It's been 2 years since dday and I still snoop. I don't think I will ever trust him again. EVER! I'm just brutal I guess. I am a terrible grudge holder. I will usually just get rid of anybody in my life that causes me "bad energy." Yet I am still with the "bad energy." Partly, I'm mad at myself for putting up with all the crap I've put up with through all the years of my M. I keep mulling it around in my head over and over, my mind just won't let go. I've held my family together and my kids tell me that if it wasn't for me, they wouldn't be what they are today. For that I am thankful.
I will keep plugging until the time is right. I have been doing things for me, activities that make me feel good, but it is never good enough.
Just wanted to pop in and tell you all that I'm thinking of you. I can barely keep my head above water these days but the "work" of separating 28 years of life together is exhausting. I joke about having to "put on my big girl panties" but it seems everyday there is another emotional hill to climb. Roller-coaster is moving at lightening speed for me.
Forgive me for not reaching out to everyone right now....I do think of you all the time. You are my rock!
when I told my mom about the s/d - her immediate reaction? She said "You get that from your father's side of the family." She was completely serious.
even though H is trying; the problem is I still think he is "evil."
So, the assignment for the week is: List one positive attribute about your S that brings you joy.
I'll start! My H (uh oh this is harder than I thought )
is the best snuggler and makes me feel safe when he wraps his arms around me.
Anybody else want to join in??
Hugs to the tribe!
[This message edited by forgivenotforget at 8:42 AM, August 23rd (Tuesday)]
m334455, how are you making out as super Mom doing the childcare and the work? Has Mr. m stepped up to help?
Hi nofun, I am sorry that you still do not feel safe, and that you are blaming yourself. We all do what we think is right at the time given the information we have. So, what is the good you are looking for? What will be good enough? Do you have a plan?
Iwam, happy to read you are having some good times too.
...i told him yesterday that when i lash out its because i need to and if he does not want to take it he could leave, but as long as he opts to stay he needs to take it and shut up and god help him when he snaps at me which he has been doin here and there,....
FWW and I talked last night about the coincidence I mentioned in a post yesterday of the potential OM who was on the boards of her last two jobs, and on one where she applied (and now has an interview). It did not really resolve anything new, she still says there is no connection, I still do not believe she is fully honest about A related things, but I do feel better having mentioned it.
We then talked about what occurs when she becomes so depressed. She does not know how to pull herself out. As our IC/MC said, she must be getting something from the behavior (withdrawing, moping, staying up late sleeping in late), but she is not sure what. I think a part of it is her beliefs still that people and events "make" you feel a certain way as opposed to we can control our feelings. We can react differently. For her to take responsibility would be to accept that SHE is responsible for so many things in her life, like of course we all do.
She says that my saying I see us eventually ending in divorce was a wake-up call for her, and she is trying to reconnect. We will see if the actions can be sustained. She is still struggling with things like "be yourself" (who am I, really?), "take action when depressed" (how, I have no energy I am so depressed, and it is all hopeless), "here, let me help you, lean on me" (I do not like accepting help from others, I would rather do things for others, I learned as a child to rely on no one).
My own issue may be why some affectionate touch and kind words from one woman can make such a difference in how I feel.
It is my nature, and my professions, to identify the problems in systems or find the problems that remain after an event. I tend to do this in my M too. The problems are very apparent to me. I am trying to put more focus on the “not problems”.
I trust FWW going forward not to be involved with an OP. She has not been fully open and honest about the past, but she has done the work that another OP would be much less likely, and not a threat at all in the current near term.
She no longer blames me and others for everything wrong in her life. I am sure I still deserve some blame, I can be an asshole at times, but I do not get blasted. FWW does not walk around constantly angry with me.
We understand more about what each other feels than ever before in our M. We have had more intimate conversation, discussion, and arguments in the last 23 months than in the previous 20 years.
FWW has chosen to try to stay with me and work things out, despite having to take ownership of many problems in her life, acknowledging her responsibility in problems we had, abandoning her unhealthy, but familiar, coping mechanisms, outing herself to her daughters, sister, and friends as having been wrong, and living with the reality that there was nothing pleasant or redeeming about her A’s with the OM. Ultimately, she sees me as the only man in her life, ever, to have been good for her.
Of course, this is all so much easier when I am feeling the love from her. I have to remind myself that the deep emotional connection is not really there. She may be working on this, but this is all learned behavior. Her actions precede her true inner feelings.
ETA: I cross-posted with FNF, but I coincidentally did include some of my focus on the positives.
I will add that I love the playful FWW that can dissolve my serious nature, the FWW that cares about and knows how to help the less fortunate in society that have been abused or have other life issues. She is gives a really good back rub and foot massage. She is beautiful, I have always been a little suprised to have someone so attractive as a wife.
[This message edited by atsenaotie at 9:43 AM, August 23rd (Tuesday)]
[This message edited by forgivenotforget at 11:30 AM, August 23rd (Tuesday)]
Hope all is well out there with my cyber buddies.
I felt that quake all the way by me & had to evacuate as my 3 story building was swaying back & forth
Catch y'all another time. Hugs.
and we as BS of LTAs can certainly attest to that..life is often not what we expect it to be......
I have a lot of thoughts on much of what everyone has been posting but not much time...
I do agree with FNF... forgiveness is my goal...
not for my FWH.
Because I do believe that ultimately letting go of the anger, grief, mistrust, all the negative feelings surrounding the LTA...letting go of all of that will lead to healing for all of us....
I do have to say..that even during my vacation in 'paradise' I triggered about the LTA....
so Nofun you are not alone in this or unique...
it takes a really long time to 'get over' an LTA.It just does.........
[This message edited by njgal480 at 9:01 PM, August 23rd (Tuesday)]
My thoughts and prayers go out to everyone.
Strongish and Allgood, I know how hard this time is for you. This transition time is very, very difficult. I kind of liken this time to labor pains. There comes a time called "transition" and the time to actually "push". There is still tremendous pain, but it's different. Somehow the difference is relative and seems to hurt less, but it still hurts and is difficult and tiring. It's the labor of starting your own new life.
It's hard to give up the familiar and what we are used to. I read on another thread that it's like you have an old pair of shoes that you are used to, but they are worn down and broken and lend no support and actually are dangerous for you to wear. But you are used to them. Getting a new pair of shoes that have support may feel odd at first, and actually can hurt for a while, but once the transition is complete, you wonder how you ever put up with the old shoes for so long.
This process is not easy. Not at all. Whatever road you choose to R or S/D, it is a new road.
I guess for me, I'm taking deep breaths before the plunge I know I will eventually have to take. IC and I have been discussing my procrastination, and I know why I have. I wasn't ready. I have a book full of excuses, but my gut told me that I was not ready to take the plunge.
God bless you all. Hugs to all the tribe.
I'm taking deep breaths before the plunge ...
honest, Often, the anticipation is worse than the reality.
I look at it as there will be happier years at the other end when I am in my new life, but at my age a limited number of them. I want to be sure I do not exchange too many of those years where I know that I will be in a better place for these years of uncertainty.
I believe no matter what I do, I will always have feelings that make me insecure. Pull'n myself out of this rabbit hole a leaving it to fate.
As for me labeling my W. Yes, she was evil. Today, I don't see her as evil, just made some horrible mistakes in her life.
Anyway... I will be gone for while. Peace t all.
I keep taking deep breaths in anticipation of taking the plunge, then decide to wait a little and see if taking the plunge is such a good idea. But I've never really left the edge... just unwilling to do what, really, I have to do. There's nowhere else for me to go. It's not safe for me to move farther from the edge. I think I'm finally ready to jump. We have an MC appointment next week. (WH still doesn't think we need it, and wants to go in with "a plan about what we want to talk about." Plan, I gots it covered.) I anticipate many tears and protestations and promises and even some short-term actions done out of desperation, but at the end of it I really don't see WH ever being able to on his own consider me/my needs/my feelings. Which means that if I need or want something, I am the only one who will get it for me. I can ask WH directly to do something, and he is likely to comply as long as he doesn't have to sacrifice much to give it to me. But if something is going on that I don't know about and that is likely to harm me, then I'm screwed. In other words, WH doesn't have my back and he never has. He has reacted well (sometimes) in times of crisis. Otherwise, there's a complacent self-absorbtion about him that I can't stomach any longer. We don't have a partnership. We have a friendship and a history. He loves me, though I'm not sure in what capacity. He wants to be married to me, I think because not being married to me will make life more difficult for him. He says that I'm the love of his life. That may be true but it feels more like the phrase he has chosen to fit this situation.
Anyway, couldn't get in to see MC until next week, so I'm just trying to get my thoughts corralled and think through all our options, etc. Fun fun fun.
There was an earthquake in rural southern Colorado/northern New Mexico a few hours before the East Coast earthquake. Another end of the world? For cryin' out loud. We just had one of those.
EMDR has really helped me get rid of the anger. It's so simple, it surprises me that the process has affected me so much! It's brought me quite a bit of peace. I'm going to be the tryn of EMDR now that I've gotten tired of preaching the 180.
Thinking of you, honey. Hang in there and try to stay centered. And if you throw up, lean out of the car and try to keep your hair out of the way.
Evil vs. not evil:
I don't think that WH is evil. I've come to accept that he is who he is, that he has needs that I can't meet, that he has limitations that won't allow him to meet my needs. I do think that he would cheat again given the right circumstances. Because he hasn't done the work to make sure that won't happen again. His reasons for not cheating again (as of last month) are (1) I would be afraid of AIDS... uh, yeah, a fear so large that it allowed him to bang someone who had never been tested for anything without protection for two years and (2) I wouldn't want to hurt you... again, hurting me wasn't even a problem when you were watching me literally unable to function because of what you had done... just kept right on doing it. Also, he lies.
She says that my saying I see us eventually ending in divorce was a wake-up call for her, and she is trying to reconnect. We will see if the actions can be sustained.
Yay, how romantic. Just how I always pictured my life.
Sorry about being Debby Downer. Honest feelings, though.
How did your children do with the earthquake? I hope there weren't a lot of nightmares or waking up last night.
Hugs all around.
ETA: I knew I would forget to do a shout out to Laura and Miracle! Hope the busy lives are good.
[This message edited by ImNellNow at 9:43 AM, August 24th (Wednesday)]
How long do you wait? Years?
If things do not begin to improve again, I believe we are down to months, less than a year. I have issues to resolve before D is a possibility. I was clear in our last MC session that I am fixing the financial/logistic things I can to prepare for future change. I am not working on the M.
She is unemployed and has no income or benefits right now.
Selling the boat will eliminate some expenses, and provide a cash reserve to get DS18 through college. It is listed now, no bites so far.
Despite a 20% down payment, we owe >2x what our house is worth. In FL, bankruptcy does not clear a secured debt; they can get a judgment for the balance. I am trying to work out a controlled foreclosure with attorney.
I may have new job 2-3 hours away, or may be here. Whatever the future, the house payment is bleeding us dry with her un/under employed.
While I work these things out it is easier to stay together. I am working on these issues. Even a big judgment to be paid off over 10 years would let me plan for the future.
If I move to a new location for a new job, I do not think it makes sense the way we are now for her to move with me. I have told her it might make sense for her to remain where we are now (she hates this city) or go back to the city we lived in prior to this, and where DS18 is going to school.
She has not answered the question I asked her over the weekend: is she going to learn to open up and intimately connect with me, or does she want me to stay with her knowing that connection does not exist. She said it was a good question.
This week she is caught up in her DD's wedding. Next week she has surgery, and then 2-4 weeks of recover.
Time keeps on slipping, slipping, slipping, into the future...
honest, Often, the anticipation is worse than the reality
I thought this too, Ats, but my gut was telling me something else, and I am right. I never fully explored who NPD was. I saw him in action with a lot of other people, and wasn't ready to deal with his anger and retaliations. I had to get stronger and heal from years of NPD abuse.
We don't have a partnership. We have a friendship and a history. He loves me, though I'm not sure in what capacity.
I truly understand what you are feeling. I've felt this deep down for years, although NPD's words always said I was the love of his life, blah blah blah. I know you are at the edge. It is good that you are going to give MC another try. You will know you have done everything you could. Then you have to try to sit back and look at the whole situation the best you can. Look at your relationship NOW. If you feel you are making headway with MC, then keep going. If you feel that WH will not change, but you are comfortable with the status quo, that's ok too. You have to decide what is best for you.
Tryn: I hope you have some peaceful days and quiet time. Don't resign yourself to the thought that "I promised to trust WW, and that's it" Verify if it will make you feel better. This is the consequences of her actions. You are NOT betraying her trust by checking once in a while. Heck, we trust our kids, but we still check in on them, just to be sure.
M3: I'm sorry about the betrayal of your nanny. I went through the same thing overseas with ours. She knew everything that was going on with OW and OC's and helped cover up for WH for years and years. I thought she was a friend.
Some people are just out for themselves with no thought of others.
NPD is after me again about going overseas to visit...just me..... Geez. Now, I'm looking at it in a different way. WHY? I know he says that it will save him travelling, but I know there is more. I guess it will make him look good to everyone overseas and that I accept the situation.
Hell, all I wanted was to be loved.
He wants you to come over without the boys? Did I get that wrong?
I am reserving comment until I get that straightened out.
But, big hug, yes, you wanted so little & still didn't get it. BTDT. I don't think you should internalize this like you are unlovable or without value or something like that, because clearly that is not the case. He did love you, maybe to the best of his ability or maybe to a lesser extent or something in between that changed over time, but the bottom line is that he did love you, just not in the way you deserved.
And, thanks for your analysis about labor pains - that was really spot on.
Go punch something. Get it out.
After engaging in LTAs etc. she should be a blubbering mess..thank you for the gift of forgiveness that you have given her by reconciling.
Instead...she's hemming and hawing....
So sorry to read about your financial difficulties...but hopefully, if you get this new job it could be the beginning of helping things...once you have a plan in place ...all you can do after that is take one day at a time...
Nell- I'm glad that you are going to MC. I would actually suggest that you try to book a double session with the MC. One hour or 45 min. etc. is just not long enough when you have such huge issues to explore.
It'll be time to leave before you even get to the crux of the matter.
My advice to you also would be that you need to be very, very specific about what you need from your husband.
He sounds like someone who really needs to have it all spelled out.
Tell him that you are seriously thinking about divorce/separation etc. if he does not step up to the plate and do...XYZ.
Tell him exactly what he would need to do for you to feel safe in the marriage again.
If you need him to go to IC once a week for the next 6 months...tell him. If you need him to also go to MC with you for the next 6 months-tell him.
If you want him to change his job or his friends or his hobbies or his habits..whatever it is....tell him in no uncertain terms.
Lay out everything so he understands where your head is at right now and so that he knows exactly what you need from him.Then let him think it over and tell you if he can meet these needs.
Make sure he understands that these are dealbreakers for you.
But also make sure that you do not make idle threats-if you say that he needs to change this or that or else you will ask him to leave ..well then you have to be prepared to follow through.
Doing this in a marathon MC session is a good idea because he cannot walk out of the room, blame shift, get distracted etc.
And same for you..the MC will hopefully keep the two of you focused on the topic-and that is can this marriage be saved?
I believe that it is possible...that your FWH may have a light bulb moment and realize that he does not want to lose you, his family etc. over stupid issues like pride, stubborness, etc.
Honest- I am keeping you in my prayers.
So sorry that you have to go through this.
Life is hard that way ... I used to think that being a good person was enough.
But, as we grow older we do realize that bad things do happen to good people.
But... I do believe that you will find happiness and peace and success without your STBX-NPD-WH!!
You deserve only the best!
And..about the NPD's totally insensitive and inappropriate invitation for you to go overseas with him....
Does he want you to meet the OW and the OCs? So you could all be one big happy family?
He is in his own world.....
Stay strong...you are sounding like you are getting stronger every day.
Tryin- Sorry about your fall down the rabbit hole. Still happens to me and I am over 4 yrs post d-day.
You just have to climb back out again and remind yourself..that was then..this is now.....
and verifying is not such a bad idea....
I did a lot of checking for many years post d-day.
Still check FWH's email every once in awhile etc.
I think I'm done.
tomorrow is family therapy and seemingly just in time....
yesterday we were in an amusement park and we had let them go off on their own being that they are older teens and in the car going home manchild informs us how he was hit on by 2 girls....
pfm had the biggest smile...he is proud that his son is becomming "hot" to girls....the girl actually approached him and told him he was really "hot"..... ...i am proud, sort of, amazed at the forwardness of girls these days and then of course worried that my son may be too much like pfm once again...
ive got to stop that, those comparisons....i cant seem to get away from it at times....
we ended up having a good time, a few times in between that were awkward and quite argumentative...but all in all it was a good mini vaca....the kids had a great time though and thats the important thing...we had a good time as a family....
we were in pennsylvania and did not feel the earthquake or even know about it til we got home and my mom told me how my house shook.. ....thankfully no damage, just a little scary moment for my mom and her friend who stayed with her at my house while we were away....
tryn...have a good vacation...and one thing hit me as we were driving home so i hope you read this when you come back..
when you were walking about ur wife and calling her "evil" and you said you never did much and then listed the few offenses you had, one of the was quite a serious one, one that could have been different..you drove drunk...something that could have killed you or someone else...you were very luck as was anyone else on the road with you...had it turned out different you would have felt like you "were" evil too.....especially since driving and drinking is a conscious choice, a choice that could end up with serious repercussions.....
thats all i wanted to say...i was thinking about it last nite on the long drive home...i pray to my angels everytime i get into a car to keep me and mine safe and thats when the thoughts came into my mind of what you wrote....
strong...good to hear from you and busy could be good, especially when the mind needs to be so
honest..good to hear from you
fun....you do what you gotta do for you...ALWAYS
ats: i feel sorry for mrs ats and so mad at her too....she really is trying and at the same time there are things we all know and she knows she should be doin and she doesnt....choices that she makes that are just wrong....
nell: when i read what njgal wrote to you all i kept saying was she did, she did..she did lay it all out for him and he just refuses to do what hes gotta do....he starts and never finishes a blessed thing....and you deserve to be loved better then that, that is not being loved in the truest sense of the word and i am so sorry....
define why you stay...it may help you if you do opt to stay...put a label on it that you could live with....
like you are staying because this is what you choose to do for now, to raise your boyos, to live comfortably and you said you were friends...and friends with benefits can be good....and have no expectations of him as a husband, the way a husband should be....
allgood: glad you finally got the word out...
fnf: you posess compassion for your ws and that is wonderful, i have yet to get to that point, and dont think i will as long as we cohabitate....
need to go, my niece will by shortly to spend a little time with us b4 she goes off to college...
I love NJgal's advice and I agree 100%. This is a last try. I can see you are exasperated, and done, but this last expediture will be worth it. You will know in the end that you explored every avenue and have done everything you could to save the M.
I'm starting to come to the conclusion that there are many stages to our healing with a LTA that are similar to a "regular" BS's healing, but possibly a little different.
We go through the tramatic stage of discovery and depending on our WS's response as to TT, gaslighting, etc this stage can be prolonged or we can go forward and then back to square one with a new DDay or discovery with TT or whatever.
I believe many of us did whatever we could to save our marriages. For a lot of us that was the priority no matter what. Depending on our WS's response and efforts made a big difference in the R process.
But there comes a time when the BS is starting to heal and starts to look at the reality, the full reality of the A, before dday and after. How the WS is acting, etc. We start to really SEE.
THis is the hard part. I think a lot of us are realizing that although we love our WS's, we have to decide if we are going forward. Is this what we really want. and most importantly:
WHAT IS THE REALITY????
Not want we want it to be, or hope that it will become. What is it now? Are the spouses on the road to R and working together and therefore a hope for the future to be built together? Just like when we are first married, we feel we can still build a future TOGETHER. There is a lot of work involved, yes, but if both spouses are working toward a future, committed to working together, then a new marriage can be made.
THE OLD MARRIAGE IS OVER.
There are a lot of decisions to be made, but the major thing I'm finding out is that we need to rediscover ourselves and what we've become after this trauma. We have changed. Be kind to ourselves.
The one thing that I have read that is really helping me is from "Codependent No More": Shirly Glass quotes one of Jesus' words about the two greatest commandments: the second"Love your neighbor as yourself". She put it in a new perspective. God wants you to love yourself, not more than others, not less. There must be a balance, and for a codependent like me, this is huge.
Find your balance. Love yourself as much as you love your WS. What is the best thing for you? If you are unhappy, ultimately, your WS and family will be unhappy. There is no quick fix.
This is a process and a lot to decide and to go through. We cannot rush this.
Allgood: Yes, NPD wants ME to go overseas. WHY? Who the hell knows. He probably would want me to meet the OC's. I guess to him, if I went over there it would seem to everyone that I accept the sitch. Geez.
Anyway, today was my birthday, and WH calls me telling me why didn't I remind him that it was my birthday, how forgetful he is and that he forgets his own birthday. anyone married to him should know that he would need to be reminded. WTF?????? I was getting annoyed and angry and then he's upset that I'm upset and says I'm talking mean. NPD behavior???? Turn it around and blame it on me...Typical idiot shit, He hits me, I complain and then he points the finger at me at how I'm talking to him!!! Sounds just like my mother!!! She would keep pushing buttons until I would react and then she would say, "Look how you are talking to your mother!!! You are being disrepectful!!!" Sadly, this is true.
Sorry for the mini rant.
On the other hand, I probably had the best birthday I've ever remembered. My crazy neighbor baked a cake and took my 13 year old shopping to get a present for me. Crazy stuff like hot pink flip flops, but I didn't care!! All my DS's remembered and got a little something and had cake and ice cream for me.
It wasn't the gifts, but that people remembered. Even DS 13's little 11 year old friend bought me a little gift and a card that said I was like a second mother to him and thank you for every thing.
I felt very very blessed today.
I feel very blessed with all of you as my friends. I love you all. Thank you.
The phone call from your NPD STBX....WTF! he's mad at you for not reminding him about your birthday! He is a nutcase.