What I don't understand, though, and maybe Frank could weigh in on this one, is why am I not NPD? Schizophrenic? Any of the things that he is, and his and my siblings are because of the abuses we suffered? What we went through was bad enough to create a Schizo in my siblings, as well as three molesters and 3 alcoholics. I am none of those.
So what is it in US that makes us not turn out this way? Believe me, I know I'm not "ok" at all, but I'm not NPD or anything like his and my siblings. My gramma always said it was because I was the strong one... but then why am I with an NPD? And if my brother, who was totally spoiled, isn't NPD, but married one....
A person could go nuts trying to figure out the why's of things like this. But it's interesting to me that things worked out like they did. So what made us different from them?
[This message edited by Dawn4 at 7:06 PM, February 6th (Monday)]
But then, with the exception of the alcholicism, so was I but I didn't end up with NPD. But I married one
My X tried Private Investigation (lasted a few months) and was a volunteer Rescue worker.
Everyone would say what a big kind heart he had. He'd listen to their problems and 'counsel' them. I'd think in my head while they were "blah blah blah he's such a kind person blah blah blah" if only they saw the real person.
His teenage son came to live with us for a time. Once he was sick with the flu. Not once did his father enter his sons bedroom to see if he was ok, wanted a drink, a meal, a kind word. For 3 whole days! Not ONCE. After waiting 24 hours for Mr NPD to offer assistance to his son, I had to step in.
And yet he was always going on about how he loves his kids sooooo much.
But that episode showed me I wasn't the only one he treated like crap. In a perverse way it made me feel better knowing it was HIM and not me with the problem.
I've been so traumatised living with an NPD for 10 years I don't want another relationship. I'm happy being single. Even though I can now spot an NPD/PA I would prefer not to take the risk of falling for the charm and promises an NPD.
I also think there isn't enough time left to fix the problem in me that attracted the NPD in the first place.
"Live the best life possible."
So what I summize here is that they are emotionally abused to the point of detaching and hindered emotional development. Combined with the subconscious low self estemm which drives them to over achieving for the Gradiosity.
Any other opinions or anal observations????? Seems pretty clear to me.
Instead of spending millions on research, the experts need to sign onto SI and get the stories and research from all us survivors.....Such a wealth of labratory information here.....
Status: S & D'ing
My pet did the coat-tail thing. BoyO! Did she ever. Never worked a day during our M. But the childhood abuse, *as reported by her*...yep.
Hmmm. M to F NPD difference? I dunno. There's alot of freeloaders on the uhmayzing gurlz on here though, so mebbe not.
Can tanks be fixed with caulk?
I have come to realize that MY mother is a BPD with NPD traits (or is it NPD with BPD traits )and my father had a lot of NPD traits too. Ironically, I am an only child, but not NPD. I empathize TOO much and give people excuses for treating me poorly.
With my first xWH, I did find it helpful to fully examine his hard childhood, etc to finally come to forgive him in my heart. BUT, with current WH, I do try to understand, but that is not going to help me now to detach. I keep making excuses for him and his behaviors. I don't know if he has a "full fledged diagnosis" of NPD, but he has a hell of a lot of traits, enough to cause me mental and emotional duress.
The hardest is the push/pull with the emotions and then the charm and promises and I always seem to get hooked again and again.
Sorry for the ramble.
The hardest is the push/pull with the emotions and then the charm and promises and I always seem to get hooked again and again.
Honest, that may be because of your upbringing - learning to pay more attention to others' needs than your own. It was a good coping mechanism for a child in your situation but you don't need it now.
I actually get along with both MIL and FIL, but not when they're interacting. They are dysfunction personified.
So how did that affect their 4 children?
1. The oldest son is the Golden Boy. Now in his 40s, he continues to get the best stuff from his father. (If his father has one of anything to give away, it goes to Golden Boy.) Golden Boy married a woman very much like me and he follows her lead. They have a very stable family.
2. Next came the only daughter. She is mini-MIL and she married mini-FIL. She is supremely unhappy in her marriage, but will remain married for the rest of her life. Her children seem to be fine... so far.
3 & 4. Mr. STBXNell and his Evil Twin are both f-ed up and I think they feed off of one another. Mr. STBXNell is an entitled dick (NPD)/KISA/self-diagnosed ADHD. But he has me and I am a stabilizing factor, so he also has two lovely little Boyos, a house, etc. Evil Twin divorced his wife after he finished grad school, had several affairs before finally leaving his BW for OW#3 (that I know of), who then took $5K from him and kicked him to the curb. Evil Twin is also NPD/KISA/self-diagnosed ADHD. He has the added benefit of being addicted to illegal substances. They both change jobs every couple of years when they are not made company monarch (or at least treated as if they are) and got lucky in their marriage partners, only to throw the stabilizing forces away for easy gutter trash (who are also Victims... pattern, anyone?). Both also are mentally about 16 years old and could alternately been nicknamed Prince Smarming I and Prince Smarming II.
But other than that, they're great guys. And soon they'll both be on the market! Calling all the single ladies!!!
Frank and JJ, I agree the experts should come and read our stories and learn from us. I also agree that there is a thread of horrible abuse that causes them to shut down emotionally.
Faith2011, I also have one of those that counsels others. He was in school for drug/alcohol counseling when I met him. He majored in psychology. (UGH, he is a great manipulator!) Like you, I took over his daughters because he did nothing with them when they stayed with us. (Spent 4 hours untangling the younger ones rat's nest hair... great job, mom!) I believe she, too, is PD of one kind or another (or several,) and both girls display some less than stellar traits, themselves.
As for ambition, mine has it in spades - but mostly someone else's responsibility. He has the get-rich-quick kind. He wanted to be an inventor, but someone always "beat him to the punch." He wanted to invest in things we couldn't afford that would not necessarily give us a return. Etc. He also coat-tails. Wants ME to provide for us, first by forcing me to put the kids in daycare while I worked at the hospital and he was HOME; then getting me a delivery route twice as hard as his that I only had to work "a few weeks" till he found someone else - after a year I gave him notice I was quitting and did; sue the doc who nearly killed me so we can be rich; and then when I became a soap maker and did great... I had to give it up, and he was angry. He's always angry when GRQ schemes and MY working don't pan out. This week, he's angry that our son claimed us on his taxes (with our permission) and doesn't want to split the money. I'm thinking, "GET A JOB, then it won't be an issue!"
Then there's the "I can do it, so you should, too" attitude. He'll go on and on about how he works hard, even when he's in so much pain! Meaner than a rattlesnake to us when we can't do what he does. Yet, he's in so much pain he can't get a job. When my oldest was getting married a month before his wife was having a baby, WH told him to "take ANY job! You've got a family to provide for!"
Doesn't he hear himself? Do the contradictions ever end?
BTW, Sorry I write so much all the time. This is the only place I can talk, so you guys get to read these epic mini-series posts.
ETA: WHAT is KISA?
[This message edited by SoHurt at 11:49 AM, February 7th (Tuesday)]
"Abuse by Proxy"......wow. When my parents came down from Colo. to visit. FIL showed us a great time. Took us out on the Lake in his big boat (Actually MIL's Boss Owned it). He was very gracious the whole day. My mother liked him but felt wary. On the way home he had to stop and show them his farm (weekend getaway). There were a couple of horses that belonged to his friend and neighbor that pastured on the property. He called one of the horses up and was petting it for several minutes. Then suddenly with no provocation, he doubled up his fist and hit the horse in the face as hard as he could. Ever since then my mother has not liked him. She has always told me what a MEAN man he is. He also used to frequently kick one of my dogs that for some reason liked him. At the farm he would always want to be near FIL. FIL would let him hang around him for hours....even pet him alot. But then suddenly just haul off and kick him.....hard. Yet that dog would always come back to him the next time he came to the farm. (We had neighboring places)
"Abuse by Proxy"......wow. When my parents came down from Colo. to visit. FIL showed us a great time. Took us out on the Lake in his big boat (Actually MIL's Boss Owned it). He was very gracious the whole day. My mother liked him but felt wary. On the way home he had to stop and show them his farm (weekend getaway). There were a couple of horses that belonged to his friend and neighbor that pastured on the property. He called one of the horses up and was petting it for several minutes. Then suddenly with no provocation, he doubled up his fist and hit the horse in the face as hard as he could. Ever since then my mother has not liked him. She has always told me what a MEAN man he is. He also used to frequently kick one of my dogs that for some reason liked him. At the farm he would always want to be near FIL. FIL would let him hang around him for hours....even pet him alot. But then suddenly just haul off and kick him.....hard. Yet that dog would always come back to him the next time he came to the farm. (We had neighboring places but we lived on ours full time). It was kinda a family joke about how bad he treated "Puppy" but Puppy loved him so much. Everyone talked about how Puppy was a glutton for punishment. Many more stories about cruelty to animals.....but you get the drift. I never thought of "abuse by proxy". Am def going to have to look that up now and learn about implications.......Damn the human mind is soooooo complex......but so damned intrigueing!!!
Is there PD that has to do with being tooooo anal lytical. I seem to have stepped it up a few notches since DDay. I have found myself anal lyzing everything....every word every action. Researching, Reading, Inquiring, etc.....Everything to do with the human mind and how people prcess information.....starting to get scary.
KISA is Knight In Shining Armor. It is a syndrome all on it's own. It is a personality trait as well. They stive to be everyone's hero. They love to come to the rescue. They love to solve everyone else's problems. They are often seen as "really great guys". It is predominantly a male thing....but there are female KISA. Easy to manipulate though.....just act like you are in "distress" and they will come running but they often ignore the needs of those close to them in order to help the "new" person of interest. They will spend the rent money in order to help the person they want to impress.....
Your IL family dynamics is very interesting. My anal lytical sid would have a field day working through all the behaviors. They would have to lock me in the rubber room and fit me with the "I Love Me" jacket with the extra long sleeves and prett buckles, after a few weeks of observation. Like me, I'll bet you never took into consideration the family when you decided to marry. It was all about the spouse. We never think about how our lives will be affected by the Spouse's FOO.
I think in the future, I will be checking the "pedigree" before I marry....
My FIL's fav saying is "I may not always be right but I am never wrong". And he believes it... the whole family has had to repeat it out loud...
That is exactly what my FIL did! Punished WH by refusing to visit with him for years when he finally disagreed. Let me tell you, WH learned to mimic that one. WH is never wrong, either. Even when he's wrong, he's right. That's the twist on it. He rarely admits to being wrong, but then when forced to, turns it around into someone else, usually me, being wrong-er, so he's right. It's crazy making in the worst way!
"Abuse by Proxy"..... he doubled up his fist and hit the horse in the face as hard as he could.
WH is like that. He will take out his anger on our pets, much like my stepdad did, and that brings out the mama bear in me. It's a two-pronged attack. He's indirectly hurting me by hurting my animals. And like your animals, Frank, mine go back to him, repeatedly.
I wonder how much of my own childhood was taken up by PD's? I've resisted looking at my parents, but now I'm getting curious. Maybe I should wait and do that part later. Don't know if I can handle so much right now.
ETA... thanks for the KISA explanation, Frank. Mine does that, too. That must be why he loves to pick up hitchhikers! Even when the kids were little. One time there was a PD in the backseat, next to our kids! He was armed, and WH didn't have a problem with it.
Also, at "anal lytical." I find myself there. (See paragraph about wanting to figure out my parents.) And pedigree? FU@K THAT!! I'm never marrying again. NE.VER.
[This message edited by SoHurt at 2:35 PM, February 7th (Tuesday)]
After DDay, when I was suicidal, in the midst of the anguish of the A and his refusing NC, the death of my sister, the depression and PTSD issues, etc., all at once, I had these "rages." I actually went so far as to hit WH repeatedly in the chest/upper arms. Not some of my finer moments.
During our argument, he re-wrote history again. He says I did this for months, and left huge bruises. Neither of those is true; it was maybe a month total with about 15-20 incidents tops, although I suppose some bruising may have happened.
But I'd lost 50 pounds in a month on the infidelity diet, and was a size 7. I have never been so small. Ever. I'm 5'3", to begin with. I was so weak, physically, that I could barely walk the 30 feet to the house from the car. I literally was weak as a kitten. I was a total mess - no way was I Wonder Woman. His comment about it was see how remorseful he was? He took that "for months."
Like I said, this is not one of my finer memories. I'm not proud of acting so badly... I'm actually pretty ashamed of it. But how does his reaction to it at the time fit NPD? I'm trying to understand that, and can't seem to wrap my mind around it. Is it possible there was a shred of remorse? Or was it just NPD playacting at remorse?
The other thing that bothers me is that he also told me that night that the reason he walked me up to fOW at the funeral is because he wanted to talk to her. That he wanted to find out more about his friend, and she was closest to him. (BullSH*T!) That my presence made it too uncomfortable for him to ask questions about his friend.
The way I see it, he should first of all have avoided her, simply because she is his fOW. Second, if it was just wanting to talk about his friend, that would have come out naturally. He had no problem simply talking to her about other things, but my presence made it "impossible" to talk about his friend. He was also talking to her when I got back from the bathroom... but not about his friend.
Did he do that to me as punishment? Was that a way of showing me he could do what he wanted, and I just had to deal with it? And what's with the "uncomfortable to talk" crap? He talked just fine. He also said that I was only at the funeral so I could see if he was going to talk to her... so that makes me think it was punishment, since he did, in fact, talk to her.
It drives me crazy. Am I crazy for wanting to even try to understand this crap?
ETA: He also stopped me midsentence - "Put yourself in my shoes..." and said, "I don't WANT to put myself in your shoes!"
[This message edited by SoHurt at 6:18 PM, February 7th (Tuesday)]
I know I've read about what FIL does to his beloved dogs... and he does love those dogs, more than he loves his grandchildren... he even loves our dog more than our kids! But to love something and then beat the heck out of it in front of kids... to me, it seems obvious that it's meant to send a (very effective) message: If you do not please me or do what I want you to do, I will beat you, too. His kids definitely got that message. It was abusive. He is an abusive man.
Yep, the family dynamic is... interesting. I didn't see most of it before we married. We were living more than 1,000 miles away and, like your FIL, mine was always super gracious and smarming (if a braggart and blowhard). I didn't see any of the huge negatives until we had committed to one another and they got more comfortable around me. I did find it odd, though, that when Mr. STBXNell announced that we were engaged, his mother got on the phone and told me how much they loved me! (I remember thinking, and later saying to MR. STBXNell, you don't LOVE me... you don't even KNOW me!) I still don't get it. Though I did recently realize that getting that same reaction from dates is my own personal relationship kryptonite... Mr. STBXNell moved way too fast, just like his mother. So did a couple other BFs who then *poofed* and confused the heck out of me. But I digress. Because that is what I do.
I don't know what to make of that whole exchange, except maybe you weren't acting according to history/his plan so he wasn't able to read his script and instead had to throw gaslighting, blameshifting, defensiveness and lying around willy-nilly in a desperate attempt to make you back down. Or not. I have no idea, really, what the hell these people are thinking most of the time.
Or not. I have no idea, really, what the hell these people are thinking most of the time.
I have no idea, either, most of the time. I'm just glad I'm learning to spot the differences in "truth" he feeds out. After dday, he "couldn't remember" the details of the A he was (I now realize,) still in, but he can "remember" crap that didn't happen 10 years ago just fine. I think lying and gaslighting are the favorite tricks in his armada.
[This message edited by SoHurt at 9:11 PM, February 7th (Tuesday)]
I just spent hours researching "abuse by proxy"....it does actually exist. Aaaaannnnd......it exists in narcississts......but not in the way you describe. I have a friend who is on SI and her STBXH is a classic abuser by proxy. He uses others to intimidate and harrass her. The other version is when they turn people within your own social menu against you.....i.e. My STBXW who did not get along with our daughter, (and my daughter and I were close at the time) suddenly became close with her and turned her against me. My daughter then started doing and saying things to make my life miserable.....she turned on me. That is "abuse by proxy".
So even though it did not fit the meaning you intended....it still exists. Aaaaannndddd.....it exists in my NPD world. It helped explain something that was baffling me for a long time.
So now I would like to "thank you by proxy"
Always glad to spread false information around that helps people despite its raging wrongness.
And I, too, am anal lytical. It took me until your third "anal lytical" to figure out that it wasn't an "autocorrect" thing but actually a pun.
Frank and Nell... you guys are funny! I love the whole abuse by proxy thing, and I forgot to mention that I was on the second or third "anal lytical" before I caught on it was on purpose. DUH. So don't feel bad, Nell. You're not alone on that one. Our Frank is a quick wit.
I'm glad you have an explanation of what happened with your daughter, Frank. AND I'm glad it wasn't a wasted effort searching for the term!
You guys are the greatest.
As far as the official abuse by proxy definition goes, I've seen some of that here, too. My WH gets my kids to think I'm crazy when I've gone into areas he really hates, usually when I prove he's wrong about something he steadfastly believes. That explains a lot for me, too. Kinda pisses me off, but it also kinda relieves some of the anxiety I had about that. It's not my kids, it's him.
When this is all said and done, I'm going to sit each of my kids down with the NPD checklist and show them what's happened, and teach them how to deal with it and see it for what it is. I hope they can learn to cope with his manipulation.
[This message edited by SoHurt at 12:09 PM, February 8th (Wednesday)]
I am so glad that I already know what he will say. Hope is safe where it should be, in my future without the liar and cheat next to me.
Oh, and on top of it, the Karma Express has already picked him up, and its still his way or the highway. Highway to hell that is.