S&M sex is the most vile, disgusting, degrading and violent stuff I've ever come across in my life. I have nightmares about it. My IC says it's PTSD.
I am headed towards divorce, too, I am sure. Your suicide story did not surprise me at all. You have to be very sick and very very dysfunctional to live a S&M Swinger lifestyle with your spouse.
I feel so sick over all of this. I finally let my husband come over today and take my little boy to his baseball game. Then he took my daughter to the park, and now he's bringing them both out for a quick dinner in the neighborhood. My children don't yet know what's going on. They are 5 and 6.
My husband leads a double life. He manages to compartmentalize things so that when he's with his children, he could win Father of the Year. In fact, he's sick enough to think he practically IS the father of the year.
Yet, my IC says that he is going to end up either exposed or dead if he continues his exploits with men, women, and groups. And I believe him.
It's so weird because I could almost FORGET everything that's going on when I see him with the kids. But I CAN NOT do that. Not for a second.
I'm a mess tonight. I'm better off when my husband is far away. Then I don't have to worry about what he's doing - I can just assume he's doing the worst thing in the world. And then I can go and do some laundry or watch tv in my nice, quiet, safe house. Away from him and his activities.
I am questioning everything!
I am second guessing myself!
I am wanting to talk to him about everything and I know that will be useless.
What a helpless feeling!!
I researched different things and found some organizations that are trying to fight porn, ABS and such.
I plan to sign up for a few.
I don't want to just sit back and watch this stuff take over our lives in general.
I know it has been around forever and it is a big money making industry but I see more and more of those evil shops opening up around my community!
I think how come they are allowed to do this?! Really?! The Town leaders see nothing wrong with this and how it brings a community value down, not to mention the garbage available there?
I know, I am living a life like a salmon swimming upstream but I want my voice to be heard somehow.
I drove home from work tonight and I started crying. I was thinking about how crazy the world has gotten. How evil is just taking over. I have always been feeling this way not just because my life has been affected in the worst way I could of thought and my M may be over..I always thought that our children should not be subjected to online porn, TV shows, and worse they be used in porn.
ChoosingHope: I hope you have reported about that poor 3 yo in that house! Imagine that poor child..I pray that no one has used him/her for their deviant sexual deeds!!
Well, I do have a question tho. Should I attempt to talk to H again or just 180?
He is being very cordial and that has me a bit worried tho cause I don't know if he is setting me up in some way.
This is such a terrible position to be in. I did pretty well detaching and I did take all surveillence off since I needed a break badly.
I know my situation is not as bad (but I really still don't know it all and maybe never will) but it is my sad tale and I am soo depressed!!
I pray for you all for strength go get thru another day.
Cheetah, IDK. When I found out (and stupidly immediately confronted) the last thing I wanted to do was leave and do 180. I wanted to scream and fight and dramatically toss him out or something. But getting on that plane with the kids and spending almost two weeks away from him did a world of good. It gave me clarity and perspective. Maybe for you too?
I've often thought that I have the worst story here, but it's just one of many. My SA WH is still deep in the SA world and will not get help (SA help or psychiatric). See my profile for the gist of my story.
I STILL get accidental "butt calls" where I get to overhear my SA WH negotiate with prostitutes, etc. It's happened a several times. He lies about what city he's in and always ends up getting busted through celll bills or bank activity f-ups, etc. Addicts are pretty stupid. It doesn't matter any more. He spends hundreds of $$ a week on this stuff. He admits to never wearing condoms and doesn't care if he gets/gives HIV to someone. He already feels he's lost everything so feck it. He's taken off to far away cities & states to pursue women.
We will be divorcing...have been separated for 2+ years/married 25. There are also huge financial/tax issues from him. He is one sick man.
I'm sure my WH is into all of the things you have mentioned. The addiction just gets worse and worse.
God knows where he is right now. It has helped that I moved to my mom's house 7 hours away. S-Anon has really helped me the last 4 years.
My WH has said he doesn't HAVE a bottom. I do believe him now. He will most likely die from this addiction or end up in prison eventually. He had the horrific childhood, like most SA's did. And he has the personality disorders to match. He acknowledges he needs help (& had many resources available a few years ago, but he was pretending recovery & lying)...but refuses to get help/recovery.
He is just GONE. I believe that once he crossed the line into real-life acting out, he embraced the Darkness & sold his soul. He knows this. He doesn't even pretend he's sober anymore. He doesn't care who overhears him paying hookers on the phone.
Anyway, glad you found this site!
Praying for a more peaceful day for us all.
[This message edited by cupcakegirl at 7:27 AM, October 16th (Sunday)]
I am sharing all of your pain today!
CCG and others...if you can, let's get proactive and search for sites and organizations that are fighting this demon of porn etc...let's be a part of a change for the younger generations, for our children and grandchildren!
I know each of us is struggling just to get by a day at a time but maybe this will make us feel better that we are trying to help the world be a safer place.
Well, Hope all of you have a peaceful day..do something good for yourself.
Sending special (HUGS) to all
I think of the women that engage in the sex trades. I know they get lots of money, but the erosion of their own souls, not to mention that drug abuse is rampant among them. If the men who hire these women could be made to think of them as someone's daughter/sister/mother could they be as callous in their use of them? IDK. It's a thorny issue with no easy answer. But I'm in if anyone finds a tangible way to act!
BTW, this is the primary reason I want my SAfWH to talk to my kids. They need to know the damage that pornography, strip clubs and infidelity can cause to families.
Hathnofury: thank you. I am going to my first COSA group meeting tomorrow night. I am nervous, but I hope it will help me in the long run.
ScribblingMum, I'm so sorry to read your story. Thanks to my husband spending every moment at work for the past six month SEXTING people or meeting people, we have serious financial problems too. My dad has stepped in and is trying to pay down some bills in my name. Sad. I'm 43 years old.
I will go to my grave thinking of your husband saying he doesn't have a bottom. It's so frightening. This is my biggest fear for my husband. My husband is going to die from AIDs or from some stranger murdering him. Or who knows, he might end up in jail. Or as the victim of some bizarre sex crime. Exposure or death - those seem to be the only likely endings for him.
When we first confronted this issue seven years ago, my husband got down on his hands and knees and apologized and tried to get help. Same thing when it started up a year ago - I caught it quickly that time. But now that he's in so deep this time, and now that he's found his female partner and fellow-addict, he doesn't even seem to want to get better. Overnight, he suddenly shows nothing but cold contempt for me - and we've been married for 15 years.
I think that's what has amazed me most. Every other time he came crawling back to me, telling me he loved me and that I was the only good thing in his life. This time, he doesn't even give me the time of day unless it's to ask me to come back to live in our home. And he only asks me this because he's broke, and I have a feeling it's getting a little inconvenient to keep living with his ho and her husband and her child.
My husband, like yours, has embraced the darkness to the point where I don't think he can return. The IC who is the best known sexual addiction expert in our city agrees with this.
I remember that cute, smart, funny, kind boy I married fifteen years ago, and I just keep crying. Then I think of my children and I want to KILL HIM for doing this to them.
I am so proud of you for moving away and getting a divorce. I'm in awe of you. I wish I was already divorced, but I can't even imagine how hard it's going to be for me and my kids.
Lastly, cheetabump, I have so much to say about S&M websites and how they try to glamorize and promote the "lifestyle" as they call it. They are slick, they are organized, and they will help sick people like my husband to fight moms like me to get custody of children. They mock the rest of the world as "vanilla." And then when you really take a look at the individuals involved, you see sickness everywhere - real mental illness oozing out of their "profiles."
It's a joke - it's all an illusion. A lot of these people belong in mental institutions or in jail.
Ugh. I have to stop typing. I'm sorry. Thank you for letting me vent.
Anyone here have a WS who agreed to take a pg? I was having some jitters about it and wondered how it went. Tips etc... And of course I am dealing w/a person whose lies are second nature so I wonder if these tests can detect the best of fibbers. what do you guys think? Pie in the sky? (pg is only one part of this intensive)
I am glad WH want to get help, but am sleeping w/one eye open here. I do know this test is not the end-all, more like the beginning if it is accurate. And I do know SA is for life- a constant state of recovery for both parties. I just hope I will not be the only one in R- just like I have been the only spouse true to my marriage.
Thanks and hugs to you!
ChoosingHope, I hope you find comfort and support in your COSA meeting. I'm going to start looking for support groups in November. I really think you will find you are not alone.
Cupcakegirl, I am not a good person to ask about polygraphs. I don't believe in them, LOL. Completely unfounded and whatever, but it is what it is. And I just watched the new season opening episode of Psych which addressed polygraphs that further supported my position, LOL, so that's all supporting evidence I need. But honestly since most people don't share my position, I think the FEAR of the test itself is enough to get significant truth out of most people.
Okay, I have a dilemma for your guys-a situation. I want to preface it by saying that in the scheme of things, my SAfWH has changed 180 since the bad old days. But addiction is addiction and slips are slips, and the reaction I have to them is severe, even if the consequences to him change depending on the nature of the slips. I need feedback from you who are there, or BTDT or are just setting your own boundaries. Am I over reacting?
Our last D-Day was Jan 2010. I had discovered in Aug of 2008 that he had been frequenting strip clubs, he claimed it had stopped, I found it was still ongoing (surprise!) in March of 2009, discovered NASTY porn on his computer in May of 09 and tracked him to a strip club after I through him out. He began attending SA meetings at that point. In Jan of 2010 I found out that the 2 EAs from prior years (02?, 06?) had in fact been PAs. We began intensive SA education and he began treatment with a CSAT.
I refused to snoop. But I have to feel safe, right? So I check whatever I need to check, whenever I need to check it. He had put the family locator program on out phones so I always knew where he was, back in 09. That's how I knew he was at the strip club. BTW, I FIRMLY believe he led me to find out, in order for me to be the one to FIX it.
Anyway, I check his email, phone, and computer. A number of times the history is erased because "it was running slow" Bad idea! The long and the short is that he had a few slips with porn. I don't know how many. I caught him looking at cheerleader comparison sites, and most recently, looking up pictures of young female athletes who apparently have no compunction about modeling in slutty poses.
Now, a "normal" guy in a "normal" marriage looking at some of these girls would probably only draw a shrug from the wife and a comment about a dirty old man. To me it says he's still looking for someone OTHER than me. That I can't compete with a virtual image that doesn't walk, talk, fart and burb. She won't tell him his tie is crooked or he needs a shower. Hell, she is just perfect for a intimacy avoidant addict. And I'm not.
Several weeks ago, when I first found this, and let me be clear, it is not porn, even in my very jaded opinion. It is, however, pictures of sexy young women in provocative poses and attire. And for a brief period of time, in early Sept, there were LOTS of them. I was scared out of my wits, anticipating the escalation still to come.
His explanation was he didn't think it was a slip. It was just curiosity and a way to deal with boredom. He realized that it was in fact a way to deal with some angry emotions he had.
So what do you say ladies? Am I a neurotic paranoid nut? Should I lighten up? I could use any advice you can give me because I am confused and sad, and building a wall of anger...
Has your SAH defined his inner circle, middle circle, and outer circle behaviors with his CSAT? There is a diagram that looks like a bullseye. Inner circle is acting out. Middle circle are slippery slope behaviors that lead to acting out, and outer circle behaviors are healthy behaviors.
Since SA's have varying acting out behaviors, one addict's diagram may be totally different than another's. However, I strongly feel that you are validated in your opinion. I think that your SAH's behavior of looking at provocative females (but not porn) is a slippery slope behavior. Did he masturbate to the images? If so, then he crossed the line into inner circle territory. SA's don't need porn to act out. Many of them scan as well, and that is definitely not porn either, but leads to acting out.
I think that slippery slope behavior should be addressed with the CSAT. The fact that it followed "angry emotions" and boredom definitely puts it into the addiction cycle. My H's addiction cycle is definitely triggered by things like boredom, anger, entitlement, resentment, etc. Emotions that the addict doesn't want to deal with and then chooses to turn to acting out to numb themselves instead of addressing root causes. Part of his work with the CSAT should include identifying triggers to acting out (such as boredom) and learning how to head off acting out and slippery slope behaviors at the pass.
Do you ever do joint sessions or meet with his CSAT? I think this is an issue that would best be addressed there. But no, you are not a "neurotic paranoid nut". Dealing with SA makes all of us feel crazy and doubt our judgement, but you already know that from S-Anon. Take care of yourself, and be kind to you.
I do know a fellow S-Anon member who had her SAH take a poly. He took it a few years into recovery. I never even considered it in my situation. My H did a full disclosure with me, but honestly, I know I will never know all the details of his acting out and I am ok with that. He did enough acting out in various disturbing ways with various OP that the details just weren't important to me anymore. I think all of us have very individual needs in terms of what constitutes an acceptable full disclosure. I already know enough details that I wish I could erase some from my mind.
I am not saying that you shouldn't get one, as the person I know from group found it worthwhile. She had some very specific questions that she wanted her SAH to answer. In my case, my H's acting out spanned all of the first 16 years we were married (and even before), and given the compartmentalization that occurs with addicts, I don't know that it would be of any use. I honestly don't think he remembers some of his acting out. Over 10 years ago he had been on yahoo personals and I had found his ad, printed it, and saved it. When I showed it to his CSAT among a few other things that I had saved over the years, he had not even remembered having a personal ad on yahoo. I don't think he was trying to TT me at all; I just think that the scope of his acting out was so large, that the yahoo ad was just a tiny thing in the grand scheme of his acting out.
SA definitely does have an escalation tendency. I don't think anything would surprise me at this point. Sadly enough, between my H's acting out, his father's acting out, and people in my own FOO's acting out, the gamut of same sex, children, and even animals (so grossed out by that one...one of my relatives) has occurred. My H is well aware of my dealbreakers at this point, and if he was ever to venture into the sort of territory he was in at our last d-day, he knows I am done. I can deal with slips (not condoning them, but saying that if they are dealt with properly we can get through it) but the level of acting out that he did at the end is so unacceptable. I do believe that R is possible with a SA who is in a strong recovery, but it is not an easy road and has to be approached with cautious optimism. Sometimes, I still cannot believe that I am in R with my H. Yes, he has changed incredibly in the last 2 years, but sometimes I have a hard time with feeling like what is wrong with me that I could reconcile with a person who has done some of the things he has.
I hope you are dealing with a CSAT through all of this. A good CSAT, 12 step, and self-care are so important to our recovery as spouses. Good luck with your intensive session. I hope you find the answers you seek.
I wanted to also comment on your statement:
BTW, this is the primary reason I want my SAfWH to talk to my kids. They need to know the damage that pornography, strip clubs and infidelity can cause to families.
As I stated in a previous post, even if our SA's do not chose recovery, that is why recovery for US is so important. These cycles do continue in families. I look at the abuse in my FOO and my H's FOO. I know that although we tried to protect our children from abuse and addiction, sadly enough there was enough dysfunction, lies, and secrets in our lives that my children will need help to be the first generation to break this cycle. I don't want them to grow up to become addicts (of any nature...my drugs of choice are alcohol and work) or to marry an addict. I think the affects of addiction on a family are some of the most heart-wrenching parts of dealing with this for me. The level of shame and disappointment that my kids felt for their father and for me for staying with him and hiding his addiction from them (pre-recovery) is something that we are dealing with very slowly with professional help.
I totally accept I have no control and little effect on WH's recovery and future, but I do have some control and effect on MINE. I know that for many people just dealing with infidelity, year two is way worse than year one, and I can only imagine that it is magnified for SA spouses since the WS can't really help with the BS recovery as much as they should. So it is daunting to see it will get worse just for ME before it will get better, regardless of whatever happens to WH. I'm screwed whether I support him or not, I'm screwed whether he succeeds or not. Not very encouraging.
But I have to trudge on. I deserve to heal from this, my children deserve to have a mama healed from this. I have to do whatever it takes to get ME better, and if I can in any way help WH get better so my kids can have TWO healed parents, even better. But not at the expense of healing ME.
A Vision For You
We realize we know only a little. God will constantly disclose more to you and to us. Ask Him in your morning meditation what you can do each day for the man who is still sick. The answers will come, if your own house is in order. But obviously you cannot transmit something you haven't got. See to it that your relationship with Him is right, and great events will come to pass for you and countless others. This is the Great Fact for us.
Abandon yourself to God as you understand God. Admit your faults to Him and to your fellows. Clear away the wreckage of your past. Give freely of what you find and join us. We shall be with you in the Fellowship of the Spirit, and you will surely meet some of us as you trudge the Road of Happy Destiny.
May God bless you and keep you-until then.