So I guess my question to the MH community tonight is how closely do you and your S monitor each other?
I don't regularly monitor BF. I will randomly check through his emails and randomly check his texts ( a bit more regular).
I am unsure if he monitors me - I believe he doesn't. But after bringing my A back up to the surface and discussing this with him, he just the other night allowed himself to feel the pain and to talk through how he felt at the time.
I am now going back through my FB contacts and cleaning out any friends that I think were a part of my scenario in the past and were those friendships have not evolved.
I don't need even internet connections with these people. (not that I chat to them - but it is just more accountable).
He hasn't asked me to do that.
Why don't I regularly monitor him? I decided a couple of months back that me monitoring him won't change his choices. It needs to be ok for me to check at any time I choose - but it is more importatnt that he be accountable about where he is and what he has done.
I need to check once in awhile that he is honoring my trust.
At the moment if he wants to stay in touch with what I am doing when then he is welcome to.
the thing is in my A I never lied about where I was, who I was in contact. The blind siding that we were just friends was the perfect camoflage. This to a large degree was the case for him too. Until I suspected confronted and he went underground.
this has shown me that if womeone wants to be unfaithful, they will. I can only choose what I do once I find out.
I have invested in his remorse 100% - because I can. Because he shows me everyday with very little hiccup that he is totally completely remorseful.
Now we are fully honest about my unfaithfullness and are not minimising it (as we both were) I need to show this to him as well. Everyday - in big choices and small ones.
The above is just about him & me. I totally support anyone in applying the level of survellaince that gives them confidence.
JFO some stuff about H that points to SA. Really, really struggling to deal with it. He always accused me of hiding things, and more and more I'm realizing it's because he had so many deep, dark things he was hiding. Pretty much everything he accused me of, he is guilty of. I do try to be very gentle and understanding. It's completely reasonable for him to be upset and hurt and lash out at me at times, especially this close to D-Day. There are times where this gentleness and patience takes every last ounce of energy I have in me. Doesn't leave much to take care of myself. Today is a really rough day after the long phone call we had last night. Gotta get to work, though. Focusing at work is spotty at best, but at least it's a healthy escape from preoccupation with all things A.
It sounds like yesterday was another D-Day for you. You must be going through a very hard time right now. Keep posting. We're here for you.
I have been thinking of you. i am so sorry you have been confronted with new information. How are you going? Does the information relate to current actions or things he has hid from you in the past? I hope you are doing ok - considering! I am around if you need to talk at all. Take care.
The new info is stuff in the past, and a little of the ever-present. No new A's, in case that was what yall were worried about... Still, it's extremely difficult to deal with and move forward with grace.
H told me tonight he feels like me being on SI is an EA. He (again) said that I don't tell him my thoughts and feelings (although we talk about the A's every day for about an hour). He said if I'm sharing this with internet strangers and not him, then it's an EA.
I tell him how I feel! I don't like dealing with and addressing my feelings, and I do communicate that to him. But I'm doing because that is what we need for R. It's what he needs to feel reconnected. I do this. I tell him my thoughts and feelings. My IC said that he is constantly prodding me, accusing me of hiding feelings and more info about my A, because he has a need to believe that I am "worse" than he is. I don't even know what to believe anymore.
Is it possible that I think I'm sharing my thoughts and feelings with him, but I'm not? Is he invalidating my thoughts and feelings by telling me that I'm not sharing them with him, or sharing enough? What is the definition of "enough"? Isn't that something objective?? Is he just (subconsciously or consciously) manipulating me so that I will be more off-balance? As it is, I feel extremely off-balance... D-Day was traumatic enough, but "WTF Day" as I'm calling it, has me flat on my face still, crushed with anxiety and panic almost every waking part of my day.
Is SI an EA? Surely someone has brought this up before????
oh my gosh!!!!
(I have seen that raised somewhere else - in general I think ... I think it may have been sisoon, Aesir and maybe authenticone who I saw handle it REALLY well in their responses - I will try and do a little search and see if I can find the thread).
Sometimes I still am astounded by the false logic some people can use to kid themselves, or the dillusions they are prepared to spin to try and influence those they say they love.
Ok ... here is a big difference... An EA is done to be a false ego feeder. It is engaged in when we are bereft of emotional intelligence and look for external validation to feel the deficit in our minds and esteem
What you are trying to do here on SI is invest in your healing. To learn and grow. Put yourself out there to be challenged and questioned.
I think there is some extra courage around the process you have engaged in - acknowledging your own infidelity and working through the pain of your H's.
The fact that he has put this to I think is very reasonable grounds for you to reflect on wether he is trying to manipulate you, or continue to smokescreen himself and you.
It is not ok to limit your sources of support.
We are here for you NEM.
The original Dday was July 18th, 2010. Now 2years later, several RAs and counter RAs later we are now trying for genuine R. I intend to post here a lot and give and get support as we navigate this complicated mad hatter world.
Thats my introduction for now.
Complicated mad hatter situation
Status: With all the Ddays, lets just say the clock was set back to Jan 2012.
Its been 23years since the original Dday. now I have reached a point where I can be more realistic about my situation. Am I in real R? Honestly, no. I would define this more as a pleasant limbo. We have fun, we are really good friends but the wounds of the As are yet to be dealt with and so are not healing.
There has been a lot of vengeance on his side, from physical, emotional and now sexual abuse in order to pay e back for being unfaithful from the beginning of the relationship. His RAs ranged from repeat encounters to forming full blown relationships in front of me that lasted months, of which I have not received full disclosure as he has openly told me that he will only tell m e the truth when he feels I have told him everything, and he is obsessive that will never happen as it will never be good enough for him.
I have reached the point where I focus on myself. Asking myself questions like what is it that is deficient in me to cause such bad self esteem that I am willing to endure such abusive conditions in a relationship. I know that it is not healthy but still I stay, trying to understand why I stay.
I think I will await a response before I continue. I feel like I am having a monologue.
Your courage at beginning to look at your own healing is inspiring. I feel not well equipped to offer advice as I am only just beginning too.
In the sense that I feel I have looked in the face of my damaging choics now nearly a decade ago and changed my behaviour and actions. But I have never really seen my H's pain. I disclosed very close to my A and he claimed that he was happy that I was making the right choices and we 'moved on' I think he tryly belived this. He did not process how much he was hurt.
His A which went further physically and emotionally and over alonger period (including going underground) than mine (I am offering this to explain his perspective) he feels was so much worse - that he minimised it and on his remorse still did not look at his own hrt.
It is now 6 months later that he has been able too.
So for the first time I am looking at the conseqences and harm my choices have caused (rather than just the 'risk' of them)
I feel really new to understanding what that means and working through it.
You have lived through far too much. It is very important that you are able to name his behaviour as abusive. No matter what you do not deser to live in fear and feeling intimidated.
You have evey right to not live with violence, emotional abuse and manipulation.
I understand the rage that being betrayed evokes in someone.
In the early days to discovery I did raise my hands to my H. I am ashamed of my behaviour. If he left our home (or more deservedly asked me to leave) because of my violence acts he would have been completely justified.
Just as if I had done the same because of his infidelity.
I stand in my shame. I understand the state of mind and trauma I was in at the time - but I do no in anyway justify my violence.
I hope you are safe now. Pleas if you still feel intimated - please get help in real life.
Anyway I am not sure if any of this above has been any help. I just wanted to reality check that no matter how much pain he was in - his treatement and abuse of you was a seperate thiing. It came from his sense of entitlement and ownership of you.
he will only tell m e the truth when he feels I have told him everything, and he is obsessive that will never happen as it will never be good enough for him.
MegM- I am now trying to consider more carefully whether he is trying to manipulate and smokescreen me. His SA is scary to us both, and I think at times he wants to run back to his BS hat and seethe at me for a while because that's easier than dealing with being a SA at times. He is getting better at it, it seems, and I try to stand up for myself when I feel it is called for. Finding a balance is even more difficult now, but I think we're working on it.
In other news, he still is very paranoid about me going out with friends, even when I don't plan to drink more than 1 or 2, if at all. He doesn't have close friends near him usually that he goes out with, but he visited friends/family back home this week and there was an opportunity to go to a strip club to celebrate a last hurrah before he goes on an extended (months) work trip. He says they didn't go and sent me a pic of them hanging out in the hotel bar where they were, but I did feel very bristled and uncomfortable. He still doesn't like it when I want to go out with (girl)friends (still haven't gone out without him since D-Day). Again, I wonder about the balance of power. Bitching about "it's not fair!!" on either of our parts isn't helpful, but I am crabby that I have to check in with him when he seems to get off easier. I think it's semi-rationalized because my A is recent and his was years ago. It's hard to draw the line, but we're working on it.
In other news...
OW is now following H on Twitter!! He deleted her from Facebook a few days after D-Day, and while he was in his hometown visiting family/friends, she must have heard he was around and decided to internet stalk him and found him on Twitter. He told me last night about her following him so that I wouldn't freak out if I found it on my own. He insists he had nothing to do with it, and asked if I knew how to make someone "unfollow" you on Twitter.
To me, the logical thing is to delete your Twitter account if you can't figure out how to get someone to unfollow you, right? He doesn't really tweet anyway. Is there such a thing as private tweets? I'm on Twitter, but I'm not cool and really don't use it, so I don't know.
In other news, the vacillation I've felt between calm and panic attacks is now giving way to anger. Last night I was thinking about how I wanted to just fight people. I told H I wanted to kick OM's ass (I really do, I hate that disgusting slime ball). And that I want the chance to beat the shit out of OW. I could destroy OW, as she is a cream puff and I am capable of some raging energy, although I don't allow myself to let loose, except when working out.
Sigh. I need a shower.
Hope all you in MH land are doing okay this lovely Friday. Have a happy and safe weekend
That being said, I find that if either of us brings something up about the A's, it can create triggering in addition to a surge of defensiveness. Then you have two people who are both defensive and triggering which makes communication so difficult.
As a result, I think it makes us both a little reluctant to bring things up because the issues can become so big, so fast. It is so hard to control where the conversation goes. It's like a candle flame that turns into a forest fire!
Have any of you developed strategies for that?
W/H-currently has a new girlfriend. We are still living in same house.
An example of this: he is triggered by the OM's truck and there are several driving around town. He cliches every time he sees one and the OM lives 4 hours away. I try to grab his hand to help him through and ignore the fact that his skankmobile is still in our garage every night and he actually made out with one of them in it.
4 kiddos in lower 20's
“He has no idea how beautiful the ordinary becomes once it disappears."
MJ2M, very sorry to hear about your stitch.
I have come to a slow realisation that as WS (and BS), there is a point at which I do NOT HAVE to put up with any further abuse. It comes down to defining boundaries. She may continue her (emotional/manipulative) abuse but I dont need to play along. Offer her the proverbial cookie or cut her short if she tries her CA/PA manipulation/gaslighting or foggy BS she's accustomed to.
Obviously, the ultimate boundary is S/D which I am working towards since I do not believe there is anything left to salvage.
Mj2m; you should clarify your boundaries; state them, strengthen yourself and draw those lines. Small steps; you'll make a few blunders but you need to get strong; both for you and eventually for your kids.
Just FYI; in the last 2 months I rediscovered how broken she really is, how her "transparency issues" are just a smokescreen for more lies and distortions of the truth. This is 2 years into her supposed "working on R" and "getting it" re: transparency and honesty
A few things I learnt recently: hope is paralysing. When we hope for change in the other person; we're being untrue/inauthentic to ourselves and to those whom we bear responsibility for (the children).
He is still on the "your A was worse than my A" kick.
I get that a lot from W, even in a recent heated email exchange. Fact is that she cant stop comparing A's because she 'self-classifies' all of her A's as RA's. I call bullshinola on that. An A is an A - regardless of how you dress it up. (or s shit sandwich is a shit sandwich regardless of the condiments). Or, as WAL states: EVERY A is a RA.
In fact, he even said last night that he thought he had more justification for his A.
I quite feel she feels this way but is too scared to admit it. She *had* stated the opposite when she was deep in her fog, i.e. that *my A* was kind of justified - which I found unsettling; because it was almost as if she found an "out" for taking responsibility for her own A's KWIM?
I kissed a coworker in 1997. It was a brief EA plus that kiss. I wanna say 2 weeks total, but my best friend was working there at the time & I will confirm all details with her. I wasn't "attracted" to XOM, I just like that he thought I was "hot & sexy" & knew my XBF (longer story on that trigger). But I didn't really like him, didn't really know anything about him, wasn't really "into" him.
I confessed this to WH in 1999. I think it was towards the end of 1997 that it happened & told him in mid 1999, so I held onto that for about a year and a half.
I told him after his first A was exposed. I told him in our kitchen, before MC. He was apathetic at the time (he was still carrying on his affair, but I didn't know until recently). We didn't really discuss it because he really didn't care. I recall telling him tearfully & apologizing and then proceeding to take all the blame for his affair since I thought I was such a horrible person.
Fast forward to recently. He brought the incident (between me & XOM) up again about a month ago because he couldn't remember if it really happened or not. I confirmed it for him, went over the story again & had a lightning bolt realization of one of the "whys" as I was telling him.
So he started thinking about it again, and relayed the mind movies he was having about it in an email to me today. It sounded pretty awful, heartbreaking, and sad. It wasn't what had actually happened & I told him I would work out a timeline & details with the help of my friend if he wanted that. He said he did.
We have been having a pretty frank discussion today via email about XOM & his 2 MOW's. I felt awful, sad, so hurt that I hurt him back then & he is only now feeling the fallout from that. Itold him how much I wanted to hug him, hold him, and be there for him while he heard this story.
I asked him if he would like to make an appointment at our MC to go over the story, have support, and process it. He said is there something awful that we would need to be at MC to talk about it rather than face to face? I said yes, there is something awful, but it wasn't anything to do with XOM or some encounter with XOM that I was hiding. He said, "Tell me now".
So this is what I said:
When I was going through pictures last week with my Aunt, I came across one of you with a mustache and goatee. I asked you to do that at that time because XOM had a mustache & goatee.
He was not happy about that. I apologized & cried (but I have to hold back because my littles get upset when I cry) & the WH went into an SA meeting.
I told WH that I want to keep this betrayal to him separate from his betrayals to me. That he has the right to be heard, have his feelings acknowledged & validated, and that I will not throw his A's back at him when we talk about this. It will be "his time". I also said that this is an opportunity for me to empathize with while making him a timeline, and for him to empathize with some of my hurt feelings.
I'm wound up right now. I want him to not be upset with me, but he has his right I suppose.
Well there are a lot of overlaps between our stories - in terms of our own affairs (being so long ago) them being 'breif' with one physical encounter.
You of course are welcome to read my profile.
I disclosed in under a month to my H. - However, his reaction at the time was minimising and rugsweeping I didn't recongnise it as this I guess as I felt releived that we could 'move on'
I bought this up again when I first suspeected my H's affair - or atleast an inappropriate friendship and blurred feelings / attraction on his part.
He absolutely minimised my affair and any effect on him. because he was in the throws f his.
Very similar to your H.
He finally over the last month has begun to feel the hurt and to tell me about the hurt he felt at the time.
We are in therapy and our therapist is working on this with us at the moment.
I understand a lot of what you must be feeling. I really admire and give you credit for allowing your H. to work through his feelings. Especially when you are still so in pain yourself.
This is so to your credit - and takes so much discipline and emotional maturity.
I don't have actual advice. Just that I do understand - and that I am here too.
He absolutely minimised my affair and any effect on him. because he was in the throws f his.
Seems like she's still in those throes...
WH/BH's A's are super painful & one has been going on for years.
Part of me is like, "He didn't care 15 years ago when I confessed, why the hell does he care now???!!! To throw it in my face after his multiple A's?? To deflect?"
But who I am now is that it doesn't matter if he's being manipulative or if he just buried the hurt & pain over the years; I want to be proud of me.
So I will give him a timeline, listen to, acknowledge, and validate his feelings, answer his questions, be kind, caring, compassionate, apologize specifically for every betrayal within the A to him. I will do everything I can to clean this up with him.
I know I can't fix it, I want to, but I can't. I will do whatever I can to help him heal & process.
We are going through our divorce right now and we've got to a place where we are sort of friendly again. I've been thinking about how things went down with us and I feel like I really pushed him too far with demands after I found about his affairs. This may not really matter since my H says he wants the divorce and doesn't want to R but it still really bothers me.
As a madhatter is there a different expectation? Looking back I really think I asked for too much and I wasn't thinking about him as a BH. I think I acted too much like a betrayed spouse only.
How did everyone else deal with comparing their affairs? Its something my husband did a lot. He would say my EA was worse because we were married - he had his first affair before we were married and my EA was worse because it was me. That he never expected me to do something like this. I never really told him this but I think his affairs were much worse. He had sex with three other women. How is that less than kissing another guy and confessing right away?
He also had two revenge affairs for my EA and he told me that no guy would stay with a cheating wife without having a RA. I shut down after his second (and third) affairs and didn't really try to R. Maybe I should have. I was just so hurt by what he did. After he knew how much an affair hurts he did it anyways.
I've just come to the realization that it wasn't all his fault. I think right after he left I was willing to blame him for everything since he had cheated so much but I think that was unfair. I broke our marriage and my husband. He has told me he wouldn't have cheated on me again if I hadn't had the EA. I want to blame him for all of this but I don't think I can.
I believe there are 2 stages during/after A's which may come at different times.
The first stage is the realisation that something is wrong and this may or may not include a DDay.
The second stage is when BOTH spouses commit to R (and go NC).
Why do I mention these stages? My W never "snapped out of it" from her multiple A's and hence never felt a need to "work" at healing. On discovery of my PA, we were both not invested in healing-I tried to rugsweep and she didnt know how/or want to address it (and I feel due to her own A's which I didnt know of at the time, she minimised it and went on to justify more A's-just what she needed to make it all better ).
After HER DDay, was when I resolved to heal the M, but she was still minimising both our A's (and methinks, still in the throes of her As). She committed to (false) R multiple times yet was never truly committed-and not to this day.
Now imagine that AFTER both spouses commit to working/healing and one of them has an A (or A's), how it would be different from the previous stage where you "find out" but there is no commitment to heal or R...
I think thats where you suffer more JM. Dont be too hard on yourself for it.
A's suck and comparing A's sucks more (i.e. dont do it). But what I believe really sets up all of us for failure (MH or not MH) is what the WS in any stitch does AFTER DDay, and what they continue to demonstrate in that they're unsafe and enemies of the M (and the family)... It is entirely the onus of the WS to facilitate restitution or some form of equilibrium; if they relinquish that role-regardless of whether their spouse is also a WS; then they are truly speaking about who they are.
I do believe that there are people who are incapable of introspection, honesty or empathy. I believe I married a deceptively clever one from amongst them.