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I Can Relate     Print Topic    
User Topic: Long Term Affair - Part 26
trynhard
♂ Member
Member # 22698
Default  Posted: 8:44 AM, August 2nd (Tuesday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Hey Nell,

I read somewhere that when you need to discuss feelings in the marriage, you should not warn him. You wait for a time you know you both can be alone and some time. Plan it.

I’m sure he thinks he’s just fine and he doesn’t need any of that “crap”. My W is a “know it all” Psychology Major and of course she’s studied it all. She knows it all too. She told me a few times, “IC won’t do me any good.” My W struggled through some books and I never wanted her to come here. It really is a choice for them to want to be a better partner. All those things you want him to do really boils down to one simple thing.


My guess is that you just don’t feel loved. Maybe you should describe to him situations when you did feel loved by him. “I need to be loved in ways I can feel attractive, admired, tender, and considerate.” Ask him, what are you doing to love me? It is his choice to figure this out. He can read those books, IC and want to figure it out on his own or not. Those are just tools.

Let me describe a recent situation where I felt tremendous love from my W. I am not sure how we started the conversation but she was saying she has shame for what she had done. Tears were coming from her eyes. I told her with conviction, I don’t want you to have that feeling because of me. So, she came over to me, and placed both hands on my face and gave me one of the most meaningful kisses I have had from her in ever. It is solid in my brain. I truly felt a deep sense of caring, meaning, and good to my inner soul.

Let me describe last night how I didn’t feel loved. I told my W on Sunday after work last night I was going to the Colts Training camp and by the casino. I called her during the day to say I was going. I called her from the casino and she said, “I was in trouble” Huh? Why am I in trouble? If she wanted me to come home she should have said, “honey, can you please come home… etc.” I would have come home right away. When I did get home, I got the silent treatment. I really don’t feel too loved right now either. Since my W has no idea how to share feelings without me being catalysts to open her up, I will asked her what I did wrong over a glass of wine tonight. What boundary I crossed last night? Who knows, maybe the $100 I usually lose. Oh brother.

Daily life in tryn land… Anyways, good luck with you Nell… Keep it simple.. I don’t feel loved is my advice.


Posts: 2636 | Registered: Feb 2009 | From: Indiana
iwantamiracle
♀ Member
Member # 22812
Default  Posted: 9:18 AM, August 2nd (Tuesday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

nell....

he may never do any of the things you need or want him to do....so basically he has already shown you who he is....is he enough for you, is who he is now enough for you, do you think you will find a way to be happy with the way things are now...

and for the miracle house..normal...i dont think there ever was a normal or will ever be a normal...i think of it in terms of calm and not calm....pfm continues to do stupid well is all i can say...and when he does stupid well calm is the last thing i feel....i am looking forward to my dissolution of the charade of my life, taking it one day at a time, and when he does stupid really well i take it by the minute....and god bless that little itty bitty pill (xanax)

on a positive front...manchild has passed his road test and is now a licensed driver....so way to go manchild, woohoo....a new worry for me as mom, proud and scared at the same time


oh and nell, hope your a/c is fixed....here in ny its goin to 90 today...hope its cooler by you...


(((tribe)))


i am taking my life back, one step at a time!!!!!

Posts: 5994 | Registered: Feb 2009 | From: looking for my rainbow
njgal480
♀ Member
Member # 24938
Default  Posted: 9:58 AM, August 2nd (Tuesday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Hi Nell-
Sounds like you're having a busy but productice summer.
About your FWH and the 'work'.
Well...in most cases (except for the time period right after d-day when everyone is in such crisis mode) the WS are not in a hurry to read about infidelity, talk about the affair, or go to IC or MC.
Even when they are remorseful and want to save the marriage they are not too thrilled about re-living that toxic period of their life. They hope that now that things are back to 'normal' then maybe everything can just be swept under the rug and forgotten or at least forgiven and not mentioned anymore.
So...your FWH is not unusual in his response...but...if you feel like you need more then you may need to take over and make the appts etc that you need.
If you think that more MC is needed then tell him that and you go ahead and find a competent MC and make the appts.
If in the end it helps you in your R process maybe it doesn't matter who makes the actual appt.?
Or..maybe trying something different could help- like Tryin always points out Retrouvaille is a totally different kind of experience from MC. It's intense, it's over a weekend, it's all about communication between the two of you, there's no sharing in front of others..it may appeal to your FWH.
Also there are other options- the Gottman's are a married couple-both MC- and they hold weekend retreats for couples in Washington state.
I know it may sound expensive but like I always say...it probably will cost what one month of supporting two households would cost-divorce is expensive.
Just some thoughts.


Me- BS
Him- WH
Long term marriage
D-day- Jan. 2007
5 yr. LTA
Reconciled.


Posts: 3139 | Registered: Jul 2009 | From: NJ
m334455
♀ Member
Member # 26893
Default  Posted: 10:31 AM, August 2nd (Tuesday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Nell

I've been thinking about this one part of Melody Beattie's book "The New Codependence" over and over:

From Section Five "Troubleshoting Guide" What to Do When...
We Don't Know Whether to Stay or Leave

Don't waste our energy agonizing about staying or leaving. When it's time to end the relationship, we'll know it. The relationship will be dead; it won't have a pulse. If we don't feel that way yet, the relationship is living. Stop torturing ourselves. This is the rule of thumb when we don't know if we should stay or leave: If we're not clear aobut leaving, the relationship isn't over. Stop resisting. Be in it. Take care of ourselves where we are. ... When it's time to end a relationship, it often happens so naturally it happens almost by itself. Before we can say it's over, someone is on his or her way out the door.

I'm not sure why I think that might help you, the way it has been helping me. Maybe because of the list, the "taking stock".

Anyway, I've been trying to make this quote my mantra. "Take care of ourselves where we are." It's 180. Sort of. It's "I care about what I want. Maybe I care about what you want. Maybe I don't give a shit -- but I definitely care about what I want." It's direct, unambiguous communication. It's ... working on tryn's list of desireables, because, hey, they're good habits and they'll make you desireable to everyone so who care whether or not it works on your WS?

It's making the things you want to happen -- happen and making the things you need to happen -- happen as well. Either with your WS's help, or despite him/her. It's choosing your life path and not worrying too much about whether or not your WS is coming along for the ride. Maybe they are, maybe not. Whatever. Either way, it's for the best.

Should I insert some sort of graph or chart here?


BW 38, 5 kids
Dday Dec. 2009

Posts: 4034 | Registered: Dec 2009
ImNellNow
♀ Member
Member # 28753
Default  Posted: 10:40 AM, August 2nd (Tuesday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I read somewhere that when you need to discuss feelings in the marriage, you should not warn him. You wait for a time you know you both can be alone and some time. Plan it.

I am only half-interested in talking about anything with WH... we SHOULD do it, but I'm not particularly motivated to do it. Maybe I'll use one of my vacation days to have a conversation that will include me yakking my fool head off, him sitting there being unresponsive, falsely affirming and/or defensive in reaction to what I've said but contributing nothing to the conversation, and then that familiar sound of nothing changing.
Ask him, what are you doing to love me?

I've considered asking this, but I really don't want to hear what he thinks he's doing. The fact is, he wants to pretend that nothing is wrong and nothing has changed. It would be convenient for him if I could just constantly feed his soul with little pieces of my own.
I’m sure he thinks he’s just fine and he doesn’t need any of that “crap”.

Perhaps, but he would never SAY that. Instead he agrees with me that it is a good idea (or not a bad idea) and does nothing about it.
Maybe you should describe to him situations when you did feel loved by him.

Problem is, everything I know about him now tells me that when I was feeling loved, I may not actually have BEEN loved. I felt loved because I was loving. I was coloring his actions with my crayons. Or maybe I'm wrong. Or maybe I'm not. Anyway, it calls into question everything, not just during his A but before it and I'm not sure which end is up. And I don't trust that he knows which end it truly up, either. He just picks the end that makes him look the best and slaps the "UP" sticker on that and calls it done.
is he enough for you, is who he is now enough for you, do you think you will find a way to be happy with the way things are now

No, no... and currently the benefits of remaining married to WH outweigh the costs. I am able to make myself happy without relying on WH to increase that happiness, I am financially better off, my Boyos' primary family is intact and I spend time with them every day and I don't worry about them being subjected to whatever lowlife gutter skanks offer to make WH's private parts tingly in return for a couple of Subway sandwiches a week and babytalk texts. (Because "kids don't get a vote," if adults want to play house.)


BS & D
Drinking wine and thinking bliss is on the other side of this.

Posts: 2370 | Registered: Jun 2010 | From: Baby steps on my new path
m334455
♀ Member
Member # 26893
Default  Posted: 10:53 AM, August 2nd (Tuesday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I truly love your way with words, Nell. I truly do.

Here's an exercise for you: keep track of how much time you spend interacting with your WH and also how much time you spend thinking about your WH. Just a thought. How do you feel about those interactions and thoughts? Etc.


BW 38, 5 kids
Dday Dec. 2009

Posts: 4034 | Registered: Dec 2009
trynhard
♂ Member
Member # 22698
Default  Posted: 12:13 PM, August 2nd (Tuesday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Nell, I think you are in a pickle right now.


Or maybe the pickles in you I don't know?

Anyway, you might be wrong. I think he was loving you and you were feeling his love. Problem was he was love'n fake love'n or whatever we decided on love was.. he was the "?ing" OW too at the same time. But how do you love two at once you ask? You just do.

Relationships are hard. My W is not feeling too good right now. She says she just wants to run way. I'm still guessing. Stress at her law office is splitting in two. She feels like she is stuck in a box. Still trying to figure out why I am at fault here so I'm just listening. So I just sent her a very good affirmation email and gonna do the "Dip" DeepP thing tonight.

This is always looming with us.. I'm with a woman who cannot open her eyes to the joys of what we have because she lives her life regret moving away from her family. She can fly down anytime she wants. Maybe I showed her one too many charts and she's had it?

[This message edited by trynhard at 12:48 PM, August 2nd (Tuesday)]


Posts: 2636 | Registered: Feb 2009 | From: Indiana
ImNellNow
♀ Member
Member # 28753
Default  Posted: 12:50 PM, August 2nd (Tuesday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Lets just agree to make page 29 Nell's Page, shall we? Dang. I've haven't gotten this much attention in a long time...

It took me so long to finish my response to tryn and miracle that I ended up cross-posting with njgal and m3. So. Here we go.

njgal,
As unmotivated as WH is (and despite all my complaining of same), I have lost most of my "make the M better" mojo, too. It's something I should try, but... meh... seems like a lot of work on my part and there is a bit of resentment going on deep inside the dank dark recesses of my brain. (It looks a lot like: why the hell should I continue to shovel his shit while he sits back and enjoys the fact that the shit is getting cleaned up? That makes me ashamed to admit. Yuck.)

Yeah yeah Retro. They don't have anything planned in my state (although I need to check back in on this). Again, the problem is, I've got very little motivation for continuing the process of improving this relationship. WH seems completely unmotivated to improve anything. I'm very motivated to improve myself.

m3,
I like your whole post. Do you suggest The New Codependence or Co-Dependent No More (for me)? I don't know that I can stomach tackling both. It seems way too co-dependent to read everything you're reading. Or does it? I don't know, what do you think?

tryn,
It's possible I'm wrong. There's a first time for everything, right?

miracle,
I'm so happy that you're a little bit more free (from the driving manchild around)! Yippee!


BS & D
Drinking wine and thinking bliss is on the other side of this.

Posts: 2370 | Registered: Jun 2010 | From: Baby steps on my new path
atsenaotie
♂ Member
Member # 27650
Default  Posted: 12:54 PM, August 2nd (Tuesday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Maybe I showed her one too many charts and she's had it?

Like a chart-attack?

btw, does "doing the Dip DeepP thing tonight" mean you grilling or putting on your mankinni?

Nell, she comes back Thursday evening.


LTA BS 53
FWW 60
M 1990, dday 10-5-09
Reconciled

Posts: 3967 | Registered: Feb 2010 | From: FL
trynhard
♂ Member
Member # 22698
Default  Posted: 1:06 PM, August 2nd (Tuesday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Nell.. So you have given up trying.

Don't you want some peace again?


Posts: 2636 | Registered: Feb 2009 | From: Indiana
trynhard
♂ Member
Member # 22698
Default  Posted: 1:18 PM, August 2nd (Tuesday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Yeh ats... Everyone is welcome to come eat!


Posts: 2636 | Registered: Feb 2009 | From: Indiana
iwantamiracle
♀ Member
Member # 22812
Default  Posted: 1:34 PM, August 2nd (Tuesday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

tryn...i dont think nell is done tryin so much as she is done trying to lead the horse to the water and he refusing to drink...

i seem to have this with everyone in my household, pfm and kids...there comes a point in time where you have to step back and either let them fly or fall....

as for mr nell...she keeps telling him, showing him...basically spoon feeding him everything she needs and wants and he refuses to eat...pfm was and is the same....

i get the impression with them that when you say black they say a shade of grey and then they take their perception of who they are, what they have done and paint it with those lovely crayola crayons nell was talkin bout.....all the coloring of course shading them perfectly and us wanting or needing...

tryn...i get the sense that your wife is still quite insecure, and no amount of your praising is going to fix it, she has to fix it from within...she also has to forgive herself, and she needs to learn how to love herself



i am taking my life back, one step at a time!!!!!

Posts: 5994 | Registered: Feb 2009 | From: looking for my rainbow
trynhard
♂ Member
Member # 22698
Default  Posted: 2:03 PM, August 2nd (Tuesday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

iwant.. I do understand what you said.

ok wife just emailed she's in tears her best work friend is leaving the company. Says she feels under appreciated lately. So I'm gonna try and show her I am appreciative.

Oh well... off to living.

[This message edited by trynhard at 2:05 PM, August 2nd (Tuesday)]


Posts: 2636 | Registered: Feb 2009 | From: Indiana
atsenaotie
♂ Member
Member # 27650
Default  Posted: 2:36 PM, August 2nd (Tuesday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Nell, In honor of Page 29, the Nell Page I read back though some of your posts and profile. I can only imagine how frustrating it has been for you since dday. As you have seen in my posts, I struggle despite FWW reading books and attending IC. While I often wish it was more/sooner, she has at least been doing work on herself and the M.

From my perspective of what you have posted, I do not believe that MC, retro, or a retreat will be of any lasting help until your H decides to address his own issues. Attending IC, reading, introspection, remorse, empathy are the typical signs that a WS is trying to figure him or herself out. Until thse things are occuring, I do not belive there is a healthy person to R with.

Tryn, Boys and I were grilling tonight, but now I think I will pick up Chinese instead.

iwam, driving and license is nice. For me, controlling access to the car became an important tool for focusing DS back to household chores and responsibilities when he was feeling "grown up" and independent.

Ats

[This message edited by atsenaotie at 2:37 PM, August 2nd (Tuesday)]


LTA BS 53
FWW 60
M 1990, dday 10-5-09
Reconciled

Posts: 3967 | Registered: Feb 2010 | From: FL
old dipstick
♂ Member
Member # 25598
Default  Posted: 4:20 PM, August 2nd (Tuesday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

We do need more charts. There has been a chart dry spell here lately.

In honor of Nell's page I just have to say, "Nell you are smokin hot."

Now speaking of hot. It is 105 but I am grilling anyway. I am not wearing a outfit like the picture tryn posted of him and his friends though.

Hugs to the tribe.


Her WW 60
Me BH 60
M 36 yr
D-day#1 fall of 76 OM#1 2NS
D-day#2 summer of 89 OM#2 LTA 8 yrs OM#3 Short Term A


Posts: 751 | Registered: Sep 2009
ImNellNow
♀ Member
Member # 28753
Default  Posted: 4:30 PM, August 2nd (Tuesday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I love you guys. Thanks for having my back!


BS & D
Drinking wine and thinking bliss is on the other side of this.

Posts: 2370 | Registered: Jun 2010 | From: Baby steps on my new path
old dipstick
♂ Member
Member # 25598
Default  Posted: 4:54 PM, August 2nd (Tuesday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

WOW! Six smoochies!


Her WW 60
Me BH 60
M 36 yr
D-day#1 fall of 76 OM#1 2NS
D-day#2 summer of 89 OM#2 LTA 8 yrs OM#3 Short Term A


Posts: 751 | Registered: Sep 2009
broken&lonely
♀ Member
Member # 31503
Default  Posted: 9:38 PM, August 2nd (Tuesday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Hello everyone. I'm trying to learn about all your stories but it's hard to keep up.

I feel too ridiculous now to post what I had planned after reading some more of your posts. I hear so much pain in your words.

Am I naive to think that my WH's efforts are genuine? Am I fooling myself into seeing good that isn't really there? Holy shit. I am terrified every minute that he is going to hurt me again, that I'm going to wake up one day and he'll tell me he was just fucking with me and now he's leaving (I have dreams like this all the time). Am I making it easier for him to do that to me?

How do you know if any of it is real???? I feel like I'm trapped in the Twilight Zone. Any minute Rod Serling is going to pop out and tell me where I went wrong. I feel like I'm losing my grip on reality sometimes.

[This message edited by broken&lonely at 9:44 PM, August 2nd (Tuesday)]


Me - BS (37) - Stronger & Wiser, Cautiously off the fence
Him - WH (38) - Earning his F
Daughter (2) - Light of our lives
Together 12yrs, Married 10, Friends for 20+
D-day 2.5.11
Attempting to find each other again

Posts: 381 | Registered: Mar 2011
iwantamiracle
♀ Member
Member # 22812
Default  Posted: 10:16 PM, August 2nd (Tuesday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

(((broken)))


whether or not your ws is genuine...none of us can answer that, we all wish we could....but sadly we have no way of knowing if they have successfully pulled their heads from their anus's and cleaned up the shit.....

unfortunately for many of us we still need to stick around to find out, we need to know that we gave it our all even though we know we have every right not to and to walk away....to follow your path of least regret is your path, and only youcan determine what path that is....if you leave now will you wonder if you could have made it, will you regret not giving it every chance to succeed....and the time comes when you have to say its been long enough i have not seen anything that will lead me to believe that it will change...or hopefully the time will come and you can say, we made it through......and when youhave kids, it makes it that much more harder to walk away for some of us...


so, set a time limit goal to see somethings from him...what has shown you, who is he NOW...and what is he doing to show you that he will never be that lying cheat again, what is he doing to make you feel safe, what is he doing to reassure you, what is he doing period....

and never hesitate to post in here, and dont worry about keepin up with us or learning bout us...if you come in here regularly it will come with time...right now you are in so much pain i think you need to focus on your healing...the rest will come

we love you too nell...


update on manchild and his license....5 hours after passing he has a fender bender with his sister... ...everyone is fine...the car is mildly damaged...really need to look for it...

the joys of teens...


i am taking my life back, one step at a time!!!!!

Posts: 5994 | Registered: Feb 2009 | From: looking for my rainbow
njgal480
♀ Member
Member # 24938
Default  Posted: 6:27 AM, August 3rd (Wednesday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

broken-

welcome to our little corner of SI.
All of us are dealing with LTAs but we are all at different stages and in slightly different situations.

My FWH and I have reconciled and things are going really well. D-day was a huge wake up call for him and made him make a lot of positive changes in himself, his attitude toward life, etc.
He is actually a much better husband and father post d-day.

After d-day he said that he had always loved only me...but he admitted that he had not appreciated me like he should have, that he took me for granted, that he did not cherish me as he should have.
That all changed after d-day.
It took seeing my reaction to the LTA to make understand how truly awful his behavior was...how toxic.

Ever since then he has been working really hard to make amends to me, our family, etc.
So.. I am someone who does believe that you can reconcile after a LTA...and I do believe that a person really can change.
I do not believe that once a cheater always a cheater line.
That may be true for some people...for those that are not remorseful and do not do any 'work' on themselves-no introspections, IC, etc.
My husband's MOW is an example of that...she is someone who has never looked at herself and her actions..so she has spent her adult life pursuing affairs with married men, wrecking other marriages as well as her own.
from what I hear..she is still totally unrepentent and unremorseful for the pain and havoc her LTA with my husband has caused (this was not her first LTA either).
So.. I just wanted to let you know that R is possible if your FWS is willing to do the work.


Me- BS
Him- WH
Long term marriage
D-day- Jan. 2007
5 yr. LTA
Reconciled.


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