He really just doesn't get it, does he? I agree with what iwam implied, I do not think the A was ever fully over. You caught him last year at Xmas, that was not an exception.
This is the clearest difference between an OP and a BS I have seen on SI. It bothers you, rightly so, that he is wanting to be with you while he is still with OW. OW was, and apparently still is, OK with sharing.
Hugs for Strongish too ((strongish)).
Hugs to you Allgood!
[This message edited by strongish at 1:20 PM, November 27th (Sunday)]
Allgood: I am so very sorry. xWH still does not get it. It seems to him that he feels he should keep OW since "you threw him out" anyway. Yes, he does want you and the family back, but doesn't seem to understand that for you to believe it, to see that he is sincere, he is making changes within himself , including getting rid of OW.
Like many men, he cannot be alone. He doesn't get that actions speak louder than words.
You are so devastated because hope grew within you again. You still love xWH and the way he was acting during the holiday put that hope back there, and how much you miss "the old couple, the family". You felt that he really wanted you all back and if he really did, he would have given up OW and be exclusive. He felt "why should I be exclusive if Allgood says she is not taking me back" not realizing that he has to win you back. Idiot.
You need to make a decision. You can either write xWH a letter saying what you told us, how if he was sincere, his actions in EVERYTHING would show it. He must be willing to commit himself to getting you back with focusing on that. (If YOU want) Otherwise, the 180 needs to come into place. I know how hard it is for you not to have the touch, the feeling of love.
BELIEVE me I know.
Ready for 2 x 4's, but NPD and are were intimate while he was here. It's like we are starving for some kindness, some touch.... We will believe the words and overlook all the past actions.
One night, when NPD was here, we were all sitting in the living room watching TV. He was reading the news on his laptop and every once in a while would discuss with me what he was reading. I missed that so much, just sitting there as a family. I was so grateful for the moment, that I purposely forgot everything else. Unfortunately, when reality hits again, it's devastating. The holidays coming up makes all this harder. One step at a time, Allgood. You'll get there. Slowly, but surely detach.
Whilst this is incredibly hurtful, you have to try and get to a place where you can look upon it as information you needed in order to finally start detaching. It's no good people tell you not to love him anymore as it is still too raw, but you have now got to start making a plan that doesn't include him. You are worth so much more than this.
WYE - how are things going with your Mom?
Honest - I understand what you mean about starving for some kindness, some physical touch. I've been too busy dealing with the day to day stuff to think about it but now a year later, the loss of that is starting to break my heart. Nothing I can do about it though, not even ready but it still hurts.
Hugs to all the Tribe.
I haven't been able to catch up on things here....so busy now.
Mom is doing okay. She fell twice the first day, but hasn't since. It's mentally, physically, emotionally exhausting just to have her here.
Got into it with fWH about her. I can tell that her being here is not going to work as a long term solution....not if I want to stay married or keep my sanity.
So sad for so many. BIG HUGS to you all.
Every time you post I remember that we share a dday. I am so sorry honey. The world is f'ed up when it comes to this. When I think of you and your beautiful family.... it is unbelievable.
Stay "strong". Follow your dream and know that we are with you.
You also need to stay strong. Take care of you. If like so many of us you can't do this for you, then remember your mum needs you.
Your "radar" was so accurate. I remember last Christmas thinking "Oh no. He wouldn't!!!!!" Poor allgood. She's being paranoid.
STUPID LAURA (slap... slap).
More slaps. STUPID STUPID woman. Laura you are SO naive. Not seeing the bad in people is why you are here!!!
I kept telling myself he wouldn't do that to you and your family. How could he trade you for that whore???
Well I was wrong!!!!!!! Honey this is terrible. So truly awful. And yes you were right.
The problem is we are trusting souls. That's why we were so easily duped. We all believed in our S's and NEVER thought they would do to us what they did.
It really scares me. FWH is trying so hard (for him!) and I want to believe he is faithful. But it is so hard.
Many years ago we had a problem with a neighbour. The guy was nuts!! We tried so hard not to upset him but no matter what we did we kept having problems. He actually assaulted FWH TWICE. The last time very badly. We went to court, had restraining orders etc, but the problems continued. NOTHING we did changed the situation.
One day after court (and seeing other criminals there) I finally realised that we lived in a different world from him and those like him. While waiting our turn I couldn't help overhearing conversations and it was truly frightening. It was like these people were from another planet. With totally different values and responses to life. It was truly scary. I realised that there was a whole tribe of people in our world who looked like us, talked like us, seemed like us in every way, but who were truly like another species. They were like invaders. They had no morals. No empathy. No sense of right and wrong. The world revolved around them getting what they wanted and they had no sense of guilt or concern about how their actions affected others. The truly scary part was that they looked just like us. In most situations you couldn't see the evil beneath the surface.
I particularly remember a kid of about 16. Dressed in a suit with the most angelic face. A kid you would want to take home. His attorney was asking him to be bailed for Christmas so he could be home with his parents who promised he would not leave the house. There was no indication of what he did but the judge said "If you think I would let a monster like your client out over Christmas and risk him being free in the community, you are crazy!!" WOW!!!
I have now woken up! The world is a bad place sometimes. As Tryn says so wisely - "People are not always loving" (or something like that )
So we have to survive in this bad place where people are not what they seem. When we get a glimpse of "the other side" we start to study it. We want to understand it. We NEED to understand it so we can protect ourselves from it. But it is so alien. So scary. Almost unreal.
My FWH swears he will never betray me again. I want to believe him but it is so hard.
He hid amongst us but he was really one of the "outsiders" for a very long time. He was clever and devious and lived the life he wanted with no regard for me and the children. Now I need to believe that like a criminal he has reformed.
The trouble is he was sly, clever, manipulative, sneaky - downright evil. For so long. So it is hard.
Now I have to learn to trust him again - or leave.
Honey, I don't want to smother your hope. But for your sanity I hope this can be the nail in the coffin.
This fucktard KNEW what his betrayal did to you.
If my FWH did it again I hope I would have the strength to cut him off forever.
His excuse for continuing "I thought we were separated so it was OK".
Take the gloves off honey. Destroy the bastard. Do it with an innocent smile. Just do it!!!!
At Laura's Place
OW2 told FWH she was leaving town. Moving 800 miles away. YAY!!!! But what was he doing talking to her?????? and why did she think he would be interested????????
DS's 21st birthday party on Sat night was fun.
Work is crazy at present. Gotta go do some work now!!!
Love to all
I think when you decide to end your relationship, it does take some phases. You must understand the stages of change.
Just last week I saw something on Dr Oz and read about this. Allow me to apply it to someone ending the relationship.
1. Precontemplation. In this stage, we’ve either literally never thought about needing to change a particular behavior or we’ve never thought about it
2.Contemplation. Here we’ve begun to actively think about the need to change a behavior, to fully wrap our minds around the idea.
3.Determination. In this stage, we begin preparing ourselves mentally and often physically for action.
4. Action. And then we start. Wisdom—in the form of behavior—finally manifests.
Just like a WS needs NC, maybe this is a method to end a long term relations. Some people allow anger to force the change. Some people find new people and that transforms new feelings.(Stimulus) (for me, I first go NC with my W. Thsi puts me in a postion of no temptations. Then, I would find a new woman, even temporary to shift my feelings.. Yep, this new woman would be a rebound romance... hopefully we both would be in the same position)
This stage you are always needing to re-evaluate! "I made a mistake by loving with touch the one I am trying to end it with."
5. Maintenance. This is continuing abstinence.
I just googled and found this link amd posted the graphs.
Of course, I thought about all this, but my choice was to stay M.
[This message edited by trynhard at 6:22 AM, November 28th (Monday)]
I assume you'll be getting some spousal support. Be very careful about getting a better-paying job before the D is final because it could make a difference in your support. Prayers for your son, for his safety. BTW, we knew you were fantastic. I'm glad you are beginning to see it, too!
I'm glad there is no emotional upheaval when you are reminded of your FWW's A. I don't have any emotional responses to Mr. STBXNell's A, either. I think it was stupid, and I'm grossed out about who I was sharing my husband with. (Ick. Ew. Grossed myself out again. Ew ew ew ew ewwwww.) ats is right when he says that there's a big difference between a BS who is appalled at the idea of sharing intimacies in a non-exclusive relationship, and a OP who doesn't mind. Ick. Ew. Oops... random aside... anyway. I am no longer mad or sad or whatever about it. It was and now it's not. I hope that someday the thoughts and memories will fade and it will be a rare day when you are reminded. I hope so for you.
Your STBXidiotWfucktardH is a coward, plain and simple. He can't stand the idea that he may be alone because then he might have to take a look at what lies behind his mask, and he might not like what he finds when he faces himself. A brave person would want to do this, to become a better person. A cowering assface will self-soothe with whatever's handy, even if whatever's handy is the biggest skanky penny-crack-ho looking trollop in the Western hemisphere. In theory. Anyway. I agree with njgal that he probably does miss you, and does want you, and wants to get back together with you. The problem is that he refuses to do the hard work that will make him a partner that deserves you. He just WANTS. Like an entitled little spoiled brat.
And that's all the bad names I have for those two emotional vampires. Oh, look at that. I had one more.
I haven't had any urges to be with Mr. STBXNell, but the aforementioned ew-ick responses are still alive and well and overpower any other thoughts I might have. No judgement here.
I sincerely hope that you are able to carve out time to take care of you. Have a cup of tea, close your eyes, monitor your soul. Practice letting go. Practice being a mama bear for your own mental well-being and letting other people's problems be their problems.
I was reading along and then BLAMMO you lit the OW2 bomb. Listen, OW2 told Mr. Laura that she was going to move in the hopes that he would beg her not to move. The COW did it with some regularity to Mr. STBXNell. It's emotional manipulation. (Alien behavior.) You're right, he should NOT have talked to her. If she walked up to him and said, listen, Mr. Laura, I'm moving 800 miles away... I suppose he couldn't do anything about that. But what was his response, I wonder? Turning and walking away? Saying, good luck with that and leaving the room? Taking the bait and having a conversation? Hm.
Mr. STBXNell left this morning for a business trip on the West coast... left his wedding ring at home. Which I think should make me feel badly in some way, but actually just made me roll my eyes and LOL a bit. Because with his pudgy fingers, ring indentation and tan line, he looks like every other skeezy out-of-town businessman looking to get a little free twat behind his wife's back. Which may be exactly what he is right now.
I've tried to detach, but NPD kept reeling me in with pretty words, still paying the bills, etc. I wanted soooo much to believe him that I squashed my own perception of reality to make it fit.
I'm having a hard time going over things in my mind. All I can see now is that NPD cheated before we were married, and continued after we were married with the same OW (actually I think I was the OW in that case and didn't know it). Numerous times with many OW's, who I don't think knew, and then of course the current one.
While NPD was here this time, I actually did the 180, being myself, being kind as if he was a stranger, etc, and ironically, he wanted to be closer. Telling me how much he loved me etc. We got along very well, and I just figured I'll make this "visit" as pleasant as possible.
The problem was, hope started to grow in me again.
Over the weekend, I saw the phone bill and NPD was calling OW several times a day, talking on the average half an hour to an hour each and every day. So he was in a good mood because they were not fighting?
I realized that for the past 8-10 years, that's all he did. He was constantly calling her. ALL THE TIME. Even if I was overseas, he was calling her if he was home. Getting up in the middle of the night to call her or she calling him. This is not some fantasy affair. He lives with her, has a full life with her. and yet claims he doesn't love her.
Spends time while he is here going shopping for the OC's. Yes, he buys our boys plenty of stuff and tells me to buy for myself (Mr. Grandiose)
The full impact has hit me over the past few days. All his actions I was ready to be explained away becaues I wanted to HEAR and believe that.
I guess he cares about me, like a sister or something, who knows. BUT, he LOVES HER and doesn't love me.
That hurts. All I wanted was to be loved. Not used like my mother uses me as an object.
I have to give up everything to start anew, and was so damn afraid. Still am.
Ellejay: I know how hard it is to have one's mother living with you and to top it off you have to be a caretaker.
Please look into how much help you can get and other living options for your Mom. I am really surprised that they did not put her in a place for physical rehabilitation. She if she is qualified for a PT to come to your home. See if you can get a visiting nurse to come in. Medicare covers a lot of this.
FNF, how are you doing?
Nofun, please give us an update on how you are doing.
Laura, you sound very good. Even though it sounds you are on the right path together, the old baggage still gives problems. Keep on trekking. I am so proud and happy for you.
All I wanted was to be loved. Not used like my mother uses me as an object.
In the "shits & giggles" department, apparently OW was a bit ticked off that my X was so careless with a nude pic of her and that it has fallen into my hands. Apparently this has caused her to come to the realization that this is too much drama for her & that he should just go back to his wife & kids. Funny, funny. X was blindsided. Didn't argue with her (according to him) other than to say I made it pretty clear I wanted nothing to do with him. She told him there was no future between them and it was over.
So, this has allowed me to feel less frantic than I was a day ago.
X still wants to work things out with me, is more willing to do the things that I had asked him to do originally. I am waffling between outright disgust for him & for me and at times I think, what the Hell do I have to lose by giving this another chance. He's not moving back in, I'm not dating anyone else anyway, let's see what he can do. Then I go back to hating myself because I'm giving him another chance, where none is deserved. He is exactly the same person he was when he was with me.
So, I'm a little all over the place. The idea of talking to him and spending time with him again, quite frankly, terrifies me. I think for now, I'm just going to sit back & see what he has without getting attached. (Not sure if that is possible.) Told him I'm doing nothing other than trying to give him a chance. That he's again making promises that have been broken before and giving me no reason to believe he's sincere this time.
Thanks again everyone for your support. I realize that most of you will be screaming "What??!!" and I will be screaming it at myself as well.
Maybe I will snap out of this tomorrow.
Allgood: I believe deep in yourself you love xWH and would love to get back together, BUT not under the "old" marriage.
He has to understand that. He has to understand that he has to win you back and actions speak louder than words. He has not gotten it, will he ever? That is what you are hoping for.
Perhaps you could give a time frame for him to step up. (Not to move back in)
Make the decision for YOU. This time, NOT what is best for the kids because it seems he is trying to an "involved" dad.
Decide FOR YOU. You call the shots. Do you want to try one more time without him moving in? If so, he must know that you guys are being exclusive while you are trying.
There is nothing wrong to giving it one more shot. That is what a "legal separation" is all about anyway. To give the parties time to figure out what to do.
I have just come to the realization, and it was all so simple....I haven't decided what to do for me. I was letting the winds of fate bounce me around and really hadn't taken a stand for myself.
So simple, but so devastatinglyl hard. Procrastinating because of fear of loss: of love, of what I had, of ending an old life that I sacrificed so much of myself for and don't know who I am anymore.
I tried to change myself to fit into a different slot and it didn't work and was still shoved away believing meaningless words.
NPD tried to tell me several times over the years that perhaps we should separate and if I asked why, it was because he felt we didn't make love often enough (1x per week or more wasn't enough with small kids) when I asked to see if we could work it out, he said ok. So I thought we were working on something, not that he really wanted out.
But that is besides the point. THere I was again looking at HIS needs and not mine or the relationship's needs.
Right now I have to look at my needs, and oh boy they are NOT being fulfilled AT ALL!!!!
Thanks for listening to my ramble. Guess I need feedback to help me settle some things in my mind, so this is not a vent per se
Honest - Im blowin in the wind, just like you. Lol.
Ok. Gotta go be productive now.
Peace to all.
Wow! I don't have any sage wisdom to pass on other than to let each of you know that I think about you all very often and pray for all of us.
I am surprised that the hospital released her to live with you and did not encourage her to go to a rehab. Even patients on Medicaid or Medicare get up to 6 weeks of rehab after surgery and after a procedure like hers she may need even more PT and rehab to help her learn how to handle all of this.
She also should qualify for home health care for a period of time.
Maybe I'm sounding harsh but I know how damaging my BPD mother has been in terms of interfering with my siblings marriages/lives/children etc.
All the rules change...
He had a chance to do it his way...and this is where it has led.
Now..its time to do things your way.
And thats when you lay out your demands.... 100% transparency, total access to all of his passwords, emails, cell phone records, cell phone, credit card bills etc.
You need to demand NC with the OW and you can demand that he call her in your presence(even on speaker phone) and tell her that the affair is over forever because he realizes now how much he loves his wife and how much he wants to save his family. He has to agree to go to IC (to figure out what the hell is going on in his brain) and he needs to agree to MC when you are ready to go to MC with him.
Other demands... no going out with the drinking buddies...not now... maybe never... he needs to come home at a decent hour... he needs to stop drinking and if he can't stop drinking..he needs to get help for his drinking.....
I'm ranting and rambling here... sorry....
those are just a few of the things that come to mind when I think of what a WS needs to do to reconcile after a LTA.
I don't want her living here permanently. At all. Unfortunately, though, at least for now there really isn't anywhere else for her to go.
I'll do everything in my power to get her on her own again. And....I've learned that I can't fix her. If she regresses back to the same patterns, I will have to tell the social worker to find another solution. She's on home health, and they are all aware of her history.
In other news....
I got fWH a new ring. It's a cheapo replacement until we (I mean I) am sure that we are good. I want him to wear it, mostly because the one he's always had is a huge trigger for me since he took it off, left it on, whatever.
Should I just give it to him? Or should I say something, I don't know, deep and heartfelt that might actually be a little contrived?