[This message edited by exhaustedheader at 4:11 PM, June 19th (Wednesday)]
I went to see the counselor today solo, invited husband, he said he couldn't get out of work but that he would go a different day, I didn't feel like I could wait.
MC continues to talk about how his behaviors do not match his words, I agree, he doesn't. He keeps telling me that because I cannot get over it, because I am still bringing it up that I don't want to move past it. Part of me is angry, I never said that to him, I sat in the hot seat and i feel like i fought for my marriage, I still five months after my dday haven't left the house without either him or one of our children with me...he ahs..numerous times since his dday 1 month ago. He says he cannot say anything that will make me believe him, I don't want him to be right but part of me thinks he is, because I jsut found out three days ago he was lying to me about going to meet her after dday...I feel like he is rugsweeping...he says he doesn't even know what that means. I feel very lost.
He keeps telling me that because I cannot get over it, because I am still bringing it up that I don't want to move past it.
^^ The "he" in that sentence - is that your WH or your MC?
He says he cannot say anything that will make me believe him,
Have you read about the 180? If not, go to the Just Found Out board and look for the bullseye. Here's a link too: http://www.survivinginfidelity.com/forums.asp?tid=232785
ETA: As a MH we can't post on the JFO board but you can lurk/read to get info about when dealing with things when you are wearing the BS hat (of a MH situation).
It sounds like you have a remorseless spouse and that is a very frustrating thing to deal with. Nothing you can do can change that. The 180 is a way to help YOU gain control of YOU. It can sometimes help a WH get their head out of their fannies. But that is not the goal of the 180 - just a italic]possible [/italic]effect.
Was IC helpful for you today? How long have you been going to IC. Have you figured out the Why's of your A's?
Exhausted - I'm SO sorry that you are in the middle of the storm. I've read your posts on the last few pages so I'm not wholly up to date but I think I've got the gist.
I don't think that your confession caused your W to run to the other man's arms. She probably already had that planned.
Do you have something you can do outside (other than hurting your other hand - you will need one to post!) to get rid of some of the anger? Do what you can to not go to the bottle for soothing.
And, as far as what she sees in the OM...they (we) always affair down.
Takes all the wind from my sails when i think that ive been at it fo years. Im an aashole.
Sigh. I feel that way too when I think about my past. But you didn't make your W go out and have an A. If I remember correctly from some entries that you made earlier in this thread - you've been trying to a couple years to get her to turn from a remorseless spouse to a remorseful one. Regardless of how much or how little of an a-hole you've been - she DID have other choices she could have made other than having an A.
(I hope that I'm not way off on all of this. I feel like I'm swimming in strange waters - trying to help).
[This message edited by JustAShadow at 5:22 AM, June 20th (Thursday)]
Aren't these 3 little words that lead to (or are used to justify) so many affairs?
On one hand it can mean an entitlement used to start and/or continue an A. As in "Yay me! (or 'poor me) - I deserve it! (I'm not getting what I need - I deserve it!)"
On the other hand it can be the, "I'm such an a** - I deserve it" (whatever bad things come to me). This can be a pattern of thought that leads to starting or continuing an A. As we seek someone out to help us feel as if we weren't such horrible sh*ts.
You deserve to be treated with respect. Your WW also deserves the same. In the past you have not treated her that way. Now she is not treating you that way. There is no fairness and no equality that can be gained from the tit-for-tat that we all do. Drama Triangle.
180 her for yourself. Respect yourself now. You deserve that. We all deserve that. And if only it were as easy as just saying those words.
Do you have a place to go to tonight? Is she coming back into town tonight? Stay safe.
And yes, this is me in the pot/kettle/black scenario. Damn this rollercoaster.
[This message edited by JustAShadow at 5:17 PM, June 19th (Wednesday)]
I went to three sessions of IC after my dday, then we went to same C for MC twice after his dday and today was my visit back, it has been about three weeks since we saw her together. I do feel as though she has helped me. Sometimes I get confused because she really tries to make me see this is not all my fault and I am not there, I know that it is all my fault, had I made any other choice than what the ones I made, maybe he would have never done this (although i will just put it out there that I think he did it before me and that was part of my justification at the time-I have sense realized that there was zero justification for hurting the people I love as I did). But I do see it as my fault so sometimes it is hard for her to say it isn't. Although other times she has been pretty hard on me, don't make WH mindread you, communicate this, etc.
As far as actions I have done, never leaving the house solo, not having a lock on my phone, asking him to check incoming text messages on my phone to help him see I am not hiding anything, these are all things i volunteered to do or just did, he has never asked me to do any of these things.
I just feel like I am the only one trying and he is doing nothing to make me trust him or believe him or even like him (except that I do in general like him). As much as it was horrible, my dday was freeing, I had gone back and forth with OM for years, it hadnt been physical in years we knew we should end it, my dday was that push, that this is it, that sigh of relief, that all the lying was done, for me it was, apparently for my WH it was not. UGH UGH UGH
[This message edited by Spideysense at 5:29 PM, June 19th (Wednesday)]
had I made any other choice than what the ones I made, maybe he would have never done this
I really love to play the victim card - I'm very good at it. And it sucks that I'm NOT a victim - I was the first one to stray. And did it AGAIN (with his permission at first) before he had his first A. Would he have not had his first or second if I had not had the first or second? Would one have been OK because it was with a woman but the guy was the dealbreaker (that was the one he wanted me to have). If I had stopped when he asked me to - would he THEN not have had his first and/or second A's?
Then we move into the non-A stuff. What if I had done X, Y, or Z instead of P, R, Q? Would THAT have made him feel any differently and then not had the affairs?
He says that if we had a child then he *never* would have cheated. But many H's with children do cheat.
Unfortunately we can't change anything in the past and so we don't know IF (or how much) anything would/might have changed.
This is exactly why Tired Girl points out that each A needs to be treated on its own. If you two are talking about his A then you only talk about his A. Why did he choose to have an A? (without using 'because you had one'). And when you are talking about your A's then you don't get to bring up his.
Such an adult way to do things. But oh so difficult when emotions are running high.
And with a remorseless spouse you don't really get to do any of that. You can only control you. I'm glad that you are feeling free now that you can be wholly honest. I think that's a huge step in feeling better about yourself. Every day that you can say that you are being authentic and true is another day that you can hold your head high and prove to yourself that you are not who you were. One day hopefully your H will notice.
Check out the 180. Maybe read some of the JFO / General / Reconciliation threads as usually in each one you can find someone who's also dealing with a spouse who just wants you to get over it and move on without 'working' on anything.
ETA: I'm fully aware of the remorseless spouse syndrome. I've got one on my hands. But no, I'm not 180'ing at the moment. Or maybe I'm doing a quarter-hearted one? He's gone NC with his OW (except for whatever conversations they have at work - which I'm sure there are but he says there are not) and I'm tired and totally behind at work. So I'm taking any little wins I get. This weekend may be different though.
UGH is right.
[This message edited by JustAShadow at 5:55 PM, June 19th (Wednesday)]
Exhausted & Spidey - how are you both?
So we are OK as long as we don't talk about A's. Or see pretty women around because he constantly comments on them (which I see as evidence of his lack of commitment - not because he notices women but he JUST broke up with one 'because he couldn't leave me'). But that's not triggery for me - it's just evidence of where we at. For the time being I'm grateful that NC on phone seems to be in force and he comes home on time. If we do part I need to have my job so I need to get back on track there.
I'm really HOPING that this counselor is a good one for me and that maybe I can start taking care of me and moving on to something better (whatever that is).
So, I consider myself in an OK place at the moment. Even though it's sort of not really anywhere. I'm thankful for this little crumb...at least for today.
ETA: On a slightly different note I'm worried about the possibility of a good counselor because anytime I have spent time trying to figure out what I want I end up in a severe depression...which is why I went the co-dependent route with my H. Take the focus off of me and then I don't hit those lows.
[This message edited by JustAShadow at 7:52 AM, June 20th (Thursday)]
I know that you are in a world of hurt right now and I'm so sorry for that. It still boggles my mind how much all of this hurts. It's unfathomable until you've been there.
To me, i cant get past what ive done to her. Even with yrs of ic(btw) down the toilet now.
How was IC for you? What kinds of things did you learn about yourself?
Would you have said 2 weeks ago (or a month ago) that your IC was down the toilet? Anything you've learned is still in there for you. It's just masked by the pain right now. But maybe recapping might help to remind you?
What's on the docket for you for today?
[This message edited by JustAShadow at 8:15 AM, June 20th (Thursday)]
So I am still struggling, I have told WH that he needs to sit patiently and honestly and answer every stupid question I have, even if its hard or he doesn't want to before I can even begin to heal. This is when he says he doesn't know what other questions I could possibly have and that I am not going to believe him anyway. He doesn't seem to see that the reason I may not believe him is that he has lied to me for the last month in regards to going to meet her the night he came home to "talk to me" I still do not have the details about all of that. So he did say that he would answer my questions, but just based upon the tone i received, granted these were texts, but answering with "I never said I wouldn't answer your questions but I dont know what questions you could have" or "yes I will sit down with you, name the time, but Im not sure what else you think there is to know" doesnt make me feel like he is really stepping up to the plate and willing to answer the questions. So due to a busy life, it looks like that conversation will happen this weekend, perhaps tonight, not sure yet.
He has a second job in a very social atmosphere. The night that I found all of this out it was because I observed him making inappropriate decisions and behaviors with other girls at this place (I work there occasionally on weekends as well). We have always had fun working there together until that night. Last night was my first night back there, I was not working, just hanging out while he did. I felt uncomfortable, it feels dirty to me now (it isnt anything dirty or scandalous). I went there last night in part because we had discussed me coming down and hanging out one night this week anyway, i ended up going because I knew that the OW was going to a sporting event which usually leads to fans coming to this place we work. This is not where he met OW, but it is where it became something more, it is where things were set into motion.
She didn't come in, but WH was pretty on his game trying to get out of there early, and I know she doesnt normally come in until later. I felt a little shadiness on his side, like he was so surprised to see me, and I couldnt tell if it was happy or not, seemed more like nervous, but maybe i was projecting because I was nervous. I know she will be at same event tonight with same opportunity, I will not be down there tonight.
Part of this bothers me because he says there has been NC, he keeps throwing it at me that I know he hasnt talked to her bc I can see the phone records (thats how I discovered her), he has said phone records so many times, that part of me thinks, yeah he keeps throwing that at me bc he knows Im not going to find anything because they are communicating a different way.
I don't believe that he was planning on meeting up with her, then said he would get ahold of her later, then I talked to her, then I texted him I knew about her and there has been no communication since. No "dude wtf your wife called" Nothing. He said he left our "talk" to go see her to apologize. He wasnt able to see her that night due to other reasons but he did go to the meet-up place, and then what nothign ever again? So you needed to leave me to apologize to her (at this point he had not apologized to me yet) and then decided on second thought never need to talk to her again.
My gut told me he was lying about going to meet her that night...he lied to me for a month that that is not the reason he was there...I jsut found out this week it was the reason. My gut is telling me that he is still in some form of communication with her as well...I dont know what to do.
Hope everyone else is better that I am today.
"I never said I wouldn't answer your questions but I don't know what questions you could have"
Yeah, I get this one too. I want to say to him, "Dude, I'll ask you those questions - no need for you to try to come up with them yourself!" Just another example of one's desire to avoid the topic and lack of commitment.
Were you able to read up on the 180? Sorry that I'm bringing that up again but everyone comments all the time about how you can only fix you. You can't fix/love/beg your spouse back to you.
Personally, I'm a slow implementer. I suspected the affair May 2013. I got an Ambien-induced comment that there was an interested person last June. 7/22/12 I learned for sure he was in an A. I've spent the last year (almost) trying to 'win' what I had lost. Obsessing, to my own personal detriment, and have not made any strides in terms of my own personal development. Although I did do periods of 180'ing this spring which I think got us, slowly, to wherever it is we are now.
Now, almost a year later I've made the call for a C but that's only because he's NC with OW. If I had evidence of contact I would be angry and obsessing still. When H and I are fighting my whole world feels off its axis (he says the same thing). But now, I'm seeing that what everyone has been saying is what needs to be done (worry about you and fix you). I've know (rationally) that it was true but I'm just not strong enough to do it on own (meaning without my H's help - and his 'help' is NC with OW).
And, I don't know if I'm going to tell him about the IC appt. He thinks IC is useless because people don't change (and I've not found good ICs in the past...or at least good-for-me ICs). And yes he is a C for his profession! A few years ago after my 2nd A ended I went to a couple/three IC appts. I told him after the first one. That led to an argument. He said, "It's like I don't even know who you are." So, from that perspective (and a 'normal' relationship perspective) I should tell him. But he's not interested in 'working' on "us" (he just wants us to 'be') so what's the point in telling him?
But if I'm trying to be 'authentic' I should tell him. But if it's going to be used against me then I shouldn't. And, he told me years ago that he'd never go to MC. Although he told his OW a couple of months ago that we WERE going to MC - that was one of his ways to try to end it with her. But he probably phrased it as "I'm going to MC so that we (he and I) can end on a good note." That's my assumption - because that is what he had written to her prior. I still sort of feel that that is what he's doing now. Sigh.
Sorry, I don't know where all of this rambling is coming from or if there is a point I'm trying to make.
THx for listening, regardless.
[This message edited by JustAShadow at 9:28 AM, June 20th (Thursday)]
So I was trying to avoid any issues until we could "talk" but couldnt and I jsut brought up something that happened on Sunday which led to a huge fight etc. I asked him some details, he claims he doesnt remember (there was a lot of alcohol involved), i believe that he doesnt remember but i then said based upon this and that that I know, this doesnt help me feel safe. Then I said can you understand how I feel that way. He said no, i dont understand it. I said you dont? he said no, i feel like you are just looking for a reason to hate me. I said i was jsut trying to talk to you. He said no spidey, you werent, you were accusing me of something, its the way you said it, you didnt even stop to listen to how you were talking to me. I said I wasnt trying to make him angry i was just trying to talk, he said again, no you werent. and it pretty much ended there. I told him I thought he was getting mad and i was just trying to tell him how I felt, and he said Im not mad but thats not what you were doing. I then got out of his car and went back to work (I was on a break).
I feel like he is so angry at me. He isn't owning anything. i honestly was not trying to accuse him of anything. I was trying to bring up the drinking issue and how I think we shouldnt drink until we are in a better spot, my point in highlighting his behaviors that night was to point out how he behaves when he drinks. i didnt think he was with OW that night what i thought was he drank too much and that leads to bad decisions (which he admits he made that night in general, as did I and admitted to). he told me he only stayed out and and didnt come home because i left him at the bar we were at. I honestly dont know if this is true or not (I have not committed to no drinking while trying to recover) but we have discussed his tendency to leave me and go god knows where when hes mad at me at 2 in the morning and he said he would stop, but he just did it again, i said i feel like you are justifying your choices because I left you there, instead of coming home you went out and by your own words to our friends that night you sat and had a beer with some girl that let you use her phone charger (which he could have already walked across the street to our home in the amount of time he spent charging the phone), his only response was seriously spidey? you ef'n left me.
i feel like I am the only one trying, he is just so angry. this didnt feel like him answering all my questions or being open to talking to me. I got out of the car and said im sorry this is not how i wanted this to go...he in the most sarcastic voice said really? how...how DID you want this to go. I feel like he is trying to drive me away so that I am the one that leaves, so he can say Spidey cheated but i stayed to work on it, when i did something much less, she couldnt deal and left me.
Anyone have any thoughts, I'm a mess.
And I can totally identify with how your conversation went down and the sarcastic response of 'what did you expect'.
I've not made it through the entire 40 pages of this thread yet myself but maybe read a bit from page 1? The first few pages may leave you a little confused as I think some items 'start' in the middle since they are continuations from a previous thread. But a page or two into it you'll find yourself on following track. And people smarter than I will join back in this thread with their perspectives.
Your friend who was the BS - what would you say to her if she came to you and said that her H wasn't willing to 'work' on the marriage or participate in recovery?
There's a thread in JFO (currently bumped up to page 1) called "Emotional Detachment: What is it? And how is it accomplished?"
You may want to give that a read. What are you doing for YOU today?
on a side note, sent WH a text all about how I wasnt trying to fight, this is how i feel, its a cycle we cant get out of i want to talk he thinks i hate him becomes defensive angry etc and i in turn feel worse about things etc. he sent me back seven texts about how sorry he is, wishes he could make it better frustrating to him he cant wave a wand (wish he could see that he could....if he would jsut talk to me get it all out there, that would be like a wand to me) is not giving up on us, is done effing things up etc. made me cry..but i had hundreds of these texts in the last month...need action....so much jsut need to see behaviors match words...i feel like mine have...UGH