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I Can Relate     Print Topic    
User Topic: Long Term Affair - Part 26
deeppurple
♂ Member
Member # 28757
Default  Posted: 6:20 PM, August 7th (Sunday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Mondays desk calendar quote - very appropraite for some of our Waywards...

The real fault is to have faults & not amend them.
Confucius


Me - BS 49
Her - WS 43
Married 16 yrs (together 17 yrs)
DD13 DS10 DS8 DS6
DDay 1 6.4.2010 dday 2 7.25.2010
Heading for divorce.
"Never look down on someone unless you are helping them up"

Posts: 522 | Registered: Jun 2010 | From: Where the sun is shining & the surf is pumping
vulnerable
♀ New Member
Member # 32658
Default  Posted: 6:20 PM, August 7th (Sunday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

iwantamiracle, thank you for your advice. So, do you think that if he's broken NC, that R can never happen? I know that if it keeps happening I would be an idiot to stay.


Me: 26 BS
Him: 26 WS
Dday: 21/06/11

Posts: 38 | Registered: Jul 2011 | From: UK
iwantamiracle
♀ Member
Member # 22812
Default  Posted: 6:26 PM, August 7th (Sunday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

well let me put it to you this way...is there room in your marriage for her...???


anyone can stay in any relationship...what you would need to decide is why you are staying...and if you are staying or would like to stay because you want a relationship that brings you happiness and peace...then breaking nc will never give that to you...

this is not something to try but something to do...called a dealbreaker...

only you can decide what your dealbreakers are, and honestly make sure that when you say it you mean it....any person who does not have consequence will continue the behavior, they really have no reason not too...and if that means it is the end of your relationship..make sure you mean it...


i am taking my life back, one step at a time!!!!!

Posts: 5994 | Registered: Feb 2009 | From: looking for my rainbow
atsenaotie
♂ Member
Member # 27650
Default  Posted: 6:28 PM, August 7th (Sunday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Hi Vulnerable, sorry you have had a rough couple of weeks, but as close as you are to your dday, it is expected.

Breaking NC is a huge issue for many BSs. I know for me it was one for sure. By breaking NC when there is a fight or he is feeling stress it shows that he is still looking to the OW for affirmation, for outside stimulus to feel better about himself. This all started pretty early into your M, at a time with no children. For many couples this is the best their M ever is, and yet he felt the need for attention from the OP. To me this indicates a possibility of issues with intimacy and commitment. Whatever the reason, identifying why he was drawn to the OP is what he should focus on with the Pastor and the books he is reading.

On the other hand he really has been trying so hard...

He has been trying so hard for just a few weeks. Recovering from an A will require trying hard for years on his part.

What are you boundaries for R and staying with him? How many NC violations does he get? What if he stops reading or working on his issues? Now is the time to start to identify your requirements for staying in the M. This is also a good time to get your financial and other ducks in a row, just in case he crosses you boundaries in the future.

((vulnerable))

allgoodnamesgone, I was a single man with no kids who married a women with children. I never intended to marry someone with children, but once we were dating I (thought I) fell in love. We met as a blind date set up by mutual friends. I liked her from the first date, and did not want to stop "dating" just because she children. I thought it would be casual, fun dating.

While this is jumping the gun for you, when you do find someone you may be serious with there should be a lot of time prior to engagement or M with the kids along on “dates” or activities. This is a mistake we made. Second mistake is to just presume family counseling is needed. FWW was a social worker, I had been a teacher, and we thought we could figure it out. While there were other issues involved too, some FC would have helped keep open dialog going. FWIW, we found her xH became much more interested in visitation and getting his “fair share” of time once we were M.

--Ats


LTA BS 53
FWW 60
M 1990, dday 10-5-09
Reconciled

Posts: 3968 | Registered: Feb 2010 | From: FL
vulnerable
♀ New Member
Member # 32658
Default  Posted: 6:38 PM, August 7th (Sunday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Of course, I can only say no. of course I don't want R with someone who doesn't love me completely and exclusively. I know he's a mess. And I know if we have any hope of a future he needs to sort himself out.. if he says he wants me and only me, he needs to show me.

I guess the problem is, where's the line. I don't know what my dealbreakers are. But I guess every time something happens, my mind starts to accept more that if something doesn't change, I would be an idiot to stay.

In terms of preparing for D, I can't even comprehend what I'd need to do right now.


Me: 26 BS
Him: 26 WS
Dday: 21/06/11

Posts: 38 | Registered: Jul 2011 | From: UK
Allgoodnamesgone
♀ Member
Member # 26157
Default  Posted: 7:27 PM, August 7th (Sunday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Ats - thanks for the insight, tho you are correct that is far, far from my thoughts as far as having my kids anywhere near someone I'm dating.

But, I'm pretty aware of my schedule and what free time there is & I just can't see there being enough free time in my schedule to keep up with a single person's availability.

Another single guy, that I've been messaging with for the past few days just ask to meet me. This scares the crap out of me in a stranger/danger kinda way...
O boy. This is gonna be a long, long road.
Lol


Me- BS
DDay- 8/26/09
Separated after failed R effort.

Posts: 2165 | Registered: Nov 2009
njgal480
♀ Member
Member # 24938
Default  Posted: 9:26 PM, August 7th (Sunday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

allgood-
Just make sure that you meet in a very public place and take things slow....
no sexting! LOL


Me- BS
Him- WH
Long term marriage
D-day- Jan. 2007
5 yr. LTA
Reconciled.


Posts: 3139 | Registered: Jul 2009 | From: NJ
honesttoafault
♀ Member
Member # 27105
Default  Posted: 10:17 PM, August 7th (Sunday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Vulnerable: Welcome to our corner of SI. The one boundary that you must have is NC. It's up to you to decide if you will give him one more chance. If he is going to run to OW every time you have a fight, R will not work.

Miracle: You cannot analyze stupidity.
The only thing I can suggest for you is to let go of all expectations for pfm. I know you were expecting at least some semi-normal parenting skills at least, but it seems that he is not capable of it. Try your best to not take any of his stupidity personally. I really don't believe he is doing it on purpose to drive you crazy, although it does. Step back as much as you can, and just shake your head when he does stupid. It's very, very hard, I know. I was finally able to do it for an instant last night when WH and I got into a stupid argument. So much advice that I heard here, from you, on other forums and IC was resounding in my head. Someone on the NPD forum had posted about trying to step back and observe their behavior as if you are looking at a bug under the microscope and see the reality. To just observe, without getting upset and realizing there is nothing that can be done about it.
Yes, we can lead the horse to water/food and encourage it to eat. But if there is something wrong with the horse, you cannot make it do so.


Posts: 1903 | Registered: Jan 2010
honesttoafault
♀ Member
Member # 27105
Default  Posted: 10:17 PM, August 7th (Sunday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Vulnerable: Welcome to our corner of SI. The one boundary that you must have is NC. It's up to you to decide if you will give him one more chance. If he is going to run to OW every time you have a fight, R will not work.

Miracle: You cannot analyze stupidity.
The only thing I can suggest for you is to let go of all expectations for pfm. I know you were expecting at least some semi-normal parenting skills at least, but it seems that he is not capable of it. Try your best to not take any of his stupidity personally. I really don't believe he is doing it on purpose to drive you crazy, although it does. Step back as much as you can, and just shake your head when he does stupid. It's very, very hard, I know. I was finally able to do it for an instant last night when WH and I got into a stupid argument. So much advice that I heard here, from you, on other forums and IC was resounding in my head. Someone on the NPD forum had posted about trying to step back and observe their behavior as if you are looking at a bug under the microscope and see the reality. To just observe, without getting upset and realizing there is nothing that can be done about it.
Yes, we can lead the horse to water/food and encourage it to eat. But if there is something wrong with the horse, you cannot make it do so.


Posts: 1903 | Registered: Jan 2010
iwantamiracle
♀ Member
Member # 22812
Default  Posted: 10:17 PM, August 7th (Sunday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

vulnerable:

I guess the problem is, where's the line. I don't know what my dealbreakers are. But I guess every time something happens, my mind starts to accept more that if something doesn't change, I would be an idiot to stay.

if you dont know where the line is its time to learn...there are certain behaviors that you know are absolute dealbreakers..for instance if he hits you...would you stay or would that be a dealbreaker....

some are a bit harder....but then again not really...we try to rationalize what we cannot accept, we try to rationalize the very thing we know we cannot and we try to rationalize that which we dont want to face.....

basically if we could find a reason, explain it away so that we dont have to face the naked truth....just the rationalized truth persay...


ok...what you need to do is make a list of all posssible dealbreakers....lets put nc on the very top....

for each one, look at it in the near future and the far future....would this dealbreaker really be one, one that you could live with making the decision for in the future....

what are you willing to live with, and what kind of marriage do you truly want and more importantly NEED for happiness...

you should have alist of requirements...these are not choices but required...and those are your dealbreakers...

and then you have a list of "it would be nice"..meaning that these things are not mandatory but would help in you quest for a happy relationship...

so where would nc be...on the mandatory list of dealbreakers or on the its not really necessary list..

and idiots dont think things completely through...they react as opposed to weighing all the possibilities..so please do not refer to yourself as an idiot...this is not picking out a movie of the week this is your marriage and you are in a place of pain, raw emotion and basically not really a good place to make permament decisions...with exception to dealbreakers....you know what they are..the question then becomes are you ready to deal with them head on....and there is nothing wrong if you are not ready....nothing at all...just for your own peace of mind...dont take too long if it really is a dealbreaker...the rest of the stuff you take as long as you need...


(((vulnerable)))


allgood: i agree..public place only...and probably a lunch date so you could leave if he is a dud...if he is not a dud...agree to meet again later on for dinner...


i am taking my life back, one step at a time!!!!!

Posts: 5994 | Registered: Feb 2009 | From: looking for my rainbow
iwantamiracle
♀ Member
Member # 22812
Default  Posted: 10:26 PM, August 7th (Sunday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

hey honest...we cross posted...

thanks for your input...and i DO shake my head....

and i do occasionally fall back into old patterns....and i engage....and i always leave the conversations shaking my head.. ...telling myself why did i bother...

and i always answer...because he is the father of my kids and i still would like him to be the best father he could be...period...

and yes i know its not my job to teach him how to do that, its not my place to do that either.....and more often then not i remember that....the man truly gives way way too many openings for one to step into...so i disengage quite more then i engage...so i am getting better..but like i tell pfm all the time...trying is not doing...he is still a liar and i still engage in trying to make him a better person, or more accurately make him fit into my expectation of what i believe he should be....

yes honest...i have to let go of all expectations...workin on it....really workin on it..


eta: the one thing i refuse to let go of is his stepping on my toes...repeatedly...like i go walking..he has now taken up walking..to the same place i do....so exasperating...i feel sometimes like i have no escape...i told him find a new place...so he tonite he came up with asking me if i was goin, if not could he....of course still go to the same place that is my territory...i feel like a fucking dog marking my territory...i just want a place where he has no part...i do have the gym...but honestly i want my walking places too....

i will bank the circumstances for the next time he makes one of his blanket statements where he feels like he is not being respected or his requests being respected....so often, too often he seems to think he has the market on what should be done for him and not for others..do as i say and not as i do....

so basically...he wants his requests answered with yeses and respect and when the shoe is on the other foot...he does what he wants to do..always has and always will....

done complaining...for now anways...

[This message edited by iwantamiracle at 10:33 PM, August 7th (Sunday)]


i am taking my life back, one step at a time!!!!!

Posts: 5994 | Registered: Feb 2009 | From: looking for my rainbow
honesttoafault
♀ Member
Member # 27105
Default  Posted: 10:31 PM, August 7th (Sunday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Vulnerable: Welcome to our corner of SI. The one boundary that you must have is NC. It's up to you to decide if you will give him one more chance. If he is going to run to OW every time you have a fight, R will not work.

Allgood: Wow, what an idiot!! I do understand being afraid to meet in person. It's scary. Go slow. You are in charge. We are so used to being part of a couple, that we automatically might go into that mode to compromise, etc. If there is something you are uncomfortable doing, then do NOT do it and that includes whether or not you are ready to meet anyone in person or not. I was scared to death to go out to coffee with that guy I met. Luckily it was unfounded, but I realized I was far from ready to start dating in general. Right now, you are having fun, getting to know people and if that is all you want right now, then stick to it.

Strongish: thank you for your advice and your humor!! The only difference is that WH doesn't vaporize things, but gives enough to keep the victim alive while sucking the life out of them, like the machines do to the humans in the Matrix.

WH is leaving Tues. Thank God. He is from another planet. I am really trying to step back and looking at him as objectively as possible, and trying to see him for all that he is. The blameshifting he was trying when we had the stupid argument in the car was absolutely amazing. Geez!!

Miracle: You cannot analyze stupidity.
The only thing I can suggest for you is to let go of all expectations for pfm. I know you were expecting at least some semi-normal parenting skills at least, but it seems that he is not capable of it. Try your best to not take any of his stupidity personally. I really don't believe he is doing it on purpose to drive you crazy, although it does. Step back as much as you can, and just shake your head when he does stupid. It's very, very hard, I know. I was finally able to do it for an instant last night when WH and I got into a stupid argument. So much advice that I heard here, from you, on other forums and IC was resounding in my head. Someone on the NPD forum had posted about trying to step back and observe their behavior as if you are looking at a bug under the microscope and see the reality. To just observe, without getting upset and realizing there is nothing that can be done about it.
Yes, we can lead the horse to water/food and encourage it to eat. But if there is something wrong with the horse, you cannot make it do so.


Posts: 1903 | Registered: Jan 2010
strongish
♀ Member
Member # 29259
Default  Posted: 10:46 PM, August 7th (Sunday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

do as i say and not as i do....
Miracle - I don't think pfm has cornered the market on this one. How many of our WS's would be livid if they had been betrayed as we have been. Just a few weeks ago FWH was complaining that I wasn't giving him a "fair shake." In other words, I wasn't giving him enough credit for the things that he's doing. He conveniently forgets that just in staying in this M for the past year is way, way more than he deserves.

BTW - congrats on going back to school! You're gonna rock!!


Posts: 490 | Registered: Aug 2010 | From: Texas
iwantamiracle
♀ Member
Member # 22812
Default  Posted: 10:48 PM, August 7th (Sunday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage



3rd try


my daughter made this cake the other day for one of our little people...my friend helped her with the fondant add ons like the license plate....i hope this works...

eta:

it worked...took 2 tries...dont know how to make it bigger though...the cake totally rocked...i am one proud mom


and thanks strong....i know most of our ws's have way too many stupid ________(fill in the blank with anything, it all works) in common...




3rd try

[This message edited by iwantamiracle at 10:58 PM, August 7th (Sunday)]


i am taking my life back, one step at a time!!!!!

Posts: 5994 | Registered: Feb 2009 | From: looking for my rainbow
vulnerable
♀ New Member
Member # 32658
Default  Posted: 1:44 AM, August 8th (Monday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Thank you everyone for your insight. In terms of what I can live with in our marriage, of course NC is a must. I guess the question is, is it ok to give him another chance in the knowledge that if it doesn't stop I have to leave?

I talked to him last night... told him I didn't want to, but that if something didn't change and he kept contacting her, we would have to separate. I know it's not really strong enough, but it's all I had the strength to do right now.

Thank you everyone for your time once again.

[This message edited by vulnerable at 1:45 AM, August 8th (Monday)]


Me: 26 BS
Him: 26 WS
Dday: 21/06/11

Posts: 38 | Registered: Jul 2011 | From: UK
strongish
♀ Member
Member # 29259
Default  Posted: 6:21 AM, August 8th (Monday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

vulnerable - there is no timetable. You control when/where/how/what/why. I understand about not trusting your own decision-making. I think that's a common feeling among BS's. FWIW, I think what you said makes perfect sense.

I have thought/rethought/analyzed my decisions. I run them by my IC, family, friends to make sure that I'm making sense. I have learned over the course of my life to make decisions based on fact only. I would not allow myself to let emotion have a part in the process. I am now convinced that you have to acknowledge and honor the emotion/heart part of the equation as well as the fact/head part of decision-making.

You're doing just fine. Give yourself a break. Take care of yourself...make yourself eat, try and sleep whenever you can, exercise, get out into the sunshine and use your support system. {{{vulnerable}}}

Miracle - LOVE the cake! It maust have taken so long to do all the details! I bet the little ones loved it!


Posts: 490 | Registered: Aug 2010 | From: Texas
Laura28
♀ Member
Member # 28997
Default  Posted: 6:54 AM, August 8th (Monday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Honest

WH is leaving Tues. Thank God.

YES, YES, YES!!!!

It is almost Tuesday in Aussie land. I do wish him God's speed!!!

Miracle

LOVE the cake. So clever.

V

So sorry honey. Miracle and others have given you great advice. For me NC is the top of the list. FWH knows if I find out he has contacted any of them we are done!

Strong

How many of our WS's would be livid if they had been betrayed as we have been.

Wow. Never really thought about this. FWH would have had a huge tantrum. Cannot begin to describe the fireworks!!! Trouble is he would have been angry his territory had been invaded. Not sure how "hurt" he would have been.

He conveniently forgets that just in staying in this M for the past year is way, way more than he deserves.

Yes. More chords here although he is learning better!!

ats

How are you?

DP

Good luck and yes your quote is VERY apt.

Hi to everyone else and BIG HUGS and love to all

Laura


Married 30yrs Me BW 57Yrs Him FWH 59yrs
OWzero 1988 EA?/PA? Gaslighted.
Dday May 28 2010.
OW1 1994(6mths PA, EA til dday).
OW2 2002(8yrs PA).
OW3 2009(1Yr PA).
Others???? Status: Not Divorcing..but.."You can't unfuck the goat"

Posts: 2729 | Registered: Jul 2010 | From: Australia
Allgoodnamesgone
♀ Member
Member # 26157
Default  Posted: 6:57 AM, August 8th (Monday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Miracle: awesome cake! And, Congrats on going back to school. That is awesome news! I'm sooo happy for you.

Vulnerable: I too had a hard time with dealbreakers. Now, immediately upon discovering his A, I had a pretty good handle on what they were, but as he started to cross those boundaries, I found I wasn't able to back it up. I did find myself on at least 3 occasions telling him it's over, it's a dealbreaker following a NC violation, continued lying, etc. then not having the heart/strength or whatever to back it up.
My advice for you is as follows:
Outline what your expectations are & why they are important to you.
Should he step on a boundary, avoid saying anything other than "I have to think about this. I will let you know when I'm ready to discuss this." This way you can really, really sort this out. For more serious transgressions, this might even include what is going to change while you think about it, such as you don't want to spend any time with him until you have reached a decison.

I understand giving someone a chance. I understand that horrendous habits take a long time to correct. So, give it enough time for you to be satisfied that you have provided enough opportunity for change & that it's not going to be happening.

((Vulnerable))


Me- BS
DDay- 8/26/09
Separated after failed R effort.

Posts: 2165 | Registered: Nov 2009
atsenaotie
♂ Member
Member # 27650
Default  Posted: 8:33 AM, August 8th (Monday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

We had MC last Friday morning, and as a result of that session it is clear to me that my issues are in the present. By and large, I am over with the A-Crap with one exception. I told her that I am not yet ready to forgive the lying and TT after dday. To this day, she has controlled what and how much I know. All of the other A-Crap, there is nothing she can do about it, but she still can be open and honest. MC interjected that he thought she could not reveal more, that emotionally she was not able to. (I think this is what he said and meant, tempers were running a bit hot at this point). At the end she was back to bringing up all of her old weapons: I hated her kids when we got married, everything is always about me and I always get my way, I am using her A as a shield to keep from dealing with my serious issues in the M, we are just hopeless.

At the end he gave us a task for the week of remembering happy times from the M and sharing them with each other. One would think that in a 21 year M there would be plenty of happy little moments to reflect back onto. After thinking about it for a few days, there are not so many. There were times I was happy, and times she was happy, but few together. From a very early point in our M we began to lead separate lives. Our first two vacations together were disasters, so we just did not travel together. She was nervous having me around her family, and nervous around mine, so we visited with family separately. This one still persists. Soon after we M'd, she went back to school to earn a Masters. This kept her busy, so I found hobbies/activities for me. Even things I thought I was enjoying with her, I know now she was not enjoying, or resented, but did them because she thought she had to “make me happy”.

We did not talk for all of Friday and Saturday, she was withdrawn. She said she was not angry with me, or she was angry with me, but that the anger was because of her shame. When we started to talk on Sunday, she said her shame over the A’s and everything she has done is becoming debilitating. I can see that she recognizes when she is not responding to stress or strong emotions in a healthy way, but that she still has to ride through the process until she can get under control again. I told her that when she is gone or withdrawn, like being out of town for a long week and then no talking for two days, I detach, and mentally begin to move on. It is not an anger thing, it is just moving on with my life. Every time this happens, the path I end up on is a bit further away from the path FWW is on. I have told her that I worry someday we will find ourselves too far apart to reconnect.

I told the MC the bad is pretty much gone from the M, there is just not much good. She no longer blasts me for things out of built up anger, her withdraws usually last hours to days, not days or weeks. We have a tolerable M, and before dday I think I would have been happy to have what we have now. But she is still angry with me for not being the step-father she wanted for her children, she is nervous and uncomfortable around me, she does not love me, and she is not interested in sex with me.

When we are calm and rational, I can see and understand it all. I see how her mother abused her. I see why she craved male attention. I understand her need for external validation. Certainly I have read enough on SI to understand that A’s occur, and hers were no different than the typical. I know she understands now how her perceptions have been off, not just with me, but others for her whole life. I now see how she has tried to make everyone happy; her parents, her xH, me, her kids, her bosses, her friends. She tried to take care of everyone but herself, and then with the A’s she tried to take care of her needs. For her, the next step is learning to take care of her needs and putting them first. If I choose, this leaves me for quite a while in a relationship where I am going to have to take care of myself. She will not be able to meet my needs until after she has learned to meet her own, and first she has to figure out what her needs are.

Finally, there is a great deal of stress in our lives just now. The LTA aftermath, her IC, MIL died 8 months ago, FIL’s health is only ok, and we are living check to check at this point. No matter what occurs, D, new job for me, or even finding our way back together, I think we need to remove some of the stress. A big way to do this is to get out from under our upside down house. We are paying more than twice per month in mortgage/taxes/insurance as we would pay to rent our current house. Once we get through the next few weeks events (DS back to school, DD wedding) I think we need to bite the bullet and do what is necessary to walk away from the house. We spoke to an attorney about this a little over a year ago, and learned FL is one of the few states where the mortgage holder can come after you for the balance of the loan even if you are foreclosed or walk away from the home. This can keep you in bankruptcy until the balanced is paid off. With that prospect, we thought we might be able to make a go of it, but it is not going well. There are other areas we can lighten our load too. Selling the boat will save many hundreds a month in costs, and while the market sucks, it will provide some cash. Selling off accumulations so that we can travel/move lighter whatever the outcome is simplifying the logistics.

--Ats

[This message edited by atsenaotie at 10:10 AM, August 8th (Monday)]


LTA BS 53
FWW 60
M 1990, dday 10-5-09
Reconciled

Posts: 3968 | Registered: Feb 2010 | From: FL
m334455
♀ Member
Member # 26893
Default  Posted: 9:46 AM, August 8th (Monday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Hi Laura!
I'm so proud of you for being in charge all this time... it's got to be good experience, even if it is hectic. Don't forget, if you chose to take an advanced position like that, it would most likely be a little less hectic because you would be able to set your own parameters within what you are doing now (i.e. do it a bit more "your way" as best as is possible.) I see this with my neighbor. She is a manager at my office and she's always killing herself working weekends, etc. My own manager does not do that. She set some boundaries with us shortly after becoming a manager -- said "the official policy is that you need to get me your work for review X number of days before it is due and I'm going to insist you stick to that because I'm not going to take weekends away from my 9 year old due to your inability to be responsible. And if we all suffer some poor consequences due to overdue work while you get used to that, then so be it." And that's what she did. She let HER boss know, she documented everything that went overdue, and after about 6 months, when people started getting official performance warnings, etc. we started to shape up!

Today, I'm having to do the double window thing! You've all been so busy.

lostsuol
-- I'd love to go to Branson! enjoy your time there :) miracle suggested something for yourself -- I suggest Zumba! It's awesome fun (if it doesn't kill you, LOL.)

Nell
-- the Better Living Through Chemistry is essential. Non-negotiable. I accept I'm built like VanGough/Hemingway/Sylvia Plath/Jimi Hendrix (insert tragic person here) but that I'd rather not cut my ear off or OD or kill myself, etc. So, every morning I take my blue pill and pull a reverse Alice and hop up out of the rabbit hole to do my "normal person" impression.

Awakened:
I did read your post. Both of them, but espeically the one about death. Your mom is shallow and less enlightened than you. Let it be. Agree to disagree. I think her lack of compassion comes more from fear and shallowness than any real malice.

Honest:
I loved your post -- the whole darn thing! I can see you starting to "snap out of it" so to speak. Nice to meet you! This is the honest you were before the mind-fuck, I'm guessing.

Hey tryn!
Good thing you put in a list. I need to go back and find your list of desirables. I should make a folder with all your lists and charts. They are wonderful. Hope the cruise was a lot of fun.

Njgal:

The weather throughout most of the US has been brutal this summer.
Its finally cooled down on the east coast.

Pah! speak for yourself. It's been and still is one of those "no wonder everyone in this town used to get hazard pay" kind of summers. Mosquitoes are brutal. This is what happens when you make the genius decision to build your city on a swamp. At least we don't have malaria around here anymore.

miracle
-- it is what it is. I've wondered why the infidelity is the worst to me. I think back when I kept losing babies I thought that was the worst thing ever. I must forgive myself for not noticing the A sooner. I did miscarry 5 babies during it. And gave birth to another 3.

But, though I was heartbroken at the time, the
miscarriages don't hurt anymore. The lack of support during them still hurts. I won't forget that WH sent his nephew to keep me company for one of the surgeries, and spent the day drunk at a NCAA tournament game with OW for another. I can't believe I had two more children with him after that. What on EARTH was I thinking?
What will I do? Well, I LOVE to travel. I really hate that all my spare cash has gone to WH's boating for the past 10 years and every time I've asked to go somewhere it's either "no" or "yes" but then it doesn't happen because there's some last minute excuse. Also, I'd like to get my finances in order so I can work part time sooner rather than later. That would be awesome.

Allgood
-- I have a dear friend who just got married 2 weeks ago. My friend who helped me at first, who got divorced due to infidelity because her husband also took up banging other women as his hobby to kill the time she was off at law school at night.

Anyway, it's been about 5 or 6 years since her divorce. She did have a few relationships in that time. One that ended so painfully for her that she dropped a good 20 pounds almost overnight.

But, she also finished law school, bought her own home, traveled a LOT and BECAME A JUDGE!!! in that time. And she was a year behind me in law school -- and I went to a better law school. So, don't underestimate the awesomeness of being able to do it all your way. Hugs to your children.

Laura
-- I haven't been having sex either. It's all my fault. I don't want to. I am physically attracted to my WH, but not mentally. I'll start to think I can, but then he'll act like a douchebag again and it's all off. The other day I said to him, you know, you haven't said one thing to me that was not lewd and non-sexual for about 4 days now. It's just gross, not flirtatious or erotic at all. Like, he'll walk up to me and just grab my breasts. Or, this weekend I thanked him for bringing the younger kids to the boat separately from my oldest who I got to spend some special time with and he said, right in front of all 4, it's because I want you to put out. I WANT YOU TO PUT OUT. Nice. I mean, really. How in God's name did this man get someone to have an affair with him? I keep saying, hey, maybe you should try talking to me like a human being and maybe doing something with me instead of grabbing my breasts and then sitting one the couch watching TV and pouting that it wasn't just SO arousing to me while I wrangle 4 small kids. That might help.

Point is -- really, Laura! Stop treating him like a piece of meat! He's a person with feelings you know. No, actually, the point is, randomly grab him somewhere lewd, give him a big sloppy kiss and ask him for something really dirty while dragging his butt into the bedroom.

vulnerable
-- if my WH ever breaks NC. EVER. EVER, ever, ever his is gone. WAY gone. Don't let him do this to you. At least go NC with him. I agree with miracle -- if he does not go NC R can NEVER happen. Nope. The simple rule is "a man and a woman cannot be "just" friends if either one of them is attracted to the other." Shortly after Dday I dragged my WH to his IC (whom he had been seeing 1 1/2 years, yet the man did not know WH was cheating.) By the end of our hour there, his IC was nearly in a panic over me (I could, at least communicate accurately to the IC as the IC was not in narcissitic denial) and the IC looked at WH and said: "you can never, ever, ever do this again. Never. Never, ever, ever. If you want this marriage, you can't even speak to this woman again. You can't even look at her if you pass her on the street. Never, ever. Your wife is dead serious here. She is NOT one of those people who is going to give you any other chance than the one you're getting right now." At least someone recognized it.
Point is: I don't think it's possible to have a true reconciliation unless he goes NC, but I also think you have to develop that attitude as well. Everyone who posts here who is TRULY reconciled has adopted that attitude. You have to have the self-respect, not only for your own self-image and peace of mind, but also so that your spouse sees you as a high-value target, so to speak. Everyone wants the best. Your attitude needs to be "if you want to be with gutter skank trash instead of me, be my guest." I literally said to my husband "I will love you no matter what, but I will NOT be your wife no matter what. You can be an excellent husband, or you can be someone else's husband." He's kind of running out of time on achieveing the excellent husband part -- but- hey! At least I offered him a back-up plan.

Aagh! Miracle, I LOVE that cake! Thanks for sharing...

ATS
-- I'm just going to send you warm thoughts. You seem to have it all under control there.

Tomorrow is my wedding anniversary. We don't have plans, but that's OK. My parents are taking the kids this afternoon and I'll go get Paddy (I guess I need to drop the baby now, she informed me that she's a big girl and that her stuffed Bunny "Bunny" is her baby) and Sunshine Wednesday and The Pasha and The Pharaoh can either come home then as well or stay the rest of the week.
I got a peace offering from WH this past week for a more serious issue we've been dealing with.
Anyway, the peace offering was a nice surprise. But it also made me really think -- the fact that he made a peace offering instead of getting angrier... even better. It was nice to see that we'd been equalized in at least some aspect in his mind. It was nice to see that the thought I deserved a peace offering and that he was willing to make one.

As if this post was not long enough: one more thing: I read this yesterday and I wanted to share. This is paraphrased, I'll try to find the quote and update later --

When you stop using another person to medicate your feelings or to provide you will a sense of security you sometimes find you do not love that person at all.

I don't really think this applies to me -- but it might apply to some of you.

Honest
, I did not miss your point about a relationship being toxic. Good point indeed.

[This message edited by m334455 at 9:50 AM, August 8th (Monday)]


BW 38, 5 kids
Dday Dec. 2009

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