63? Damn, that's a small army. I'm envious, I only have 9. 4 rifles (2 30-30's, 22, 8MM Mitchell Mauser), 1 shotgun, 4 hand guns (Blackhawk Ruger .357, S&W 9mm and .38, 25mm).
What's in your collection? Screw revenge man, brag about your arsenal.
If you can, even in a general way explain this:
I'm fluctuating between Rage and Hate and indiffence for my wife (but for entirely different reasons than the A)
I'm fluctuating between Rage and Hate and indiffence for my wife (but for entirely different reasons than the A)
This is hard to explain.
I think the Rage is mostly about me. I believe I have done everything possible to get the best possible outcome. - Honest, Remorseful, Loving wife
- Happy and healthy undamaged kids
- Understanding, Forgiving, Honorable me
I failed. The blinding uncontrollable anger is directed at me. Not only can't I live up to the example that my parents have shown me, I can't in turn show that same example for my kids. For two years everything I have done good and bad hasn't lead to success just failure. I don't fail in my professional life very often, I'm stubborn but in most cases that stubbornness is used to succeed in the end. I may fail along the way multiple times but I always can step back and take a different approach as many times as possible until I succeed. I never give up. I fix it.
I failed my family. I get so worked up and angry at my self that I failed them and that I can't fix this that I in turn just fail them more. I feel like there is no way to win, which means I give up .... I never give up... so there I go failing again. endless loop.. no debugger screen to show me where, no syntax checker on life.....
Hate ... I hate my life the way it is. I hate her ( I love her) I hate what she has done... I hate to choose from the choices that are available, I hate these fuckheads. Every day usually at least 3 times each (drive to work, drive back home, falling asleep) day since dday I have thought of their destruction in my head. that's 2+ years of crap in my head. I hate that I am can't make any of it come true. I hate that I let my older kids see me broken ( 21yr boy, 24yr girl). I hate that I have to hide so much of my feelings when I'm at home, at work, in public.. I hate that I don't know the truth (she lies) I hate lies (from anybody) I hate that she won't tell me the truth more now even more than I hate lies if that make s any sense. I hate that she will not open up to me about anything. I hate that I can't fix this. I hate her but I love her and I hate myself for still loving her.
The only escape is indifference, but so much is lost when I reach that place. It's the only way to win but it's just another failure.
So maybe it's still based in part on the A but mostly it is on the stuff that happens afterwards. I accept the fact that it did happen, I think I know the progression of events and conditions that lead her there. I accept what happened in the un-enlightened past. I don't accept that now we both know many of the broken bits but that she (and sometimes me) chooses not to do anything about it. I have told her what I need. She agreed to do it.. she seldom follows thru and when she does it's with no conviction.
I 2nd the good idea with the guns. I did the same.
I tracked down some of the other men. All but one ran away like pups with their tails between their legs. I'm so glad they did.
Here is why I won't do it again. One night I was drinking at home, my boy stopped by for a visit. I'd spent the whole day thinking about killing this one fuker I was just sitting there drinking and staring at the couch that he fucked her on. I decided to get rid of it. It wouldn't fit out the door. I chopped it up with machete, there where metal springs so I got out the circular saw ( busted every tooth). it was still there. I got the chainsaw......................then stupid happened again she tried to stop me I confronted her about it and wanted to know the story about the couch. ( I had txts but she was silent) I decided that I should go find him. I walked 5 miles in the dark heading to his house ( I think I still had the machete with me) My boy came to stop me.
Why did I not keep going.. why won't I do it again...the look in his eyes. The fear and confusion and shame of how he must see me now.
The confrontations bring a moments satisfaction and even some good feelings of I showed him... but in the end that pales in comparison to the fear and loss of respect you'll see in the faces of your children because that image never leaves you.
good idea with the guns.
LOL A day or two after D-Day, while I was still in shock over it all, a friend came over and took my guns. I am glad he did. Then when the divorce turned ugly, more stuff came out of the woodwork, another friend told me I could borrow his backhoe but he didnít want to know what for. I will not deny the thought crossed my mind but it was not the OM that had anything to worry about.
My wife's friend was hours away. Although "nothing happened" he threatened to kill me twice. Never really thought about going looking for him. But during many of my sleepless nights I began to walk long distances. If he had come to "kill me" it would have been go time. Kel-Tec in the pocket and/or K frame on the hip.
All of us have been there. ALL. I never would have believed that it would ever get better, but it has.
P.S. Have since bought a real gun. 45XD compact.
Dustnbones: what do you want? Have you talked lately with your W about your feelings?
Cannon: Your W sounds like a mixture of NPD and bi polar. A dangerous combination especially for your kids. Think of the children!!!
m60 took me 6 years to build, one part at a time
The barrett was my gift to myself after her first A used the money we were saving for an Alaska cruise and vacation to treat myself
My CCW gun is a Taurus Judge 3" cylinder 5 shot, first 3 chambers 410 buckshot, last 2 are .45 colt. Excellent PDW gun
[This message edited by Medic17 at 10:31 AM, July 22nd (Sunday)]
She says she'll take her mess regularly (yes, she's bi-polar), delete Facebook, stop drinking....I reminded her we had this same conversation almost verbatim last summer and last January. Then it's appeals for the kids, says that shell miss family time and events, still making excuses saying the OM blackmailed her.
I said again that I MAY have somehow CONSIDERED things if she felt she was, but she's said too many things, done too much damage, I reminded her she pointed at me and yelled to the kids "your Dad is A PIECE OF SHIT and a CHEATER" and "I hope he DIES and GOES TO HELL" not to mention the "small" cracks and slandering me and one of my friends on Facebook.
Or course, she says she remembers none of that, that she was out of her mind on alcohol and klonopin. Out of her mind is about right...
Status: Divorced and relieved
Sounds like a cool collection of firearms! My .357 was my grandfathers, and I got the Mauser from my dad. It had never been fired - it was still in the box. He bought it as a collectible. It was a blast to take my son out and fire that sucker. Turns out bullet proof glass was only bullet resistant. My go to is the 9mm though. Just fits nice in my hand. Technically, the shotgun is my wife's - I can't hit shit with it anyways. Turns out it sucks to be left eye dominant when you are right handed My wife can shoot doubles in skeet. At least I can beat her with a rifle.
Have you fired the M60? It's been decades since I shouldered one of those.
We used to have a small ranch down in Texas where I set up a firing range, but we moved back up to VA a few years back and don't shoot as much (unless you count plinking tree rats with a Crosman). Do you have room to practice down there?
[This message edited by Tred at 11:58 AM, July 22nd (Sunday)]
Do you carry the Taurus? I always liked them, but would seem like a better truck gun.
Tred, my son has a Mauser and a Mosin Nagant. He can shoot the crap out of both of them. The only 9 I have is a Kel-Tec which fits in the pocket. It is not fun to shool LOL.
I am sorry about your situation. I think that is what sucked the most for me. My WW would screw up and then beg me for another chance. It puts the responsibility on us for what we are going to do. They blow it up, yet we are the ones that have to make the decisions that will affect us and our kids for a lifetime. If we chosse wrong, then we are likely to get burned again.
If I were in such a situation and was considering any attempt at R, immediate complete and total abstinence from alcohol and all other mood-altering drugs of abuse (prescription or otherwise) on her part would be my requirement #1.
Good luck, my friend. Keep posting, and take care of yourself and the kids.
She agreed to do it.. she seldom follows thru and when she does it's with no conviction.
I could've written that myself 2 months ago. I still feel it, but I am letting it go. See, YOU don't need to own the consequences of her (in)action. Fuck, why bother about her at all? YOU're too invested in a R she doesn't give a shit about. A few lessons that are repeated here time and again; her actions are showing you who she is, believe her. Let go of your codependency and be in your life for yourself, your kids will be better off for it. The 180, detaching and working on R is NOT for her, it's for your sake and you won't heal by anything she does, you'll heal by what you DO for yourself.
I've been carrying 2+ years of shit in my head, and you know what, in the end, it just doesn't matter. She won't care any more nor give you 2 years of your life back, you can't do anything about that shit either. You're blundering and guess what? We all did, and blunder away, don't be too hard on yourself that you didn't get anywhere yet. Most of us probably didn't, even the ones with wonderfully remorseful Ws couldn't have made it far.
Forget normal, there's a new normal now, there's no way to undo the clusterfuck that's been unloaded on you. (hence my nick:noescape).
Indifference is good;as long as you focus inwards, at your needs, at what makes you feel better and more authentic, define your boundaries, live by them, don't accept crap discussions, cut them off, offer her a cookie, let he own her shit, why bother? And your concern doesn't help her any way. Her owning her consequences and feeling them is far more effective than you trying on her behalf.
I was the I fix it guy too. But the clincher is that I need to fix it for myself, not for her lying, NPD, selfish ass.
You don't need to love her. You love her image, the one you constructed through years of a reality you thought you were both in. Let it die. Let the old M die and that W you thought you had die (figuratively not literally). Do you love her for the way she is? Do you feel compelled to love her because of the kids? Let her new reality permeate you and you may come to a point where you aren't so torn by your emotions.
WALs recent ramblings are a good start; if that's what she wants you to see, let her be the rag (no disrespect meant directly at your W).
Fact is, you may have done everything right but the outcome can only be defined by the choices of others. And if she is busy CHOOSING remorseless, lies and unloving, then why are you beating yourself over it?
You can keep trying what you already have been and expect a different outcome, or blunder about a bit more and find a new version of trying.
At the end, what really helped me was writing it all out, making a list for healing the M (NOT me, she doesn't get to do anything about that), and leaving it to her. She can fuck about or get serious or do whatever the fuck she wants, all I have for her are consequences. And they are not meant as a punishment, they're there to define healthy boundaries for MYSELF (I let go of the outcome).heck, I'm a fucking amateur at this and am still learning, but I guess this might help since we're roughly at the same juncture.
Sorry for the crap grammar and punctuation, this tablet doesn't allow for easy typing. Bleh.
That's some fucked up shit, count me as one who is rooting for you.
I've never owned a gun (and may be a good thing too), so more admiration for you guys to keep it under check on DDay and beyond, keep it together medic.
I would have replied to your comments a little sooner ..but I was thinkin....
So I finally posted on here after reading for the past 4 months or so. I did it because one night over drinks with my co-workers ( new co-workers who din't know about my situation) I kept blurting out crap. It seemed like ever y part of our conversations trigged the nasty side of my brain. After a few well crafted digs against my wife and marriage, a female co-worker asked me why I moved my wife 3 hundred miles away from home with me if hated her so much. I told her the quick version. wife cheated with best friend at work...couldn't keep working with him or I would do something stupid...couldn't leave my little girl... I moved wife tagged along I didn't want to risk having my girl with me. She said your just broken.
The more I thought about that the more it got under my skin. I'm not broken but if was how would i know. I need to take stock of where I am and what I'm doing in my life. Since I keep going around in circles in my own head I thought some people with similar situations could help with a kind of peer review.. Only now that I look back at what I posted it's more of just me complaining and not much to get reviewed on.
The marble hunt is suspended and for the most part probable would not have been started except for the fact that 4 of the people I contacted knew me personally. These where not strangers. at least 3 of them were at my wedding.
The I don't know issue is a big one.
So here is what I really want to get some input on. I want to see if people agree that I've tried all I can, or have I missed something ....
I discovered the affairs 2.5 years ago and confronted. She did not confirm at first. I started showing proof, she started admitting to the stuff I showed proof about but no details unless I asked a direct question. but mostly I don't know. this went on for a month or so. I kept digging she kept only admitting to the stuff I found.
I kept telling her it did not add up. there is no possible way I discovered every encounter with 9 men over the previous 3 years. ( I only had near complete records for 1.5 yrs or so) there where gaps as long as 2 months where I had no data but in the data I had there wasn't but 10 or 15 days that there wasn't some evidence of contact.
that's when the I don't knows really started. She would not make a time line for months. when she did it was 2 written pages ( for 9 men and nearly 2 years of stuff...not likely) it was also out of sync with what I had collected. All thru this time she professed love and said she was sorry a couple of times but seemed completely dissconected to her words.
I finally sat her down and over 8 or 10 hours I had her read the data I collected with me. she was basically silent for most of it I asked questions about how she was feeling at those times, what lead her to do things, who she was thinking about, did she think of me and the kids.....
sometimes she was defencive sometimes she got angry sometimes she said I don't know but if that's what it says I did then I must have done it.
I got to a the place where she was asking friends to drop off drugs to her ( pain and anti-depresents i think) it was right there in her texts and she denied it ever happend.
there were a few othere things that I had proof of that she denied outright. Thats when she gave up.
So over the next 3 months or so we went to 2 different MC ( 1st one was a hack.. after 3 meetings I said now way will I see him again) but I was still angry as hell and every day asked more and more probing questions. She promised to write answers, promised to read books ( i did see her with them open) very little was accomplished.
at around the 4 month mark I stopped being so angry ( after a few sessions with 2nd MC I think she was in IC then too.)
The MC talked me into trying to work things out and leave alot of the details alone and work forward. I did with conditions. Since the first day I told her nothing would get resolved if I didn't have the truth and could see changes in her that made me think she was being truthfull. I made that a condition to start recovery. Plus the fact that she must start talking to me .. not waiting unitll I asked. Also had the a lot of the basics ( NC,Transparency,tracking locaiton.....)
So for around 5 or 6 months we saw this MC and things seemed to get less chaotic but even then if I asked a question I got lots of I don't knows and sometimes little tidbits of new stuff. even some things that conflicted with what I knew.
We really didn't get any better but things seemed better.
One day the MC said he couldn't do much more because I made it a condition of progress to get the full truth and it just wasn't going to happen.
Now I really did try to understand her better through this period. I held her, told her I loved her had a much more positive attitude when speaking... I did all the things she said where problems for her. I kept my crude comments silent. She was loving ( but she always was) She said it was all her and not me she acted regretful sometimes,
under it all though I still didn't beleive her and I told her so. she hadn't done anything on her own. the only things she seemed to do sometimes where what the MC or I asked her to do. She kept telling me she was working on herself and changing things .. but nothing was evident
around 1.5 years out from dday time I kinda just gave up. I was getting no where. I figured I would just live day to day. I told her that I was just going to do nothing about her and just live for my girl till she made some kind of effort that I could see
she said she would .. but day after day nothing
soon I told her I could live without her and that she should just leave by that time i really could I had reach a place where I didn't care much if she was there or not. I started sleeping on the couch and in my recliner. I did a fairly good 180.
after a few months she broke down and convinced me she would do something this time and prove to me that we should be together. she made some small progress at talking to me but it always came to a point where she would let something slide and not tell me untill I found out the hard way.. ( bounced checks, bills not paid, appointments, stupid stuff) but it was her pattern from before creepin in ( previous years she had run up 20k in debt almost let our house get foreclosed, electricity turned off...) she just avoids any potential issue till it becomes a major problem. this cycle happened a few times
for about the last 5 months up untll a month or so ago I was back to sleeping in my recliner and 180 except I have been sporadically extremely angry.
1 month or so ago I blew up. Let her have it till she was a complete wreck on the floor crying I yelled and called her lots of crappy things. I told her to get out of the house. I was done ........ I finally saw what I thought was complete remorse. she seemed to get it that I needed her to show me what she was doing to change. She seemed to understand at a differn't level that I needed her to take action she agreed to sit and talk to me every night at 9:00pm originally she said she wanted to do it every Wednesday at 9:00 I said no every night. ( this was on a tuesday. I slept in our bed. the next night was wed she came and talked to me nothing major but she did it. I thought damn things are going to get better...I really think I was happy then.
thursday came .. no wife ( daughter stayed up to watch a movie so I thought maybe that was why)
Friday .. no wife. I thougt maybe we were not clear enough and she thought every wednesday. I was angry I din't want to push her backwards so I did nothing
I waited till the next wednesday .. no wife.
I had had it. I walked upstairs do you know you promised to come talk to me every night she said yes I asked why .. she said "I don't Know"..
I told her that I was taking back my life for me. She was to get out of my fucking bed and sleep on the couch. I didn't want to sleep with her. but I was tired of being out of the way my own house. She needed to tell me right then if she wanted to move downstairs, move into the spare bedroom or get out. ( 3 for townhouse,bottom floor has family room and bathroom that s where I would go to get away from her but I was sacrificing time with my girl to do it.)
She asked what I wanted her to do I said I would prefer she move out but that I wasn't going to force her. I just wanted to know what her plan was. I gave her choices and made here choose. It seems like I always have to do this even on stupid things like dinner ( I do all the cooking)
She said then that she would sleep on the floor in another room. I told her I was not making her do that. If she wanted to move downstairs or into the spare bedroom ( currently a toy room) that I would go buy a bed. she said no she would sleep on air mattress..I just gave up.
next morning after I slept alone in my bed.. I found her asleep on the floor. I asked why she said mattress was dirty. I told her to decide what she was going to do move to another room in the house or move out .. she said I don't know. I said you are not sleeping on the floor because it is unnecessary and I don't want to be hearing from people that I made you sleep on the floor....she just shut up then. I walked away and she has been sleeping on the floor for 2 weeks. first she told me she needed a week to decide what to do .. then she told me she needed a month. I'm just ignoring her unless my daughter is around.
so in a nutshell I believe that I have stated clearly what I need from her for me to start a real R. I spent nearly 8 months changing my behaviors to help her change hers. I see no change in actions or basic behaviors that put her in a place where she thinks she has to talk dirty, give blowjobs, fuck other men just because they complement her or ask her to. ( she let slip one time that she felt she had to do it for them)
I want to be with her. I want to have a family together. I want to make this work.
I'm 99% certain she is just damaged in some way that I can't live with.
I don't know that she will never do it again. I don't know if she is truly sorry. I don't know that she won't lie to me again ( in fact I think she has recently) I don't know what matters to her. I don't know the existing extent of her cheating.
I don't know what more I can do.
Damn HT I don't know if this explains where I'm at or what all has been tried or not. I get most all of what you are saying. I think I have tried all angles to get her to see things the way they are.
There just isn't any logic to any of this, however I do believe it is my duty to try everything I possibly can even if it doesn't make sense. I feel obligated because I married her, I said those fucking words to her at our wedding, I had a child with her and I loved her with out any doubts for 15 years.
you're getting sucked into crazymaking and it goes nowhere. She's ALWAYS going to be the victim.
We had a rough weekend (not compared to some of you other fellas) and the subtle, nuanced, manipulation tactics seem to be creeping back in. The victimization. Having to go to hell and back just to get an admission of some fucking speck of a slight maybe of a fraction of wrong doing and accountability. And at the end what do I get? "I'm sorry!". Like it's some sort of fucking prize. Almost like "there, I said it, are you happy now?". WTF? That's not being sorry, that's being cornered and saying I'm sorry so you won't get called out on your bullshit behavior anymore.
It's a pattern for us that started right after we met and continues to this day. Even the A followed the same pattern. There was shame, guilt, remorse after being caught, but retrospectively, I can't tell if it was all done in a "okay, I'll bite the bullet on this one, the OM was pathetic anyway, but now he knows I'll fuck other people and is scared enough to change into what I need". Someone (I think WAL) said something along the lines of "you get to change everything about you that she didn't like before the A, understand how to be her perfect partner, and she'll stop fucking other people. Sound good?".
Any kind of criticism I throw her way, constructive usually, is met with the same response: Everything stops, she feels like she's being attacked, and I can almost see the wheels turning in her head, where despite the circumstances and realities of the current construct (i.e. healthy discourse, getting to the bottom of any issue, A related or not) the victim mentality and "how dare you say such things to me" attitude immediately seeps in. It's like there's some sort of wall there that being built back up post-A or has never really come down despite all of the shit we've been dealing with for 16 months.
I'm at a loss here fellas. It feels like everything's going back to where it was for so long, and I can't stop it. She's still in IC and they appear to be talking about the critical aspects of dealing with this shit, but I don't know anymore. It feels like getting her to not avoid conflict only peels back another layer of a rotten onion. Now instead of just not saying anything when she's pissed, she'll say things like "I'm supposed to be doing the talking here" after I've made a valid point or called her on something. When I mentioned something she said to OM that was particularly hurtful, she fired back "I know what I said!", like I didn't have a right to repeat it or bring it up.
I mean WHAT THE FUCK? It's like as long as I don't ask specific questions as to how she's improving and just listen to her version of it, then everything's okay. If I ask questions related to specific events or behavior? Criticism. Harsh, harsh criticism in her eyes. I'm judging her negatively.
I don't even know how to handle it anymore, other than not bring anything meaningful up (her ideal scenario).
Has anyone dealt with this behavior successfully before? I know many of us have seen it and experienced it. Please advise brothers. I don't have much more tolerance.
[This message edited by Medic17 at 11:27 AM, July 23rd (Monday)]
" Someone (I think WAL) said something along the lines of "you get to change everything about you that she didn't like before the A, understand how to be her perfect partner, and she'll stop fucking other people. Sound good?"
It's like- hey, I jumped on any cocks I could get to come my way (..except yours..) and as "punishment", I'll just emptily say I'm sorry 100+ times while YOU work on being Better Man V2.0.. and if YOU'RE lucky, I wont fuck around on you any more, mmkay?
Un-Fucking-believable mindset... and so true.
Sad thing is, when they take a good, long look at what a fucking cheating whore c*** they are, their whole house of cards will come crumbling down with all the guilt, shame and understanding of who/what they have become. I don't blame them for avoiding that epiphany. I sure as shit wouldn't want to wake up being that person... ever.