I'm trying to get totally to the point where I accept that he is never going to be there, emotionally, for me. That he's capable of it, but not willing to face his own demons to do so.
I was feeling happy but your unhappiness has hurt my feelings and now I feel unhappy.
Laura - You are my hero!! Way to go!!
m3 - Happy Belated Birthday to Baby Paddy!! Hope she got to eat all the pink flowers off her cake! (Those were my favorites!)
"...it was his formula that gave the cereal super-strength; he sets off to the lab to get it, taking the Dean's beautiful but slow vintage car. When he finally gets there, he is confronted by Mrs. Stongish and ten of her goons."
turns out i never loved the real pfm, because i didn't know him....i loved who i thought he was, who i thought he could be and should be....but not him....the real him.....
The difference in my case is that she is doing the work to expose the true her to both me and herself.
My neighbor has been supporting her 5 kids on her own forever. Bought her own house, etc. She keeps telling me that no one is really happy in thier marriages and look at WH's visits as "my job". Act nice for his visits, do not make love to him, be cordial, and then I'm free until the next time.
and i think you get the award for speed reading...
Your FWW is working so hard on herself. I admire that she is willing to do the hard, hard work that it is taking to find out who she really is. I'm betting that underneath all that pain she is a remarkable woman. I hope she gets to the point that she can love herself as much as you love her.
Thank you strongish, I needed a boost tonight. I keep finding crap in my marshmallows and lollipops.
FWH is away for a few days. He has gone to visit his nephew who had the kidney transplant. So I am home alone - just me and my faithful old dog.
I need to think out loud so I suppose the tribe gets it tonight.
Everything is going well. He is so attentive and thoughtful, remorseful, tells me constantly that he is sorry and will spend the rest of his life trying to make me happy. He calls me often when he is at work. I always know where he is. He buys me flowers and gifts. He has cried when I have been upset. We go out together weekly and the sex is good. I haven't worn my rings for months (he has never commented) but yesterday he referred to this in a non threatening way. I said maybe I would like some new ones. He said I can understand that. He then suggested that maybe we should get "Married" again. We then discussed renewing our vows next year. It's our 30th anniversary at the end of Oct 2012.
I told him I had been looking at EMDR and explained it to him. The closest practitioner is 200 miles+ away (but near where the kids live). He said I should try it if I thought it would help and that he would come with me when he could (when he wasn't working).
We have discussed lots of aspects of our future - retirement and travel plans, moving from the farm to a smaller place etc.
BUT and this is the problem. I still believe he is lying about how many OWs there were. I KNOW he seriously considered leaving me for OW3 (fog?). He says he didn't. He told me repeatedly that he screwed OW2 often at the beginning (once or twice a week) but only once every month or two for the next few years. She tells me it was twice a week for 4 years (until he started with OW3). She tells me he screwed her a half dozen times during the year he was with OW3 - he tells me only once.
(The silly bitch also said she felt so "betrayed" by this and couldn't understand why he did it!)
I think he is still lying. I had a meltdown the night before last and told him that I couldn't R without the truth. I begged him to be honest. He continued with "But I don't know. I don't remember" for every question I asked. He said if OW2 says it was twice a week for 4 yrs then it must have been. He doesn't remember!?????
I believe he is a compulsive liar. He lies to protect himself and to make himself look good. I have always known he was dishonest but could live with what I thought were "little white lies". What I need to do now is work out if I can R knowing he still hasn't been honest with me. I think that maybe I can but I'm not sure. Will it just keep eating away at me? I've told him repeatedly I just want the truth. But I think he is too afraid to tell me in case it is too much for me. I suspect it is so bad he thinks I will leave him if he comes clean.
So, the question is can I get past the belief that he will never tell me the truth about what he did and can I R without it? I would have to say he is now the ideal H in every way. Should I give up the "ideal" H because of this?? I don't want to. I think he can make me happy now. I know he wants to. Is that enough??? Can I live with the lies about the past??
Anyway, really thinking out loud here my friends but would appreciate your thoughts.
Love to all
So, I got the story in a combination of ways.
When we were separated for 6 months right after d-day,that was when my husband was the most motivated to spill the beans.
He was extremely remorseful and very focused on saving the marriage and would often answer the most embarassing, intimate questions that I asked.
He even gave me a timeline of the 5 yr LTA.
Dates, what happened (sexually) and where.
You see because the affair was so work related almost all of the encounters were work related-at conferences, training sessions, etc. and those happened every year at around the same time-for ex. a 5 day conference every winter.
So, it was a bit easier for him to try to piece together the timeline.
Was it helpful for me?
Was it extremely painful to see it all in black and white?
I also got a lot of information from the MOWs husband- he gave me copies of very graphic emails that spanned a number of years.
That also helped me to piece together the story.
Now...as to his saying that he can't remember.
Some of that excuse may be true.
My husband was drinking heavily during the affair years and definitely drinking during the time he spent with the MOW because she is an alcoholic and drinking buddy.
So, I do believe that his memory is not great for that time period.
Then, when you are doing something that deep down you know is wrong and you feel guilty about-you try to block that out of your mind as well. So, that can account for some of the memory loss.
And finally,some of it may be the fact that he istrying to spare you more hurt.
But, you need to explain to him that the sooner that he tells you all of the graphic details ,just gets it over as opposed to trickle truth...the sooner you can begin to really heal from this betrayal.
And so will he.
Its a matter of ripping off that Bandaid in one quick jerk as opposed to the slow agony of pulling it off slowly.
The WS have spent their whole lives lying and being untruthful and keeping things inside so they don't realize how wonderfully freeing telling the truth will be.
The truth will set you free.
It was true for us.
I even believe that telling my family and friends about the LTA was freeing and for us was the right thing to do.
It forced my husband to hit bottom even quicker when he realized that everyone knew how far he had fallen.
In the past when I covered up for his drinking exploits with his buddies etc.,( I never told his parents, my parents or children how bad things could get.)But this time I vowed-no more secrets!
That this time it was not going to happen that way.
I was tired of keeping secrets.
And, I can't begin to tell you how that decision has worked out so well for us.
My husand apologized to our children and other family members for the hurt he caused me.
My children have grown closer to each other and to us during this ordeal and have grown to love, accept, and appreciate their father again.
They see all of the positive changes he has made in his life and see how well he treats me now.
They are proud of his sobriety and the fact that he continues to go to AA for support.
I think it was a life lesson for them...that a marriage can survive a real trial.
Laura, I also want to recommend that you do get new rings and honor that in some way! It really worked to help me in the healing process.
My husband moved back hom on our 30th wedding anniversary. I decided that I needed a brand new memory to try to reclaim that date! So, we had a smal recomittment ceremony in a minister's office, exchanged the new rings, and left for an overnight stay at a romantic B&B.
Whenever I think of my anniversary I think of that day now. I do not think of the years we lost.
So, I say go for it.
I agree with all you have said. Have tried to explain to him repeatedly how important the truth is. The fact is I really do think it is so bad he thinks I can't deal with it. Maybe he is right. I keep wondering what if there were dozens? Who knows? I found out about 3 over 16 yrs but have strong suspicions about another 22 yrs ago. If I learnt about 4 after all this time I believe it is highly likely I missed others. And let's face it - he overlapped OW2 and OW3. Perhaps because he knows the truth is so horrifying he can't even start with the basics - the ones I know about.
It's so frustrating. Everything else is so good. I really love how we get on now. I also believe that he really did love me all along - it was just his selfishness that led him to where he went. He stayed with me through all of them and dropped OW2 and OW3 like hot potatoes when I found out. I want the truth but if I keep pushing I am afraid I will damage what we have. I want to heal as quickly as possible - so maybe I need to try to let it go?
Perhaps I need to go back to OW1. He told me the "story" about his relationship with her. The only way I can verify is through her. If she tells me the same story I would be more confident. He told me this some months ago so if they colluded she would be unlikely to remember the details of the lies now.
The problem is there is no one else to ask. He was very careful, as were his women. No one else knew. OW1 divorced her H at the time (15 yrs ago), OW2 left hers - and he had no idea and still doesn't. OW3's H had no idea and is happily divorced from her.
Rambling here and thinking aloud.
Thanks for your response
[This message edited by Laura28 at 4:50 AM, March 22nd (Tuesday)]
I love your story. I love your courage, you FWH's strength and determination to change and the fact that you still come here to help us.
Thank you for being here
Laura: The OW in my sitch was a coworker too, but unlike NJGal, it's almost impossible for him to remember EVERY time it happened because they saw each other about 3x/wk every week and while he denies having sex with her on each & every one of those occasions, he admits that it was at least 1x/wk and sometimes more. (Sounds a lot like every time he saw her to me...)
Anyway, I do believe that men do not think of these things the same way that we do. Especially when they are doing something wrong and don't like to think about it. Plus it wasn't important to them to remember the info at the time, kwim? So the info might well be lost, as far as the frequency. But, it's hard to believe that he doesn't remember how many other women are out there.
I pushed & pushed my H for the truth. And, while I know I don't have everything, I know I have enought. Hearing that they held hands, etc. was stuff I didn't need to know. It really made things worse & didn't serve any legit purpose.
So, ask yourself, why you want to know more. Is it because if more is discovered, you don't want to R? Something else? I don't know, but this falls squarely in the "careful what you wish for " category.
Peace to all and let's hope there's a cute court officer in court this morning.
Thanks for your thoughts
So, ask yourself, why you want to know more. Is it because if more is discovered, you don't want to R? Something else? I don't know, but this falls squarely in the "careful what you wish for " category
I wish I knew. I think I'm looking for the last step to prove he's really (as we say in OZ) "fair dinkum". I don't think anything would make me change my mind about R except another affair.
But, it's hard to believe that he doesn't remember how many other women are out there.
He swears there are none but my gut says differently or maybe it's just paranoia?
I guess I just want to get it all over with. I'm afraid that if I "let it go" and find out more later it will all come crashing down and I won't be able to handle it. eg a few weeks ago I confided in my SIL (his brother's wife) and was devastated when she told me she had heard rumours. I never expected that and it really hit me hard. I don't want that sort of thing to keep happening KWIM??
let's hope there's a cute court officer in court this morning.
Have fun today
I am still waiting for FWH to tell me the truth. He hasn’t and he never will. I had TT from day one. He did a timeline, but 5yrs is a long time and he spent most of it trying to keep it all buried. It was helpful and painful at the same time. But I knew that he hadn’t told me everything. I, as Mrs Forensic Criminologist, had been snooping and digging, meeting MOW, meeting BH, comparing notes, comparing dates, comparing fucking everything. After the timeline, I decided to fill in my own, finally coming up with MY truth. And that’s it. I have it all written down as a kind of marriage history document. Every year from 1976 to 2009 with a conclusion at the end. 26 pages. He has never read it (hidden and password protected ) but the day will come when I’ll show it to him.
The most recent spanner in the works has been suspected contact between them sometime between Christmas and end of Feb. She was in Sydney in Feb, visiting her girls. What it was, I don’t know. I confronted FWH twice over it – of course he denied. Don’t know why I expected anything else.
Hugs to the rest of the tribe.
Anyway, I do believe that men do not think of these things the same way that we do. Especially when they are doing something wrong and don't like to think about it.
You ain’t never gonna get “The Truth” hon.
Now I gotta run. >>>>>>>>>>>
You ain’t never gonna get “The Truth” hon.
No I suppose not. I just need to decide what to do about it!!
Give yourself some time to get used to this relatively new dynamic in your M. You are rightfully cautious, but pay attention to what he's doing. Is he consistent?? I think his willingness to confront OW at the rest home where your aunt was staying says a lot about how much he is willing to do to repair your M and for you to know that you are the most important thing in his life. He showed you, in front of a lot of people, that he can and will put himself in an uncomfortable position in support of you. Does that make sense??
Don't get me wrong....I completely understand how you want the truth, the whole truth. But the sad fact is, that he really may not remember all the details. Was there another OW? What will you do if there was?? Have you told him that that would be the end for any further attempts to R? If so, than I can understand why he would be reluctant to tell you. Maybe you need to reassure him that no matter what he says you will not act rashly, or lash out at him, but take into careful consideration his current behavior and attitude. You've already learned that you can't change the past, but as his wife, you deserve to know where his head is at too.
I don't know if I helped at all. I've been kinda rambling here.
[This message edited by strongish at 7:03 AM, March 22nd (Tuesday)]
I have to disagree, sort of.
Men do think of these things the way you women do. I think most BSs think alike. It is the WS who does not think the way you do. My WW views all of this just like all these WHs do. I don't remember and I don't know is her mantra too. She used the old line of "you know all you need to know." Maybe that is true, but I would like to be the judge of that.
I do hope there are several cute court officers in court for you Allgood.
The space key onmy computeris screwed up. I am gettingtired of going back and correcting these typos. It makes forsomeweirdreading.
So, it sounds to me like you believe his remorse and his amends are helpful to you but you're scared. Of course you're scared!
Now I have to quote a couple of Aussie's to you: Marlin and Dorie from Finding Nemo: Dorie " He says it's time to let go!" Marlin "How do you know nothing bad is going to happen?" Dory "I DON'T!"
If he's not getting it in some way and you think there is a hoop you could ask him to jump through that will spark that realization - then ask for more. If you think he does get it, then let go and let time and his efforts work their magic.
My W and I just had a pretty emotional discussion. While she was getting ready for work, she ask me how I was doing? So I told her. Some hurtful things were said.
For some time now, and I have mentioned it a few times here, that my need for the love of physical touch could end our marriage.
She never initiates anything with me in a way that it has truly meant something to me deep in my soul. She has initiated, but it has always been after my request. It might compare to you saying, “I need flowers to make me feel good”. The very next day, you get flowers but that did do it. So you wait for the next time flowers come your way looking for a passion this time. The flowers never come. So, the same cycle happens again. I ask, I it comes with no real meaning to me. This has been going on for over a year now.
The feelings I have by her never initiating are not good ones. I have tried so hard to be positive about this, patient, kind about it. My issue is not the lack of sex mind you. It is my W’s lack of desire for sex. So you see, she makes the effort, but deep in her soul she is not attracted to me in a physical way. She verbal says I am good looking and she says I am attractive in so many different ways and that is what she love so much about me. Am I expecting too much to want a marriage where both are at peace with this? Is this really about sex? My meaning of love?
She says when we get going, it’s good most every time. My W has gone to the Doctor to discuss her lack of desire and her gynecologist says she is healthy. She does take birth control and that could be part of it but the benefit for other reasons she does not want her to get off.
It brings me to my looking hard at myself. I try hard to, and have taken, a position of making every attempt to be more romantic. Of course it always leads to the “happy ending”. But I never get reciprocity. The thoughts are so negative.
In our conversation this morning, she says she could go sexless and be happy about it. She says that she cannot give me what I am seeking. I realize that feelings are what they are. She says maybe we should try a separation and see if I can somehow get the feeling I seek. I know a separation won’t bring us together. A separation will be my moving on with someone new in the search of fulfilling my wants and desires. This all hurts because how could our talk even go to this place. It sucks.
I recently finished a book called Reclaiming Your Sexual Self. Some facts they say is that 1/3 of all woman have this feeling my W has. It describes my W being “out of balance.” In some ways, my relationship is coercive sex.
I cannot help to think that in a way, the choices my W has made in life have hurt her mental health is so many ways.
Who would my W be if she had the power to say, “I don’t want to move to Indiana, I want to be close to my mom, dad and brothers”? Who would my W be had she said “NO” to the abortion, “NO” to that desire sex that first few years in our marriage, “NO” to her boss? Would she be a healthy woman then?
Who am I to fight for this?
Yep, I hurt. My blessing are so good yet this one aspect is not complete.
If I could only be this dog...
[This message edited by trynhard at 9:27 AM, March 22nd (Tuesday)]
Do you think that the birth control is causing some of this? Can she see if another kind of birth control will make things different but still give her the other benefits?
My W has never really had a problem inititing with me. When she went into menopause there was a drop off in desire. She seems to have overcome this problem though. Could this be a premenopause issue with your W?
Is this a "dealbreaker" for you? Ireally think a seperation for this reason is arecipe for disaster.
Hang in there.
Hugs to the tribe.
Look for a PM from me later today. In the meantime, I've said some things to ats on a similar topic on various threads. I'm not sure where the threads are now, but one was started by ats in either the General or Recon forum. Might help.
I will say this: I know it hurts you. And I understand your FWW's POV. Bottom line is, for me, I had to get over myself and start viewing sex differently than I had always viewed it, and I had to make a concerted effort to make it a part of my thinking. (Thinking + action.)
As I said, look for a PM later.