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I Can Relate     Print Topic    
User Topic: BS Questions for WS's - Part 6
uncertainone
♀ Member
Member # 28108
Default  Posted: 9:28 AM, December 1st (Thursday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

StrngrThnIThght,

Why can't he do this

Because he may not feel it.

I notice you post in Reconciliation. I may go against the grain here. You found out 2 months ago. I wouldn't be rushing into reconciliation. There is a detachment that is required to have an affair. A switch of focus and energy that, to me is the true betrayal. The rest is just brutal carry on baggage that goes with it.

You need to start to heal from his betrayal. Time to shore up your boundaries and slow your bleeding. You need to be your focus right now and your children.

Anything you get from him right now may not only not help you but hurt more as you start the, " but does he really mean it?" internal torture. What he doesn't give you will cause further pain.

He needs to be struck by the horror of his actions, choices, and fallout from them to even begin to experience remorse and that is what you need to see to even begin to consider him a safe person to consider allowing to be in your life.

The advice around here is don't rush divorce. I agree to a point. I also believe you shouldn't rush reconciliation. Just focus on what you need not from him but from you and keep that focus, for now.


Me: 37

'til the roof comes off. 'til the lights go out. 'til my legs give out, can't shut my mouth


Posts: 6795 | Registered: Mar 2010
spareparts
♂ Member
Member # 33434
Default  Posted: 10:03 AM, December 1st (Thursday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Hi all WS's

Thanks for helping out around here.

I think I may have cocked up a bit by either over reacting or just stating my needs wrong. OR there is a change i was blameshifted to death.

My WW yesterday handed her notice in at work purely for me as she knew how working with the OM made me feel. Then today she is going away overnight on a work trip, and I was hoping she was remorseful enough to understand that whilst I am attempting to trust her I still feel the need to verify everything. We are not even 3 months out so this is really raw for me.

She very strongly reacted to the ask for a photo of her and the other girl she is meant to be with, so much so she told me I had caused the breakup of our marriage etc. Now I suspect she was more angry with herself for that rather than me, but the messgae came off the same.

I very calmly told her that if she wanted to leave she could, but can she try not to make any decisions whilst angry.

Now she hasn't sent me any pictures but that may change as she calms down. Realistically then my question is this.

Given that she has handed in her notice to make me happy, is it likely she is still in the A? and if not, was I asking too much of her to do this as well? I'm slowly thinking she might be saying "god i've just quit my job for him, now he wants more pictures too" and it being a bit much.

Though obviously the other part of me is now saying "sheesh it was only a picture, maybe she is with OM and is blameshifting this all away from me"

I know I'm right to be weary, and I don't think she is fully remorseful yet, more guilty but slowly getting there (I hope).

Thanks guys/gals


Posts: 515 | Registered: Sep 2011
suckstobeme
♀ Member
Member # 30853
Default  Posted: 10:14 AM, December 1st (Thursday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Can anyone describe the mental and emotional process as you go from that detachment and demonizing the spouse phase to a spot where you start to come to certain realizations about what happened and how it impacted you and everyone around you?

My IC says that exWH is starting to "get it" by some of the things I've been telling her. Certainly no signs of wanting to R but much less anger toward me in our limited contact and more trying to do right by the kids. In the early days, he was very quick to blow off visitation time and had no interest in my well being whatsoever. That has loosened to a point.

I believe that with all of his issues, including a very conflict avoidant personality, he is one that, if it ever happens, it will take him much longer to come to certain realizations. Even members of his immediate family have said that he was always that person who took a long time to admit his wrongs.

For those of you who were not immediately knocked off the fence , please describe the journey and some of the different phases that pulled you slowly back to a healthy reality.


BW - me
ExWH - "that one"
D - 2011
You get what you put in, and people get what they deserve.
Hard as it may be, try to never give the OP any of your power or head space.

Posts: 2505 | Registered: Jan 2011
uncertainone
♀ Member
Member # 28108
Default  Posted: 11:15 AM, December 1st (Thursday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

She very strongly reacted to the ask for a photo of her and the other girl she is meant to be with, so much so she told me I had caused the breakup of our marriage etc. Now I suspect she was more angry with herself for that rather than me, but the messgae came off the same.

There would be no reason for her to react strongly to this unless it was bullshit. As far as you ending your marriage, what marriage? She did that with her affair. She's working back to a relationship with you and transparency is not an option in any healthy authentic relationship.

If she gave her notice why is she going on a "work trip"? I've worked at and with many companies. None of them invest capital in an employee that's leaving. 

[This message edited by uncertainone at 11:18 AM, December 1st (Thursday)]


Me: 37

'til the roof comes off. 'til the lights go out. 'til my legs give out, can't shut my mouth


Posts: 6795 | Registered: Mar 2010
UnexpectedSong
♀ Member
Member # 21761
Default  Posted: 11:38 AM, December 1st (Thursday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

stillwaiting -

Should I allow her to come over to decorate the tree with the kids?

Absolutely not! She doesn't get the comforts of home and have her own little nest, too. You didn't tell her she could and even if you did, just tell her, "sorry, but you cannot come decorate the tree at home" and emphasize "home". Meanwhile, you and your kids have fun!


WW(SA)
"Feedback is the breakfast of champions." - Boris Becker

Posts: 6046 | Registered: Nov 2008 | From: California
UnexpectedSong
♀ Member
Member # 21761
Default  Posted: 11:40 AM, December 1st (Thursday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

spareparts -

She very strongly reacted to the ask for a photo of her and the other girl she is meant to be with

That is not a good sign. She needs to do whatever will help you feel more comfortable.


WW(SA)
"Feedback is the breakfast of champions." - Boris Becker

Posts: 6046 | Registered: Nov 2008 | From: California
stillwaiting1963
♂ New Member
Member # 34039
Default  Posted: 12:33 PM, December 1st (Thursday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Gipper, BaxtersBFF, & UnexpectedSong.

Thanks so much for the replies back on the Christmas tree question. I texted her before I read your replies and already said the kids are going to decorate the tree with me and she should invite the kids over to help decorate her tree.

I neglected to add the emphasis of "home" in there, I should have since I've done that on past issues where I'm trying to remind her that she's not "home". Darn, this would have been a good one for that!

Anyway, she replied back "Ok I'll let the kids know that was ur decision..."


Me: BH (48)
Her: WW (44)
M: 22 years
DD: 7/28/11
Separated 11/18/11

Posts: 14 | Registered: Nov 2011
UnexpectedSong
♀ Member
Member # 21761
Default  Posted: 12:57 PM, December 1st (Thursday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

stillwaiting -

Anyway, she replied back "Ok I'll let the kids know that was ur decision..."

Damned straight it was! Take back your control, dude.


WW(SA)
"Feedback is the breakfast of champions." - Boris Becker

Posts: 6046 | Registered: Nov 2008 | From: California
stillwaiting1963
♂ New Member
Member # 34039
Default  Posted: 12:59 PM, December 1st (Thursday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

wwnomore

How/when did she move out?

DD was back at the end of July. She admitted to her mom (when I asked her mom to press her on the issue)that she "kind of" had a boyfriend. The day after, off came her wedding ring.

Later towards 3rd week in August, she mentions one night that she's probably going to move out in September once the kids are settled in school. Then in September she mentions that she's going to start looking for an apartment for October. October comes and goes and nothing.

So she's still living at home, but treats me like a roommate. The family (kids and I) had an intervention of sorts with her sometime early October I think it was. We clearly state that she needs to leave the other guy/lifestyle, come back as a wife & mother or she needs to move out. Well, she didn't stop seeing the other guy, so I think her choice was clear.

A little bit after that intervention, she calls me at work and says she talked to a counselor over the phone and the counselor, after listening to her story, suggested that a trial separation might be best in her case. So she tells me this would be the best thing at this point. Give her a chance to get out and decide who/which/what she wanted. I replied "why bother with a separation? If you have no love for me and it's over, why not end it now?" She replied something along the lines of "No, there's still something there, I think a separation would be best."

Now, I want to make a note on the fact that as previously mentioned where she said "there's still something there", that I don't recall exactly what she said, but it was something along those lines. She's given me no emotions or hope since the end of July, so if she mentioned ANYTHING remotely resembling the possibility that there was a smidgen of feelings for me left, I would have picked up on it immediately! But when I asked her to clarify what she said at a later date, she said that's not what she said? Go figure.

Anyway, since that last intervention that I mentioned, she had been sleeping in bed with our daughter - up until 2 weeks ago when she moved out. I asked her what was up with that and she said it wasn't fair to me for her to sleep in bed with me. That intervention must have brought out some guilt, but not enough for her to stop!

So the last "argument/discussion" we had she said she was taking a small 401(k) loan to get an apartment and get established. She dragged on doing that, and dragged on getting an apartment until the middle of November. She's in the apartment now. She dragged on getting her own checking account (which she has now). She wanted one of the bedroom dressers and kitchen table. Has yet to come and get those, though our daughter has mentioned she said she does need to get those.

Probably doesn't matter cause she's at the OP place anyhow!

I did text her the other day and asked how she can be so wrapped up with this other guy and think he's providing her happiness. She replied that she was not wrapped up with anyone....think what I want. I know from my BIL that she's still recently been seen at the OP's house and at bars around town.

Well, longer than I wanted, but hopefully that answers your question.


Me: BH (48)
Her: WW (44)
M: 22 years
DD: 7/28/11
Separated 11/18/11

Posts: 14 | Registered: Nov 2011
uncertainone
♀ Member
Member # 28108
Default  Posted: 1:00 PM, December 1st (Thursday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Anyway, she replied back "Ok I'll let the kids know that was ur decision..."

You need to let them know. You don't need her couching it for her benefit! Never talk to your kids through her. Spin ain't just a political thang.


Me: 37

'til the roof comes off. 'til the lights go out. 'til my legs give out, can't shut my mouth


Posts: 6795 | Registered: Mar 2010
stillwaiting1963
♂ New Member
Member # 34039
Default  Posted: 1:05 PM, December 1st (Thursday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

wwnomore

Darn it. Got rambling on that last reply and never specifically answered part of your question. She officially moved out on 11/18/11.


Me: BH (48)
Her: WW (44)
M: 22 years
DD: 7/28/11
Separated 11/18/11

Posts: 14 | Registered: Nov 2011
StrgrThanIThght
♀ Member
Member # 33634
Default  Posted: 1:41 PM, December 1st (Thursday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

BaxtersBFF and uncertainone:

THANK YOU for your responses. I do post in the R forum, because he and I came to a consensus that we do indeed want to try to work it out.

In hindsight, communication has always been an issue for us during our marriage, but it wasn't until we were put to the test that we imploded.

BaxtersBFF - I have been doing the hand-holding, and he is still not getting it. In retrospect, I have been doing this most of our marriage... I talk, he listens, but does not "hear" me.

I wouldn't be rushing into reconciliation. There is a detachment that is required to have an affair. A switch of focus and energy that, to me is the true betrayal. The rest is just brutal carry on baggage that goes with it.

You need to start to heal from his betrayal. Time to shore up your boundaries and slow your bleeding. You need to be your focus right now and your children.

Anything you get from him right now may not only not help you but hurt more as you start the, "but does he really mean it?" internal torture. What he doesn't give you will cause further pain.

uncertainone - ^^^ your post was a "light bulb" moment. I am indeed still bleeding, not even healing yet. You are probably right that he does not mean it right now. NC was imposed by MOW and her BS, so my WS is reeling from being "dumped." He totally fell for her. His is in IC working through those issues.

So, I can do all the hand-holding and begging and you are SO right. I really don't want it unless he means it.

I need to take my type-A, control-freak, fix everything ass and back off a bit. That will be hard for me to do... wish me luck.

Thanks again!
-STIT

[This message edited by StrgrThanIThght at 1:42 PM, December 1st (Thursday)]


Me - BW (40)
Him - FWH (43) (he has earned the "capital" F)
D-Day - Sept 2011
Us: Working concurrently on ourselves and R

Posts: 391 | Registered: Oct 2011
stillwaiting1963
♂ New Member
Member # 34039
Default  Posted: 6:56 PM, December 1st (Thursday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Another question for WS. It would be great to also hear from WW's on this, as it has to do with motherly instincts.

For some reason this really struck me. I had called home to see what the kids wanted for supper and talked to my daughter. When I got off the phone it dawned on me how can my WW not see our kids everyday? Sure, our daughter goes over to her apartment maybe twice a week, but our son refuses to go over there. I know she texts the kids daily.

But how can you not want to see your kids everyday? I feel strongly that she indeed is in the fog (even though she would say otherwise). She has said several times "I am not the worst mom in the world". I don't know, letting AP or a single lifestyle take precedence over your motherly drive to be with your kids doesn't seem like a good mother to me.

Now I know she stays in touch with the kids daily, but what would your drive be to move out and not see them everyday. I suppose being away from BH would be one strong reason. I think there is something underlying that's broken in her to allow her to do this.

My dad agrees that's it more than just bad communication and money management in our marriage. He thinks something else is at fault. He's wondering if she just wants to live a single lifestyle to see whether that's what she wants.

She did say as a justification for separation that it would allow her to see a single lifestyle, that she got married too young (22), help her understand finances. And if I recall I believe she also made some comment about low self esteem.

She's an outgoing, social person. But my BIL's and I all agree that she needs to be the center of attention and acted sometimes a little selfish (compared to now when she's totally selfish).

So my question is were any WS's this way with their kids? I mean I know she would do anything for the kids, but at this time I don't know if it's just an act to stay on the kid's good side and trying to act like a good parent. Cause IMHO, leaving home is not being good parent.


Me: BH (48)
Her: WW (44)
M: 22 years
DD: 7/28/11
Separated 11/18/11

Posts: 14 | Registered: Nov 2011
hopeandchange
♂ Member
Member # 33287
Default  Posted: 10:48 AM, December 2nd (Friday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I would apprciate WW/WS insights on my WW reasons for her A and how she may or may not be doing the work to find and fix the
WHY and rebuild our M.

This was also posted on the R forum so I can get as much input as possible.

Nearly six months out from DDay and things have been going pretty well. We go to MC weekly and WW goes to same C for IC weekly as well. On DDay, WW shared all the “facts” and we had a good Q&A discussion in September. Since then we had not addressed the A directly due to the pace of life with three active teens until last night.

Here are some of the things I would appreciate your feedback.

At our MC session, I asked her why she sent AP photos the first time. WW said she did not recall what the photos were (she told me in Sep, two – her eyes and her breasts). Why those? Because she thought they were attractive. I told her she was avoiding facing her choices (emotionally hones). WW: I am not avoiding anything. I just have trouble getting in touch with my feelings. Same thing?

Why? Because the A was like a drug and she kept it going for the high. OK I can understand that from other posts / healing library. WW thinks this is all that needs to be known and I want her to reflect and understand why she needed this “drug”.

WW: It was exciting. It kept me busy. It made me feel sexy. It was fun! This is the same response WW gave IC immediately after DDay.

WW: It just happened. I was not looking for it. I was unhappy. I did not like you. The kids were mean to me. So I ask what is different today? WW: I am different; you are different (not really, only crumpled, torn and mutilated by her A).

WW: I understand your concerns about another possible A. I have learned my lesson and do not want to go through this again. OK, sincere and genuine but OMG she chose to have a 2+ yr A. Does anyone really need to have an A to learn that they shouldn’t?

WW: I have changed my priorities. This morning I asked her to explain what she meant. She got upset and said if she can’t share her ‘feelings’ without me questioning them then she won’t share them. Huh?

So though we have covered a lot in the past five months and our relationship is going pretty well, I do not feel WW has done the self reflection to understand WHY she chose to have an A AND understand WHY she chooses R today. There is no question in my heart that I love her and have told her so but I need the answers to both to continue in our M.

Any comments / advice?


BH (me, 50)
WS (her, 48)
Divorced!
3 wonderful teens
Heading for Happiness

Posts: 401 | Registered: Sep 2011
stilllovinghim
♀ Member
Member # 29971
Default  Posted: 4:51 PM, December 2nd (Friday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Stillwaiting:

My dad agrees that's it more than just bad communication and money management in our marriage. He thinks something else is at fault. He's wondering if she just wants to live a single lifestyle to see whether that's what she wants

Your dad is wise, grasshopper.

She did say as a justification for separation that it would allow her to see a single lifestyle, that she got married too young (22), help her understand finances. And if I recall I believe she also made some comment about low self esteem.

Excuses for her to live the way she wants & keep everyone else in the wings. Oh I got married too early! Oh, I missed out on dating! I wanna relive my youth! Blah, blah blah. No one forced her into M. That was HER decision just like it's HER decision now to tear it all down. It doesn't mean she hates the kids, but it proves how deep her selfishness lies. There are plenty of people who married young, were onlies & had a ton of kids who stayed faithful to each other. My grandparents as an example. they met when my grandmother was 14 & my grandfather was 17. They were married over 50 yrs until my grandfather passed away. There's many more others out there like that. She's just using excuses to justify her behavior.

Your right, deserting your kids is not being a good parent. Wrapping yourself up in an A is not being a good parent. Lying & justifying & being completely selfish is not being a good parent. If she's comparing herself to say, a parent who molests or beats their kids to make herself feel better, well, she is abusing them. You just can't see their scars, yet.

She's also possibly endangering her kids in the future by having them around another "man". Something I would keep my guard up on. Just because certain "men" date women, doesn't mean they don't like to go after kids...female & male. I'm not saying her AP is doing this, but like I said, having another "man" around my kids who I don't know....ugh, no. That's like asking a lion to babysit.

hopeandchange:

I would set aside a time & day that you both agree on to talk about the A. As an example, say, every Friday night between 9:00 & 10:00 pm after the kids are asleep & you don't have to work the next day. Set a timer & discuss & ask questions. When the timer dings, wrap it up then pick it back up on the next scheduled day.

Sounds like your W still has a ton of work to do & is nowhere near close to her "Why". She needs to drop the defensiveness & really start self-examining. Why did she think it was "fun" to have an A? Why didn't she choose D instead? What made it ok? Why? Why did she feel the need for the rush? It does not "just happen". A car accident just happens. Running into an old friend at the store "just happens". Falling onto strange dick for 2 years doesn't "just happen".

My suggestion to you would be to approach her like my H did with me. H made me feel comfortable & the more comfortable I felt opening up, the more trust I had & the further I'd go. My H also would ask questions & respond with no anger or harshness in his voice. If he got upset by an answer, he'd remove himself from the room until he could gather his thoughts again. Basically, it was almost like talking to a counselor at times. It made it much easier to open up.


“You have a choice. Live or die.Every breath is a choice. Every minute is a choice. Every time you don't throw yourself down the stairs, that's a choice. Every time you don't crash your car, you re-enlist.”
― Chuck Palahniuk, Survivor

Posts: 1933 | Registered: Oct 2010
hopeandchange
♂ Member
Member # 33287
Default  Posted: 6:49 PM, December 2nd (Friday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

stilllovinghim

Thanks for the reply.

me. H made me feel comfortable

Yes, this is something I need to work on. While I can keep the anger over the A at bay (acceptance I guess), I do push her to get it and not stop at I was unhappy and it was a high. I am direct and call it as it is.

But yes, I need to make her feel comfortable and still encorage her to do the work needed.

Have a great weekend


BH (me, 50)
WS (her, 48)
Divorced!
3 wonderful teens
Heading for Happiness

Posts: 401 | Registered: Sep 2011
stilllovinghim
♀ Member
Member # 29971
Default  Posted: 7:37 PM, December 2nd (Friday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

hopeandchange:

No problem, hope I helped. Feel free to PM my H (Stilllovingher) for any pointers. Your W sounds a lot like me for the longest time. Once she starts realizing that this is to not only fix your M, but her & that you already know the WORST of it, she may open up more.

In the meantime, write out a list of questions you have for her (nothing too long) and if you don't think she would be really receptive talking to just you, have her answer with an MC present. The MC should be able to help coax out more answers from her.

Have a great weekend yourself & I wish you guys luck.


“You have a choice. Live or die.Every breath is a choice. Every minute is a choice. Every time you don't throw yourself down the stairs, that's a choice. Every time you don't crash your car, you re-enlist.”
― Chuck Palahniuk, Survivor

Posts: 1933 | Registered: Oct 2010
Fighting2Survive
♀ Member
Member # 28410
Default  Posted: 9:06 PM, December 2nd (Friday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Tonight I shared a post I made in Wayward with FWH. The post was about how I was grateful that he chose to stay and work on the M and on himself instead of walking away from everything after D-day. I wanted to make sure he knew that I recognize the courage it takes to do what he is doing.

The post led to a discussion in which FWH shared that he didn't really feel pride in the decision to stay. He said that more than anything he feels shame that he had the A in the first place (he also included his alcoholism and the damage it caused before the A in this).

My question: is there a point where shame isn't the dominant emotion for a FWS? If there is, what takes its place and what helped you get past the shame?

It's painful for me to think that he will still be carrying this forward without some counter weight, especially since he has done many things that are very worthy of recognition since he started working on himself.


Me: BW, 40.......Him: FWH, 40
D-day: 3-22-10
DS1: 11, DS2: crawling
Status: R going well

"When you can tell the story and it doesn't bring up any pain, you know it is healed." - Iyanla Vanzant, Broken Pieces


Posts: 7279 | Registered: Apr 2010 | From: NC
BaxtersBFF
♂ Member
Member # 26859
Default  Posted: 10:09 PM, December 2nd (Friday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Fighting,
This may seem an inadequate answer, but he will likely transition to something other than shame eventually. Just give it some more time.

ETA - Sorry, I didn't have much time to make a better response last night, so here it is now.

I assume you are referring to tryingtoforgive's post. I think she put together a great post that addresses some of the underlying themes in the Wayward forum. We do have a choice in all of this. Whether we choose to stay or go, it doesn't matter. It's our choice. I think that many of us make that choice without realizing it. In the case of your WH, he made the choice to stay and heal and work on R, but he hasn't found his voice in all of this. It's like he had the right instinct and did what he felt he needed to do for both himself and for you, but his brain hasn't caught up with that choice yet.

Shame is an easy emotion for the WS to maintain. Despite any pre-A issues, we are the one's who caused the worse damage by having an A. So when the WS realizes that, they are going to sad, angry, and ashamed with themselves about the whole situation. They will do what they need to do, in the case of having a M where R is possible, they will enter into R thankful for that chance, but ashamed of what they did. I don't think any WS has ever come to the realization that tryingtoforgive is writing about right out of the gate.

So, despite all of the good things your WH is doing for R, he hasn't found that path to healing which will give him his voice. He hasn't realized that he can be proud of his decision to do the hard work, that he has committed to healing himself and to being the H that you deserve. In many ways, it seems at odds to be able to hold your head up that you are doing the right things now when the path is littered with such pain, most of which was our own doing. It's a constant tension for many of us.

I really do think that he will get there eventually.

[This message edited by BaxtersBFF at 6:44 AM, December 3rd (Saturday)]


WH - 44
BW - gerrygirl

Posts: 6047 | Registered: Dec 2009 | From: Boise
stilllovingher
♂ Member
Member # 29959
Default  Posted: 12:19 PM, December 3rd (Saturday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

just wanna pop in and say thanks to bax for that last post.


The only difference between a butt kisser and a brown noser is depth perception.
I'm sure WAL would agree.

Posts: 2385 | Registered: Oct 2010 | From: still BFE, but now BFE, CA
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