė you HAVE done your best, heís done fuck all to change and, in fact, has carried on with his inappropriate behaviours. What else CAN you do. Put up and shut up. Well, that doesnít make for happiness or a healthy marriage. You are doing the right thing. You can look back and say you did your best and you have grown as a person. As for him, heís learned nothing.
After talking to a couple of friends, I decided to confront yesterday. I asked him why he did a search on [MOWname]. He kept insisting he didnít. It was one of those stupid scenarios we me saying ďyou didĒ and him saying ďI didnítĒ I told him it was on Linkedin. He said she had shown up under ďwho has viewed your profileĒ and thatís why it showed in the history. He still insisted he hadnít looked her up and proceeded to open up his account to ďproveĒ it to me Ė I accused him of trying to buy time and think of what to say. The history was still there so I brought it up on the screen for him to see.
He claimed she had turned up a couple of times and there was nothing he could do about stopping her viewing his profile Ė itís public, anyone can look. He wasnít going to take his profile down just because she looked. He hadnít looked at her profile, he had no interest in ever contacting her again (I suggested she had sent a message or he had sent one to her some time in the recent past), he has no wish to ever open up that part of his life ever again.
I couldnít take it any further. But, this morning, I went into his Linkedin account and did a test. I clicked on one of the people who had recently viewed his profile and it came up the same in the history:
http://www.linkedin.com/profile/view?id= [identifying number]
So. He did view her profile. He took the bait. He didnít send a message or do any other search on her, but thatís not the point!!! Sheís not on the site anymore (or at the moment) so perhaps she got a fright when she saw he had viewed her too. The fact is, he told a lie. A little lie, a stupid lie, but a lie nevertheless. Why?? Heís gone to play golf this morning. I plan to have more words later and, once again, put the proof under his nose. And ask him why he lies about such stupid details.
Sheís not gone. Six fucking years and the woman is still stalking. Sorry, this is a bit of a rant. I think Iím fed up with his stupid, pathetic and unnecessary lies!
eta - this must be why I'm still here on SI.
[This message edited by UKgirl at 5:00 AM, July 22nd (Sunday)]
inca - welcome. i'm sorry that you're here, but i think you will find that the support here is amazing. as for the "how do you know" question, i have no idea. i am over a year out and still don't know. as nell mentioned, i'm in the fence-sitting category now. my fwh has been semi-remorseful (i'm sure he's regretful, it's just taken everything i have to get him to see how this has hurt me and isn't just about him). he's been completely nc with ow1 since dday, but ow2 is still lingering in his head. i caught him looking for her online not too long ago again, and there is a huge part of me that wonders if she'll ever just be gone. which is a bigger kick to the gut because she was supposed to be my bff. whatever. i've learned not to trust anyone, often including myself.
as for today, we are in r.
our highs and lows seem to be worse now than ever, though we cycle less frequently, if that makes sense. i want to believe that we can get through this, but i hate the person i've become. and i hate that i have no idea who i'm really married to.
dp - you can do this.
ukgirl - holy hell, i think your h and mine must be related. what is with the "but i only looked for her, i didn't DO anything crap"??? um, yeah buddy, you did. you looked for her. again.
i've been struggling a lot with the fact that both ow are pretty much pathetic messes compared to me. ow1 in particular was never a threat to me, because she was stupid and ugly and humorless and bitchy. i could not have been more wrong! i just don't understand it, but then i know i never will. mostly she was a willing partner who came along at the right time and had no self worth. i get that. i do. but why the hell would he want that when he already had me????
because he was depressed. yeah. nice.
totally explains it.
sorry, i know i am rambling..haven't been here for a while since we were on vacation, and i'm still trying to process things.
hugs to the tribe.
fWH came home at lunchtime and I asked him why he was lying about looking at her profile. He denied. I put it to him that I did a test this morning and the only way for it to show is if he had clicked on her profile. He was adamant he hadnít. If he did, it was unintentional, he was unaware he had clicked and he did NOT look at her profile. He continued to say he has no interest in her or what she is doing or her family. But the fact is, she threw out the bait and he took it.
I ended up saying that he has to live with himself and live within his boundaries, whatís acceptable and what isnít. ďyou think I donít know that? I have nothing to hide, there is no deceit.Ē
I reckon his clicking on her showed up on her profile and gave her a fright, so she deleted her details. Sheís still not back on. It was her birthday was a few days before the show in the history, so perhaps she was drunk. WH made a big deal of her birthday. I know heíll just wait around for me to get over it. But each time something like this happens, I get closer to being done. I canít live with a liar and he seems to think lying by omission is okay. Well, it may have been once, but now it certainly isnít. Prat.
I don't know what other WS can do about the lying issue. Discuss it in MC? or with a IC?
UKgirl- Why don't you want to put a keylogger on your WH's computer?
I think that a lot of your anxiety about R is due to your gut feeling that he is still seeing the OW (when he visits her town etc.) or...if at the least the fact that he is still thinking about her etc.
I needed to know that the affair was over before I could consider R.
I got the information that I needed in a variety of ways-including snooping. I also got a hold of concrete proof that my FWH and the OW had not had any contact at all after d-day or for months afterward....despite the fact that both of them were living on their own and S from their BS at the time.
I got that irrefutable proof from the MOW's BH.
If I needed to check further I would not have hesitated to put a keylogger on his computer.
Okay, so the divorce crew is Nell, m3, dp, Ellejay and jollum. And honest. Right, honest? And maybe WYE or maybe not
So - was I left out because you are creating a new category for me? Like - "yes they are separated, but sometimes she entertains his R crap"?
DP - good luck. The divorce itself may be a mess or might not be, but I do think limbo is worse than anything - well, anything other than making the wrong decision & having regrets - which is why I think most of us stay in limbo waaaay too long, but at the end of it should be some peace in knowing we did all we could & were left with no choice.
Peace to all.
[This message edited by Allgoodnamesgone at 8:36 PM, July 22nd (Sunday)]
Do something for YOU today. It's YOUR day, celebrate in the way that makes you FEEL GOOD.
Happy Birthday xx
Why don't you grab those kids and tell them that all of you are going out to celebrate your birthday!! Go out for dinner, dessert etc.
and then... tell them that the celebration will continue next weekend when you will do something special with them! Go to a park, a zoo...etc. It doesn't have to be expensive-just memorable.
and take lots of pictures....
It's time for you to start celebrating your self, your children... the new little family that you will become.
Your WW does not seem to have any familial love-not for you, not for the kids.....
you need to start creating memories and creating traditions with your children.
They don't have to be expensive.
just something to do together.
You will teach them how to be kind, giving and considerate.
Tell them that it's your birthday today and what them to each draw a picture of themselves with you doing something that was fun.
And that next year they will do that again... but next year you will have created many more happy memories for them to draw from!
Take some pics of you and the kids today....put them together with their drawings and make a memory book for yourself.
and if you can't do any of this today due to work etc. Then tell them that you and the kids will be celebrating your birthday next weekend!
Think of it as a celebration of you and your kids.
A new beginning.
Iím guessing this sort of thing goes back to childhood Ė either parental or maybe school. The thing is, if this was a teen doing it to HIM, how would he feel? If your child as a 13yo went to a party instead of the movies and just didnít say and then Mr cdn found outÖÖ? Would he find that acceptable? Of course not. Itís a bit of a puzzle WHY he feels the need to do it.
That it is something he has always done is what our MC was trying to get at. Me relating it to the A is what she wants me to avoid doing, because (I think) it takes the focus away from it being a basic issue fWH has. However, I need him to understand that it is a fundamental problem that was almost a prerequisite for his A. Without conflict avoidance on his part, none of the other conditions that contributed to his "situation" (ha!) would have let him go there on their own. Not the depression, not the fact that he wasn't getting my attention when I had PPD, etc.
We had it out a bit on Friday, but in the end he said he will have this conversation with me as many times as we need to for me to feel like he gets it and I am safe. Time will tell, I guess.
DP, I second the idea of planning celebration with your kids. You deserve it!
it is a fundamental problem that was almost a prerequisite for his A.
I hope he can work it through and see the relation between the very recent incident and his affair.
[This message edited by UKgirl at 12:12 PM, July 23rd (Monday)]