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I Can Relate     Print Topic    
User Topic: Betrayed Men- Part 8
jjct
♂ Member
Member # 17484
Default  Posted: 8:07 PM, April 5th (Thursday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

PROLONG my suffering

Posts: 6012 | Registered: Dec 2007 | From: texas
jjct
♂ Member
Member # 17484
Default  Posted: 8:09 PM, April 5th (Thursday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

...and get in my head,
There!
fixed it.

Posts: 6012 | Registered: Dec 2007 | From: texas
jjct
♂ Member
Member # 17484
Default  Posted: 8:14 PM, April 5th (Thursday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

How did you guys know that you wanted to R? WW is "doing everything she can", but I still find myself on the fence. The resentment and disgust consume me.

You want the real answer?

I didn't know...for close to three years. Seriously. I was on the fence every day. In the morning, I'd be sure I couldn't take another second of the bullshit and plan to visit an attorney on my way home from work, and by noon, I'd be thinking I could hang in there and see what happened.

Kids were a big part of that, wanting to make sure that I didn't make major life-impacting decisions for them on a whim.

The disgust and resentment were big deals, but once I learned to bull my way through sex while imagining constantly that it was the OM fucking my wife, I could handle that. It's par for the course. Once you remember that you weren't the first person she had sex with and any gimmick of special-ness was just a lie you told yourself from the start, you can get over that piece, too.

"Special" like "vow" are empty words we use to pacify our fears, at least when we apply them to people outside of ourselves. They're the stories we tell ourselves so we won't have to remember how perilous and lonely the human experience really is. They're nice dreams, don't get me wrong, but they're still just illusions, because they're dependent on forces outside of our control.

This is part of the reason that the critical questions you should be asking right now aren't "Can I/Should I try to save my marriage?" but "How can I heal myself? What do I need to recover from this?"

The guy who stabs you in an alley isn't the one you go to for stitches to patch you up. Same thing with infidelity. You can't look to your WW to heal you. She has an agenda of avoiding abandonment. That's going to be her motivation for a long time. How can she save the marriage, convince you that there are so many reasons to stay, that you'd be a fool to give up what you've got.

Shit.

The person who wields the knife should not have the privilege of healing the victim. They shouldn't be given the opportunity to claim pride and victory for patching you up and presenting a stronger, healed you to the world, as though the stabbing wasn't a big deal -- just a bump in the road. Achieving that victory over a campaign of intentionally aimed malice and emotional violence should be yours alone. You should be able to say at the end of it, "I did this. I healed me. I did it on my own and emerged unbowed. Whatever it took to become whole, I did it."

The primary contribution your WW makes to that process is to stop creating new hurts, stop fucking other people, and not doing things that hinder your recovery. She starts that process by getting her own shit straightened out, whatever that might be. She has to do that just to keep the possibility of R on the table, not to earn her way into it like it should be a foregone conclusion.

But you don't need her in order to heal. You'll come through this, you'll learn how to cope, how to overcome, and eventually you'll come to see what a badass you are.

And you'll be proud of yourself for not sucking at the tit of your attacker for strength to carry on.

And when it comes right down to it, then you can R if you see sufficient value in it, but you'll know you don't have to. You can have whatever you want, and you deserve the best that's out there...

Don't miss this now! Some of the most sublime things I've ever read on SI now.
BM)))))
whose eyes r tired of baknforth


Posts: 6012 | Registered: Dec 2007 | From: texas
westerly
♂ Member
Member # 34280
Default  Posted: 3:26 AM, April 6th (Friday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Don't know why I haven't posted in these threads. I hang around Reconciliation, which is ironic seeing that I'm not quite ready to commit to that until fWW gets her shit together.
WincingAtLight's comments are pretty bleak, but seem to be accurate in my case. Shirley Glass mentioned, too, that there's a terrible irony in that the person who's help we most need is the least suited to give it.


me- 39, American (BS)
her- 45, South American (WS)
1 child (my stepson)
EA discovered 3/10
D-day (PA discovered) 8/11
D-day II, April 8, 2013 (while overseas w/family)
Attempting R, despite relapse.

Posts: 126 | Registered: Dec 2011 | From: At sea, away from family
reallyscrewedup7
♂ Member
Member # 30825
Default  Posted: 11:32 AM, April 6th (Friday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

DD

Sorry it has come to this, but I am glad you are finding your strength. Sometimes it really hurts (us) to acknowledge that no matter how much we love our WWs, we cannot fix them. And if they do not want to be fixed, well, that is on them. Hurts like hell, especially for men that are fixers.

WAL

Preach on brother. You should capture that and post it in JFO. Every BH needs to internalize that message. Nothing hinders our healing more than thinking we need our WWs to help heal us. All it does is leaves us a heaping pile of pathetic wallowing in our own pain.


Infidelity sucks shit

Posts: 879 | Registered: Jan 2011 | From: Finding my way
hardlessons
♂ Member
Member # 35025
Default  Posted: 12:22 PM, April 6th (Friday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Looking for advice or smack in the head, whatever. When I found out what my wife did, I was crushed but I did what I always do and stuff it, put it away and firmly placed my stoic face on. Two years later I had an EA because I never worked on my issues and my inability to communicate or own my shit, because I’m an idiot. Which is weird because in my work life it is all so clear and easy to communicate and responsible. But my emotions have never been that way for me personally. Anyway so here I am 2 years later trying to process this gaping wound feeling like an idiot for not noticing it or taking stock of it. Now I make it so much more difficult being a WW.

So I guess my question is this; can I, should I, how do I deal with this? I have my first IC next week, on my second book and reading and posting on SI, but I am worried about my anger/hurt interfering with my BS recovery. I am sure I am not the first person in this particular brand of Fucked UP on SI or similar.

Looking for info/advice/books whatever on how to deal with being the fucked and ass hole at the same time.


Me WH
Wife Tired Girl
3 adult sons
"a wayward...annnnd just a tad betrayed."

Posts: 838 | Registered: Mar 2012 | From: Arizona
StillGoing
♂ Member
Member # 28571
Default  Posted: 12:13 AM, April 7th (Saturday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Hardlessons -

Advice: Be honest even though it burns. With yourself most of all.

Books: Not Just Friends by Shirley Glass and The Black Company by Glen Cook. Black Company has nothing to do with infidelity but it's the first book of the most awesome fucking fantasy series ever. I will fly out and punch the cat of anyone who says otherwise. On my own dime.


“Fate is a fickle bitch who dotes on irony.”

Posts: 7109 | Registered: May 2010 | From: USA
StillGoing
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Member # 28571
Default  Posted: 12:26 AM, April 7th (Saturday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

"Special" like "vow" are empty words we use to pacify our fears, at least when we apply them to people outside of ourselves. They're the stories we tell ourselves so we won't have to remember how perilous and lonely the human experience really is. They're nice dreams, don't get me wrong, but they're still just illusions, because they're dependent on forces outside of our control.

Naw. Other people are outside our control. Personally I don't think a vow is empty until you dump it out for thinking it's full of shit.

There is no force beyond my control that can make me compromise my beliefs against my will. That's something I own if it happens, which makes it a very bleak reality, unfortunately.


“Fate is a fickle bitch who dotes on irony.”

Posts: 7109 | Registered: May 2010 | From: USA
westerly
♂ Member
Member # 34280
Default  Posted: 9:22 AM, April 7th (Saturday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Hardlessons, you can look at Madhatter-related posts and get a feel for what others have done and failed to do, I guess.
With IC, you get out of it what you put in. I did 4 months of IC after d-day and got some god things out of it, and a crisis unrelated to my M got me to admit to my shrink that I was sexually abused as a kid, something I had never told anyone but fWW. It changed the course of IC, and fully opening up finally enabled me and the shrink to to start putting pieces together to get me to own my own shit and map out a plan for myself.

I only include that to note that you need to be honest with yourself and your shrink, which is really hard to do, and also requires a distinct connection between you both- something you may or may not find with your first IC. Your making a good start by noting that you have to take stock in yourself before you can really work on more complex external issues.


me- 39, American (BS)
her- 45, South American (WS)
1 child (my stepson)
EA discovered 3/10
D-day (PA discovered) 8/11
D-day II, April 8, 2013 (while overseas w/family)
Attempting R, despite relapse.

Posts: 126 | Registered: Dec 2011 | From: At sea, away from family
wincing_at_light
♂ Member
Member # 14393
Default  Posted: 10:57 AM, April 7th (Saturday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Naw. Other people are outside our control. Personally I don't think a vow is empty until you dump it out for thinking it's full of shit.

There is no force beyond my control that can make me compromise my beliefs against my will. That's something I own if it happens, which makes it a very bleak reality, unfortunately.

You're right, of course. We are completely in control of our own side of keeping a vow.

I was thinking of "vows" in the context of promises made by others to us -- we can't force them or obligate them to keep theirs -- but I should have been more explicit.


Machiavellian idiot savant

Posts: 6687 | Registered: Apr 2007 | From: Indiana
hardlessons
♂ Member
Member # 35025
Default  Posted: 11:29 AM, April 7th (Saturday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Still going and westerly, thanks. Reading not just friends now and will check out the black company, will let you know about that, i was a huge fan of Elric - Micheal Moorcock series back in the day.


Me WH
Wife Tired Girl
3 adult sons
"a wayward...annnnd just a tad betrayed."

Posts: 838 | Registered: Mar 2012 | From: Arizona
westerly
♂ Member
Member # 34280
Default  Posted: 6:42 PM, April 8th (Sunday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Wasn't me that suggested the Black Company books, but I remember them- they were a great distraction.


me- 39, American (BS)
her- 45, South American (WS)
1 child (my stepson)
EA discovered 3/10
D-day (PA discovered) 8/11
D-day II, April 8, 2013 (while overseas w/family)
Attempting R, despite relapse.

Posts: 126 | Registered: Dec 2011 | From: At sea, away from family
noescape
♂ Member
Member # 34888
Default  Posted: 7:21 AM, April 9th (Monday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

LOL@jjct

thanks for clearing up the mess I made :D

WAL, fucking awesome... wow man...


The guy who stabs you in an alley isn't the one you go to for stitches to patch you up.
.................
She has an agenda of avoiding abandonment.
.................
The person who wields the knife should not have the privilege of healing the victim.
.................
as though the stabbing wasn't a big deal -- just a bump in the road.
.................
The primary contribution your WW makes to that process is to stop creating new hurts, stop fucking other people, and not doing things that hinder your recovery. She starts that process by getting her own shit straightened out, whatever that might be. She has to do that just to keep the possibility of R on the table
.................
But you don't need her in order to heal.
..........
And you'll be proud of yourself for not sucking at the tit of your attacker for strength to carry on.
..................
And when it comes right down to it, then you can R if you see sufficient value in it, but you'll know you don't have to.

This stuff needs to be stickied and put on JFO for all BS's out there.

This flies in the face of so many infidelity "experts" out there who sing the "R, R, R" song/mantra, yet have no inkling (mostly) of a mans perspective on being betrayed.

Also learned something new today: DETACH. Great advice all around guys, this is GOLD.

@hardlessons
There's a thread on ICR called madhatters. I'm there too. Its someone who wears both hats: BS and WS. Contrary to common perceptions, being a madhatter is NOT easier (as some may say-you can empathise with your WW/BW), in fact, in my stitch, I would say its a LOT harder. Whatever the view, all A's are fucked up and a huge mind cluster fuck. I would suggest you read up on BM part 6 & 7. Also try going through the FAQ's - depending on the day of the week, you may want to look up both BS and WS related advice, hang in there.


Posts: 739 | Registered: Feb 2012
wert
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Member # 34478
Default  Posted: 8:07 AM, April 9th (Monday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I need a 2 X 4 in the head.

The primary contribution your WW makes to that process is to stop creating new hurts, stop fucking other people, and not doing things that hinder your recovery. She starts that process by getting her own shit straightened out, whatever that might be. She has to do that just to keep the possibility of R on the table, not to earn her way into it like it should be a foregone conclusion.

In the mean time...WW is in IC and working on 'things.' She is working harder around the house and I have stopped with doing many of the chores I used to do. We are in MC. We are talking better than we used to. I had asked her for a few things (trying to make me feel special - initiating sex, writing me letters, setting up weekends away - basically putting sometime in to thinking about me) and she really has not done that. I asked last night why not and she said, not enough time (she has more to do than me) and I have been distant. Fuck her.

So she is working on herself, great. I can heal myself, great and am, great. What about the mean time? A sexless, loveless marriage waiting for her to figure out her shit when she doesn't have enough time?

I put my little kids down every night. They are why I am still in the house or more to the point why I haven't kicked her out. I am ready to move on, but am giving it more time for them. Waiting to see if she gets her shit straight. I don't have much faith.

BTW - Definition of shit straight is to be able to have a meaningful sexual relationship, initiate conversations about the marriage and future with me and put time and effort into us.

She is currently in school which takes much of her time. She has made that a priority over our M. That won't change.

What do you all think? Whack away.




Posts: 1364 | Registered: Jan 2012
wert
♂ Member
Member # 34478
Default  Posted: 8:10 AM, April 9th (Monday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Also learned something new today: DETACH. Great advice all around guys, this is GOLD.

Agreed. I don't get how you detach and not separate. Maybe it is just about not giving two shits.



Posts: 1364 | Registered: Jan 2012
wert
♂ Member
Member # 34478
Default  Posted: 8:32 AM, April 9th (Monday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Looking for info/advice/books whatever on how to deal with being the fucked and ass hole at the same time.

Hardlessons - "Act with Love" Sounds like a bunch of crap and is somewhat. That said, I have found the mindfulness aspect of Acceptance Commitment Therapy to be helpful in working with my own head. The basic concept is our brains are wired to adapt and send us all sorts of stories and thoughts, begin present in the moment and acknowledging those stories and thoughts assists in being more objective about them and less reactionary.

It has helped me with anger and to really listen to the crap my WW is saying. To figure out where she really is and not just react to what she says. My two cents.



Posts: 1364 | Registered: Jan 2012
reallyscrewedup7
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Member # 30825
Default  Posted: 8:33 AM, April 9th (Monday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Wert

Have you asked her why she wants a sexless marriage with you? Is she punishing you for perceived crimes? Is she so ashmed of her failings? Has she even thought of why she is forcing you to live in a marriage devoid of intimacy?

Don't be afraid to ask and demand answers. You are obviously to the place where you are ready to file. That gives you all the power you need to get to give you a straight answer.

If she has really checked out from a true marriage, then save yourself years of misery and move on. You can only save yourself.


Infidelity sucks shit

Posts: 879 | Registered: Jan 2011 | From: Finding my way
wert
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Member # 34478
Default  Posted: 8:56 AM, April 9th (Monday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

reallyscrewedup7 - She has said, it is not a priority for her and I have been distant so she does not feel close to me. Sex is 'hard' for her if she doesn't feel close.

I would not say I am close to filing. My kids and my ability to see them everyday is an incredibly strong influence in me staying. I can tolerate an awful lot for them.



Posts: 1364 | Registered: Jan 2012
noescape
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Member # 34888
Default  Posted: 10:24 AM, April 9th (Monday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Wert))) I know where you are. We're in the same boat. Never has time for working on me or the M or the (largely false) R, nor time to talk or write. But hey presto, time suddenly materialises for a myriad of things, just not anything she promises (or promised) me, sex included. Oh so busy when it was working on us or owning her shit, etc... Fuck that. It's still HER problem.

FYI, Detach:

Don't
Even
Think
About
Changing
Her


Posts: 739 | Registered: Feb 2012
SuperDuperWonderboy
♂ Member
Member # 34716
Default  Posted: 11:27 AM, April 9th (Monday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Hey fellas. I have nothing insightful to add. I'm detaching right now. Too much continuing damage. She is a little girl with a big fucking hammer that she just keeps swinging away. Then when she breaks something, she promises not to swing the hammer anymore. Till I turn my back again. Then.....crash. More broken shit.


My Friends call me Wonderboy--That's Mr. SuperduperWonderboy to you Tred.


Posts: 1267 | Registered: Feb 2012 | From: Everett
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