Laura & Tryn: I wish this was just me meeting a physical need, then I wouldn't feel like such a loser about it. No, this was me trying to explain my emotional needs to someone who has proven he doesn't give an F about my emotional needs, which basically backfired & I put myself in a position where I once again used by my H.
Anyway - thanks to everyone who lended their support. Felt like texting H this morning to once again clarify x,y & z & thankfully found the self control to delete it. No point. It's all been said & done. That he seems to still misunderstand it all, is either bullshit or not my problem. I really feel like over the last 1 1/2 years, the consistency of the general message should be sufficient, not the clarity of one or the last message.
Ok - babbling's got to stop. Lol.
M3: I like the idea of checking the Healing library for the stuff meant for WS. I will do that. ANd, I'm glad that you got this pertinent info to the IC. It is remarkable how they edit to make themselves look good even with their own IC. My H would do it too. Just remarkable. I hope your H continues to go now that the IC may be calling him out more on his behavior.
told him how he'd been talking to a doctor friend and IC's are only one step higher on the food chain than coroner's in the doctor heirarchy.... he treats this dude like he's a drug dealer
O, don't you love the arrogance & the superiority?
he is showing you who he is, everytime he tells you he wants what he wants and cant stop he is showing you who he is....BELIEVE HIM WHEN HE SHOWS YOU!!!
believe the actions not the words....
Beautifully put. This should be the BS mantra.
I wanted to say to you last night -- your WW's feelings are just feelings. They do not reflect the reality about you. My father was desperately ill with depression for many, many years but fought hard to get well and he has told me many times that feelings follow ACTIONS. I think you know that. If you continue to behave the way you advocate and if she does the actions she needs to do to hold up her end of the M then her feelings will return.
When I was having my pity party the other day & was going through a whole bunch of OW stuff to torture myself further, I found her time from a 5k she recently ran. Despite the fact that she is 9 years younger than me, has all the time in the world to work out, etc., I blow her away! Lol - granted those double ds might have prevented her from going faster without risking injury, but still - I had to laugh.
There is a lot going on out there, so ((hugs)) all around.
Here in LTA and elsewhere on SI there is a lot of discussion of how R would be possible if only the FWS was remorseful, owing their sh*t, fill in the _____. It is my perspective that even with a remorseful spouse who is owning his or her sh*t , and doing the hard work, R is not a given. What is important is not what the FWS is doing, but what the BS is getting from the M.
I think that for many of us our M was broken for quite some time before dday. A FWS who is no longer in contact with an AP, no longer re-writing reality, and fixing him or herself leaves us back with what was often a dysfunctional M. I know that at least for me, that M is no longer acceptable. What I have now I would have once been very happy to have, but a good relationship is not just the absence of bad things.
What I do think I see often on SI, and in my own life, is when the BS takes the focus off the FWS and attends to his or her own healing and needs, the M relationship just begins to dissolve. Just as we often repeat the phrase “it takes 2 to R”, it is just as true that it takes 2 to make a M. What I, and I suspect other BS need to be comfortable doing is letting that M dissolve away if there is no other active participant.
I run alongside my M like when I was training my DSs to ride a bicycle. I give a push to get it rolling, I have my arms at to catch and right it if it begins to fall. There are spaces where the M is rolling forward and FWW is pedaling, but if I stop running alongside it will fall over and crash. At least this is my perception. I need to let it crash. I need to quit communicating to FWW that I do not believe she is capable.
I understand their desire in allgoodnamesgone and others to pick the M up one last time to give it a push, and see if it will finally move forward.
ats - how come your WW disappears in the summer?
m334455, that is a good and insightful question. A couple of things I think play into this. Kids are out of school and they have more requests for her time. In addition, her sister who is a teacher is off and schedules events that do not include me. There may be more, IDK. I do know she is working again this evening. There are ALWAYS valid reasons why she HAS to work or be gone to visit family. I just look at the outcome, and just as in our previous M, I find I am still the one she feels safe or justified to disappoint. She is comfortable canceling plans with me, or not following through to meet my desires. She was busy over the weekend because she did not want to disappoint her clients or employees. She is not travelling with me next week so she can visit with her sister.
I learned a lesson yesterday though. She and I had plans to go hear the band and enjoy some drinks at the waterfront restaurant. Work came up for her, so I went alone. I did not think I would have much fun alone, but went out of spite. The fact is I did have fun. Hanging out waterfront drinking draft beer, eating a seafood snack, and listening to great music is much better than doing laundry or other housework.
[This message edited by atsenaotie at 8:12 AM, June 6th (Monday)]
Willow – like others, I am concerned about you.
You can't change them. Your WS has to change themselves. If they don't choose to change you can either stay in an abusive relationship or leave.
You seem to be drowning and sinking downwards without a lifebelt. Sweetie, there is NEVER a “right time”. Believe me, there isn’t. I assume your DD has her place at uni assured depending upon her results. I am assuming you are in the UK and that your DD will be at a UK uni. So, get this month over with and then get things out into the open. There will be the whole of July, August and probably all of September before she goes off. And you should encourage her to do so. Her home circumstances may change, her funding may change but her life will go on. If you wait until she is settled at uni, that in itself will be another “reason” to stay in the m and only allows for the contact with this “friend” to continue. Get yourself out from under now. Get some legal advice. Line up your ducks as neat as you can. And then lay the boundaries down for your WH and your m. Do it willow, you cannot live like this, it is killing you. Please hon, at least get some advice? Make that call, take that step. (((((Willow)))))
Allgood – you did not decide to end your m – Mr Nogood did (I think we have to call him that now) You gave it your best shot. You tried to get him to be proactive. He has been found wanting. There comes a time when you have to say enough and that you deserve better. Do not berate yourself.
It is remarkable how they edit to make themselves look good even with their own IC. My H would do it too. Just remarkable.
Hanging out waterfront drinking draft beer, eating a seafood snack, and listening to great music is much better than doing laundry or other housework.
Just saying that the dogs have gone. A Labrador charity will be giving them new homes. It took two hours to fill in all the forms, to read this and sign, read that and sign, answer q’s about the dogs and their personalities and habits, read the mission statement and the 5sheet blurb on the legalities. We decided that the reason for giving them up was “abandonment by previous owners”. It was a mixture of sadness (they are lovely girls), guilt and relief. They had been out with us while we gardened in the front. They just sat/lay on the front step, watching us, watching people go by or stop and talk, sniffing the air and generally looking like they belonged here.
Mr UKg has gone for a couple more interviews today. One will want him to sign up, but he has a big meet tmw with a co he used to work for – during the A years. He is still saying he can’t make a decision unless I can say where I want to be in a couple of years time (when DS#4 finishes school and goes off to uni). How the fuck do I know? Can I say in a tiny white boarded cottage on the south coast with a tabby cat and doing tai chi with a nice women’s group? And he’s not necessarily included??
eta - grrrr, quotey boxes!!
[This message edited by UKgirl at 8:57 AM, June 6th (Monday)]
BS is getting from the M
I will admit to you, my boundary is to be married to a woman who will choose me over her work. I choose my W over my work.
Me, If I was you, today, I would tell my W, I felt hurt over her choice.
I would not accept it... and the eventual consequences would be for me would be divorce. I am not going to live a life married, but living single. Your W needs to consider how to love you. It's like your sex thing. My Wife says she just doesn't have this "desire" for me, but yet she shows me all the time. Why does she do this? I accept it because I know what it means and know it also is a must for love.
What you described to me was a perfect day to spend with someone. I love those kinds of days and fun. It is love to go with you. It was Sunday. That pile of work will be there on Monday.
I hope you strenght.
Allgood, I think your H loves you. And you loved your H by making love. That is affirmation to a man. He also gave you affirmation by doing it. We all need to be loved. So, you loved him that one night. It is still a choice, a decision. It is yours to make. If you stop loving him that way, then your love will fade. Once you find someone else to love that way, you may begin to start having feelings in a different direction. I wish you peace and may bigfoot never cross your path.
[This message edited by trynhard at 8:55 AM, June 6th (Monday)]
And now, I must go back to concentrating on not losing my job. If WH's circle talking was not enough, his IC's gentle suggestion that being "retired" might be helpful for him was a real eye-opener...
your ws is who he is, he is in ic as is pfm...but there are not enough changes to show growth and progress, not enough changes to show us what we need to see....and the biggest changes we need are in sofar non existant...that is because those changes arent just changes but needs that we now have...and they are just not meetin them...
Hugs to all!
I wish I had more time right now to post more, but there was one thing that bothers me.
Tryn: You have posted before about sex as showing love. But what about those, even single people who have one night stands? I always felt there was a difference between " making love" and having sex. But you often seem to say they are the same.
I'm sorry, maybe I'm misinterpreting what you are saying. I just know that I have felt the difference when WH is just going throught the motions or is just satisfying a physical need and when he is "making love" to me.....
It's just upsetting to think that everytime that WH had sex with someone, even a one night stand that he is "giving love" and not satisfying his NPD needs. KWIM?
Miracle; I WILL BELIEVE THE ACTIONS NOT THE WORDS
Blue Roses; I believe you are right, denying my hatred won't help, once I can feel it and recognise it I can find out what is underneath it, as Allgood says,
sometimes it is easier to hate than to feel the pain
IT IS IMPOSSIBLE TO RECONCILE ON YOUR OWN
IF YOUR WS WILL NOT CHANGE THEN YOU CANNOT R
I know there are others here having a difficult time, so (((((hugs))))) to everyone, and also thank you from the bottom of my heart for the kind words of support and wisdom, I am very grateful.
As for a ONS, a momentary fill of love perhap?
I still think your H was loving two of you at the same time. I know my W was.
[This message edited by trynhard at 11:53 AM, June 6th (Monday)]
I know the phone call last night pissed WH off. I fully expect to not hear from him again until Tues. night when he leaves to return home, and he may not talk to me then, either. Conflict avoidance goes deep in him, and the silent treatment is usually his response.
I'm back to vomiting again for no particular reason except my stomach wants to prove it can still kick up a ruckus.
Remembered to take the ADs today, and popped a benzo, but I still feel like complete and utter shit. I feel like I had another DDay last night - phone sex hot and heavy within 2 weeks of meeting her, giving her my favorite flowers, buying her jewelry I would have liked. Sending flowers to some other, OW on Valentine's Day 2008 (he can't even remember WHO).
I'd been *begging* him for years to get some help with his anger and depression, had asked for M counseling. He denied me all of those, but the minute OW sugggests Cymbalta for his depression and ED, he goes right out and gets himself a scrip for it.
He also does apparently fancy himself still in love with her, and remains adamant that he didn't love me, or think I loved him. He still sees nothing wrong with lying to me for 10 years about OW#1 - since, you know, she was "just a friend" and they didn't have sex.
I have been so utterly alone for so fucking long. Just feeling all the pain of it all over again today, I think. Pity party, I guess.
*Sigh* Yoga tonight. Hopefully I'll feel better after that. Maybe I'll be able to sleep again, at least.
Sorry for the rant/ramble. Just had to get that out, and Maude knows I can't say it to WH - he doesn't want to hear it; I'm not even sure, right now, if he cares.
Willow - I read the Janis Spring book about forgiveness and I found it to be very helpful. In fact, one of the most helpful. Another that has helped me detach or at least help explain my need to detach from FWH is "Co-Dependent No More" by Melodie Beattie. It opened my eyes to the co-dependent behavior that I was/am guilty of and has been a huge help in how I'm responding to my children finding out about the LTA. I was beating myself up about how their lives were going to be ruined because of MY telling them about the LTA. I was taking that responsibility on myself. My thinking was the if only I could "get over" the LTA then my kids would be fine. I wasn't even considering how "un-fine" that would make me and I gave myself permission to not be guilty. FWH is the one responsible for his LTA AND the consequences that follow. I am making a concentrated effort to NOT feel guilty and to let my kids handle their emotions and interactions with FWH in their own way. I am here....I will always be here for them, but I can't make the hurt go away for them any more than I can make it disappear for me. I highly recommend "Co-Dependent No More" for all of us.
As for AD's....a snafu with my on-line pharmacy has delayed my refill and I took the last dose this a.m. I have a call and an e-mail in to my MD....I will not panic...I will not panic....
There is sex as a tool to hurt, to manipulate, to get money, to scratch an itch, to get the upper hand, to feel powerful, to control, to show subservience, to show off to your friends, to get someone to shut up already, to avoid a fight... I don't think any of that has anything to do with love.
Perhaps, too, having sex with someone might be giving love to oneself in a selfish way. I believe there are a lot of people who are not really connecting in any meaningful way when they are making love. I think my WH was fulfilling his need for sex as fun/excitement/addiction/etc more than showing his love, even when he made love to me.
Actions speak louder than words, and WH's actions shows he loves OW and the OC's perhaps more than us.
Strongish, I just realized I forgot my AD's for the past two days too!! I stopped the anti anxiety med for almost 2 weeks, so I am feeling emotions more strongly, but can handle it. I actually am feeling more sad, but, I also am feeling the happiness too. Balance, balance, balance.
Blue roses, never apologize for venting!! That's what we are here for. Also, many times when one of us vents, or "thinks aloud" it helps me, because my feelings are put into words and I have often had an "AHA" moment when someone puts into words my feelings that are so confused. It's clarifying.
The 5 languages of love says you can give love or receive love. I know you can recieve love from someone while they fake it to you. It's love but is it a real love?
Love is hard to know isn't it? Who really knows and understands it anyway?
Yes, Honest, I believe in levels or Intensities of love. After dday, love is not too strong. You don't want to hug, kiss, give gifts, to any services, NO affirmation what so ever, and you sure don't want to give you spouse a lick of quality time.
I guess kinda goes up and down. I strongly know a choice. Feelings are feelings and bad feelings = NO decisions to love them. See I think Allgood had feelings of attraction and made the choice give and recieve the love of touch.
Heck, allgood, I sure wouldn't feel too bad about what you did. Just keep moving ahead I say, whatever you feel will bring you the most happiness.
Here is the meter!
or you can choose to love like this.. oh no... it looks minus!
[This message edited by trynhard at 4:21 PM, June 6th (Monday)]
This may well be the saddest I've ever been.
Your H is going NC with OW? or NC with you?
How good do you feel about yourself? Me, I hated myself right after dday. Don't do it! Don't do what I did. It leads to greater pain. Something I learned about all this...
First, you are not stupid. I don’t like to see that on your profile. You were lied to. Put that on there... I was lied too You were faked out. Your H took advantage of a promise of security. What else are you supposed to do or think in this situation? We are innocent to the world when we get married and say those words, I do. They are the famous last words some people know how to keep and other cannot. It is part of life for many of us. We get fooled. It does not make us a fool.
Answer this? Did your H ask your permission to love this other woman? If you say yes, then I say yes, keep that stupid on your profile. If NO, then know it for what it is, somebody was dishonest to you. It was hidden. How you be stupid if something hidden from you and you don’t know? YOU CANNOT!
Take pride in the fact you never ate the apple and never had to lie yourself .
You are in the top % of good people in the country that can keep a marriage promise of fidelity. That’s a good thing!
DeepP, me, Ats, Dip and so many men in this world would have loved to have had a good woman like you that kept a promise of fidelity. Someone who never hurt us in this way. YOU are a great woman for being who you are... you are a promise keeper.
Don't be afraid. You can move on and I can assure you with a little effort, you can live a very, very, very happy life with a new partner. If this dumb shit H cannot see the beauty in a wonder blue, He is stupid.
the blue rose means mystery. An appreciation for the enigmatic, the inexplicable is expressed by the blue rose. A tantalizing vision that cannot be totally pinned down, a mystery that cannot be fully unraveled is the blue rose. A person who receives the blue rose is the subject of much speculation and thought. A complex personality that does not allow easy interpretation is what the blue rose indicates.
This is you, someone yet to be discovered. Will your H be smart enough to discover you? Or will some lucky guy into your future? That is the big mistery to unfold in your life.
Life is such a beautiful thing. Never allow someone else to control you. Take control over your feelings and do things to make sure you have good feeling. Say, ouch, and let's move into to next phase of your life.
Get some strenght! If you leave your H, you will find a good new partner. It will be very Exciting. Don't you remember the first time you met your H? wasn't when he romanced you all good. All those good feelings. YOu can have this with another if this is the direction you decide to go. Heck, at 39, you are in prime hot babe age for the next part of your life. Just be wise on the next pick. You can read books about what to look out for.
You can R too and feel good. It won't be like find someone new, but you can have a good mature love. You can feel like me. It takes work. I have allowed my W back into my life and she showed me. I changed to lover her like she needed. She changed and loved me like I needed.
It is your choice but you need a little boost and start thinking your life can be very bright!
[This message edited by trynhard at 4:04 PM, June 6th (Monday)]