1. My WW is is often mean when communicating with me via texting. Is it typical to be mean and cold? She also does not answer questions if it has anything to do with asking for her feelings or stating something logical (as "do you know what you're doing to your family" for example).
2. My wife has never once mentioned wanting a D or even mentioning the word D in a sentence. Yet she tells me it's over, can't be with someone she doesn't love like she should, drifted apart, be friends just for kids sake (heard that one just the other day). States everything that it's over, but has never once asked for a D. My BIL and several other people think she's keeping me as a backup in case her AP doesn't work out. Or maybe she doesn't want to be the one to file. For being so 'done', you'd think she would have done that by now?
3. Since she moved out, she has texted me asking me to talk to our son and ask him not to hate her. And I should encourage the kids to go visit her (daughter will, but son refuses to). Is she feeling guilty at times? Cause she sure puts up a good front that nothing is bothering her.
She exhibits all the classic characteristics of being wayward, being in the fog, in what she says and her actions. The other day I texted her that she is verbatim what a WW says and does. She replied back "Wayward...my F*ckin' ass".
So I'm at this point still trying to determine if she is deep in the fog, or really wants out? She claims it's an EA, though I think otherwise. She is seen around town with this guy, though she claims she not wrapped up in him.
Any thoughts or information appreciated.
A couple of basics first...is he really NC? Is he transparent? Is all the ugly truth out there?
Nail him down. Give him the cold hard facts. He can either commit or leave. His uncertainty is his way to get you to make the commitment for him. He will play this card for as long as you take it. He is trying to outdo your pain. He is trying to one-up you in the hurt and confusion category.
It isn't a question of whether he can find love with you again or not, it is a question of whether he is going to do the work that is necessary to heal himself, help you to heal, and rebuild your M.
Don't let him continue to wallow in his own make-believe pain. He is using that to keep alive all those really good feelings from when he was in the A. And yes, they were good feelings, but they are not sustainable in any way shape or form, so he has to accept that, he has to realize that those same feelings existed when he first met you, he has to realize that he played his own part in the pre-A issues but that was not the reason he had the A.
Don't play this game with him. Call him out. And above all, take care of yourself first.
Would it do any good to contact the AP and confront him?
From what I understand this guy's wife cheated on him. So I'm trying to understand the mentality and morals of someone who can turn around and be with a woman who is cheating on her husband.
I've heard that he claims he doesn't want to break up her (our) family, but by allowing my WW to be with him, he's doing just that by influencing her.
If this winds up in a D, there's no way that I would go out and participate in an A with a married woman. It's wrong, plus I'm going through the pain. Why would I want to do that to some other H and his family?
How can this other guy be like that? Does it pay to try and contact him? At this point I don't think it matters if I upset my WW anymore.
4 kiddos in lower 20's
“He has no idea how beautiful the ordinary becomes once it disappears."
I'm not a WW, but your WW falls within the angry spectrum of the wayward scale. Not all WS are angry when confronted. I should ask my BW if I was angry...I don't think I was.
Some simple questions for her would be, has she said anything to the OM that she wouldn't say in front of you? Can she respect your wishes for her to stop all contact with the OM? If not, why? Why does her son not want to see her?
From the three posts you have made, it sounds like she has had an EA, but doesn't see it as cheating because there was no sex. Ask her if she ever kissed him, or if they ever held hands. See if she will give you access to her phone or her FB and email accounts. If she won't, then she will probably say that you are trying to control her and that she has no privacy. Point out that there is privacy and then there are secrets. There should be no secrets between her and the OM. Meaning, if you get access to her accounts and then see everything is deleted, then call her on it. There are ways for you to get her passwords if you look into the tech side of things for your home computer.
In the long run though, I think your best answer is to do the 180. If you see some vulnerability in her someday, then maybe print off Joseph's Letter for her to read. See if she would be interested in reading Not Just Friends.
Don't engage her. Tell her to take care of her own relationship problems with her son. Be there for both your kids of course, but don't answer their questions for her.
Sorry you are going through this.
Put your story in JFO or in General. You will get a ton of support and suggestions on how to handle things.
In short, your WW has to be ready to make the change. There isn't much you can do to get her to change if she isn't ready for it. Often times, a cold dose of reality will be what makes the difference for the WS, but not always.
Is it typical to be mean and cold?
Probably yes, if she is not remorseful.
She also does not answer questions if it has anything to do with asking for her feelings or stating something logical (as "do you know what you're doing to your family" for example).
Not answering about her feelings - she doesn't want to or she truly does not know her feelings. As for "logical" - be honest with yourself. That kind of question is not "logical". You are asking her to self-flagellate. That's fine and it is your prerogative, but don't pretend it's a logical (i.e., unemotional) question that she ought to be able to answer unemotionally.
2. My wife has never once mentioned wanting a D or even mentioning the word D in a sentence. Yet she tells me it's over [...] For being so 'done', you'd think she would have done that by now?
I don't know about this.
3. Since she moved out, she has texted me asking me to talk to our son and ask him not to hate her. And I should encourage the kids to go visit her (daughter will, but son refuses to). Is she feeling guilty at times?
She probably is. But regardless, a Wayward does not always stop being a parent. I am sure she truly misses her children.
So I'm at this point still trying to determine if she is deep in the fog, or really wants out?
You are giving her too much control by thinking this way. By trying to figure her out. What you need to do is take back control. You tell her: "This is what I need from you for reconciliation." Then list all the things: give you a timeline, go to IC, go NC with the AP, etc. Whatever works for you. If she won't, you are at the exact same place as you are now. You have already lost her. There is nowhere to go but "up".
But before you do that, decide if you are willing to divorce. An ultimatum not backed up is invitation for others treating you like a doormat. If not, you are stuck where you are. You cannot control her. You cannot change her. She has to want to do that and to actually do it. You do not have that option.
You just have to decide if her actions are worthy of you offering her the gift of reconciliation. At this moment, you have already lost her.
Would it do any good to contact the AP and confront him?
You need to do whatever works for you. Just think it all the way through. If the AP expresses remorse and tells you they had sex every week, how does that help or hurt? If the AP says, sorry dude, I want her, what does that do? If the AP says, we never had sex, do you believe him?
In fact, would you believe anything that he tells you? He may tell you worse stories so that you will kick her out. He may minimize so that you won't kick her out so that he doesn't have to deal with her full time.
Being a BS is not an inoculation against being a subsequent WS. Appealing to his BS-ness in his past is futile. And why would you reveal your weakness to him anyway? An invisibility cloak is a position of strength.
If you still want to confront him, do it like a lawyer in a closing argument. You are scum, you are moral filth, blah blah blah. Don't give him any room for defense. Pound him into the ground (figuratively). Don't ask him questions that you don't know the answers to. ("How many times did you have sex?", "did you walk in the park?") That makes you look weak.
All the AP needs to know is that you kicked your wife out (if that's what you want) and she came crawling back. If she doesn't crawl back, good riddance. If she does, what better rejection of the AP could there be?
[This message edited by UnexpectedSong at 12:08 PM, November 30th (Wednesday)]
How/when did she move out?
It sounds to me like she moved out to pursue this other guy behind a shield of "we're separated". She can't be a cheater, because, you know, you were already separated.
She won't file because she's not ready to do that yet....she wants to leave that door open to come back. She also doesn't want to take the blame for being the one to leave and file.
And yes, it is typical to be mean and cold. It could be that she gives all of her niceness to someone else and has none left for you...or it could be her way of pushing you away, again lessening the burden she has to bear.
180 is for you. Sorry to see you here.
[This message edited by wwnomore at 12:11 PM, November 30th (Wednesday)]
[This message edited by sunflower34 at 1:12 PM, December 1st (Thursday)]
My A was not with a coworker, but I want to address the general method of asking questions. Even though a Wayward should answer everything and should take everything the BS dishes out and should allow him/herself to be (temporarily) punished, the Wayward is still human. This is why a counselor sometimes can get more information than a spouse, because there is less at stake, so the IC can be more objective and not pass judgment.
When the question starts out in judgment by the term "ho-worker", sometimes a Wayward is not so inclined to respond. This is not right, it's not fair, and, like I said, a Wayward needs to do what he or she can to help the BS. But people are easily frightened creatures. Perhaps if you asked him non-judgmentally and parsed his response non-judgmentally, you may get more information.
[This message edited by UnexpectedSong at 12:39 PM, November 30th (Wednesday)]
Well I think it is over before it started to be honest.
He has not been completely NC. I found a few phone calls just today. He said that he was over her...a mistake..he regrets. But today says that he is not sure he is over her. I confronted him.
What he is sure of is that he should be feeling the passion and the feeling that he can't be without me already and he doesn't. He said that won't come with time and that he wants out.
I said you know you are going right back to her and we never had a chance because you never let her go. He said he isn't sure he is going back to her...really?? She is 22 and he is 41. He is living this "fun Fantasy life"
The worst part is...I trusted him enough to come back and now he is about to walk out on our 12 & 13 girls again. I don't know how he had me so convinced. I feel broken all over again and don't think I have it in me to keep going. I think it is time to just let go.
I waited 10 months for him to grow up and come back and he is pulling the same stuff already.
Feel like I am back at day 1
How can anyone give up on R in 3 weeks.
Why is it so difficult for my WS to apologize?
He has asked me what I "need." I have told him several times that I need specific apologies. Instead of a blanket "I'm sorry," I would like "I am sorry for making choices that have hurt you so much." Stuff like that.
I feel like I need to write a Dr. Suess-like book 100 Ways to Apologize to your Wife.
You can do it standing on your head, you can do it from a bed, you can say it when you mean it, you can say it, you can scream it...
I have shared my needs with him on numerous occasions and still NOTHING initiated by him. The only time I get a specific sorry I am looking for is in reaction to my crying or a question I have.
Why can't he do this?
WW said that she wants to help the kids decorate the Christmas tree at our house. She has her own Christmas tree at her apartment. According to our daughter, she has not decorated her tree yet, so I'm sure our daughter will help with that (cause our on refuses to go to her apartment).
I made the mistake (I think) of replying back that "That's good cause I suck at decorating trees". So I effectively said it was ok for her to decorate the tree at our home.
Should I allow her to come over to decorate the tree with the kids? I feel I should not in order to make her realize what it's like to not be at home.
I'm torn cause I pretty much said yes, but at the same time I need to 180 and NC. Or for the kid's sake, let her come over to decorate?
My son is impartial, he's just fed up with her acting stupid. Daughter is kind of the same way.
Thoughts on how to handle this?
No problem on the name...the two keys are close together. Besides, my IC called me David yesterday, which isn't my name. I get called lots of things...
I think you should get your tree decorated ASAP. Get your kiddos involved and help them out. Make it your tree.
Gipper makes some valid points.
Sorry you have to go through this on the holidays.
I saw your post in R too.
The reality of all this will sneak up on him soon enough. His lines about what he is sure of are crap. Right now he is getting action from a girl half his age. He may possibly be feeling limerance, which is a very immature, underdeveloped feeling in the beginning of a relationship. Combine that with the drug-ike effects of being in an A, and the fears he would have to face to pull himself out of this mess, it shows that he doesn't have the strength right now to change anything. And he will keep the good feelings going with the A.
Eventually, 22-year old OW will realize her daddy issues and will also realize that your WH will have a significantly reduced income due to CS and possibly alimony depending on where you live. The dream will fade.
The worst part in all of this is the pain and hurt he is inflicting on you and your daughters. He will justify it to the ends of the earth. He imagines that not much will change regarding his relationship with his daughters. He imagines that you will see that your M has been dead for a while (a load of crap, I know...).
The reality now is that you will heal. Your daughters will never look at him the same way. You and your girls will become strong and he will be alone. Many, many times here on SI, I have read stories about the WS who finally realizes what they have done, but by then, it is too late. Their BS is lost to them.
I'm so sorry for your pain and hurt.
This thread is strictly for BS's to ask questions to the WS's.
Please respect the format or stay off the thread.
"I'm happily indifferent to the ones who have consistently been wrong" ~kd lang~
There was a period early in all of this when my BW would tell me what she needed me to say. I would hear her, and acknowledge it in some small way. It took a long time to realize that she wanted me to say those exact thing to her. She basically wanted me to repeat what she had just said, while looking into her eyes.
It was a communication issue. We would talk, we both would listen, but for some reason I wasn't picking up on her words when she said "I need you to say x, y, and z". For one thing, I thought, okay, she wants me to say these things, so I will look for an opportunity to say these things without her expecting them. When really she wanted me to say those things right then and there. She just needed to hear those words coming out of my mouth.
Before this realization, I would think to myself that it wouldn't mean anything to her if I said them right then and there. I thought that it wouldn't mean anything to me either. Like sadness1's WH, I thought that I needed to feel those things before I said them. What happened, once I understood that my BW needed me to say them right away, was that I did feel something, and she heard the words that she needed to hear.
Is it possible that your WH is thinking like I was? That he is hearing what you are saying, but not really understanding the overall simplicity of your request? Maybe it would be a good idea for you to write this book, sit him down, and tell him to read it to you right then and there. And when he finishes, tell him that was exactly what you needed. You are already giving him an answer, but he is thinking he needs to reinvent that answer.
Another possible reason for him not being able to apologize is that every apology puts another chink in our armor. Every apology requires the WS to trust their BS a little more, or rather, to put ourselves in the BS's hands. I think that a WS feels they lose some control when they apologize.
While it should be your WH doing these things and initiating, if you think you are ready, and him too, you might try a little hand-holding. I had an english teacher years ago who always said there would be no spoon-feeding in his class. That meant that he wasn't going to help us through so easily. We were responsible for our own work. It was a very introspective class on poetry and short stories. Not your typical HS level class at all. Anyway, while I understand that a BS shouldn't have to spoon-feed their WS through things all the time, the reality is that the WS may not be equipped to do these things on their own and so they may need that spoon-feeding or hand-holding. They may not be able to take the leap of faith and may need to have some reassurance that their BS will be there in R with them. After they understand that, then I think it opens them up to the reality of where they are at finally and they will begin to understand that they are responsible for themselves. They just need a little help through the door sometimes.
Based on some of your past posts, it sounds like the OW in your situation is a bit nuts. Hopefully you have protected yourself and your family in some way. She sounds rather stalkerish.
Is there some way your WH can find different employment? Is there any way that the OW could be let go without the company getting sued over wrongful discharge or something like that?
Did your WH ever get into IC? Personally, I can't see being able to work in the same place as the OW. The boxes I used for all my compartmentalizing are full up and I wouldn't be able to stuff anything else in them. Maybe your WH hasn't reached that point yet. Maybe he won't ever reach that point.
From the sounds of things, I guess I would be inclined to believe your WH, but without IC, he could find himself in trouble later on down the line. Oh, and don't judge the benefits of IC based on your past experience with MC.
As to general etiquette, we are not your WH and didn't sign up here to have others project their situations on us. A lot (most?) of the WS here on SI are also the OW/OM, and the fact that we are here means we are working on our own shit. As Song pointed out, judgmental questions will not generally illicit many responses.