I wasn't thinking about the price or the payoff. I wasn't thinking about the effects of the A on my integrity, my M, etc. The first thing that hit me and brought me back to reality was the deep shame of what I had done. It makes me sick, even more so when I think about the bigger picture and the effect on it.
need to understand from fWS looking back what they payoff was staying in the A after realizing you have lost everything you valued, Marriage loyalty, family, home, respect, integrity, the whole gamut of negatives but with all this the A continued. What was the payoff that offset all you knew and believed about yourself?
It's the same question that we ask when an alcoholic continues drink, in spite of the fact he knows he's loosing everything. Or when a drug addict continues to chase after that elusive high that takes his mind off of all the woes and loses he’s created for himself, only to spiral down even further. Or the diabetic that cannot resist the craving flavor of a candy bar or the refreshing taste of a super size soft drink, only to lament later as they crash again for the umpteenth time.
The payoff; Is the high, the fantasy, the adrenalin rush, the ESCAPES FROM REALITY!
Having an affair provides the same temporal escapes from reality as drugs or alcohol or even food. Which is why we cannot reason with an active adulterer any more than we can reason with a drunk, or an active drug addict or a diabetic refusing to maintain their diet.
IMO, reality is often what these groups of people are trying to escape. The bills, the baby's, the job, the responsibility, the boredom, the depression, etc. etc. etc...... . So if escaping reality is the allure, what makes that first step down that path possible for an adulterer? IMO, it's the lack of “personal boundaries” in their life. Once the first boundary falls, the rest of them fall, one right after another, just like domino's.
As a friend of mine pointed out to me, after my affair ended; “It’s getting hit by the first train car that kills someone, they’re already dead by the time the caboose runs em over”. (My lack of boundaries was the Engine of the train that hit my marriage, the OW was no more than the caboose.)
Another payoff for these groups of people; It's easier to walk away than it is to man up and fix everything they've broken.
[This message edited by Card at 1:17 PM, July 16th (Monday)]
D-Days April - Oct. 2007 Recovery started Nov. 2007
"Found Myself", I was right there in my shoes all along!
Search for self called off!
Why Repentance Is Necessary? Because Undeserved Mercy Empowers Entitlement/Sin
my WW said this to me as we are trying to R, "I am doing my best right now, I can't help it if I'm not showing you the attention you would rather have and want"
i'm not quite sure how to interpret that
Can you elaborate on that or put that statement into context?
What does her best look like to you? Is she in IC? Is she making effort that you can see?
The way she might be looking at it is under normal circumstances she is doing all that a good wife does. But these aren't normal circumstances are they? Being a good wife is the bare minimum she could be doing. So what is it you are needing or wanting from her? Do you want more affection/attention or do you need her to be more vulnerable to you? Do you need her to be the one to start a conversation and open up to you to express her feelings about the A?
I will tell you that I have spent much of my life guarded. It is very difficult to put myself out there when I know anger and rejection could be the result. My BH has had to be very specific with me at times regarding his wants and needs. Which sucks really, because if he is telling me specifically what he needs and I give it to him, it has much less meaning. But I've been clueless.
There has been a time that I thought relationships were what I was getting from them. We have come to terms that I needed to need less. When she says she is "doing the best she can" maybe she really is because she doesn't have the experience or knowledge of how to do more.
Do you feel she gets it? I know I am asking a lot of questions but her statement could mean so many things.
My question is for WS who have guilt and shame for their infidelity, but do not discuss, answer questions from your BS, etc.
My husband answered questions for a short time, but after a while stopped. I know that part of the reason is because he loves to build a wall and is very conflict avoidant.
But, I have to admit that I was also very volitile and hysterical, and attacking toward him at first. I can't even remember what I might have said to him.
Now, after 5+ years, lots of ups and downs, he has started reading with me again, and hasn't left the room during a low key conversation (not directly about the infidelity).
My question is this...What are suggestions for how to get what I need without scarring him away?
What I need is the truth about what happened, and to be able to alude to the infidelity when we have issues that arise from it. (His facebook account, residual lack of total trust, etc.)
When talking to him, I measure every word, watch my tone, etc. But sometimes, no matter what I do, he won't talk.
I will not be vanquished. Rose Kennedy
I have a lot of shame about my infidelity to say the least and haven't yet answered any questions from BS because I haven't told him yet.. :( I will be confessing, that's a whole other thread.
Anyways, did you say that it's been 5+ years since his A?
I must say that I wouldn't wish to discuss my A's 5+ years down the road although I don't think I'll have a choice. My H might be the type to throw it in my face during every future argument...
Maybe your H thinks he's done enough talking? He probably thinks he's told you enough and tired of it hanging over his head? Sorry just speculating.. Some men are not very good at communicating during the best of times so he might have a hard time discussing this over and over again. (or so it seems like it has been especially if you were freaking out on him a lot at the beginning which is understandable)
How to get him to open up again...? Not sure how to answer that because that kinda falls into a general question of how do you get men to talk? did you guys go to MC? If you haven't gone for awhile, maybe its time to go again?
[This message edited by messedupchick at 6:06 PM, July 24th (Tuesday)]
The WW formerly known as messedupchick
As far as myself I know I will not be asking how many or why. It does not matter we are done.
I caught and confronted my wife the same day but after the fact(audio monitoring the home) and she's denied many things in this process I found later to be true.
So from her perspective she's dealing with 1) the major devastation her actions are causing our marriage 2) a severe element of mistrust and betrayal that will need to be addressed and 3)the loss of physical and non-physical contact with her OM.
WS has been honest enough to tell me she misses his companionship and it's apparent she is also going through a grieving process of sorts.
This might sound bizarre but what kind of support does she need from me to assist her with what she's going though? (hoping full well that working through her emotions as well as mine, will allow us to both be better off in the future).
Here's a statement that I made that we both agree with and aspire to acheive:
Things will never be the same between us (and I hope we both see that as a good thing). I hope we can elevate what’s left to ‘great’ and what’s been missing to ‘here’ and also great.
[This message edited by Bubbleup at 10:41 AM, July 25th (Wednesday)]
he obviously has something to hide if he would walk away from this marriage instead of showing me the phone logs.
i have done a complete 180...and will not have any communications with him unless it is specifically regarding our baby.
regardless of what is on the logs...i feel like he should step up and face me...not run away like a coward.
my question is....am i taking the right approach by drawing the line in the sand and not backing down unless all of those conditions are met?
Wondering how long it takes for a WS to deal with the loss of their extramarital relationship?
I don't think there is a prescribed time for this to occur... I recently posted about this; recommend you check it out: http://www.survivinginfidelity.com/forums.asp?tid=463413&HL=35512
What I took away from this thread, is that the WS absolutely needs to work on seeing the reality of the A, realizing the consequences, and not "romanticize" the relationship at all. As HT said in that thread... shine a 1000 watts of light on what they did, and help the WS see what they did was vial, wrong, deceitful, etc.
I was just having a conversation with my fWW about how she and MOM talked, after I had caught them. He told her that they would "always find a way to have stolen moments" or some such shit. I started thinking about that, and I've heard her say this phrase stolen moments in the past as well. So, I decided to shine some light on this, and sent my fWW this email:
"The term Stolen Moments sounds like such a romantic term, and I'm sure it was when he and you used the phrase.
Stolen implies you are taking something that doesn't belong to you. You are depriving someone else, of something they deserve, own or earned, and taking it to meet your own needs. These moments you stole were not only from me and OBS... but from our kids, yourself, and from us. The actions were so callous, shallow and selfish... and you deprived others of something we deserved and earned: your time, love, affection, trust and loyalty. You took those things from me, and to an extent from our children. You took away the opportunity (almost permanently) for us to be a couple, a team.
'Don't worry, we'll always find our stolen moments', or whatever he said after I caught you two... It's a false romantic gesture that is constructed of deceit and pain for others, all to meet his and your selfish needs at the time. How it made you feel, at the time (and perhaps even now in a diminished or faded sense) was at the expense of others, as you took away something from others. This was not an act or gesture of love or affection; it was quite the opposite."
Hope some of this helps...
my question is....am i taking the right approach by drawing the line in the sand and not backing down unless all of those conditions are met?
I personally feel it is absolutely the right approach. The real question is are you comfortable with it? If he were to look you in the eye and tell you that he will not give you what you want, are you comfortable with then saying that you can no longer proceed in R?
What you need to figure out is where your line can no longer budge. NC with his AP(s) and transparency are the bare minimums he should be giving you. Without even meeting you, I can tell you that are worth that much! But he needs to know you are serious and if your line is ever changing he will have a hard time realizing that.
Is he working on any of your other conditions? Has he gone to rehab?
I read the entire thread you pointed me to. Thank you and WOW, I'm new here and continue to be amazed at how similar the storyline goes.
So you dealt with TT for a little over 7 months? It's only been 3 for me and I'm going batshit crazy.
WS is in complete denial RE: acknowledging the shit she needs to own with her indiscretions. She is also dealing with 'feelings' as she and the OM had been close friends for years before they leveled up to fluid swapping. It's just occuring to me that this is a years long EA turned year long PA...
I knew he's always been sweet on my wife (she's everything his wife is not) but never thought that my WS would have taken the road she did.
Two night's ago I pulled up 'Jeffery's letter on the PC and had her read it. She picked it apart and tossed it saying that dirty secerts will not help me and will not be divulged.
Last night I printed out 'Understanding Your Betrayed Spouse' read it over to be sure I wanted to give it to her and left it on my night stand.
She glanced at the title this morning, "Oh you have something for me to read? This is the last thing I'll be reading from you."
I looked her in the eye and said no, if you can't read and comprehend those pages on the nightstand and apologize for your statement, the next thing you'll be reading is a restraining order and separation papers. Then you'll probably read something along the lines of 'How Could You?' from the OBS (I haven't told her yet - working/ waking up to that by the passing minute).
Advise WS that it's a real possibility she'll need to pack a bag tonight. I'm completely fed up with her shit and denial over this. If I'm to provide a gift of forgiveness (and believe me I really do want to forgive her) it has to be on my terms not hers.
Her body language changed from aloof to negotiable as soon as I stopped talking.
I threw down the gauntlet and am ready to back it up b/c I know that I'll stand taller alone than together on her terms and I think I'll stand the tallest with her on my terms. There's no in between anymore.
[This message edited by Bubbleup at 10:03 AM, July 26th (Thursday)]
Hopefully with your H's remorse from the drunken ONS will help with the rebuilding your marriage to better than it ever was before.
Unfortunately I've fallen into a trap that I created myself with the "out of sight, out of mind" or one that I came up with.. "absence makes the eyes wander". Clearly both your WH and myself need to work on our boundary problems and work on ourselves so we don't get into situations like that. He might be using the "foreign" country as an extra excuse but really it was him betraying you while he was away. Let's say, you're away and he's at home. He might have done the same thing but drunk at a local bar. Who's to say that he needed a foreign country. I didn't.
I took my perfectly good marriage and have seriously tarnished it with my cheating. Now I can only hope that confessing to my H and hard work, we can rebuild ours too.
[This message edited by messedupchick at 1:10 AM, July 27th (Friday)]
[This message edited by nothings special at 3:24 PM, August 9th (Thursday)]
That's a tough one and would depend greatly on the context in which those statements were made.
Were those statements made in response to direct questions you asked him? If so, he may be just trying to be very honest with you and stumbling a bit to be sensitive about it. Let's face it, us women are extremely sensitive when it comes to body image. I've known women that are in fantastic shape but still feel insecure about certain aspects of their body. If you are anything but a twenty something year old, gravity is beginning to do its "magic"! So the statement that you don't have a body of a twenty something year old, is a very honest statement. It is reality. I just turned 40 last month. I have had a lifetime struggle with my weight going up and down. As I began the journey of working on myself, I have begin to eat well and exercise regularly. I have a confidence in myself that I have never had before. I'm much more on touch with myself a whole these days and although I have flaws, I accept them these days because they make me who I am.
My husband and I have had several discussions regarding body image since DDay. I had always felt that he was settling for my body type but secretly wanted an Anjolina Jolie kind of sexy. Having these honest discussions has really opened my eyes that what he considers sexy or enjoyable was not always in line with what I thought he wanted or needed for that matter. But in order to get there we had to push through some of the hurt and insecurities.
That said, if he said those things during a heated argument, it could easily be taken as an equivalent of the "small penis" comment that some WW's use with their BH's. It could be seen as going for the jugular. Context is very important.
Is he remorseful and trying to be very open and honest with you? Or is he still blame shifting and trying to put back on you? Is he elaborating and telling you what he finds attractive about you? Or is he leaving statements like that hanging?
Before you can make any kind of decision as to how to take it, he needs to continue to work on his "why's" and really see how these statements tie into them.
Either way, I know it's hurtful. I commend you for putting yourself out there and trying to move forward.
Good luck to you.
i specifically asked about the second topic. but he volunteered the other information on two occasions during late night discussions and cant remember saying what he had.
im right there at your age - size 2. kickbox, race bikes, yoga, surf, drive motorcycles, race cars, etc... i am fit! i will take it as you have described.... probably just a cheap shot.... he has been picture prefect. uber thoughtful, helpful, i could not ask for more... maybe i just should not ask such pointed and direct questions!
i truly appreciate your time. i feel a little bit better :/