Is SA an addiction? I absolutely know that it is. I do not believe that it is an excuse to behave badly, although I do believe some addicts themselves would perfer to label themselves as selfish, and idiot, or "just a man" rather than admit they have a problem over which they have no control. Addicts have the hope of recovery. Idiots will forever be idiots.
In the 12 step program, there is a reason step one is step one. An addict and those that love him must accept that this behavior is making their lives unmanageable and they have no control over that. In my opinion, the part they can not control is the fact that they have an addiction. It is a fact of life. They can do nothing about it. It's like having a chronic illness... you can not change that reality. For the addict, there will always be urges, the behaviors of the past (what they did to their spouse, family, co-workers, etc.) will forever be there, there will always be temptations and "excuses" to act out. Life.
I believe the rest of the steps teach the addict what other choices they can make to have their lives become manageable. What they have control over is what they do with those choices. The old fork in the road thing.... they have control over the path chosen. One road will lead to utter dispair and brokeness. The other, to a full and rich life.
We learn more and more about the human brain and how it responds. I was disappointed that SA was not recognized as an addiction in the new DSM V. SA can be just as distructive as drugs or alcohol. But, at one time we didn't think that alcoholics were any more than drunks and they could stop if they really wanted to. When we know better we do better.
Everybody have a good holiday weekend. Please do something nice for yourself, that has nothing to do with your SA partner. You deserve it.
Married 8 years.
Hubs is firm in recovery from SA and is like a new man and husband. We are happily reconciling and making great progress...nope, ass is back
Last night my wife and I had a long, tough chat, where she said to me that she still does not know if this is a mental illness (ie addiction) or if I'm just a selfish arsehole who thinks the rules don't apply to them, and do what ever I can get away with. I'm clearly selfish - my actions have been horrifically selfish, but I can clearly see addictive behaviour.
Firstly, all of this is just my opinion, colored by the fact that my SAWH denies his diagnosis and isn't sober or in any type of SA specific therapy. Just to let you know up front where I'm coming from.
What your wife's opinion is re: addiction vs. 'being an asshole' isn't really crucial for you. For her? Yes. She needs to learn all she can from reputable sources and make up her mind, but that's for her to do. It has been incredibly hard to sit here and listen to my SAWH spout off nonsense, but there isn't much I can do to change his mind, and in fact, much of what I say he turns around and uses against me. What can you do? Make sure she has access to accurate information. If she isn't going to therapy gently encourage her to start (don't push). Encourage her to go to support groups. Be as supportive and loving as you can. But in the end, it's up to her.
Specifically in reference to whether or not I think SA is an addiction or not and how did we handle it: Yes, I see SA as a genuine addiction. Yes, addiction makes the addict into a selfish asshole. IMO, the two go hand in hand. I've yet to meet an addict who wouldn't go to extremes to protect, defend and support their addiction. What have I done about our sitch? I went to see a CSAT weekly for ten months. SAWH went for four and a half months then told me the diagnosis was crap and he isn't an addict of any stripe. As I mentioned above, he can think whatever he wants, I won't be able to change his mind. I attend S-Anon meetings and I'm in weekly therapy. For me addiction and 'asshole behavior' & stinkin-thinkin go hand in hand.
However, I also think it's possible to recover from addiction if one is determined and willing to do the long term hard work. I think it's possible to change one's pattern of behavior and thinking. I'm an optimist at heart and I fully believe that human potential is unlimited given enough incentive and motivation. IMO the best thing you can do right now is work your recovery as hard as you can. Be a genuinely nice guy. Show her with actions that you're changing.
Hugs and encouragement to you and to your wife..
"Live a life not an apology." Edward R.Murrow
"I can be changed by what happens to me but I refuse to be reduced by it."
Weekend was rainy. SAH continues to go to meetings, met with sponsor... our therapist is on vacation. Kids are back in school. I had time to glue on fake nails for the first time. they look great but my typing spead has slowed considerable.
Well, should go an pay the bills. Hope everyone is doing well.
I used to bite my nails but now I don't am have gotten fat. I will be trying to keep my nails and lose my excess pounds.
Things aren't quiet here. He wants to rug sweep. I know he is still messaging OW. We had a long talk while the kids were at school. It seems that whenever I initiate a kind act like asking him to breakfast he opens up. He even started crying and said "I'm not dirty or nasty and I didn't do those things you say. Still preaches at church, etc.
We are stuck living together because he won't get out. He wants to keep his image as long as possible.
ALL the typical SA traits are clearly seen. He does something with OW or feeling guilty and then fixes my car, makes me dinner, etc. Same crap going on 2.5 yrs now. He says "you believe I did those things". I can see that he doesn't believe he did it. He is a pssimist. Says I go places with "my boyfriend". I don't have a boyfriend BUT I am living my life going places with family. He is so low on himself. I am TIRED of doing everything for this M. I feel that he cheated and he would not even meet me 50percent of the way back to R.
We are still in the D process, but he keeps leeting me know where he is, who he's seeing and what he is doing everyday. Do you think he is manipulating me? I feel sorry for him sometimes. No evidence. No confession. Just my gut and his verbals, etc. I am all over the place these days.
I feel like the other side (single mom--D) is calling me. I love him. I love him with all my heart. I habd picked him. He loves songs, hobbies that I do. We even finish each others sentences. I need physical contact. He can't give it to me. Who knows of he ever will.
I also struggle with the triggers nearby. The woods by our house is where he had sex in the car with her. You should see him when I mention how I'd like to go to those woods and walk around.
I have struggled with knowing if I can do it. If I can R and swallow all that he did! It hurts so bad. I am back to depression. I was so strong when I filed. Now, I am in mourning again. Sometimes I think; hope for R. I have given him hints on healing and recovery but he only goes to weekly IC. He says he is not in a 12-step and is not compulsive. Mind you, he has not been diagnosed a SA or seen a CSAT.
torn2bits, I hear ya on the nail biting thing. Only do it in regard to this stuff, when Im more upset (like now - I was biting mine when I read your post lol).
Im sorry you are feeling so bad. Not getting a confession would drive me insane.
I've been reading alot of threads, in different forums. My story is in my profile. My WH has never been diagnosed as an SA, and he gets very pissy when I have mentioned it in the past. I just dont know what to do. We are in MC, but he lies to both me and our therapist so....
I've posted in the General forum, I just feel so lost. Right now he's not physically involved with the OW, but they are still talking as "friends". I wonder if I'll spent the rest of my life questioning everything he says to me, and wondering how much is the truth.....
Me - BW 41
Him - WH 49
M - 16 years, together for 21 years
D day -w
Its only the minimum in my book. What I would say to you is figure out what you WILL and will NOT accept. Is it ok for you to be married to him while he still has a girlfriend? These are the things I asked myself. I know I can't go on with lies. Not even my coworkers are allowed to lie to me and I am going to stay with my WH who lies...I don't think so.
If your WH is not in some kind of recovery; whether that be IC to find out why he cheated (if he is not a SA) or full recovery for SA, then things are going to stay the same.
This is the best advice I received here on SI. What is he doing? Is he giving you what YOU need to stay with him? What is in YOUR best interests for YOUR life and YOUR future. So many times we get wrapped up in the coupleship. We have many years with them. Now is the time to be an individual.
When 2 healthy people come together; that's when R can really be successful. My family won't even allow him at family parties. They say they just can't look at him. I remain a good person even though he has done what he has done. I see no reason to be angry all the time or carry hatred around.
I wish you peace. Find out what you want for your future and do it. You can't control him. Only you and your actions.I know its not easy. I say do something. Make something change. Call him on his deviations from what you want in a husband and find your voice! (I know, I should take my own advice).
Okay..here goes again. I am seeing a CSAT due to the fact that I found out just how much my H visits adult book stores and watching porn.
I want to confront him on this but do not want to reveal my sources. H does not think he has a problem. The IC he is seeing is not CSAT and while he is helping H deal with childhood issues, I have seen H lie about his porn usage and say that the porn is helping him stay faithful!
The CSAT I am seeing now, suggests confronting but telling him how I know. She says a relationship can't thrive on secrets and while my H has his secret so do I.
I told her that I don't have a problem with honesty and cards on the table however, I can't reveal my sources. I have made the mistake of jumping too soon in the past and I have always been the type of person that tells everything while he tells little.
So, my question to you is how have any of you confronted without revealing and what did you say?
Man, I wish I didn't lose that other post I wrote..I said things so much better then!! LOL
Oh well, I am glad someone suggested that I go to a CSAT, what a difference it makes. She gets the talk and while H has not been diagnosed officially with SA or anything..She sees the same red flags I do.
He has many FOO issues that definitely have affected him and I am clear in my head that porn is an addiction for him.
I just want to figure out what to do from this point. How did you establish boundaries? What were the boundaries? How did you handle sex with your partner?
I feel a bit lost. Not destitute bur really lost. This is a shitty thing to be dealing with and it is just so readily available every where now and even for free.
What is the world coming to?
Well, any suggestions/tips and 2x4's are appreciated!
PS: I like the CSAT but is there anything I should be asking or telling that would help me know if she is on the ball?
How much reading on SA have you done?
My experience is a bit different than many other SO's. So, my boundaries are different. I also went for the jugular immediately, in terms of boundaries. I prefer to think about it as helping my husband hit rock bottom faster.
After spending more time learning about SA, you'll figure out what you will and won't tolerate in a relationship. Your boundaries will become clear to you. Just be sure, whatever boundaries you do choose, that you can follow up on them, immediately.
Not following up on your boundaries teaches your addict spouse that your words have no meaning.
For example, a boundary of "relapse and I will divorce you" likely won't work for a SAH spouse who has been out of the work world for 10 years and has no personal savings to set up another household with and retain a lawyer.
As for the sex, that's whatever you feel comfortable doing. Some aren't comfortable with sex until there is evidence of recovery. Some aren't comfortable with sex at all. Many will suggest a period of abstaining from any sexual activity for 90 days, as part of the beginning of the recovery process. My husband and I went through a bunch of HB. My husband's CSAT had no problems with that.
[This message edited by IRN2006 at 8:21 PM, September 10th (Saturday)]
What is in YOUR best interests for YOUR life and YOUR future. So many times we get wrapped up in the coupleship. We have many years with them. Now is the time to be an individual
Very good point. I know one of my main issues is that even when I know what I should to, what I need to do for me and for my M - I chicken out and don't do it! Uggh, I get so mad at myself! Right now we are actually getting along pretty good, and h'es becoming more involved with activities with our kids. If he wasnt still talking to the OW I'd be perfectly happy with our relationship. But, he is talking to her and I can see that slippery sloap looming on the horizion. Right now, Im working on finding my spine (seems I've misplaced mine) and in the mean time I'm getting my financial ducks in a row. Putting money into savings, getting things fixed around the house, etc. At this point in time, Im not happy with him still talking to her but I am in a much better place financially and in regards to the kids. So I will keep working on me, keeps saving up money and if he can't or wont come around then I'll be in much better shape to be on my own.
I never imagined I could hurt this bad and still look the same. On the outside anyway. I still love him, I just wish he could see what he's doing to me.
Oh, and I got the whole "Well Im using the internet porn to satisfy me since you wont. Its better than cheating". Well, thats was his line before the A. I do have a keylogger on the computer, but I told him I knew about the porn because I can run this anti-spyware program everyday and everyday it would pick up tracking cookies from porn sites. So thats how I explained that I knew without telling him everything. In theroy I agree that my spying on his is keeping secrets and in a good marriage its not healthy for either spouse to have secrets. BUT at this time, I dont trust him to tell me the truth and this is the only way I have to know what is really going on. What a mess!
Hugs to you! Infidelity is tough to deal with all by itself, never mind adding SA to it. If you havenít already started, find an IC for yourself and see that person regularly. If money is an issue, try looking into your local government resources (health depts. Often have low cost counselors) or ask at a few local churches for therapy resources. If you truly think your WH might be an SA find a certified sex addiction therapist (CSAT) for yourself and see that therapist for help. If the CSAT feels your WH might be an addict it would benefit you to see the CSAT regularly for yourself regardless of whether or not your WH sees a CSAT himself. CSATs cost money, but good ones are worth the money, IMO.
How did you establish boundaries? What were the boundaries? How did you handle sex with your partner?
Iím afraid to say that I donít always recognize what Iím doing as setting boundaries, but Iíve insisted on doing things for myself regardless of my SAís opinion, for ex: continuing therapy, attending regular 12 step meetings, going out to lunch/dinner with program friends, calling and talking to family for emotional support, sleeping separately when Iím very upset, etc. My therapists tell me that doing these things are setting boundaries and prioritizing taking care of myself regardless of my SAís trying to control me. I bought books on boundaries recommended here, especially Boundaries by Cloud & Townsend, but I have to be honest and tell you I've not read them. Don't set boundaries and then not enforce them because the SA will use your lack of enforcement against you.
As for sex, weíre still sexual together despite my sitch and my attempts to sleep separately (which always fail because Iím unready yet I keep trying). Donít follow my example, here, Ďcuz it isnít working for me. The sex itself is physically fine as long as I remember itís *sex* not making love, remember heís totally in denial regardless of what he claims. Being sexual with him troubles me and confuses me but I canít face this right now.
For the longest time I confronted SAWH as soon as I found anything- which is a mistake as I wouldíve found out more if Iíd shut my mouth and waited for more info. If it helps, my CSAT told me similar things to what your CSAT told you, but it took me a very long time to try and follow through and when I did I found more shit so I ignored what the CSAT said and have been doing my own thing. *shrug*Iíve confronted SAWH both at home and in front of ICs and priests and SAWH has lied to all of us. IMO, follow your instincts.
[This message edited by SabinatheOwl at 10:36 AM, September 12th (Monday)]
So, I started reading this book over the weekend (god bless Kindle). It is sooooo good. For the first time I feel like someone has heard me for the first time. I'm almost done reading. I wish it went into some more details on the healing part, but I guess we each have to find our exact path... the guidelines are helpful.
But I am having an unusual reaction for me. I am SOOOOOOOOOOOO angry!!!!!!!
I can barely be civil to my H. I realize the ongoing trama he has caused and how selfish his recovery has been. To top it off, I got home from work again to find him napping. Napping!!!!!! I'd love to be napping!!!!! But I come home to dishes in the sink, laundry in the machines and general crap all over the house. House work has always been an issue in our marriage, but I just can't deal with it any more. No sex, no housework, no income, no apology, no emotional support.... what the hell is he good for anyways????? I'm trying really, really hard not to become a raging lunatic until our therapist is home from vacation, but I'm not hopeful.
I don't want to be married to a SA anymore. I don't want to be the responsible one. I'm tired of being an adult.
I could have written that. And I'm only three months out. I cannot imagine dealing with it as long as you have, with children that know. You are really an inspiration to me, because honestly it seems like every day something like that happens and I want to pack it in. I have that book, I need to read it again now that I'm not so shell-shocked. Hand in there mama.
I read that book, cried all the time for myself and all other women that go through this and try to save the marriage and put up with all the lies, slip ups etc.
Since DDay no 2 my husband never stopped crying, Guilt, remorse, loss of marriage, loss of a picture of himself as a good and honest man, distroyed life, family, who knows. He thinks that makes him different, he is not a bastard, which i think he is because the bastard would pack up and go. He wants to be with us to try and make our lives better, try to fix what he's done, does not want divorce, wants to make it up to me. He does almost everything around the house, i get flowers, gifts, trips to special places etc. Did your spouses show that kind of remorse, does that really make him different? I think once they are caught a lot of them would cry and beg because they realize that a life filled with hookers is worse that life with somebody you once loved and shared many years with.
I am in a very bad place still. Simply can't find anything nice in life. HOpe that changes...
I got home from work again to find him napping. Napping!!!!!! I'd love to be napping!!!!! But I come home to dishes in the sink, laundry in the machines and general crap all over the house. House work has always been an issue in our marriage, but I just can't deal with it any more. No sex, no housework, no income, no apology, no emotional support.... what the hell is he good for anyways?????
I say rage away, I would be totally pissed off too. Unless he is physically disabled there is no reason he can't get off his lazy ass and get something done around the house. Of course, my WH is an electrician and yet I've had an outlet in the "new bathroom" that needs to be wired up - Ive been waiting almost 10 years for him to get around to doing that. The only housework my WH helps with is laundry. I do everything else, including all the yard work. The only upside in my case is that WH makes good money at his job.
If you truly think your WH might be an SA find a certified sex addiction therapist (CSAT) for yourself and see that therapist for help.
I woke up about 2am sat morning with a terrible back ache so I got up to get some meds. I wasnt trying to be quiet, but apparently WH didnt hear me because when I got to the kitchen I could see throught the archway into the livingroom and here he was -scrolling through his fav porn site. He never did hear me, I just got my meds from the cabinet and went back to bed. Im not sure if he is a "true addict" but at the very least his porn usuage is not healthy. I will look into seeing if there is a CSAT in our area. Our money is limited and Ins is a battle to get them to cover anything. *sigh*
Did your spouses show that kind of remorse, does that really make him different?
In my case, WH hasn't shown alot of remorse though I think he feels it. Now Im not sure if he feels bad because of what its done to me or because he got caught and can't play around as much since Im more aware of what he's up to. In all the years we've been together I bet I can count on one hand the number of times he has ever said "Im sorry" to me, for anything. For me, it would make a big difference if he really came to me and said that he was sorry for hurting me and asked for my forgivness. Its like he just assumes that I will. Do you think your WH is sincere or is it just him kissing up to get out of the dog house?
Uggh, I hate this! Even when they say all the right things, how do you ever know if its from the heart?
When we were expecting our second child, we went to a birth refresher course at the hospital for subsequent births. I thought the people there would be like me, had given birth before but at a different hospital, just there to get the info you need that is particular to that location. Boy was I wrong.
There were five other couples, and all but one of them were VBAC (wanted a vaginal birth after having a c-section). The nurse running the class wanted to share our birthing stories. The vbac couples were excited about hearing our stories, because they wanted to prepare for their experience.
My first birth was a horrific experience, basically everything that could go wrong, without me or the baby dying, did. I did not want to scare these poor people, so I tried to give a very brief summary. The nurse and the vbac-ers pressed for details, and I tried to sidestep. Finally WH gave the whole sordid story and freaked everyone out, LOL.
So I'm a little worried about this class. I'm afraid we will go in, and it will just be guys addicted to porn or something and we will be the extremes. Or maybe everyone else has hit rock bottom and are/were far worse, and they will freak us out. I can't just relax and be grateful we have resources like this available to us. Ugh.