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I Can Relate     Print Topic    
User Topic: BS Questions for WS's - Part 6
silverhopes
♀ Member
Member # 32753
Default  Posted: 10:19 PM, May 4th (Friday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Hi there. I'm a mad-hatter. I'm sorry if I'm posting in the wrong place. There was a question that I really wanted to answer.

get-a-brain wrote:

I have read that WS never really end up hating AP

It breaks my heart to hear the uncertainty and pain in your question. Putting on my WS hat: I hate my AP's guts. I'll be the first person to talk badly about him, though I find that I don't like giving him even an inch of headspace. I don't want to waste one minute of my H's or my time giving him energy when I could be spending that energy loving my H and being thankful for him. But so you know - I do hate OM. In my case, he happened to be an ex. So I wondered for a while whether I hate him for hurting my H (and for that, I hate myself more), whether I hate him for things he did during our relationship (he was abusive) which was before I met H... I have come to the realization that I hate him simply because he is a horrible person. To the core.

I'm pretty sure I hated OM during the betrayal; or at least, I didn't feel "love" toward him. I was planning to hurt him physically. During the prior relationship (again, before I met H), at one point I thought I loved him - but I know now that it wasn't love. Love could never be that unhealthy. Please remember that. There is no 'us' between me and OM, there never was any 'us'; the only 'us' ever is or was is me and my H. I deeply regret hurting H by bringing crazy into his life, by betraying him, by throwing away what was so special to us. During the betrayal, I did love H, I did not hate H. I hated myself. I was trying to hurt myself. H had broken up with me; I wanted to punish myself for losing him. I don't have any fond memories of OM. And I'm finally beginning to feel indifferent, though I'm still letting go of a lot of hate. I think what remains is the shame, guilt, and self-hatred that I still feel for myself, and I can feel and address that without thinking of OM or anyone for that matter. It's all on my shoulders.

I hope my answer helps.


Find peace. Or sleep on it.

Posts: 3762 | Registered: Jul 2011 | From: California
BaxtersBFF
♂ Member
Member # 26859
Default  Posted: 11:49 AM, May 5th (Saturday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

lolly45,

This is pretty standard for the WS. "It was unique" - "There is only one" - "nothing wrong with the M, it's me" - and the list goes on.

Some of these statements may have some truth, but I think they are all indicative of a WS who hasn't started doing the real work of fixing themselves.

Unique - It may very well be unique to that individual WS. They may never have experienced that feeling. Many times, they have forgotten that they had those same feelings for their BS. At the time of the A though, it is common for the WS to believe that nobody could possibly understand what they are feeling.

Only one - I remember this one. I used it. Then I started looking at my history and becoming aware of current situations. It's about boundaries now. At the time of my EA, and for a long time post d-day, I thought that the EA was a perfect storm and that if one thing had been different, I wouldn't have ever gone down that road. Now, I think it was just an eventuality for me. Yes, there could have been another AP.

Perfect M - Minimizing. You guys should examine this. It is a knee-jerk reaction/explanation. She should allow herself to talk openly about what she felt and perceived in the M. There very likely could have been something, but she doesn't want to bring it up because it would be blaming you for the A.

My guess is that she is willing to accept these easy answers, and is using them to try to make things better, but at the same time, this is all the low hanging fruit. She hasn't had to do any hard work yet.

She can make it past this stage. Ironically, it may take a lot of work on your part too. Believe it or not, your ws may not trust you to be there for her if she starts doing the hard work. She may not have the confidence in herself to come out the other side of it. It is her responsibility to make that choice and commit to doing the work though. So don't let yourself get to entangled in that web.


WH - 44
BW - gerrygirl

Posts: 6048 | Registered: Dec 2009 | From: Boise
BaxtersBFF
♂ Member
Member # 26859
Default  Posted: 12:07 PM, May 5th (Saturday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

imagrownup,

I lied to my BW more. But, since she didn't really know about the EA until after the decline started, I didn't have to lie much at all during the really active part of the EA. It was during the decline/demise that I pulled all the classic wayward speak as far as minimizing, rewriting marital history, probably some gas-lighting and certainly cake-eating.

The lies I told MOW were along the lines of no connection to BW. I didn't badmouth my BW to MOW.

The reasons? Well, for my own situation, it was a matter of trying to make things fit. I was very confused that this situation I walked into, and contributed to, was not working out as planned. I was even more confused at how I had allowed myself to get there in the first place. So obviously, it must of been someone else's fault. That's what the lies were all about.


WH - 44
BW - gerrygirl

Posts: 6048 | Registered: Dec 2009 | From: Boise
BaxtersBFF
♂ Member
Member # 26859
Default  Posted: 12:20 PM, May 5th (Saturday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

copingdaily,

It sounds like he is a stubborn man when it comes to taking responsibility for his own actions. The stuff he did and said on d-day and just after leaving aren't surprising.

What is he doing now to show you that he is serious about R? He is saying things that are true now, but it sounds like he isn't doing any of the hard work to figure out why he did what he did and also how to provide what you need from him. Pretty much a conflict avoider.

It's okay, he doesn't get it either yet...doesn't mean he can't get there though.


WH - 44
BW - gerrygirl

Posts: 6048 | Registered: Dec 2009 | From: Boise
BaxtersBFF
♂ Member
Member # 26859
Default  Posted: 12:39 PM, May 5th (Saturday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

nlovemyfamily,

I know you've had this question out there for a while. Not sure there is anything that could be said that would make a difference. If he isn't ready to hear it, then there is nothing to be said. Plus, we don't know your WH. So it would just be a shot in the dark.

But that doesn't stop me sometimes...

First, there is the statistical side of this. Really, how many WS/AP relationships end up lasting? I know of one that has lasted 30 years or so, but I also know the WH isn't really happy with what he did. I know if he could do it over, he would make different choices. But he can't. So, statistically speaking, it just doesn't work out. If you want a D, then D. Don't make it worse by blaming others for your A. Which leads to #2.

Second would be to let them know it's okay to be wrong. And long those lines, it's okay to take responsibility for your own actions. Unfortunately, that isn't the message we get from society anymore. So maybe it's time to look at himself and see if this is really who he wants to be. Which leads to #3.

And #3 is - Everywhere you go, you will find yourself right there. Meaning, he is the common denominator in all of his problems. He can keep running and keep blaming, but if he doesn't fix the stuff that is wrong in him, he will just continue to have these problems. Which brings up #4.

The almighty #4 - Be honest with yourself.

These are things that I have thought about and dealt with over the years. But I never would have considered these things if I wasn't willing to hear them in the first place. That would be the first step to figure out IMO.


WH - 44
BW - gerrygirl

Posts: 6048 | Registered: Dec 2009 | From: Boise
nlovemyfamily
♀ Member
Member # 15258
Default  Posted: 2:50 PM, May 5th (Saturday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

BaxtersBFF, Thanks for responding. I was just wondering what a fws who has really seen the light and been living the dream after ending an A would tell a WS. Your responses are great and appreciated. Maybe some other FWS could add how they might mentor a fellow ws? Thanks again!

Posts: 415 | Registered: Jul 2007 | From: nj
heartbroken0903
♀ Member
Member # 27879
Default  Posted: 3:50 PM, May 5th (Saturday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Lolly45

Here is my take on your post.

but now she is saying there is nothing wrong with our marriage it is all about the OP and she never looked for it, but Op was there and she could not help the draw, it is truly unique and she says she will never do it again because there is only one OP.!!? We are in MC and that's how the conversation started, I asked about one marital issue and she was like, we really have a great marriage, it wasn't the marriage, it was me and my draw to OP.

I was in a similar situation and I felt/said almost the same things. In my case, the AP was my ex, so he wasn't "just anyone." I wasn't looking to have an affair, there wasn't anything "so wrong" with my M to make me think I had to cheat to solve the problems...I just felt like I wanted to be with my ex again. Not just sexually, but relationship-wise...I felt happy to be with him, I felt like we got another chance, I felt like we could "make things right." Funny though, I never stopped to think that it's impossible to make things right with an ex-boyfriend when you are M to someone else! I was such a dumbass. I told myself all sorts of bullshit during my affair, but one thing I do think is true is that it couldn't have been "just anybody." I wasn't so desperate to cheat that any dick would do, so to speak. I told myself the soulmate schmoopies crap, our love was meant to be...the usual.

Do you think she will move on past this? Have you ever thought like this and if so, please tell me it passes...

It passed for me. At first it passed because I was caught and I was desperate not to lose my XH. Then when I got divorced anyway, and was "free" so to speak to be with the AP, I found that I didn't even want him. The feelings weren't real, they couldn't be, because they only existed within the little bubble we built to protect ourselves from my M and the outside world. Once that went away, I realized I could never be in a legitimate relationship with him after we'd had an affair.


Me: WS, 30s
XH: BS, 40s
No kids

Married 2.5 years
D-day 3/6/10
Divorced 5/14/10

Reconciling after divorce


Posts: 1917 | Registered: Mar 2010 | From: the cat's meow
threw it away
♀ Member
Member # 34727
Default  Posted: 4:27 PM, May 5th (Saturday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

To lolly45 --

I can't put myself directly in the place of your WS, but I can tell you from my experiences with my APs that it was not difficult to be "the one." I made myself into "the one," over and over again. Of course it was never the real me; I would act whatever part was necessary in order to get the response that I wanted. With each man, the part was different. But they all fell for it, and why shouldn't they have? I was all they ever wanted without any negatives.

It may be that your WW's affair partner was doing the same. And then it could be that this "uniqueness" could be achieved by someone else, if that someone else desired to mislead and seduce her, and could see the way to go about it. This might be something for your WS to consider.


me: ww/34
him: 33, has initiated divorce
married 8 years, together for ten
kids 7 and 4

dday 1 - 12/17/2011
dday 2 - 1/26/2012 (my past multiple affairs revealed)


Posts: 112 | Registered: Feb 2012
Want To Wake Up
♀ Member
Member # 31583
Default  Posted: 11:10 AM, May 6th (Sunday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I apologise if this has already been asked but this is part 6 of this thread... Wow! LOL Way too much to go back & read through.


Is it unreasonable to ask for an ongoing apology from my WH?

I'm not talking every day here, just a couple of times a week maybe.

WH says he won't give me this any more than he feels comfortable with (he says it's "not in him to do that") because it makes him feel "like a doormat" and he "won't be a doormat!"

He is of the belief that you apologise once for something and the apology is either accepted... or not, you shouldn't have to keep apologising for the same thing over and over again. He feels to be required to do so is "punishment".

In normal circumstances I do agree but I don't feel infidelity is a "normal circumstance". IMO while the pain is ongoing so should the apology be.

I feel this is not what true remorse feels like, he says he feels it but cannot say it... I feel he's putting his feeling ahead of mine. Needless to say, not so much in R as in limbo.

Am I asking too much here? I don't want to sound petty but this really is a big issue for me.

TIA


Me 50+
WH 50+ (SlowUptake)
DDay '09
"He didn't cheat because I wasn't enough, he cheated because HE wasn't enough"

"Unhappy marriages don't cause infidelity. Being unfaithful causes infidelity."


Posts: 455 | Registered: Mar 2011
lolly45
♀ Member
Member # 34739
Default  Posted: 12:45 PM, May 6th (Sunday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

BaxtersBFF- thanks for the insight into the words I am hearing. I guess there is nothing I can do to help WW move past the fog huh, just go about my life and include her in it. Went to MC yesterday and MC told me to pretty much get on with what I am doing and offer WW to do things with me, if she refuses and wallows in her funk, just do those things alone she said. Also she told me not to seek out affection from WW, that i should let her come to me.

It scares me to see her still 'stuck on OP' after 8 weeks of it being over and it only being a 6 week ordeal. Also, OP is 14 years younger in another city and tells WW she is waiting for her no matter what, that probably screws up WWs brain a lot too as either way she goes, she has someone. Thanks for clarifying that this is pretty standard. Is there anything else i should be doing or shall I just let time take it's course?

HeartBroken0903- thank you to you too, I appreciate your insight. Yeah I totally understand the ex boyfriend thing, it does change the game a lot. This OP for my WW is someone she did not know, actually the sick part is, she is our friend's daughter, 14 years younger and all kinds of 'do not go there' but it happened and I have accepted it. WW does say that because she walked away when it was still a 'high' she fears she will never get over it. I also do get that, but ...she has left and has moved in and we are working on things, it's just the whole 'fogginess' concept. I am not a stupid person, but just needed to hear from your sides that you do come out of those feelings as it does make me insecure. Not the OP, the way WW 'feels', I do not feel insecure towards OP, actually I kinda think less of my spouse for choosing someone so silly... but hey, it is what it is.


Separated, same-sex marriage of 4.5 years.

Posts: 76 | Registered: Feb 2012
BaxtersBFF
♂ Member
Member # 26859
Default  Posted: 3:24 PM, May 6th (Sunday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

lolly, I was stuck on the MOW for a very long time. The thing you can do, is to choose not to take any crap. You need to decide where your line in the sand is.

As much as it sucks, the getting over the AP part is one of the harder parts. You can choose to deal with it how you want. If you are willing to give her time, then that is your choice. As long as she is doing the honest hard work to get through that stage, then great. If, however, she gets bogged down and uses that spot to hang onto the AP and all the emotions, then that isn't so great.

So do that 180. Like someone already said in your other thread, the 180 is for you, not for your WS. Sometimes the WS will snap out of it, sometimes they won't.


WH - 44
BW - gerrygirl

Posts: 6048 | Registered: Dec 2009 | From: Boise
BaxtersBFF
♂ Member
Member # 26859
Default  Posted: 3:34 PM, May 6th (Sunday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Want To Wake Up,

Actually, I haven't seen that question on here before...

If you need your WH to apologize a few times a week for killing your M, that I think it's pretty reasonable to ask that of him.

The fact that he isn't willing to give this to you implies that he is more concerned about his pride than about your feelings. It also feels a bit controlling of him. He isn't the one in the drivers seat when it comes to what you need from him to help fix the M. He isn't getting it.

Rather than thinking of himself as a doormat, he should consider himself lucky that you are still there willing to R.


WH - 44
BW - gerrygirl

Posts: 6048 | Registered: Dec 2009 | From: Boise
Chili
♀ Member
Member # 35503
What?  Posted: 4:09 PM, May 6th (Sunday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I read through these and didn't see my specific question, so apologies in advance to any WS's who have addressed this already:

If you weren't "caught" (i.e. presented with hard evidence by your BS), but instead "confessed or admitted" when confronted with the question (are you seeing someone else, etc.), what made you decide then and there to answer truthfully instead of continue to hide the A as was planned?

Thanks much,
Chili
DD April 11, 2012
SO and business partner (12 years)
Status: No f-ing clue


Me: BSO
Him: Assclown
Too many years tied up with him.
April-May 2012 pretty much sucked.
"I'd love to give a dog a bone, but I'm not gonna stick around to help you" - Jack White

Posts: 242 | Registered: May 2012 | From: Reality
Bellechica
♀ Member
Member # 35159
Default  Posted: 4:10 PM, May 6th (Sunday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Lolly, I do think a WS can get over the fog. I'm not sure when we get over the AP.
While I was in the A, I believed his soulmate talk and his professions of love for me. It was a high like no other and it became addicting, but the relationship was such a roller coaster and I hate feeling so unstable and knowing how I was hurting my family.
Lately I've been feeling in control and like a post above, I feel only HATE for the OM. I hate how he took advantage of me and hurt my M. Yes, I know I chose to be with him, but he knew I had originally gone to him because I told him I wanted to work on my M.
I feel such hate for him. I actually don't want to have any feelings for him. I can't stand that he is still in my head, and yes, when I broke it off, he fed me that psycho babble that he will be there for me.
I guess I'm not out of the fog or I wouldn't still be thinking of him.

Posts: 88 | Registered: Mar 2012
Want To Wake Up
♀ Member
Member # 31583
Default  Posted: 4:28 PM, May 6th (Sunday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Thank you for your reply Baxter.

He says I'm not willing to compromise with my requirements for R (i.e. accept what he is willing to give and ask for no more) and I don't feel this is something that I should have to "compromise" on.

And yes, he is controlling, he's conflict avoidant & somewhat passive aggressive (although he'll tell anyone who will listen he is an easy going guy so he won't admit to being PA at all)


I also feel it's a 'pride' thing with him, he's said before he deserves to keep his pride but IMO a truly remorseful WS leaves their pride at the door for a time.

[This message edited by Want To Wake Up at 4:30 PM, May 6th (Sunday)]


Me 50+
WH 50+ (SlowUptake)
DDay '09
"He didn't cheat because I wasn't enough, he cheated because HE wasn't enough"

"Unhappy marriages don't cause infidelity. Being unfaithful causes infidelity."


Posts: 455 | Registered: Mar 2011
lolly45
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Member # 34739
Default  Posted: 10:38 PM, May 6th (Sunday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Thanks for the feed back again BaxtersBFF, i truly appreciate your time and insight. yeah, I love her and she is living here now, so I decided to give her time to get over it...how much I don't know and I am scared she will run again, but I will take care of me and hopefully we will become stronger.

Bellechica, thanks, i do too think a WS can get out of the fog, I hope so, I am open enough to understand she will thing of the OW for a while and that is a consequence of the situation, but I am willing to give it time otherwise the alternative is heartbreaking.

I did tell her today though that as much as she knows I love her and that's why I am still here, there is also the part of the fact that we had a great marriage and that is not something we should take for granted. I am doing lots to make things better and spending some time with her but also time away so she can see that I am a strong confident woman again. Even though I am dying inside and just wish she would reach out to me more and move forward. i get where you are coming from and thanks for your response.


Separated, same-sex marriage of 4.5 years.

Posts: 76 | Registered: Feb 2012
stilllovinghim
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Member # 29971
Default  Posted: 4:33 AM, May 7th (Monday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Want To~
I second Bax on his last reply to you and you are correct. It is his pride and he needs to humble himself if he's serious about making it work with you.

He wants to throw the scraps to you and you bow to him and say, "Oh thank you most kind & generous master!" *kisses ring and sinks down back under his feet...*


His requirements for you right now should be nothing more than, say, you going to MC with him and keeping communication open on your thoughts and feelings. Even with that though, you're not obligated to do jack-squat.


Lolly~

I am doing lots to make things better and spending some time with her but also time away so she can see that I am a strong confident woman again

^^^^This^^^^
Won't happen if she knows you're co-dependant, which I'm sure she is aware because later you said:


I am scared she will run again

It also sounds like you're doing all the hard work, what is she doing to show you how much she's remorseful and to ensure this won't ever happen again?


[This message edited by stilllovinghim at 4:35 AM, May 7th (Monday)]


“You have a choice. Live or die.Every breath is a choice. Every minute is a choice. Every time you don't throw yourself down the stairs, that's a choice. Every time you don't crash your car, you re-enlist.”
― Chuck Palahniuk, Survivor

Posts: 1933 | Registered: Oct 2010
Want To Wake Up
♀ Member
Member # 31583
Default  Posted: 4:48 AM, May 7th (Monday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Want To~
I second Bax on his last reply to you and you are correct. It is his pride and he needs to humble himself if he's serious about making it work with you.

He wants to throw the scraps to you and you bow to him and say, "Oh thank you most kind & generous master!" *kisses ring and sinks down back under his feet...*


His requirements for you right now should be nothing more than, say, you going to MC with him and keeping communication open on your thoughts and feelings. Even with that though, you're not obligated to do jack-squat.

Thank you Stilllovinghim, it's nice to get feedback from FWS's who don't think I am being unreasonable (given the circumstances)

I feel I have been incredibly patient with him (DDay was late in '09!) and yes, I do feel I am being offered 'scraps'. I feel he is being impatient with me, wanting to set the timeframe of my healing without providing the safe and secure environment I need to heal IYKWIM



Me 50+
WH 50+ (SlowUptake)
DDay '09
"He didn't cheat because I wasn't enough, he cheated because HE wasn't enough"

"Unhappy marriages don't cause infidelity. Being unfaithful causes infidelity."


Posts: 455 | Registered: Mar 2011
stilllovinghim
♀ Member
Member # 29971
Default  Posted: 5:59 AM, May 7th (Monday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Want To-

I had to read your response twice- 2009??!!

Hunny, your basically trying to heal from the death of a loved one- no one should EVER dare to put a time frame on that!

My grandmother passed away in 2002 and I still think about her everyday and dream about her. I still have my sobbing moments. H has NEVER NOT ONCE EVER told me to get over it, it's the closest thing I can think of to compare his pain of my A to, you don't want to think of it and you want to heal, but you can't help the triggers and you can't help the sadness. No one wants to hurt forever. No one like pain, but we have cycles at times of our ups and downs, that's why a lot of times BS's on here refer to that as the roller coaster.

It sounds like your H has A LOT of work to do. He better get in and hold on tight or get the hell off 'cause this ride ain't over!

((((Want To Wake Up))))


“You have a choice. Live or die.Every breath is a choice. Every minute is a choice. Every time you don't throw yourself down the stairs, that's a choice. Every time you don't crash your car, you re-enlist.”
― Chuck Palahniuk, Survivor

Posts: 1933 | Registered: Oct 2010
silverhopes
♀ Member
Member # 32753
Default  Posted: 1:27 PM, May 7th (Monday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Chili asked:

If you weren't "caught" (i.e. presented with hard evidence by your BS), but instead "confessed or admitted" when confronted with the question (are you seeing someone else, etc.), what made you decide then and there to answer truthfully instead of continue to hide the A as was planned?

In my case, H (at the time boyfriend) didn't confront me at all. He had no idea. I told him on my own. I told him about a week after I had ended the betrayal (the betrayal lasted four days - it was not physical).

The reason why I told him then (instead of earlier) was because we were in process of breaking up and making up, so for a while I deluded myself into thinking it wasn't a betrayal because we hadn't been together. He had been in process of breaking up with me for about ten days beforehand, and on Day 3 of the betrayal was when he definitively ended it. But I came to reality that it was still a betrayal - it started while we were still together, and regardless of our "official" status, I was betraying our love for each other. He had been having schizophrenic episodes those 2 weeks, so I waited until he was on stable meds before I told him. It would have been extremely cruel to tell him while he was in the middle of an episode so severe that he was put in an overnight clinic on watch. It might have pushed him over the edge. So I waited until he wasn't in danger. Another reason why I waited to tell him is because I was chickenshit. I was terrified to tell him, but I made myself. I made the words leave my mouth. That's why I told him instead of hiding it from him or lying. Because of our situation (mad-hatters) and his own infidelities, I felt it would be deeply hypocritical of me to demand him tell me the truth (about his infidelities) while withholding it from him (about my own). So I told him because that was the way I wanted our relationship to be: truthful. And the only way to make it truthful is by telling the truth yourself. Guilt also pushed me; it was eating me up that I hurt him that way, especially while he was so vulnerable, and he didn't know it, but he deserved to know. I still feel incredibly sick that I did that to him. He's got every reason to hate me for it.


Find peace. Or sleep on it.

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