No personal experience with those, so no advice. Two women in my therapy group have gone & they said they learned a lot, but the jury's out for their SAs. One of the SAWH's continues to act out, but both have sponsors and are working a program.
It all just sucks. I hear you. As for what books say-- my SAWH waves $h!t in my face once in a while & says stuff like, "this proves I'm_________ and you're _______________." So good luck with your SAWH. My advice, don't get all worked up about it. I did & it totally backfired on me. He uses that against me all the time.
"Live a life not an apology." Edward R.Murrow
"I can be changed by what happens to me but I refuse to be reduced by it."
I hope you guys have a great weekend! Sabina I can relate to exactly what you are talking about. When he is around I can't relax and damn I work all week and want to just have some peace.
Ya know they just don't get it. My SAWH knows we are getting D. I told him that. He was upset because I had a visit with the kids today and took them out to eat. He said it would have been nice if I brought him something back. Why in God's name would I bring him something back!
He does something bad like sext the OW and then he wants to get the battery for my watch and is saying good nite.
They are ridiculous children. I just can't wait to have some space when he leaves again. Jeez it was so much better not having to wonder what he is doing, seeing or looking at.
He has been seeing a CSAT once a week for about 2 months. That is all the 'help' he is getting.
He is currently away on a business trip. I logged onto his profile on an inappropriate, sexually explicit site and found there was some activity there. It seems to me that this is where a sponsor should come in. That, when he is away, alone in a hotel room with his laptop and internet access, that he be able to CALL someone for support to get past the urges/desires to engage in SA behaviors...such as visiting inappropriate sites.
I have a good web filter at home, so he has no access to stuff there. But, when he's away...
So, should he or should he not be in a 12-step program?
Thanks for your help.
Yes, it is my opinion (and only my opinion based on experience) that a SA should be in 12 step. They need that accountability partner, as you mentioned. It also doesn't sound like he is moving into recovery yet, if his ONLY recovery activity is merely seeing a CSAT once a week.
My H has been in recovery for 20 months, and sees his CSAT, is working the steps, does RN, and attends a CSAT led therapy group. Yes, that sounds like a lot. He also listens to recovery podcasts, journals, and does workbook activities.
Just acknowledging that he is a SA is NOT enough. My H acknowledged that over 10 years ago. He whiteknuckled at times, he saw a few IC's, but his addiction continued to escalate. I would be very concerned about his business travel. My H did not go on any business trips alone in the first year. He did go on one this year, but he was at a point in his recovery that I saw evidence that he was not acting out, was making long term changes, and addressing FOO issues.
I know that some will disagree with me, but I do not have any sort of filters. My H has a Masters in Information Systems. His whole job is computers. I don't feel it is my job to prevent him from accessing something inappropriate. He owns his recovery. I own mine.
I also recommend S-Anon for you, if you have a local group. There is a lot of recovery that needs to happen for YOU. Taking care of YOU regardless of his recovery is the most important thing you can do. There are NO guarantees with SA.
My husband didn't utilize a 12 step group. He shopped around at a few different meetings and attended 5 meetings in total, and didn't find a group that worked for him.
My husband's CSAT said he needed to go to 6 meetings before deciding.
I think recovery is a deeply personal thing and not all recovery tools work for each person. My husband's recovery is not illegitimate because he doesn't attend 12 step meetings or use RN. SA is highly individualized. Meaning, we can't make sweeping generalizations about how they act out. We also can't make sweeping generalizations about recovery tools.
Simply talking to a CSAT isn't enough, though. Is your husband reading the Carnes books and working through "A Gentle Path Through the 12 Steps?"
I'm wondering why the CSAT wouldn't work with your husband to prepare a plan on how to deal with the urges in a trip setting. Actually, that's what I'd want to know in your situation.
Do you know if the CSAT is a CBT therapist or a "talk" therapist?
Right or wrong, I have mostly washed my hands of it all. My saWH can do what he wants. I do continue to monitor my saWH at home to ensure that my kids never get exposed to his 'interests'. I checked that site while he was away to see if there was any progress in terms of him developing self-monitoring and self-control of his own behaviors...or to try to determine if there was any real change in him. I need to know this because he lives in our home...and I need to know if there is a chance he might bring his behaviors back into our home.
Overall, he does have more self-control in that he has drastically limited the behavior...at home at least. But, it seems his 'interests' remain as stong as always.
I am just sick and tired of it all. He is Mr Wonderful Husband around the house ever since I nearly filed for D in early April. And, I have been strugling to determine if he is being genuine or if he has just kicked up his act. I cannot help but feel that he is just creating a smoke screen...manipulating me...and that nothing has changed in terms of his priorities...with his SA interests remaining #1 to him. But, I guess that's par for the course with SA. I shouldn't be surprised really. This is what it is always going to be. The never ending question: is this genuine or is this just a facade in which to hide the SA behind?
Thanks for 'listening' to my vent.
IRN2008: What is a CBT therapist? All I know about his CSAT is that she did complete all the modules to get certified and that she has experience working at the Keystone Center which is local addictions facility.
I am continuing the D because he just isn't doing anything but weekly IC with a 12-step expert. When I mention SA or the affair, he denies. He is till very angry and abusive to me. Yet, on certain days he is wanting to go to the show together and back to the facade. No more!
I am so sorry for your situation.
Honestly, my saWH's pristine treatment of me has been his saving grace because he IS so easy to live with ~ kind, respectful, considerate ... and we parent well together, thus allowing me to fulfill something of utmost importance to me: giving my kids the best start in life in an intact home envioronment and with parenting/dynamics which I approve of. Despite all the 'ugly' which lies just beneath the surface, family life is very good. And, of course, this weighs heavy on my mind each time I near the end of my rope and go to file for D. If my saWH was openly unkind, disrespectful, etc, toward me, I would have certainly filed for D long ago...due to the obvious negative effect and damage to the kids. As it is, the kids are doing well, which makes pulling the plug that much harder. So, since your saWH is angry and abusive toward you, I hope your D is a speedy process. I wish you a flood of a sense of dignity, and the restoration of self-respect which is certainly what you deserve.
I thought and hoped that my saWH's 'wonderful' behavior was a reflection of his sense of new freedom from the grips of his SA. That this produced a kind of joy in him to be freeing himself of his demons. But, upon discovering a secret, encrypted flash drive which contains all kinds of porn/images/video/text/etc which he has been accessing in secret during the early AM hours on the weekends, I realize that really he has only gone further underground with the SA interests. And, then discovering his return to that site while he was away on a business trip, has me thinking that all this Mr Wonderful Husband stuff is just an facade. He thinks he has me fooled into believing there has been real change in him, when really he just has adapted to the web filter by getting his 'fix' via flashdrive. And, the CSAT, well, who knows what he tells her. He is a very believable actor. I think he goes so that it looks like he is committed to gaining sobriety. But, I now believe he has no intention. I just don't know what else to think.
Anyhow, I may be right behind you with D. I won't file just yet, as there are a couple of big events I want to get past. But, come mid-August, I am going to re-assess my situation.
I feel like my saWH has made a fool out of me in the ways he thinks he is tricking me...manipulating me...and that he has me fooled that real change is occuring inside due to the evidence ~ weekly CSAT sessions, abstainance from porn/etc...except he doesn't know that I have figured out what he's up to. I am angry that he chooses to trick and manipulate me cause he thinks he can get away with it. Well, I won't be made a fool of for much longer.
I wish you all the best. You deserve it!!
I think we both knew that if he wasn't so kind outside the bedroom I would not have stuck by him.
I think for them it's a compensation mechanism.
I think my saWH is being SO nice, kind, generous, considerate, etc, because he is banking on that kind of manipulation working as a tool to secure his life as he knows it (image intact, sees kids everyday, no financial loss, etc). I think he knows that if he ever were to be mean or disrespectful, that his gig would be up...that I would have zero tollerance for it...and we would wind up D'd, which carries way too much hardship and loss for HIM. It's easy to be kind...and the payoff is huge for HIM.
OR...maybe he IS being genuine. I can't tell. I don't know. That is the problem...when you are married to someone who has demonstrated such skill with deception, manipulation, acting, and the ability to create a seamless facade.
I have eyes wide open. I trust nothing. Just taking it day to day.
I am 100% sure that is true,too. One of the things about my ex is that he is very manipulative.
I also think it's a way to make you look like the bad guy...He can tell his friends "I do XYZ for my wife and ABC around the house, but she won't stop being angry."
Yup, they can then say 'look at all I do...and how ungrateful you are' or they can claim to be 'trying' and/or 'working' on the marriage as if selfless reasons are the driving force. It's unfortunate, but THIS is the framework of doubt and suspicion which HE created by being 'nice' all during his LTA, etc.
Well, I am not hanging my hat on the 'nice', but on what I discover by monitoring and snooping. There in lies the truth of where his mind/heart are. And, that puts all the 'nice' in question for sure.
My son graduated from high school last Friday. I can't believe I have 2 out of school now. Anyway, I was "blessed" to have to stand right by MOW until the doors of the sanctuary for baccelaurate service were opened. Ugh... I worked my way so I was in front so I wouldn't have to look at her. Unremorseful SAWH turned facing her and waved and said "hi" to the person behind her. When I told him that I felt hurt that he did that, he claims "he didn't know she was behind us".
For graduation, I didn't see her during the service. I went up on stage and handed my son his diploma and gave him a hug (perk of being a school employee). Afterwards though, in the crowded vestibule where everyone was taking pics there she was with her daughter. Ugh... I tried, I really tried. I felt like a crazy caged animal that needed to escape. So what does my unremorseful SAWH say to me, "If you can't stand it, just walk away from here".
Monday I had counseling again and talked about the anger and rage that I have. I have so much anger at SAWH (and at OW) but I've been told by our last MC that SAWH can't "mentally handle it". Which that just pisses me off even more. Like I had a choice about whether I could handle hearing that SAWH betrayed me with MOW and has done countless other things that I don't even know about yet, but yet I can't express my anger "because he can't handle it" Makes me angry just typing it out.
Afterwards I went to my first S-Anon group meeting. I cried alot. I wish there was one closer to where I live. It took me 45 minutes to get home. I feel bad about my 10 year old at home who keeps texting me about when am I going to come home.
Today as I was doing my hair and make-up reflecting I was feeling lonely and down. You know I really miss going out and just having a good fun time. Talking, laughing, hand-holding and kissing. I could really use a good make out session... for no other reason than just because. But then I got to thinking about SAWH and wondered if I'll ever feel like being like that with him. It disgusts me knowing where his lips were. I wonder if his betrayals will always be the "elephant in the room".
[This message edited by momoffive at 2:10 PM, June 16th (Thursday)]
Just catching up as we are away for bro's wedding...trigger much?
Anyway, just before leaving I literally buried my marriage. WS and I buried a picture from our wedding at the cliff where we had the ceremony. He balled the whole time, said he was sorry, and I don't know if I can believe anything he said...but I forgave him anyway.
So, now a couple of weeks have passed and I am still stuck. Maybe I didn't really forgive him, but meant it in the moment.
I cannot get over the feeling of being slimed! I was wild as a girl, but nothing like the stuff he is into. Being exposed to his world "gucked up" what was left of my innocence. I look at people in the grocery store and wonder, "Do you know what people are capapble of? Are you one of them?"
I just feel so dirty. I know it is his stuff, but does anyone else feel this way? How do you clean your soul?
I don't know if my chicken will ever become an eagle. But rest assured, I'm going to be a phoenix. Nevermind that I am still in the ashes stage of the process.
My kids are on egg shells. Not an environment for them. I love him still but he is just taking it all out on me. He may get real at a later date. He still has qualities that I married him for. Remember, SA are master manipulators.
Needless to say, this has caused a huge upset in our family. Lots of insecurity, not sure if we can keep the house, what if we loose health insurance, etc. We have been pretty open with the kids as they are 20, 18 and 16. We have talked about SA in family therapy and at home.
But I am wondering.... does anyone know of any good resources (books articles websites) that would be appropriate for a teen audience. I think the Carnes material is a bit more graphic than I would like them exposed to at this point. My daughter (not surprisingly) has a lot of misinformation. I answer her questions as they come up, but I'm sure there are questions she doesn't ask.
Thank for your help.
I am in a bizarre situation. I have been separated for 4 1/2 years and divorced for about three. However, because we have kids together, we still sort of have a life together. As you all know, because many of you are still trying to steer a course through this crazy sea.
It is hard because after all this time, the ex still is in denial and blames me. I wasn't having enough sex with him, so that was his invitation to stray. No apologies, no regrets on his part. He reasons that lots of people are in open marriages and that there is nothing wrong. He wanted me to accept that as a part of our marriage. Add the porn, add the swinger clubs where orgies take place. I couldn't go down that road. Apparently I am at fault for that. According to what he told the counselor tonight.
We are actually in counseling together because our kids have finally met the main swinger/open marriage woman he has been with for the last 9 years. Her husband committed suicide in October 2008, after being betrayed by her because she would not stop seeing my ex. That suicidal man came out here shortly before he killed himself, to my house to drop off more pics, and then contacted me shortly thereafter, totally distraught and broken.
Fast forward to today. The kids are confused and hurt because they didn't know about her until she moved out here in the Fall. I told them who she was when I found out she was living in their room at their dad's place, but not all the nasty details, just that she was involved with their dad when our marriage broke down. They didn't know about that before at all. Their dad told them a lie about who she was. That was one of many lies they have heard the past while.
I think this woman has mental problems, and so I am really concerned for our kids. I found lots of very hard core porn pics of her, the ex, and other men on the home computer almost five years ago. What sort of woman goes down on the floor and lets a room full of men masturbate and ejaculate all over her? Sorry if that is TMI. That was just one of the pics I found of her, on the home computer way back then. She is not normal, and it makes me sick to think she is around our kids.
I told the psychologist that I am worried about my kids due to this relationship between their dad and her. Tonight, the ex came to counseling with me, because he wants to control me. He stopped the kids from seeing her a few weeks ago, which got them upset because they like this couselor. In order to get his permission back, I had to go to counseling with him tonight. And again, I heard how I was to blame, and how I threatened to send these pics to all of his friends, family, etc. Again, lies. I had the pics for six whole weeks before he went to court to get a restraining order against me. If I was so vindictive, I would have done such a thing right away. But I'm not that sick.
He wants us to be friendly with each other and act like nothing is wrong here. Because in his mind, nothing is wrong at all, except for me and my narrow-minded attitudes.
I really hope the psychologist saw through him. He can be so charming, although she has seen the not-so-charming side last week, when he called and yelled abuse at her.
However, I am so stressed over all of this. My neck muscles are so tight that I am getting dizzy spells. Not good, huh?
Thanks for listening. This can be such a nightmare sometimes, can't it?
Mom of three
DD: September 23, 2005
Divorced April 10/08