Another crappy night, resulting in only a couple hours of sleep. I look like the walking dead.
I was quiet last night, he knew I'd been crying all day about the non-pregnancy. His reaction was only relief, and the truthfulness of his reaction makes me see now that he's never going to change his mind.
I drank too much (never a good idea) and then he made the dumbest mistake ever. He asked me how I was feeling. I told him I was sad and angry. Then he wanted to know why I was angry. WTF?!?!?!?!
Really??? You don't know why I am angry?
I hate this.
Hard as it is to accept, WSs will never realise how badly we have been hurt.
Then he wanted to know why I was angry.
It is really tough, I know. I have come to understand that even the most remorseful WS never seems to understand the enormity of what they have done.
For most of them, it is in the past. They are sorry so they think that makes it OK.
Only a BS can really understand.
Sending you a pm
In the last week or so, I've seen things much more clearly. I'm pretty sure he has NPD....which complicates (or, I suppose explains) the situation.
Even he agreed that he probably has NPD.
There is so much to try and work on...sigh.
2 days and she hasn't emailed him back. I keep checking because he asked her for her new address, and that may come in handy for moi! Love having photography to put in my attorney file
Hope everyone is having a peaceful Saturday.
Sometime in the last day FWW left a note in the latest book I have been reading. In it she said she wished that I showed as much interest in her as I did my book. I acknowledged her note, but I am torn on how much I need to respond to this indirect communication. She said she has been reaching out, but it is hinting at best. For example, when I got home from work yesterday she asked if I wanted to go to the HS football game. I said no, I was tired and it was an away game. She commented it was hot also. Later that night she told me she had wanted to go to the game. Today she asked if I wanted to go to bar to hear band, I reminded her the music was from 2-6, it was already 1 and she had plans to meet a friend for coffee from 4-6. Tonight she went to bed with a book without saying anything.
I said from March through July that our relationship has not been working for me. I told her just talking, and brought this up when we restarted MC. I told her what was not working and what I thought was needed to make things better for me. When I brought it up in MC she said she was to depressed to help me.
I have been working on me. Looking for better paying work, trying to cut expenses, etc. I understand she is uncomfortable with sex. I understand that she is not always able to tell me how she feels. In the face of that I have been working on me, and supporting her through her surgery and going to the wedding I was not invited to.
So now, how much do I have to do still to work on us? I feel like this is another chore assigned to me, that she is saying it is my fault we are not doing well.
I have put up with 4 OM, TT, being treated poorly the first year after dday, limited information about her A, sex once a month or so, being told she does not feel love for me, but WANTS to love me someday, and my needs being second to her work, her sister, her DD. I am done.
I would love to have a happy M, but if she wants one with me she needs to step up.
I'm not defending her, I'm just saying that my husband probably feels very much like you do right now.
Hmn. In other thoughts -- had a lightbulb moment: you know when you get scared there's that second where you just FREEZE and your heart is pounding and you can't breathe right? And in that second is when you decide "fight or flight"? It's like I've been trapped inside that single second for two years. Maybe that is what they mean when people use the term "shell shocked."
I wonder about the number of kids too. We have 4.
Sad to think that it may be some risk factor or something. :(
Four kids. Yep. And you know what? He lost out, not me. They are lovely boys because of ME. I brought them up, he provided the funds. He wasn’t here half the time and when he was, they would often leave the room as he walked in. That’s the untold effect his affair was having on this house at the time. I don’t he ever realised just how great the impact was. As far as he was concerned it was in a box and nothing to do with the rest of his life. Stupid fucking idiot. Rant over.
He asked me how I was feeling. I told him I was sad and angry. Then he wanted to know why I was angry. WTF?!?!?!?!
ATS Hmm. When I read your post, my thoughts were in the same vein as m33. If she felt the need to leave a note in your book, isn’t she saying she wants to spend more time with you? I know that for some people just being in the same vicinity is enough, but perhaps she wants more of “you”. Why not just say “yes” or “ok”? It sounds as though she was trying to reach out but doesn’t want to go too far in case you bite her hand off. But I can understand how you feel. I have done just exactly the same sort of thing. A kind of “oh no, don’t want to seem too enthused in case he thinks he’s onto a good thing and that everything’s fine”. It feels safer to stay inside the cage rather than venture out. So, having read your post, that is a promise to myself for the time being. Like the film Yes Man. How about you try it too?
m33 – good luck on the job apps! Sounds like you’re tearing into them like a graduate! More seed = more chance of reaping the best job. Fingers and toes all crossed for ya!
survived wedding a - though i did feel sad for a while that the past 19 years have been stolen from me. time to make new good memories.
All my college courses have been cancelled. Got refunds on two of them and the other is holding until January. But my frustration is that they told me so close to the start date (like the Friday before) that I had no chance of finding another to start this term. It’s a downward spiral of cutbacks in adult and local education, prices going up, wages static or going down which means that people who are already strapped just aren’t prepared to pay out on things that aren’t necessary. >sigh<
LauraDid the same, I’m ashamed to say. The FB thing (aka FBFFB – facebook for fuckbuddies) I don’t know why that stupid OW put such “humour” on her wall, it just confirms that she has NO class. Real trash. Soooo, I had a little sneak at MOW, there’s not much to be seen and I check on her and her family once a month…. Ok, so I failed this month. But she had a link on her wall and allowed it to be seen “Do you remember where you were on September 11th 2001?” and her answer was “Yes I can remember exactly where I was and what I was doing” I bet she fucking can. (it was also first contact from WH to her) Was she out to wind me up? Or to remind fWH (should he be looking)? Or to remind herself? I wonder if her BH has seen it. Stupid bitch.
[This message edited by UKgirl at 7:07 AM, September 25th (Sunday)]
These are Desire Builders
- Positive attitude
- “Present and Future” Focused
- Cooperative attitude
- Positive “self Talk”
Let me answer. HARD.
but my W and I try everyday and I am really getting to a good place.
ats: when i read your post the first thoughts that came into my head is that "she is" reaching out to you...she is doing it timidly because she fears your rejection, ironic isn't it....anyways...she is trying in her way, and whilst you see little effort, for her im thinkin its not little, but filled with fear....little steps, BUT STEPS just the same....
jd: what are you doing for you???.....i get the waiting for the other shoe to drop, i lived it and it dropped...but whether or not it drops what are you doing for YOU.....are you in ic???
are you taking care of you???.....
wye: i understand those fustrating nites, days, minutes, hours, the neverending feeling of dread, fear, anxiety....and it sucks, there is no way around it but through it...but realize this if nothing else...you will get through it....we are survivors and we will thrive....so let it be your mantra...
"i will survive and i will thrive"....
and you will get there one crappy nite after another...there will eventually be less and less of those nights...take it one step at a time and celebrate the fact that you are and will get there...
for your non-pregnancy..is it possible that you were ready to look upon the possible pregnancy as a life raft , a sign that there is life after this....if so, grieve for your loss...you might be feeling that it may just be another sign in the opposite way and the fact that he is not reacting the way you wish he did only adds to your already strained state of mind.....
as for his asking....alot of them ask...mine asks all the time, i have developed quite the sarcastic tongue and frankly it may not be the high road but it feels good to throw the barbs.....so i do, i no longer take every opportunity to do this though so I am making progress on this.....slow and steady wins the race so i have been told....but steps are steps...
and wye what are you doin for YOU???....are you in ic?
jd and wye: you need to take care of you in every possible way, treat yourself to some major tlc, indulge in some things that help you to feel good, and the things you indulge in need to not have any nasty side affects like drinking....get a massage, your nails done, have a girls nite out, shopping..whatever floats your boat...and when you find something make it a regular occurance for yourself....it will help, especially on those days where you really dont want to crawl out of bed, never mind leave the house if you kwim....
laura: i check less and less, we do it in steps....and for quite different reasons...just know and make a resolve that someday you will not do it anymore because you won't feel the need...
Not only was he with his whore all.the.damn.time., he took our kids to MEET HER!!! Riiiiight, they aren't going to be scarred by that at all.
Miracle - I think you are right....I am going through a bit of a grief process with the non-pregnancy. It's amazing how fast you get used to the idea of having another baby...even knowing that it's probably a terrible idea at the time.
I guess that I did see it as a sign. I don't know.
I am in IC, just started yesterday. My therapist is actually a bit amazed that I am doing as well as I am! LOL
I am pretty sure that I'm entering the anger stage now though, and I'm just pissed that he did this. To me, to the kids, to our marriage, our home, himself.
If I love him now (which I think I do) I'm loving a very different guy than the one I married.
M - sorry about the courses.
Ats - sorry but I would be happy if she reached out to me like that at the moment. Its an attempt so dont write her off yet.
Back to work & pretend this w/e didnt happen.
I know I don't post as much as I used to, but I do check LTA every day, usually more than once. I do very much care about how everyone is doing, I just find that I don't have that much to contribute anymore.
Ats: I agree with the others that she is reaching out to you. Just don't dismiss her out of hand, make sure that this is really, really what you want.
DP: Glad you got thru your anniversary ok. What ever happened to the PI? I get the feeling that you have not yet confronted OM's BW yet. In any event, I wish you well.
Last night's events at my house were off the wall. I had to threaten to call the cops in an effort to get him to cut the shit, but wound up calling his partner instead.
He was going to watch football after work, so I texted him that I would tell the kids he would see them tomorrow. He said he would come over after the game. Game ended 1 hour before the kids' bedtime. By bedtime, he hadn't arrived, so I told him they were in bed, no need to come over. (But I was pissed - not that the kids even asked about him, but still...) He texted back that he had to stop at the house to pick up something he needed for work. I immediately texted back wanting to know what time he was coming. He didn't respond to that text or the next 2, or to my phone calls. I just wanted to know when he was coming & told him not to come after 10 as I would be in bed. No response. He just shows up at 11 & starts going through the house looking for his stuff without saying a word to me. So I confront him & he tells me he didn't get any of my texts, etc. so I gave him the short version of why I thought he had some serious balls walking in like that, to which he responed by calling me a f*ing c*nt.
Well, nothing sets me off like that. I told him to just get his shit & leave. Just before he was leaving he started to talk to me in a very condescending way & it was clear he was about to say something along the lines of Good luck finding a guy.... (I assume this was about to be a really low blow about me - so I just started yelling over him to get out of the house, etc.)
This continues til he leaves the house. Then he realizes he left his keys inside. I go get them, but the whole time he is berating me & calling me stupid. Can you imagine? THe audacity of it - he left his fn keys in the house & calls me stupid! A brief conversation about this ensues (thru an open window), but he doesn't stop with the name calling. All I am saying is that it's pretty stupid to call me stupid when I'm holding his keys in my hand. But, he doesnt stop. So, I open the door & throw his keys out into the grass. Guess he couldn't find them because he then continues to yell at me while ringing the doorbell repeatedly for me to get his spare set of keys. Eventually I gave them to him. He used the headlights from his car to find the other set of keys and drove off cursing me out while I was on the phone with his partner. (I was outside at this point trying to get him to talk to his partner - I thought he could calm him down.)
At least 1 neighbor (I think it's the one my x is friends with) came out to talk to him. I'm sure the rest of the neighbors heard plenty.
About 20 min later he realizes that his apt keys mustve fell off & he was locked out of his apt. He had to sleep in his car last night. He sent a bunch of texts basically threatening me that "No more Mr. Nice Guy", that kinda thing.
I do feel bad about throwing the keys, especially as he had a pretty important day at work this morning, but there really is only so much I can take. I am amazed at how such a small issue can spiral out of control so quickly just by using harsh hurtful language.
I called him this morning & told him I was sorry about throwing the keys & we can discuss the rest later if he likes. (I told him last night I was changing the locks & I didn't want him in the house anymore.)
o.M.G. How did this become my life?
ETA: Partner know exactly how my x can be when he's pissed or convinced he's right there's no talking to him. He said he's been having a hard time the last few weeks - that he's conflicted about our relationship & that he's been pushing him to just make a decision & commit to it 100%. Thinks he is having a midlife crisis. I told him I have no idea what his problem is but I have no intention of devoting myself to someone whe's not sure if he wants to be with me. Really couldn't argue with that.
Ok. Got to go.
Peace to all.
[This message edited by Allgoodnamesgone at 7:30 AM, September 26th (Monday)]
And isn’t there something you can do about the locks? Or some sort of order whereby he is NOT to come to the house at hours when he knows you are all in bed? It doesn’t seem right that he can come and go as he pleases. As for sleeping in the car, well tough. Maybe he should just get his life organised a bit better and stop blaming you for his shortcomings.
Put that day on the shitty day pile and rise above it today.
[This message edited by UKgirl at 7:57 AM, September 26th (Monday)]
I'm so sorry Mr Nogood is being a shit -but I guess we already knew what he was.
In a way I think it is all so sad. He may be spiralling out of control as he begins to realise just what he has done.
I am sure that these FTs who don't get moving and do what it takes to save their families from their stupidity do eventually have a light bulb moment. Perhaps he is starting to have one and this is the source of his aggression. But he can't face his own fucktardness so of course everything always was and still is your fault - hence his anger towards you.
HUGS to you honey
Allgood, I really feel for you when I read a post like your recent one. Mr. NoGood's behavior reminded me of FWW's xH early in our M. No consideration at all for our family schedule and dynamics, he would call/cancel visitation/schedule extra visitation with their DDs at the drop of the hat. Absolutely no understanding of how calling 45 minutes after the girls were in bed, or cancelling visitation 15 minutes before he was due to pick them up would f*ck up everybody else’s schedules and plans. But I believe that this is a part of the WS mindset. A lack of empathy helped them to conduct the A with little to no regard for the impacts their actions could have on us, the M, their careers, their health. This same lack of empathy makes them difficult to co-parent with or work out D details, because they cannot put themselves in anyone else’s shoes. I suspect that Mr. NoGood honestly believes he has been Mr. NiceGuy. He just does not get it, and that is why he has been unable/unwilling to change in the ways you needed.
As for me, the responses from the tribe to my post (late) Friday night were not really what I expected. But that is OK, if I were confident I had all the answers I would not post questions.
Would it have been OK with you if your FWW went to that football game anyway? If so, does she know that?
If she had said she wanted to go, I would have gone with her. She asked what I wanted to do and I told her. I wanted to stay home and relax. For much of our M I have tried to guess what she wants, but I do not want to do that any longer. She will ask if I want to do "X" either because she wants to but does not want to take responsibility for stating what she wants, or she asks because she thinks she should ask, but she does not really want to do "X". In a similar manner, she said that the last few weeks while she was feeling sick she wished I had come and lay in bed with her. She did not ask me to, or tell me this, she just hoped I would. She does not want to want or need anything from me, so it is hard for her to know what to ask me for to meet her wants or needs. She wants me to instinctively know what she wants (even though she herself does not know what she wants) and to do this.
These are Desire Builders
Part of the problem, for me, is that it feels like it has been a one way street. I understand the importance of being positive and building her up, but when I feel I am not receiving the same from her for an extended period of time I begin to suffer from detachment and burnout.
If there is a future together for Ms Atsenaotie and I we eventually need to work through what it is we both want out of our M. A big obstacle is that she is not able to advocate for herself in the M. We have talked about this in the past, and did again on Sunday. While frustrating, at least the discussions are consistent.
She says she wants to be with me, and that she no longer thinks of alternative futures. But, she has always felt and still feels disconnected from me, and that she disappoints me and cannot ever make me happy.
I desire physical touch and intimacy, and time together as a part of our relationship, and to me these are clearly wants, not needs. For FWW, the things she wants from me she perceives as needs. If I do not smile she immediately presumes I am upset and that she is reason that I am upset. Some of the times when she is struggling with an issue she wants me to rescue her and take care of it, other times she resents me stepping in and takes it to mean I do not think she is competent to solve the situation herself. The problem is that she does not differentiate these situations to me in any manner. She does not ask for help when she wants it, nor indicate that while frustrated she wants to solve the issue on her own. She wants me to know when to step in, and when not to, instinctively. She acknowledges this does not make sense and is not fair, but this is how she feels.
I am very aware and sensitive to the fact that it is a common issue that wives complain that if they hug their husband or show any sexual interest he will immediately want intercourse. This is not our problem. For as long as I can remember, sex for us has been about once a month or less. Sure there are weekends where we might have sex 3 days in a row, but then we will go another 4-8 weeks.
We have talked about non-sexual touching and structured time for intimacy, but this has not worked either. Knowing that she cringes inside 4 out of 5 times I ask to have sex or touching, I just quit asking.
With the OM, despite the need for discretion, they could have sex at least once a month, meet in an afternoon, exchange flirty texts, send erotic pictures, or have phone sex. She felt in control of them, superior to them, and had no problem saying no if she did not want to do something with them. With me she feels obligated, and is afraid to do anything sexual for fear I will want to have sex. So the result is I am frustrated, and she feels inadequate.
On Sunday we also wound up talking about her As and post dday, especially our differences in how we each perceive the discussions. It is her perception that we talked about her A’s a lot during the first year after dday. I agree, but it is my perception that much of this discussion was her telling me we had already talked about whatever I had asked, asking why I would ask the same question over and over, or arguing that the premise for my question was incorrect without ever answering the question. She admitted that she was trying to protect herself and minimize the damage by withholding information, and that she is still doing that. She also, a bit indirectly, admitted that she loved the OM, and that for the most part she did enjoy the sex (duh!).
So my take away from my discussion with FWW is:
• she wants us to work out, we are not working well now, and she does not have any solutions to correct this
• I want regular physical touch, fun time together, and for her to place our M before the desires of her children, family, or work
• she wants me to anticipate and meet her needs, even when she is not aware of them at the moment
• she still has me up on way too big a pedestal
• she loves me, as much as she is able to love another adult
• I don’t want to divorce, nor do I see any sense in staying in a M that is mostly friendly roommates
[This message edited by atsenaotie at 10:24 AM, September 26th (Monday)]
UKGirl - as far as apologizing - it was limited to me throwing his keys. I didn't need to do that. He was already out of the house. I could've just handed them to him, but I was just so outraged that he was still calling me stupid, etc. under those circumstances. So, while I'm not exactly beating myself up about it, if I had to do it again, I would've just handed him the keys, it would've saved a lot of drama.
I tried to talk to him this morning. He just can't see my point of view. He can't see that he did anything wrong. It's like just out of nowhere I threaten to call 911 & throw his keys and that's all that happened last night. Like it happened in a vaccuum. I was very calm and told him that I think what we have been doing so far is best for the kids & I would like for it to continue, but I'm not going to be berated in my home & I don't want him coming over any time of night. So he said then he'll have to come get all of his stuff then, as if this was something I would want to avoid. Which was fine by me. He then hung up on me.
There really is just no getting through to him. I told him that I can't make him behave differently, but I wasn't going to tolerate being treated this way and if it meant a more formal & rigid visitation schedule, so be it.
I really do not believe it's in my kids best interests to change the status quo, so that's the only reason why I've allowed this latitude to continue.
I did tell him last night I was changing the locks, which really pissed him off.
I think the better solution would be to put a deadbolt on. I'll have to think this through.
The widower over the road m’d a lovely woman back in 2004. She was D’d with grown kids and they have gone on to have kids of their own. She is very close to her children. Not geographically (a couple of hours drive) but emotionally. They became exceptionally close during the D. B*** couldn’t handle it. He’d been much more relaxed with his own and resented the time Y*** spent with her children and then her grandchildren. They split for a while. He thought that he should be enough and that she would see less and talk less to her kids. She wasn’t going to change. After the best part of a year to-ing and fro-ing, they got back together. I guess they compromised and he accepted. She loves B***, but not more than her children. Just differently. Their relationship is different to that B*** had with his wife and I think he expected her to be, not a replacement exactly, but to view him and have that same kind of comfortable relationship with him as his wife had. Sorry, that was a bit waffly.
Why does she feel “disconnected”? Is it a form of protection for her? I can only surmise that she has this permanent wall up around her. She says she disappoints you and cannot make you happy. Point out to her that this is not her job. Does she disappoint you because she thinks your standards are too high? Or is it just the whole deal of infidelity on her part that makes it so? In which case, she needs to put that behind her – which is not your job either. Your job is to have faith in her abilities to heal herself, not to do the healing. And, likewise, it isn’t her job to make you happy. No one can make someone else happy. Only you can make you happy – she can contribute to your overall happiness, but she cannot make you happy. Happiness can be a self fulfilling prophesy. Believe it and you can be it.
The aspect of touch and intimacy. I assume this would be to do with the above. Protection, fear of intimacy on a physical and emotional level, expectations, the difference between and association of sex with love/affection.
She also, a bit indirectly, admitted that she loved the OM, and that for the most part she did enjoy the sex (duh!).
I perceive the biggest problem is this one of communication. I can’t help thinking that is the real crux of the other problems. Wish I could give you a big hug ats – got a feeling you need it. Esp as I seem to have written stuff that isn’t very helpful. Don’t give up. Your fWW is making progress. So pull yourself out of the hole and join me at the bar for a drink. (((((ats)))))
Allgood – I see you have posted back. I’ve taken ages to say something to ats and the site is soooo slow tonight. He is still behaving like an idiot and probably still hopes that “something” will happen to make it alright. Like you falling, bumping your head, coming too and completely forgetting about his affair, the OW and his past behaviour. I can only see his current behaviour continuing and I think you might have to put some very firm ground rules down. What he is doing is trying to bully you so he can still feel in control. Man’s a total fuckwit. Time he grew up and looked in the mirror. The real one, not the one the OW held up for him.
But vent away! I love a good vent - get that anger out!