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User Topic: MadHatter's Only Thread
SI Staff
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Default  Posted: 8:57 AM, March 26th (Monday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

This thread is restricted to MadHatter's Only.

Posts: 10000 | Registered: May 2002
silverhopes
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Default  Posted: 10:11 AM, March 26th (Monday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Thank you mods.


Find peace. Or sleep on it.

Posts: 3762 | Registered: Jul 2011 | From: California
BooBoo!
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Default  Posted: 10:29 AM, March 26th (Monday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

definition of a madhatter please?

Posts: 630 | Registered: Aug 2011
metamorphisis
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Default  Posted: 10:30 AM, March 26th (Monday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Someone who wears "both hats". Both a BS and a WS.



“We don't see things as they are; we see them as we are.”... Anais Nin

Posts: 42804 | Registered: Sep 2006
rachelc
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Member # 30314
Default  Posted: 10:38 AM, March 26th (Monday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Thank you for this!
Currently dealing with? My AP moved 4 hours away. His AP works two blocks from him and we could run into her on occasion. I've seen her twice since DDay and it was emotional torture both time.
Has anyone else dealt with this? Do I just have to take it? Will it get better?


his Ddays: 2/10, 7/11
my Ddays: 1/12, 4/12 broken NC 12/12

me: 47
him: 51
4 kiddos in lower 20's

“Courage is the price that life exacts for granting peace."


Posts: 3654 | Registered: Dec 2010
frigidfire86
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Member # 32324
Default  Posted: 11:31 AM, March 26th (Monday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Thank you MODS!

I feel so guilty trying to set boundaries for my H since I'm a WS too. How do ya'll deal with the feelings of being a BS and not feel like crap? I feel like I have no right to be angry, betrayed, etc because I cheated too. My H rugsweeps when it comes to both his A and mine. He just doesn't want to deal with any if it. I think he believes we're even so there's no point in talking about it. Deployment really doesn't help either.


Me: 28
Him: 29
Married 8 years
Daughter, 7 yrs old
D-Day: 05/08/2011

Posts: 608 | Registered: May 2011 | From: Germany
tired girl
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Member # 28053
Default  Posted: 10:47 AM, March 27th (Tuesday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Frigidfire,

Are either of you in counseling? It sounds like this is being rugswept and that is generally not recommended. It should be dealt with on both sides, if you both can get healthy and set boundaries then the marriage will benefit.

Rachelc,

No, we have not had to deal with this so far thank God. I can say I have been really terrified of running into the OM at times, but it hasn't happened.

I'm sure it was very difficult for you, I know it would be for me.


Me43 Him 43 Hardlessons DS 24,22,20
D Day 1/18/10 his 3/8/2012 mine
Fear is a natural reaction to moving closer to the truth”
― Pema Chödrön

Posts: 3663 | Registered: Mar 2010 | From: az
frigidfire86
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Member # 32324
Default  Posted: 2:06 PM, March 27th (Tuesday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Tired Girl,

I have been in IC for months and its helped a lot. I wish he'd go to MC and IC, but he won't. He's currently deployed now so he can't anyway.


Me: 28
Him: 29
Married 8 years
Daughter, 7 yrs old
D-Day: 05/08/2011

Posts: 608 | Registered: May 2011 | From: Germany
JandAandE
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Question  Posted: 2:26 PM, March 27th (Tuesday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Thank you, mods, for making this thread. Finally a place where I can safely write about what's on my mind without fear of sounding like a hypocrite (even when that's exactly what I am).

Does anyone else struggle with comparing the affairs? Deep down I know that mine was "worse." It involved much more manipulation and deception, and contact lasted much longer. I know that if I were to tell all the details of both affairs, mine would universally be voted as the most detrimental.

However, I can't help feeling like somehow what H did was worse. That somehow in all of this, he holds more of the blame. I cheated first (he didn't know until years later), but I think I pat myself on the back for ending my A on MY terms. He only stopped his A because I backed him into a corner and made him do it. If I hadn't found out, I believe that he'd be OW now, and I'd be just a bad memory.

So I end up feeling like--and frequently playing--the victim in all of this. I make requests and demands that he never makes of me. I bring it up frequently while he rarely mentions it.

I do believe that I've owned my shit, as they say, and I have had a lot of time to get my head wrapped around the WHY of my own A. I don't think I've rugswept it at all. Maybe my own hurt just seems so unbearable that I get stuck focusing on that.

Any advice on how to even the imaginary playing field in my head?


Me: Madhatter
Him: Madhatter
My affair: 2007 for 3 months; confessed in 2010
His affairs: 2009 (ONS) and 2010 (3 months); I caught him.
Us: Married since '05; 3 kids ages 9, 6, and 18 months & another on the way.


Posts: 635 | Registered: Mar 2012 | From: Midwest
noescape
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Member # 34888
Default  Posted: 2:53 PM, March 27th (Tuesday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Thank you mods

Im in the same boat. Feel so hypocritical, yet I feel her As were so much more damaging to the M, THAT and the fact that since DDay she chose lies and deceit while I suddenly woke up from the fog and tried HARD for us both.

She's exactly as others may describe, a professional rugsweeper, almost relieved that we're 'even' since her As started years before mine. "Now we can just go on and build that great M dammit". She's wanted nothing to do with the issues of the As, almost feels like she wants me to believe they never happened.

Unfortunately, this has led to an unhealthy situation where I keep feeling/acting like the BS. I read, try to talk, tried hard for almost 2 years to defog her (which I recently realised can't be done, it's all up to her). She LOVEs limbo, rugsweeping and not having to do a damned thing about it, and she CAN behave that way because I'm WS and am the only one here admitting to a PA (yet).

Yet she had LTAs, multiple OMs and she never reached a point where I felt she was either remorseful or even tried unraveling her As. It's a hard place to be since I'd bared myself to her early on and yet she kept up her defences and TT and compartmentalising behaviours.

Also because I'm the WS, I don't know if/when I can call it quits and say that's it, I'm D'ing. Ideally I would like to resolve my As to her, she's shut me out and carries on doing it even more since MC failed.

I know I'm rambling, but my set of circs is very different from the typical BS I see here on SI and I hope to work through those while also trying to get some resolution on my being the WS and how I can fix myself from that and hopefully provide her with some restitution from it, even if she has no interest in providing me the same.


Posts: 739 | Registered: Feb 2012
Maxiom
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Member # 26001
Default  Posted: 3:00 PM, March 27th (Tuesday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Oi vey. We have had many discussions over the nature of both of our affairs. We aren't trying to compare or determine which was worse, but despite our efforts it can gravitate that way.

Regardless we both believe that we shouldn't be keeping score and call an immediate time out should our discussions head dangerously down that path.

I guess one of the major issues for us is timing. as the BS, I am pretty much fully healed.. but shes just a year out so as a result we are focusing more on what I did.


Me: FBS/WS 41
Her FWS/BS 41
My DDay - March 10, 2007 Whole Truth - May 2007
Her DDay - March 2, 2011
True NC March 3, 2011

Posts: 435 | Registered: Oct 2009 | From: Canada
noescape
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Member # 34888
Default  Posted: 3:47 PM, March 27th (Tuesday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I have to admit that initially I felt that I could lay the blame of my A on her since hers happened before (and I didn't know about them till years later). She even tried encouraging that thought since she felt that was her way of 'making up for the years of deceit' or a way for her to minimise her own As. I've come to the realisation that no, it was never a justification whether I knew about the As or not. If the M was broken and she was/had been involved with other men and I had the feelings of lack of intimacy and disquiet about something 'not being right', it would never suffice as a justification or lead to my unhealthy choices. THAT was my own lack of boundaries mixed up with tons of other issues, which, in a nutshell, were selfishness and entitled thinking.

I feel that as a madhatter, I've been alternating in extremes between feeling betrayed and feeling disgust/helpless at myself. Having a W who does not want to engage doesn't help either. But I need to own my actions and my reactions. Being in limbo in this one relationship in my life is no excuse for ignoring other parts of my life and myself. I need to move beyond the BS feeling. 2x4s anyone? Any words of wisdom?


Posts: 739 | Registered: Feb 2012
noescape
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Default  Posted: 3:55 PM, March 27th (Tuesday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

We aren't trying to compare or determine which was worse, but despite our efforts it can gravitate that way.

I tried talking about this earlier on, nearer DDays, and I was so very wrong in trying to essentially minimise my A and somehow show her how her As were 'worse'. HUGE Mistake, specially with someone who already had major shame issues. I am beginning to see how, rather than honesty, we needed compassion which we critically lacked for each other. Being madhatters, we should've been able to empathise with the WS side of each other better. Is it even politically correct to say that?


Posts: 739 | Registered: Feb 2012
JandAandE
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Default  Posted: 4:02 PM, March 27th (Tuesday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Noescape,

I have struggled a lot because my H just doesn't want to talk about either of our affairs. He thinks we should be "over it" by now, and he blames my inability to move on for our current issues. In fact, he's gone so far as to threaten to divorce me if I don't let it go.

But I think--and yes, I've told him this--that by silencing me and ridiculing me for still thinking about it, he's actually doing more harm to our M at this point than I am. Of course I'd LOVE to reach a point where I don't think about it every single day, but most of the time I feel like he's left me to handle this on my own.

He claims that he's over my affair and that he doesn't see the need to talk about it anymore. Maybe that's true, and maybe that works for him. But it doesn't work for me, or for us.

In other words, I feel your pain.

[This message edited by JandAandE at 4:03 PM, March 27th (Tuesday)]


Me: Madhatter
Him: Madhatter
My affair: 2007 for 3 months; confessed in 2010
His affairs: 2009 (ONS) and 2010 (3 months); I caught him.
Us: Married since '05; 3 kids ages 9, 6, and 18 months & another on the way.


Posts: 635 | Registered: Mar 2012 | From: Midwest
noescape
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Member # 34888
Default  Posted: 11:30 PM, March 27th (Tuesday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I have seen many here and also on other forums explain that the PTSD wears off by 6 to 12 months. I have heard the obsessing and late nights, lack of appetite and feeling of disjointedness also wears off in that time frame. The explanation being that your body can only run on adrenalin for so long. I've yet to come out of that stage 2 years on. I still stay up nights, still obsess over the littlest of details of the As, still am overcome by grief and remorse as I did in the first few months post DDay, the only difference being that WS has stopped bothering for the past year.

I try to explain, in a language apparently she cannot comprehend, that I don't stay up late or read obsessively etc... Out of choice. It's something I do not dictate to myself, it's not something I can switch off. I really do think she cannot grasp this since she is an emotionally unavailable/avoidant person, with great compartmentalisation skills and a host of PA issues. I sometimes have no clue WHO I married. It's frustrating bordering on despair. she has no capacity for empathy either. Why does this matter? Because I feel like such a fool. And so stung by the injustice of it all; I've been mostly an open book throughout this M and specially since DDay. I'm now managing my own PA responses and trying to ensure I do not carry resentments. Yet, she took me for a ride through the TT months and now feels like I have no right to know her, we have four kids together for gods sake!!!??? I do not know her or her real truths or her real self, I had bared all and been entirely naked to her as part of the R process I felt we both committed to post DDay. I feel so betrayed on top of the As since she basically took me for a ride through the months she pretended to be working on R... with lies and obfuscations.

/end rant...


Posts: 739 | Registered: Feb 2012
silverhopes
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Member # 32753
Default  Posted: 11:41 PM, March 27th (Tuesday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I feel like he's left me to handle this on my own.

I feel this way too JandAandE.

[This message edited by silverhopes at 11:00 PM, April 27th (Saturday)]


Find peace. Or sleep on it.

Posts: 3762 | Registered: Jul 2011 | From: California
dzaster
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Member # 30977
Default  Posted: 2:18 AM, March 28th (Wednesday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Thank you Mods...this may be a new hangout for me too.

I think all the comments so far are right on with what I have experienced as well.

He had two EA's prior to my PA, but in his mind that can't compare because "nothing physical happened" with him.

Then in his anger and rage stage, I allowed him to dirt on me for 6 months having RA after RA while living with me, sleeping in the same bed, having sex, and oh yeah...financially supporting him because he has been unemployed for most of the past 3 years.

Being on both sides can really mess with your head in so many different ways.

And to RachelC - yes, I still see FOM and FOMBW around town as well as DH's FOW. We all have kids that are around the same age and they participate in a lot of the same activities...so it's even more of a mess.

Slowly starting to find a new "normal" in our lives.


Me - FBW/FWW 39, Him - FBH/FWH 40, DS - 16, DS - 13
His D-days: 2001, 2008, multiple 2011
My D-Day: 11/19/10
R-day: June 2011...going well
"Every new beginning comes from some other beginning's end" - Semisonic

Posts: 201 | Registered: Jan 2011 | From: California
noescape
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Member # 34888
Default  Posted: 5:23 AM, March 28th (Wednesday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Do you ever get the "of course she/he did this because thats what i ended up doing" specifically relating to the progression of the A's? e.g. online->flirting->EA->PA->fantasy acting out....

Posts: 739 | Registered: Feb 2012
rachelc
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Default  Posted: 7:00 AM, March 28th (Wednesday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I actually had sex with two guys - he kissed her twice, or so he says and I believe him being I caught him right away. Thing is, he did it AFTER he knew what being a betrayed spouse is like. He knew what it would feel like to me yet he still did it. Also, I confessed, he did not. These are the things that are currently floating around in my head I'll just have to live with.
I have prided myself on being someone of character and integrity since my affairs. I think he has had a couple lies since then. It's devastating. I just posted on the other board when someone asked if its ok to polygraph months/years later....


his Ddays: 2/10, 7/11
my Ddays: 1/12, 4/12 broken NC 12/12

me: 47
him: 51
4 kiddos in lower 20's

“Courage is the price that life exacts for granting peace."


Posts: 3654 | Registered: Dec 2010
silverhopes
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Member # 32753
Default  Posted: 12:48 PM, March 28th (Wednesday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Frigidfire86 wrote:

I feel like I have no right to be angry, betrayed, etc because I cheated too.

That's a pretty rough feeling, huh? But those feelings are real. That's why forgiveness is so hard. It's forgiveness toward yourself for harming another person, and forgiveness toward another person for harming you.

I think this is something important to talk about with your husband. Talk about your whys. Examine what you told yourselves to make it okay. Look underneath the "revenge" aspect and take responsibility. And make a commitment to each other to accept and forgive. That doesn't mean rugsweep. Both of you are going to need healing. Both of you are going to hurt. Cheating and being cheated on doesn't make two people "even." It makes them more hurt.

I know, easier said than done. My H doesn't want to talk about it either. It's like we see an example of infidelity on TV and then use it to forward our discussions a little more. It feels more like dancing with the matters than just straight confronting them. Don't know what to do about that.

rachelc wrote:

I've seen her twice since DDay and it was emotional torture both time.
Has anyone else dealt with this?

In our case, there's a chance my OM still lives in this neighborhood. Fortunately, it's a big neighborhood, and I don't go out very frequently. I stay away from streets that are triggering, and I don't look around when I go out. I listen to music and focus on my son.

As for H's OW, he lived with her for a few more weeks after I learned about his EA. I'm sure it was still going on. There's one place that makes me think of her, so I avoid it (triggers). Neither of us have see either AP since each A ended - thankfully so. It's been over two years for each.

H has run into other women he's been inappropriate around since then. One time I was with him, and he tried to include me in the conversation. I made it a point to thank him for it. Encourage the behaviors that make you feel safe. Acknowledge them in your spouse.

I think that banishing them mentally will help to banish them physically, so even if they were to pass by, you're less likely to notice them. Try it?

JandAandE wrote:

Does anyone else struggle with comparing the affairs?

Sometimes. I used to: "mine was worse because because I should have known better." "H's was worse because his was first in our relationship." "Mine was worse because OM was an ex." "H's was worse because he was actually enjoying his." "Mine was worse because it happened during H's episode." "H's was worse because he lied to OW about me and him dating, even though she knew me." "Mine was worse because it would have included assault and criminal charges." "H's was worse because he did "couple" things with her." "Mine was worse because I gave OM $5 (H never gave OW money)." "H's was worse because he didn't tell me about his; mutual friends outed him (I told voluntarily 5 days after mine happened)." "Mine was better because I stopped it before I crossed the final line (did not get in his car, did not go anywhere with him, did not let him come in, did not spend more than thirty seconds in his presence, did not kiss (we hadn't during our "relationship" anyway), did not touch, did not say "I love you", did not treat him with tenderness or "lovingness", did not assault him - said "NO")." "H's was better because he was genuinely happy being with her ("we talked", "she could talk for hours, so I listened to her", "I masturbated to her", "we drank tea together", "she told me everything about her sex life", "she's full of innuendos", "I told her about the guy I saw masturbating", "we sat next to each other on the sofa everyday at the group meetings")." "At least in neither case did either of us cross the physical line (that I know of), except for H masturbating to her... "

Yeah, I could go back and forth... but why? I made choices, and I am responsible for those choices. There is no need to compare whose betrayal was worse: they were both betrayals. The only one I have any control over is mine. So I should be focusing on that one.

noescape wrote:

Ideally I would like to resolve my As to her, she's shut me out and carries on doing it even more since MC failed.

I'm sorry if you already talked about this... Why did MC fail? Did you both decide to stop going?

Maxiom wrote:

Regardless we both believe that we shouldn't be keeping score and call an immediate time out should our discussions head dangerously down that path.

That sounds like a good thing to be aware of. How do you build your discussions around A's so you both feel you're listening and being heard?

dzaster wrote:

I allowed him to dirt on me for 6 months having RA after RA

Has he stopped? Have you stopped putting up with this? I understand if you feel guilty, like you don't have a right to say anything because of your own A. But having an A doesn't mean you "deserve" to be cheated on back! There is no "making it even". He doesn't have an excuse to have more A's. That he had two in the first place is a big indicator that he'd already rationalized it before, so he probably used the same rationalization (read: lies) plus one: you did it, so it must be okay for him to do it again. It isn't.

Please, protect yourself. What if he gets another woman pregnant - that would take a huge toll on your finances for the next 18 years. Or what if he brings home a death sentence - an STD? That's not okay. Having "r"As is still his choice.

How have your conversations gone since the RAs? Are you two in MC? Do you feel you have a safe place to share your feelings and take responsibilities without fearing that he'll be prompted to yet another A to "even the score"? Please, recognize this behavior of his as "entitlement" issues on his part. The wrong choice. After all, you didn't have another A to "balance out" his RAs, did you? Cuz that would just be cyclical. You're doing the work; expect the same of him if he plans to R with you.

[This message edited by silverhopes at 2:11 PM, March 28th (Wednesday)]


Find peace. Or sleep on it.

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