[This message edited by Shockedman at 5:01 AM, July 26th (Friday)]
Honestly, I think that anything you write down right now will fall on deaf ears. I think you will know when the time is right, if that ever happens to share something like that with her. I would say keep detaching and moving forward with your life without her.
At some point you will have to come to understand that it is not about her choosing you over him but about her choosing herself again. She has to choose to be real with herself and to live an authentic life and are you going to be a part of that life?
keep detaching and moving forward with your life without her.
thanks TG. toughie this one. I want to move house, am hopefully getting a new job after months of unemployment. i also want to plan my kids schooling better/different. the house and schooling thing; they're both something we had decided on - as a team - about a few years ago; the house thing aint working for me and the kids education is a bit of a mess. i'm now at the stage of "fuck that team" and would like to make other/better choices. though, given the lack of communication, i'm not sure i can even have an honest and forthright conversation about it with her; not an adult one anyway. moreso since i really dont know whether we'll still 'be' a family a year or 2 from now. i'm more in the state of 'she can make her own choices (she already has been), i need to make mine independent of her shitty maladaptive and disrespectful/sneaky ways', i've been the idiot thinking we were on the same team all along anyway-even through 2 years of her TT and false-R shenanigans.
This has been a tough week for me. WW is trying to be "authentic" but I am just having a very hard time processing all of it. I think in the first 2 months, my gut told me something was still wrong. I was right in that she took it underground. I was in BS fog, which led me to make the very wrong and not justifiable decisions to be with another women. My mistake. I own it. I was reading some other threads from uncertainOne which were very insightful. My thoughts are about how I would feel if I decided to take my WW back. Would I always be looking over my shoulder? I will always have triggers and never be able to look at her the same way. I feel now that I can't trust her and in the future how will I live with myself and be proud of this person? She fell in love with AP. I do think she will realize at some point that it is lurve, but until then she is still in the fog some what. She is out enough to be trying, but it may take her months to process what happened and how am I to expect myself to wait for that? I value my life and myself enough to know that I just can't do nothing. Hang in limbo for a year? In hopes to rekindle a relationship that WW killed? Then go through years of work to get back to where we were? I know it will never be the same as where we were, nor do I want ti to be. I just am struggling with the reality that I will likely be alone and have to move on. It is a very hard pill to swallow when you spent nearly half your life with someone.
Any thoughts on the PA/EA connection? My WW claims it was so much more about the EA. Not that its any better, but they started the PA after 2 months and were physical every time they saw each other after that. Seems like more of a PA issue.....just saying.
nothing your WW says right now is to be taken at face value. NOTHING. oh shes being such a martyr of giving up her AP for you and the M. BULLShit. what she has described is going cold turkey not NC. Another example; her not wanting to divulge information is TT/dishonesty and lack of transparency - not 'protecting you'. she is making this M unsafe for you and being controlling about it. you can stop being manipulated by being transparent with clear demands which you'll find in the healing library.
dont beat yourself about the 'plan'. eventually it is addict behaviour and addicts dont think straight, let alone feel straight. so what to say of her feelings for AP? they'll change (whether she is remorseless or not) in time, so dont give it too much airtime or you'll just bear more scars.
from what you've said in the last 2 posts, it seems they both (your WW and AP) are just setting the stage for an underground A; even if their intent is not that at the moment.
give yourselves some time; if she hasnt gone NC (which I could BET she hasn't; not in her head/heart or checking up on him at least); nothing you 'try' with her will work.
I'd say shift the focus on you. Let go of the outcome. forget trying to discover how much fog she is in, or whether she'll step out of it. hope can be a real killer of ACTION. you know you messed up. you know you need to get healthy. YOU can do things about that. You cannot love/wish/coerce/force or manipulate anyone else into changing. at most you'll see surface changes, at worst, you'll be gaslit till you think you're going crazy.
you'll see most progress when you start working on your WS side even though the BS side stings like hell.
there is no going back to where you were. grieve the death of that M and that relationship and who you thought your WW was.
PA's in most WW cases are a result of an EA, so what is your question exactly? Is a PA a dealbreaker? I know most men will have a lot of trouble swallowing the bitter pill of a PA; its something something evolutionary, something something primeval. You can get some insight in the BM thread in ICR.
your A was not a 'mistake' you can read about that more in the wayward forums. it was deliberate choices and maladaptive coping mechanisms. when we rid ourselves of our notions, we can clearly start looking at ourselves.
you cant crystal ball this, questions like "would I always look over my shoulder?" (yes, if shes remorseless), "triggers?" (yes, for many years to come), "loss of trust/pride?" (yes, again depends on what progress she makes as a person and you both as a couple); are kind of moot right now. They wont get you to results or action.
Think for a while that she too may have similar or more questions about you... so its not all one sided as far as MH are concerned.
there will be a point, when you have enough strength and/or enough self awareness that you will recongnise that ending or continuing the relationship is the best way forward. at 2 or 3 weeks or even months from DDay, i think you're going to keep struggling with those emotions due to the rollercoaster.
the only way is through it, not around it. I am not advocating staying with an unsafe partner, so safety first then make life altering decisions. For some, a clean break works, but it doesnt necessarily fix their own issues.
i'm rambling a bit, so i'll stop
I know you are right about getting to the bottom of my wayward side. It has been very hard as most people seem to be giving me a pass or validating it somehow. I for sure was in the BS fog of denial, shock and sadness. Before I knew it I was taking comfort in another women. I didn't realize what I was doing until I was in it. Then I felt justified because WW was being a cold hearted B. She was still in the affair and I felt it. These are not excuses. Believe me, I know. From my time here on SI, I know that I need to dig deep to get to the core of how I could have let myself get there. It is hard when everyone validates it because my wife was so horrible to me and we hadn't been intimate in 7 or 8 months. No excuse for sure. I need to talk to IC about it. I am starting to question if she is good IC or not. When I told her about first encounter with my OW, she acted like it was no big deal as well and through the whole process never labeled it as an A either. That was all me who came to this conclusion on my own. If everyone keeps telling me to stop being so hard on myself about my A, how can I get to the bottom of it? How do you ever come to your "why"? I can give you several reasons why I chose that path, low sexual self esteem, needing to feel validated, BS fog etc., but I know that those are all excuses. If SI has taught me anything it is that I need to really get to the core, but in the end isn't everything you conclude just an excuse? Could it just be that you made a horrible decision? In my case I realized quickly and ended it immediately.
One other issue. My IC seems to think after all our convos over the past 6 months that WW has NPD. She said she wont diagnose it since she cant. They never met, but she wanted me to research it and form my own opinion. I can certainly see some symptoms. Pre affair, there were some, but in the A there were many. The research I've done on being in relationship with a N, fit my situation pretty well. Especially when it comes to infidelity. As our M became dull she needed her N supply. Since i wasn't giving her the supply she needed and other areas of supply dwindled ( friends and family issues got better...no one needed her to rescue them ) she found her new supply in the A. And it sure seems like she got a lot of it. They are/were SO in love and up each others ass like no other. Thoughts on this? My IC seems to think NPD is a relationship killer....
but in the end isn't everything you conclude just an excuse
here's a few exercises that you may need to do-either as a couple or just for yourself;
1. write down/communicate your entire history of relationships and then look at it from angles where you weren't the victim/acted out in ways contrary to relationship building/hurtful to your SO or you being just plain selfish.
2. take stock of your 'go to' coping behaviours and how you should have handled it differently
3. identify what addictive behaviours you have that purposefully hurt those close to you and those specifically that hurt those closest to you; both hurt them directly and indirectly
4. find out how you can replace those behaviours or end them with healthier choices
5. look at yourself at how to be a 'safe' partner in ANY relationship; it could be being transparent, communicative, honest, owning your shit, not verbally or otherwise abusive, not acting out in other ways to 'get back' at someone. I know I have a lot of coda tendancies and am learning a lot about myself having accepted that. I also know I have/have had SA problems and am actively working on that too.
6. this may be the core of it; something along the lines of 'treat others as you would want to be treated'; look at the ethical violations you committed on the steps you took towards the PA-not just the having sex part but EVERYTHING leading up to it as well. now imagine if someone recorded all of it; your thoughts, words, actions, justifications, rationalisations, etc.. etc.. would it be acceptable to you? why did you make it ok? what made you an exception whereas you'd hold anyone else close to you to those standards.
7. learn empathy for yourself and stop beating yourself up (this just gets us into a 'poor me' state and doesnt let us work on ourselves/our issues), this may also teach you some empathy for your W even if she is being unremorseful. It'll allow you to get to a point where you can no longer feel like you can change YOUR M history. grieve the death of your M and who your thought your W and you were. acceptance will actually get you to a far better mental state than you can ever imagine.
as for your W, though this wont help you in any way and you cannot help her if she doesnt want it; read up on PA behaviours, on attachment bonds, links below;
you should know that DETACH is real: dont even try and change her. it has to come from within. otherwise you'll be in for the long haul of false R or worse.
get healthy, get strong, get safe and then decide what you want to do for yourself. let go of the outcome.
I have been seeing her for 6+ months but now am questioning her methods and if she is helping or keeping me stuck. We have talked very little about the past and it seems like only cover what's bothering me today....I think it might be time to switch.
On another topic, I was obviously devastated by my wife's actions and her betrayal, yet I often imagine us together in the future. Not sure if is a "I'm scared" thing or I feel it in my heart. The women I have known for 17 years had changed, but I still love her. I won't try to change her. I see some remorse but we are not living together and I feel that I am missing out on much of her healing as I don't get to see it first person. Neither of us has committed to R. We both need some more serious IC before we enter into MC to look at our life. If we can see a reason we will try to R. If not, we will get closure at least.
Just having a hard time with my self and my thoughts. It feels wrong and Coda to me to even be thinking about R as much as I am when I have been hurt so deeply and haven't really addressed my own issues fully. I am just a mess.
It feels wrong and Coda to me to even be thinking about R as much as I am when I have been hurt so deeply and haven't really addressed my own issues fully. I am just a mess.
you are normal dude. that's exactly where many of us have been. and you know what? you'll bumble along for a few more months until the PTSD settles, until the rollercoaster becomes a bit more stable. so be good to yourself (eat, drink, work out, etc..) and actually feel that what you're going thru (specially the part about wanting/needing R so bad with someone who has hurt/still hurts you so grievously) is pretty normal for most BS's.
Why would she not see the path I was taking post affair and bring it to my attention?
time to dump this IC and get an infidelity specialist IC or look for some books/advise here on SI rather than waste $$$$ on an IC who validates a shitty choice like that.
I know what its like, my WW saw an IC who said "what else did you expect?" after my A, and she (my WW) actually used it to assuage her guilt - almost like a tit-for-tat so there no work needed for R or to protect the M.
In fact, she (my WW) said "I was expecting it (my PA) though I didn't think it would take you so long to get there" (Since her A's were 7 years prior to mine but I had no idea of her A's - I just learned to live in a shitty M and coped).
I actually think that rather than her being a 'martyr' of sorts and lessening my guilt, the actual intent behind such a statement was to make A's in general and her A's, in particular, OK. that it was something expected so "lets not get our knickers in a twist and move along now".
I called bullshit on that. Betrayal of my spouse was betrayal of ME first, so even if she wants to minimize it through either BS fog or WS justification. I WILL NOT ALLOW it to be minimized since I want healthy for myself, even if she doesn't want it. KWIM?
I dunno about the separation (she may have used it to go underground or carry out her A with more ease); but you are right on the dot about seeing IC's first and then attempting MC. I would go as far as Couples Counseling if its an option with a view to communication - not fixing M problems but seeing each other through your own personal fixing. I dunno about her living separate though since it seems mighty fishy, specially if she is still unremorseful.
[This message edited by Shockedman at 10:20 AM, July 30th (Tuesday)]
hop over to the betrayed menz thread. dont worry about being a WS as well, it did deter me for a while and what i can say is that that thread is probably the ONLY resource on the internet which gives strong "man advice" (with all due respect to the ladies). at the least you'll get some perspective on being betrayed and whats normal/to be expected and how to piece yourself together better. at the most, it'll learn folks like us to be better men and how to be men of integrity. (I love those guys there, we have a real strong brotherhood)
My bulletpoint update:
* I've had 5 IC sessions so far and I feel like there is a rapport. The C now seems to have the full 'sense' of JAS and hopefully we can get some forward movement.
* Two and a half weeks ago my WH was very down after a fight we had and I went NC. He went to OWs house after work for 15 - 30 minutes to "check in on how she's doing and let her know that things are not going well" for him and JAS. (Uh huh)
* He had a test the next week so I decided to let the next week be (after grilling him about the visit) so that he couldn't use "me" as the reason should he fail the test. He passed. A few texts back and forth between him and OW. She said "love" and called him their nickname - he was careful to not say the words back. Just smiley faces. I kept quiet for once to enact a plan.
* Two days later he takes her to lunch. She asks "how do you know you love me". He responds with X, Y, and Z. I light into him the next day after learning this and asked him to leave since he had a place to go to (OPs house) until I could find a place. He said they were not "together" and he had no place to go. (Uh huh)
* Every time we have a (seemingly) serious conversation in an adult manner he comes back with "I've tried - I've called you multiple times a day and have spent time with you - and it's not working since we are still fighting. I don't know what more to do". He still believes that those two things should be enough (on his part).
* Since I told him a couple of days ago that I found a vacant sublet he has been Mr. Nice and says how anxious he gets with the thought of me not being around. It makes me waver but I put my application in this morning for the apartment.
I'm excited / scared / anxious / hurt / scared / frustrated. Hoping I have the balls to sign the lease. I must let go of the outcome.
yikes. Longer than I intended. Thanks for listening.
ETA: If I'm being totally honest the real driving factor of the application for the apartment is that it's cute and I'd probably be sad if I didn't take it and then in two weeks I'm hearing from WH again how I should have left. (I've looked at several since January and have passed them by because I wanted to believe things would change when he said 'stay' only to be told later during a fight that he wished he'd not said the words). All of that is to say IF I sound like I've gained some strength - it's probably not actually true. But dipping the big toe into the strength pool? Maybe.
[This message edited by JustAShadow at 9:40 AM, July 31st (Wednesday)]
do you think that some people have RA or whatever you would call an affair after one spouse did it, simply to equalize the power in the relationship?
Maybe the BS didn't like being the "good one."
4 kiddos in lower 20's
“Courage is the price that life exacts for granting peace."
When you say pack a whallop does this mean that she is hitting you?
I think that if your H cannot maintain NC then separating may be the best thing at this point. I am sorry that he is not giving you more at this point. Continue with your healing and you will be stronger in the end. A hard truth, but you will feel better.
rachelc, are you trying to figure out his whys?
maybe. wondering if it goes deeper than he's already looked at. And if true, what the heck would it mean?
The thing I hold against him is not getting healthy after many opportunities where he could have.