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User Topic: Long Term Affair - Part 27
Ellejay
♀ Member
Member # 30498
Default  Posted: 4:43 PM, December 7th (Wednesday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Trynhard - Did the Sociopath Test. I am glad to see I am only 38% towards being one. Perhaps by the end of all this I will have graduated with Honours!
I also did the test pretending I was stbxh and tried to be pretty generous (I think). He came out as 45% Sociopath, not quite there yet either, Damn! Back to thinking it must be all my fault again.

WYE - Hope you are having a better day today

Allgood - You are brave to keep ploughing through this with your FWS. I hope he stands up and gets his act together. Definitely need to approach things now as if you are starting again in a new relationship, with him acting like he has the respect for you that he should have shown all along. Hugs.

Land of Ellejay:
Back to feeling fairly good today. I realised I'd forgotten to take my ADs for a couple of days last week, hence my derangement for a day or two . I now realise that I am masking what in reality would be a very unstable and depressed me if I wasn't on them. Will I ever get off this Merry-go-round? No answer to that obviously.

I got very upset yesterday when I realised that my stbxh's eldest brother and his wife had recently been in town visiting my MIL etc and made no effort to reach out to me or the kids. My MIL lives 3 minutes away from me. I sent SIL a private message via facebook (she "friended" me months ago, not sure why as she has made no contact with me). Anyway, I was cordial but asked why in 12 months neither her or my BIL have reached out and I now felt I was no longer considered part of their family. I know this is all trivial in the scheme of things but it is something I will never understand.

All the Tribe:
You are all in my thoughts especially at this time of year which triggers so many emotions.

Ellejay


Married 25 years now divorced.
D-Day: 20/11/10
Me: 48.5 plus 10% GST
Him: mental age 6 (apologies to all 6 year olds)
Betrayal: Who cares anymore?

Posts: 1073 | Registered: Dec 2010 | From: Adelaide, South Australia
njgal480
♀ Member
Member # 24938
Default  Posted: 7:19 PM, December 7th (Wednesday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

m33 and ats-
it's funny that we all had these infidelity libraries!
I bought so many books on the subject that I had to give shopping bags full of them to my therapist. I told her to use them as a lending library for all of her clients that are dealing with infidelity.
Honestly, I now feel like I have a PHD on the subject. I definitely did more research and more reading on the subject than I did for my Master's degree!
I even read books about Female sex addicts etc. to try to understand what the heck the MOW was doing and why!

Hugs to all the LTA tribe.

I doing ok...my husband continues to be the model husband-so no complaints.
I'm coming up on my 5 yr d-day antiversary- New Years.
Actually I started my suspicions and surveillance etc. on Dec.2nd....so I'm in the middle of that time of year...but, I have to tell you that I am OK (so far LOL).

[This message edited by njgal480 at 3:42 PM, December 8th (Thursday)]


Me- BS
Him- WH
Long term marriage
D-day- Jan. 2007
5 yr. LTA
Reconciled.


Posts: 3139 | Registered: Jul 2009 | From: NJ
ImNellNow
♀ Member
Member # 28753
Default  Posted: 7:47 PM, December 7th (Wednesday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

(((WYE)))

LOL moment:
Apparently STBXFIL is having a hard time accepting our D. He asked my dad to coffee (they are not friends) to find out why on earth I would ask for a D from his son. (Yes, STBXFIL knows about Mr. STBXNell's long affair, knows that Mr. STBXNell was in luuuuuurv with the COW, knows that Mr. STBXNell wasn't sure whether he wanted his wife and children or the COW. Don't know if he knows that it continued an extra five months, though.) STBXFIL wonders if perhaps I'm going thru early menopause, and asked Mr. STBXNell whether that's why I went all craaaaazy and asked for a D from his cheating, lying son. Mr. STBXNell said "no!" and then Mr. STBXNell told me about it and he and I both laughed and laughed. Then, this week, STBXFIL asked my dad the same question. MY DAD. A man who has never indicated any knowledge that women experience any sort of "lady issues" at all and has certainly never used the word "menopause" in a public place. I'm snorting and laughing and rolling my eyes, and it makes me dizzy so now I'm going to stop typing and lie down for a moment.

hee hee hee hee heeheeeheeeeeee! OMG. Silly poor dumbass STBXFIL!

P.S. For those of you who do not know, I'm 39 years old. And I look considerably younger than that. And Mean Jolene has never taken a month off except when I was carrying the Boyos.

[This message edited by ImNellNow at 7:56 PM, December 7th (Wednesday)]


BS & D
Drinking wine and thinking bliss is on the other side of this.

Posts: 2370 | Registered: Jun 2010 | From: Baby steps on my new path
atsenaotie
♂ Member
Member # 27650
Default  Posted: 7:16 AM, December 8th (Thursday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

G' Morning Tribe.

I was up and moving an hour early this morning some fallout from FWW's enabling DS. Rather than get mad, I got donuts for the office and had the coffee brewing as people arrived.

m2 and njgal, most of our library was given away to SI members who said that they were stretched for cash and requested them. A few were shared with FWW's DDs, and some we have retained because they speak to us.

The last couple of weeks have been good at home. FWW has been attentive and tactile. Not much sex, but it is nice to be hugged and snuggled with. I am not reading much into this, but I am enjoying the lack of tension in our house.

There is some strife in her sister's family, and we were discussing it last night. Her sister's DIL has been angry with some of her sister's statements and trying to control issues related to her M 2 years ago, and a pending birth now. FWW's BIL (FOM) did not go to a party thrown for their DS by DS's FIL because of the strife. Their DS (FWW's nephew) is angry with FWW's sister and FIL and defending his W (did you follow all of that?). FWW commented that it is a shame that her nephew is not being nicer to his parents (her sister and BIL), that his W should be nicer to them. I pointed out I thought it was enviable that her nephew was siding with his W, and putting his family ahead of what his parents and others wanted. FWW did not understand this at first, but I went on to tell her how, from what I was hearing, her sister is behaving like their much despised late mother would have. How her sister and BIL are making it all about them, not supporting their son and DIL. FWW eventually saw this and understood.

In the past, her sister, Mother, DDs, exH, others would say things about what they did not like about me and FWW would take their side. Her relationship to her blood family (and concerns about her x taking things out on their DDs) always put their wants ahead of our needs as a couple. The same happened with our DSs when she would put being popular and a friend to them ahead of working with me (because I was a mean hard ass who assigned chores). In retrospect, I was the one who would not “punish” her for disappointing me, or not being who I wanted. I would be the understanding one (conflict avoiding), even though resentment was building inside. Because FWW realized deep down inside what she was doing, she would feel guilt, and it expressed as resentment against me.

Oh well, back to work, have a great day all…

--Ats

eta: FWW called a few days ago after work to tell me she was running late and had been talking with one of her employees at the new job. She mentioned that she was calling from her work phone (as opposed to her cell). I knew this because I have the numbers stored. I realized later that by calling me in a way that locates where she was, that she still thinks about "it". Is aware of the need to keep showing me she is not involved to help me keep feeling safe in the R.

[This message edited by atsenaotie at 7:28 AM, December 8th (Thursday)]


LTA BS 53
FWW 60
M 1990, dday 10-5-09
Reconciled

Posts: 3964 | Registered: Feb 2010 | From: FL
ImNellNow
♀ Member
Member # 28753
Default  Posted: 2:52 PM, December 8th (Thursday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Boy, conversations sure do lag when miracle isn't here to keep them going...

Did I tell ya'll that my lawyer filed on Dec. 5? Yep. Crazy.


BS & D
Drinking wine and thinking bliss is on the other side of this.

Posts: 2370 | Registered: Jun 2010 | From: Baby steps on my new path
njgal480
♀ Member
Member # 24938
Default  Posted: 3:51 PM, December 8th (Thursday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Nell-
How do you feel now that he has filed? sad? relieved? anxious?
how long will it be before your WH gets served with the papers?

ats- I have read that BPD runs in families. You can break the cycle but unfortunately some of the behaviors are learned behaviors. I have 3 siblings and 2 of them have BPD and NPD characteristics. We have had some crazy family feuds as well.
My advice to you is to detach and not to try to figure out what is going on with them.
Glad to see that your FWW was able to see what is going on with some detachment and distance.

Cuddling is good...
How did you feel about your FWW checking in and letting you know that she was at work?
Any news on the new job?


Me- BS
Him- WH
Long term marriage
D-day- Jan. 2007
5 yr. LTA
Reconciled.


Posts: 3139 | Registered: Jul 2009 | From: NJ
atsenaotie
♂ Member
Member # 27650
Default  Posted: 4:07 PM, December 8th (Thursday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

njgal,

BPD runs in families

That is what I have read to, that there is a physiological tendency for it, and that environment can influence development. We believe that FWW's M was BPD (certainly had traits), and her oldest DD has traits too.

Cuddling is good...

I agree.

How did you feel about your FWW checking in and letting you know that she was at work?

I did not recognize what she was doing until after the call. Then I felt sad that I was talking D and she is still tryig to be the person I want (or at least she thinks that I want). Then there was a flash of anger thinking of the times there must have been when she would have been with an OM and called me on her cell to tell me she was still at work and running late.

Any news on the new job?

They expect to make an offer in early January. The last candidate on site nterview was last Tuesday.


LTA BS 53
FWW 60
M 1990, dday 10-5-09
Reconciled

Posts: 3964 | Registered: Feb 2010 | From: FL
ImNellNow
♀ Member
Member # 28753
Default  Posted: 5:03 PM, December 8th (Thursday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

njgal,
I feel... hm... normal but slightly excited to get all the ducks lined up so I can start my new beginning (if all goes well, meaning if we can agree on everything, March 5, 2012). Slightly guilty-ish because I'm feeling better now that I'm not dreading the inevitable, while Mr. STBXNell is feeling sad and lonely. (Of course, I was feeling sad and lonely while he was getting his rocks off with the COW, which lowers the guilt-ish-ness considerably.) Overall, pretty damn good. And I feel that I shouldn't feel pretty damn good, which brings feelings of conflict. I'm a party.

ats,
I like that FWW was able to see the dysfunction after some time. It seems obvious to me, but then I'm relatively normal and healthy. (yawn) I don't like that it took you pointing out that 1+1=2, but we already established that your patience far surpasses my own.


BS & D
Drinking wine and thinking bliss is on the other side of this.

Posts: 2370 | Registered: Jun 2010 | From: Baby steps on my new path
atsenaotie
♂ Member
Member # 27650
Default  Posted: 11:28 AM, December 9th (Friday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

And the funniest post of the week award goes to Nell for her reply to this thread:

http://www.survivinginfidelity.com/forums.asp?tid=435744


LTA BS 53
FWW 60
M 1990, dday 10-5-09
Reconciled

Posts: 3964 | Registered: Feb 2010 | From: FL
ImNellNow
♀ Member
Member # 28753
Default  Posted: 11:51 AM, December 9th (Friday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

ats,
Sadly, it was a true statement. I had a very thoughtful response ready to go when my mind decided to go into goofball territory.

Just got a phone call from Mr. STBXNell, who is planning a trip to Chicago over New Year's Eve to visit BFF (who is there for an extended time, as he's unemployed and staying with family while working for his brother under the table). While I am aggravated by his forfeiting a week's worth of pay (after being employed for only eight weeks, and unemployed for three months prior to that), I am excited to have the Boyos all to myself on NYE and am wondering if I can throw together a little neighborhood toasting party for the kiddos and their parents (well before midnight). Hm. That could be FUN!!!


BS & D
Drinking wine and thinking bliss is on the other side of this.

Posts: 2370 | Registered: Jun 2010 | From: Baby steps on my new path
hopeandchange
♂ Member
Member # 33287
Default  Posted: 2:46 PM, December 9th (Friday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Nell.. NYE Block Party with the kids - Awesome! and the land of goofball made my visuals FUN.

Some minor ramblings going into the weekend.

SI is great! Besides the fabulous support, the posts can be very thought provoking and provide food for our growth. See this one on CHOICES. http://www.survivinginfidelity.com/forums.asp?tid=435299

This prompted another discussion with my WW
h&C: The A did not just happen. You made a choice, a lot of choices.
WW: You take that out of context. I said I was not looking for the A, it just happened.
h&c: You made a choice to respond, to continue.
WW: I get it. I made the choices.

Hopefully, this goes a long way towards WW finding what is broken and fixing it.

On to the subject of our MC and her IC (same). Very direct. Confronts BS when it is spread. BUT I feel I have had to educate C on infidelity. Ugh!

Within a month after DDay, C encouraged my WW to share the WHY they had discussed. WW (smiling) It was exciting, made me feel good, it was fun!
C: See h&c. Did you hear WW? Do you now no what WW needs?

I wnt thru EMDR with this C and it was a good experience. Whether it was EMDR or just having set aside time to let the pain, grief, and sense of loss flow it worked. But NOW, C still wants to continue and work on more triggers. Ugh! OMG a two year LTA - Life is a trigger! And I deal with them as they come.

WW planning an evening out for us tonight and I am looking forward to it. Tomorrow night, DD is having a gagle of friends over for an event. Sunday I sleep in. Should be a great weekend.

Best wishes to all.
h&c


BH (me, 50)
WS (her, 48)
Divorced!
3 wonderful teens
Heading for Happiness

Posts: 401 | Registered: Sep 2011
atsenaotie
♂ Member
Member # 27650
Default  Posted: 3:45 PM, December 9th (Friday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

h&c,

See h&c. Did you hear WW? Do you now no what WW needs?

Wow, just wow.

We have used the same person for MC/IC and it has worked for us. He is a PhD former Academic who I found in '07 when I was having panic attacks because I thought FWW was having and A

He is not great on all the issues re: infidelity, but one of the first things he said when we went in was to turn to me, look me in the eye and say "This is not about you, FWW's A was about her. There was nothing you could have done to prevent it." that statement helped me, and I think it was the start of making things clear for FWW.

The real quation is why did your WW need excitement, why did she need an OM to feel good, to have fun? And the answer is not because h&c was not exciting, not happy, not fun. The true answer is within her. A person can (should) be happy and able to have fun regardless of the attitude of another. Your WW was bored, unhappy, and not having fun because of something specific to her. If she never identifies that cause, owns it, and takes steps to correct it, she will someday find herself again bored, unhappy, and having no fun.

My FWW early after dday said the OM were nice guys who made her feel good, who loved her and that she was fond of them. Today, after a year of IC and much reading, she is embarassed to have been with them, and hates them for their role in her A. She once called it exciting and fun, but never would today.


LTA BS 53
FWW 60
M 1990, dday 10-5-09
Reconciled

Posts: 3964 | Registered: Feb 2010 | From: FL
njgal480
♀ Member
Member # 24938
Default  Posted: 4:05 PM, December 9th (Friday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

h&c-
sorry to say but I think you need to look for a new MC.
This one definitely does not understand infidelity and obviously is not aware of the latest research out there.
Blaming the BS is definitely old school. Our first MC was awful. He understood about alcoholism but he did not understand how to deal with a BS after infidelity. He wanted to brush everything under the rug -even more so than my FWH!
At one point I accused the MC of being a FWH and that he was relating way too much to my FWH. The MC did not tell me that he was not a former cheater...instead he said that was not a relevent point.

IMHO he was a former cheater who couldn't handle seeing my pain and trauma.

Not every MC/C knows how to deal with the trauma of infidelity.
Have you asked this MC if he has read "Not Just Friends" by Glass and "Transcending Post Infidelity Stress Disorder"by Ortman.
Its a shame but..yes..we sometimes do have to educate the counselors about the best way to deal with infidelity and trying to reconcile after a LTA.


Me- BS
Him- WH
Long term marriage
D-day- Jan. 2007
5 yr. LTA
Reconciled.


Posts: 3139 | Registered: Jul 2009 | From: NJ
Ellejay
♀ Member
Member # 30498
Default  Posted: 10:08 PM, December 9th (Friday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Transcending Post Infidelity Stress Disorder"by Ortman

I confirm that this is good reading. I think NJgal recommended it to me so THANKYOU!!

Immediately after D-Day last year, I went on a rampage on the internet trying to find everything I could on infidelity issues and came across some bizarre things on You Tube which made feel it was my fault. Once I'd discovered SI, I felt like getting hold of the so-called counsellors who come up with this crap and hitting them over the head. OK, there may be things that we can all improve on and address within the marriage but to somehow give the WS an excuse for taking this option is downright irresponsible IMHO and totally unhelpful in the long run.

This is just an example of this wishy washy approach:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vg846TJeSAA


and this on communication ......I have no words. He would have lost me after Hello, my name's Stephen Giles".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fa4bYkXasKY


Ellejay


Married 25 years now divorced.
D-Day: 20/11/10
Me: 48.5 plus 10% GST
Him: mental age 6 (apologies to all 6 year olds)
Betrayal: Who cares anymore?

Posts: 1073 | Registered: Dec 2010 | From: Adelaide, South Australia
ImNellNow
♀ Member
Member # 28753
Default  Posted: 8:53 AM, December 10th (Saturday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

h&c,
We went thru a few counselors before I found our final MC. He's great. As in, if it weren't completely weird I would have given him a standing ovation after each session. He was knowledgable about affairs and specialized in men's issues (Mr. STBXNell was the one who was not working thru his crap... and who still has a mountain range of crap). He was the third counselor we saw. The first time we talked to him I knew beyond a shadow of a doubt that if anyone could get us thru the post-A minefield, it was this guy. And he helped *me* immensely. Mr. STBXNell not so much, because he was never invested in getting help, just in being told he was right and in not doing any work. I don't know where you live, but I'm happy to give you the guy's name via PM if it works.

Okay, I talked to two of the eight families last night, and both of them are on board with a NYE party. And Mr. STBXNell bought his plane tix, so he won't be here. I'm so EXCITED!!! Boyo1 has a sleepover today, so I will have to do some serious cleaning today, but I'm hoping to make some more calls this afternoon and then sit with my cookbooks this evening and start making my lists. Yay for me!

ETA: Forgot all about this, but I strongly believe that Mr. STBXNell found a cheap trollop last night at a bar; he got home hours later than he said he would without any sort of contact to let me know (yes, I told him that was unacceptable as long as we were living under the same roof) and he has been texting this morning with looks when I wander in the room while he's poking at his screen. And yet, I only feel with some "how rude!" thrown in there. I thought about saying something about being careful to get involved with someone else before healing (because you end up hurting yourself or others), but then I thought, eh, he won't listen anyway. I do believe I've disconnected! Yay for me again!!!

[This message edited by ImNellNow at 12:37 PM, December 10th (Saturday)]


BS & D
Drinking wine and thinking bliss is on the other side of this.

Posts: 2370 | Registered: Jun 2010 | From: Baby steps on my new path
njgal480
♀ Member
Member # 24938
Default  Posted: 1:20 PM, December 10th (Saturday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Elle-
Glad the book was helpful. I think its really good for both those that decide to reconcile after infidelity and those that divorce because it is an extremely traumatic experience.
I actually tried to call Dr. Ortman at one point to see if he had any recommendations for MC in my area. I was hoping to find someone that followed his way of looking at infidelity and the post infidelity trauma.
The newest authors also have stopped looking at the spouses of sex addicts as co-dependent.Now they use the trauma model as well in dealing with them.
The book: Your Sexually Addicted Spouse-How Partners Can Cope and Heal by Steffens is also a book that all MC should read.

There are a number of therapists that follow the trauma model in terms of counseling couples after infidelity. Ortman is in Michigan and Steffens is in Ohio and there are some in Calif. (LA) and Texas.
So if anyone needs a name in those places they can pm me too.

Nell- it definitely sounds like you are in a good place and have made peace with your decision.
Your NYE plan is great!


Me- BS
Him- WH
Long term marriage
D-day- Jan. 2007
5 yr. LTA
Reconciled.


Posts: 3139 | Registered: Jul 2009 | From: NJ
atsenaotie
♂ Member
Member # 27650
Default  Posted: 1:47 PM, December 10th (Saturday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Nell,

...believe that Mr. STBXNell found a cheap trollop last night at a bar...

...two of the eight families last night, and both of them are on board with a NYE party. <snip> ... and then sit with my cookbooks this evening and start making my lists

I cannot think of better examples of unhealthy versus healthy self-soothing responses to stress in life. It is clear that Mr. stbxnell did not gain any insight from his post dday.

A tense evening last night. FWW is out with DS, I am reviewing my Pema Chodron while i catch up on chores around the house.


LTA BS 53
FWW 60
M 1990, dday 10-5-09
Reconciled

Posts: 3964 | Registered: Feb 2010 | From: FL
Ellejay
♀ Member
Member # 30498
Default  Posted: 5:12 PM, December 10th (Saturday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

A stressful couple of days. Has a very close friend ring me and say she was thinking of killing herself because of her physical pain and the fact that the accommodation she lives in is too small. Her family and social workers are also aware of her mental state and are monitoring it. Of course, I go over there to give her my support. After about an hour the realisation hit me that I just cannot give her what she needs right now. I am simply too traumatised myself over what has happened to my family and what continues to happen that I just do not have any reserves left. I felt so guilty because I have always taken on so much of other peoples pain and now I have to step back for my own sanity at this present time. I feel so bad for her and so sad but I just cannot do this now. That doesn't mean I won't ring her, or go round and see her from time to time, but I just cannot take on the guilt anymore of not always being available for everyone at all times. I guess by laying all this out in print it allows me to see that I am human afterall and have to take of myself first. I hate the way all of this has affected all my relationships and the ability to cope.

Stbxh came round yesterday to pick DD13. I was really short with him and tried to discuss money issues with him agreeing to pay half of DD's school fees, uniform costs, purchase of laptop for school etc. I earn half of what he does and he now has OW2 to share the bills with. I just felt so angry that he doesn't get that. Then he waltzed upstairs to see DS18 without asking me if I minded. He has no boundaries even now. I need to say something to him about that but don't know how without it turning into a major row with me looking childish. I just can't stand him in my personal space. I guess I could just make him stand on the doorstep when he comes becomes I'm damn sure that's what he would make me do if I knocked on the door of his and OW2's house. F--k it, I hate all this.


Ellejay


Married 25 years now divorced.
D-Day: 20/11/10
Me: 48.5 plus 10% GST
Him: mental age 6 (apologies to all 6 year olds)
Betrayal: Who cares anymore?

Posts: 1073 | Registered: Dec 2010 | From: Adelaide, South Australia
njgal480
♀ Member
Member # 24938
Default  Posted: 6:22 PM, December 10th (Saturday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Ellejay-
Good that you decided to take care of yourself for now.
That was what I had to do after d-day. I had to stop trying to be all things to all people because I now needed the self care and could not handle anymore sadness, grief, trauma, etc.

I saw that happen with a friend of mine...she just couldn't handle all of my emotional trauma post d-day and she had to step back in order to protect her own mental health (she had a lot on her plate at the time).
I understood exactly why she did what she did.


Me- BS
Him- WH
Long term marriage
D-day- Jan. 2007
5 yr. LTA
Reconciled.


Posts: 3139 | Registered: Jul 2009 | From: NJ
Ellejay
♀ Member
Member # 30498
Default  Posted: 7:37 PM, December 10th (Saturday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Thankyou NJ, I needed to hear that. I think it is hard for people particularly women to allow themselves to withdraw and not take ownership of everything around them, to realise that you cannot fix everything for everyone. Yesterday was the first time that I can ever remember thinking "I can't do this, I am not in the right place to help you at this time". It was quite liberating actually but very sad at the same time.

Anyway, onwards towards a better day.

Hugs to all The Tribe.


Ellejay


Married 25 years now divorced.
D-Day: 20/11/10
Me: 48.5 plus 10% GST
Him: mental age 6 (apologies to all 6 year olds)
Betrayal: Who cares anymore?

Posts: 1073 | Registered: Dec 2010 | From: Adelaide, South Australia
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